Bright Young Things discussion
Chit Chat
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How do we stimulate more discussion and debate on BYT?
Connie wrote: "I've seen some other groups have a themed read every few months. The nominations would have to fit the theme of the month such as a mystery, or set during a war, or science fiction, or set in the 1..."Have we ever tried a group read as Connie suggests but where members can read, for example, any detective fiction book from the 1940s, or any book about the Home Front during WW2.
Ruth wrote: "Connie wrote: "I've seen some other groups have a themed read every few months. The nominations would have to fit the theme of the month such as a mystery, or set during a war, or science fiction, ..."We've had several year long challenge reads - WWI, Nobel Prize Winners, the British Empire. Many nominations and votes.
Ruth wrote: "Connie wrote: "I've seen some other groups have a themed read every few months. The nominations would have to fit the theme of the month such as a mystery, or set during a war, or science fiction, ..."Ruth, we would nomination books from one genre or subject, then vote on one book for the group to read. We would not be reading different books.
Dawn was mentioning reading a few books that were lighter or happier, and it sounded like a good idea to several people. The idea is to sometimes nominate books in a lighter genre or subject, and other times choose heavier subjects. For example, it was a delight to read Laurie Lee's travel books because they were both light and interesting. One month we could have travel as a theme, the group could nominate several travel books, then vote on one for the group to read.
The theme idea would not have to be used every month, just occasionally to get people thinking about different genres. If we've read a bunch of historical books in a row, the moderator could have us nominate books on something different just to shake things up.
I personally read in lots of different genres and settings all the time, and think it adds to the fun of reading.
Jan C wrote: "Ruth wrote: "Connie wrote: "I've seen some other groups have a themed read every few months. The nominations would have to fit the theme of the month such as a mystery, or set during a war, or scie..."The year long challenges looked like fun. I just joined the group this year, but it looked like you chose some wonderful books.
I like Connie's idea of an occasional themed read where we nominate books with a particular theme but then vote and read one winning book. Ruth's idea of having a theme and then everyone reading whatever they want in that theme sounds intriguing too--wouldn't want to do it often, but as an occasional thing, it could give us all ideas about a variety of books.
Oh, I didn't realize that Ruth was suggesting a different theme idea. I've seen that done with groups devoted to World War I or II to give the other members ideas for their next book. Good idea, Ruth.
Some of the cozy crime groups do it as well with any book which involves pets, bookshops, baking etc. It helps to introduce a variety of new authors, talk about how the same subject is tackled by different writers, and also which approach different group members prefer etc.
Barbara wrote: "Ruth's idea of having a theme and then everyone reading whatever they want in that theme sounds intriguing too--wouldn't want to do it often, but as an occasional thing, it could give us all ideas about a variety of books."Ruth wrote: "Some of the cozy crime groups do it as well with any book which involves pets, bookshops, baking etc. It helps to introduce a variety of new authors, talk about how the same subject is tackled by different writers, and also which approach different group members prefer etc."
I'd be up for this idea too Barbara. As Ruth suggests, it should result in a very interesting discussion about different approaches and, of course, participants end up reading books they are attracted to which means everyone would feel enthused about their choice.
We actually did something similar with the Lusitania and Lord Haw Haw discussions.
How could we make it happen?
What themes would people be interested in discussing?
Should we try it in addition to the regular discussion, or instead of the regular discussion?
Nigeyb wrote: "What themes would people be interested in discussing?Should we try it in addition to the regular discussion, or instead of the regular discussion? ..."
Because it's something that could be ongoing for quite a long period of time, I think you could try it in addition to start with and see how it goes.
Two topics I can think of off the top of my head that I'd be interested in exploring are - the Mitfords, and the changing relationships between servants and masters in the first half of the twentieth century (or some other big social upheaval like class).
Several members have done it with non-fiction, but more as a response to the winning book not being readily available to everyone. I think it is a good idea to continue that, as it means more people can join the discussion.The annual challenges are themed as well, when we have them.
I'm not sure how well it would work with fiction, but see no harm in giving it a try one month and then carrying on if it is popular.
Nigeyb - if any family would be good to read about in a series it would definitely be the Mitfords ! HA! They have enough to keep you going on for years . I just wonder how those two parents conceived all of those girls and then not realize how strange that household would become ??? To little Testosterone for one home and those girls must have been wild ! I still can't get over the one having the heart set on Hitler ! A crazy time !
So it sounds as though we should give it a go one month? How about October? A themed non-fiction read and a themed fiction read?Ruth's suggestions (The Mitfords / Changing relationships between servants and their employers )
We do of course have this thread on the Mitfords (along with a few others)...
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
A few more ideas...
A specific author
A specific year or era
A specific city, region or country
+
Spying
Crime and punishment
the Great Depression
Women's suffrage
War and peace
Nazism
Spiritualism
I could go on all day but I'll leave it there for now
I love Ruth's ideas for themes, especially the Mitfords. Nigeyb's ideas are great too. I just read a few books set around WWI so I would enjoy going forward in time to the 1920s. I do want to read about the history of the time, but also want to read about the arts.Ideas for themes (arts and culture 1920s):
The Flappers
The Jazz Age
The Murphys and their friends (the Fitzgeralds, the Hemingways,etc)
The Paris art scene
Writers in Paris
Sylvia Beach, Shakespeare and Company Bookstore
The Harlem Renaissance
Individual British authors
Bright Young Things
Golden Age of Detective Fiction
Fiction and non-fiction depicting the Depression
Hi Everyone!I have been shamed into crawling out from under my stone and throwing off my title of official lurker!! I've been following this thread with interest as this problem seems to happen to quite a lot of groups. I think the 1000 plus members are not really there anymore its probably down to people deciding not to check in on activity and subsequently losing interest but forgetting to cancel their membership. However there are probably still people just like me who check the threads but are very naughty and don't contribute! In my case, I still read the monthly choices occasionally but I am not really confident in writing reviews and feel that my comments don't really add any depth to the conversation. That said I have come up with some ideas which I hope you don't mind me sharing and I apologise if they have been mentioned before!
It might be an idea if one month the books chosen are perhaps more well known and easy to get hold of. For example Hemmingway or Scott Fitzgerald. Books that potential new members may easily identify the period with.
Group/substance reads I personally enjoy as I like the idea of breaking up into chunks with a few questions thrown in at each stage. the downside is that someone has to take charge of this.
Themes are pretty good particularly if there is a lot of material on them eg Agatha Christie or the Mitfords are two that spring to mind but Im sure there's loads more.
I seem to remember the group did reading challenges now and again which were always fun. I like the idea of set questions but again it needs someone to source/think them up.
Hope this makes some sort of sense!
Thanks for your suggestions Julie, and great that you have emerged from the shadows. Please do post a bit more. All views are equally valid and all discussions are enriched by a range of different opinions and views. Even if it's something as simple as I like it, or I don't like it.
I was mulling over how, along with The Diary of a Young Girl, there are numerous classic books from our era that we don't have discussion threads for. A timely reminder, if any were needed, of just how rich the first half of the 20th century was for classic literature.Perhaps we should have an annual challenge to read (or reread) say six classic books that we have yet to discuss together?
There is already a suggestion that we bias the monthly nominations towards more popular books, so we could broaden that to include acknowledged classics.
^ That's a good idea Val - and one I agree withMy suggestion was - in addition to nominating popular classics every month - that a classic book challenge could be a way of speeding up the process. I was also reflecting on how, for September, I am not particularly drawn to a reread of The Diary of a Young Girl, but also recognise we should have a thread on it.
There are a surprising number of glaring omissions. Here's three more I recently noticed...
The Great Gatsby
The Hobbit
Gone with the Wind
and doubtless there are many, many more
Those three are in the 'bestsellers' list and will all be nominated eventually.
That's true Val. Although, as much as I love The Great Gatsby, I would prefer to read something new and not a book I have already read multiple times. That said, if that's what it takes to get latent or new members engaged and active with the group then it would be worth it.
Nigey, a classic book challenge is a great idea! I am shocked that we've never read/discussed Gatsby!!! Maybe because it's TOO familiar and we've all read it....
We did sort of discuss it, didn't we, by discussing a book about it? Or am I misremembering?
We discussed it a bit during our read of Careless People: Murder, Mayhem, and the Invention of The Great Gatsby. I used Careless People as an opportunity to re-read Gatsby, so it really seemed as though we'd had Gatsby as a group read.
Ah yes, that's the one I was thinking of - thanks, Barbara. I reread Gatsby then too.
I didn't reread Gatsby then. I read Maureen Corrigan's book about her love for Gatsby, So We Read On: How The Great Gatsby Came to Be and Why It Endures. I have probably read Gatsby about 5-7 times by now. I reread it about once a decade.
A classics challenge sounds like a good idea.
I would be up for a classics challenge as well as I'd probably own more of those and then would be more likely to read them. I do think it would be nice, though, if more were nominated for monthly reads as well.
Mod
I agree that a challenge could be fun, but also that it might spur more conversations if they came up as monthly reads.
Mod
Nigeyb wrote: "I'm glad you're reading this book, and posting a few comments Judy. I thought this one (Midnight at the Pera Palace: The Birth of Modern Istanbul) would stimulate a bit more interest and participation (as I did with The Good Soldier Švejk)."Judy wrote: "Unfortunately I think both books (September 2016’s fiction and non fiction choices, The Good Soldier Švejk and Midnight at the Pera Palace: The Birth of Modern Istanbul) are a bit difficult for some people to get hold of, Nigeyb, so that might have affected the discussion.
I was able to get this book from the library but not The Good Soldier Švejk. I did try an audiobook sample of that but it didn't really appeal to me (though of course that might have changed if I'd stuck with it), so I was reluctant to buy a copy. "
Thanks Judy. I am sure you’re right however it was more of a general point which we’ve probably done to death on this thread already. I’d also add that you always make an effort to engage and I really enjoy your contributions.
I’ll be honest, most months, and especially when one of my choices wins, I am really keen to have an interesting discussion about the book. Indeed I often set up a hot read when my choices don’t win but when a few people have expressed some enthusiasm. However the reality is that whilst there is usually a lot of engagement during the nomination and voting process this rarely follows through into the discussions. This was most dramatically illustrated in 2014 when we did the WW1 reading challenge - the enthusiasm during the nominations process was really impressive but this just did not feed through into most of the discussions.
I’m gradually coming to the conclusion that it is in the nature of online groups - where there is no face to face interaction there is less commitment. That’s not a criticism, we all have busy lives with so much competing for our attention. However, I do wonder if I am more unusual in craving a good discussion as much as an interesting and rewarding reading experience from this group. I’ve concluded that it is probably unrealistic to expect that from an online group. What do others think?
I'm very keen to participate in a good discussion in the groups I'm in but I tend to be a bit nervous of initiating discussions because I lack confidence to lead them, so wait for someone else to start in the hope I can join in.In one of the other groups I'm in - Reading the Detectives - discussions do seem to get off the ground a bit more easily and I'm wondering if that's also a confidence issue. Detective fiction can be discussed on many levels and I think it's easier to pitch in with a fairly basic subjective statement about which characters you like or whether you solved the mystery and build from there.
That's very interesting Ruth. I generally assume that the relative anonymity of the internet would increase confidence and it hadn't occurred to me that anyone might be feeling shy or reticent despite wanting to dive in and make a point. Thanks.
Mod
In my experience with group reads, especially if there are only a few participants, I have seen more active discussions when we are all reading at about the same pace. Perhaps that is something we could try? Could the nominators of the winning books set up a general reading schedule at the beginning of the month once I post the opening thread? What do you all think?
Yes it's interesting isn't it that even though I don't actually 'know' any of you, I'm still a bit wary of making a fool of myself by somehow saying the wrong thing, showing my ignorance or not expressing myself very well.I wonder if anyone else feels the same way? Or indeed if there are other reasons why they feel reluctant to contribute.
Jennifer W wrote: "In my experience with group reads, especially if there are only a few participants, I have seen more active discussions when we are all reading at about the same pace. Perhaps that is something we could try?"I suspect you’re right Jennifer, that reading at the same pace stimulates more discussion. That said, I think I would find it hard to ration my reading, and stick to a specific timetable but if others are keen then I'm prepared to give it a try.
Jennifer W wrote: "Could the nominators of the winning books set up a general reading schedule at the beginning of the month once I post the opening thread? What do you all think?"
I mention elsewhere that I think that nominators should play a much more active role in championing a book and stimulating discussion. I know some people feel this might deter people from nominating but I feel strongly that if you nominate a book, and it wins, you should actively promote discussion. I think we’re quite some way from that though having noticed that there have been discussions where the successful nominator barely participates and sometimes doesn’t participate at all.
Back to your question, if I nominated a winning book then I would be willing to set up a general reading schedule - and also commit to championing debate and discussion.
I could do this with “Huxley in Hollywood” which we will be discussing in November 2016, the first of my nominations to win a poll since July 2016.
Ruth wrote: "I wonder if anyone else feels the same way? Or indeed if there are other reasons why they feel reluctant to contribute."
Me too. Hopefully BYTers will feel confident enought to express an opinion on this thread!
Mod
Ruth wrote: "Yes it's interesting isn't it that even though I don't actually 'know' any of you, I'm still a bit wary of making a fool of myself by somehow saying the wrong thing, showing my ignorance or not exp..."I have felt this way myself sometimes too. Sometimes I find it difficult to come up with a question that really addresses what I'm thinking or feeling about a book.
I feel kind of bad about temporarily abandoning this months read "Good Soldier Svejk". A book I had on hold at the library came in and I had a limited amount of time to read it because there were more holds on it. Then I got sick for a few days and wasn't reading anything. I've just gotten back to it and now the month is almost over. I'm kind of struggling with it now though. It's starting to seem a little samey. I think it may be a book I tackle in smaller doses in between other reads. Could definitely see it as a movie with Peter Sellers though.
Lynaia wrote: "I've just gotten back to The Good Soldier Švejk and now the month is almost over. I'm kind of struggling with it now though. It's starting to seem a little samey. I think it may be a book I tackle in smaller doses in between other reads. Could definitely see it as a movie with Peter Sellers though."At least you tried it Lynaia. I would also encourage to put a similar posting on the thread. There may be others who are reading it but feel reluctant to be critical of the book? Either way, all opinions are valid, and if you find it samey then you should express that view.
I guess a common syndrome at GR is that we read too many books. It is hard to be in a candy shop without sampling all the goods. I am still (after years of reading) still working on focused reads. At the same time I enjoy reading several volumes simultaneously as the they tend to simmer in my mind. I see new connections and relationships within them so it allows me to write about them in a more creative fashion (I blog privately to illuminate the books I read - it is great fun). BYT is definitely a niche with its focus on a very brief time period. Could that be an issue? Are people more drawn to the latest trendy novels? Reading the Great Books in the western canon? I suspect that people that joined the group in the first place has a special interest in the early part of the 20th century?
I know I am very new here, but I have to admit that members such as Nigeyb and others definitely spark enthusiasm and interest in reading and discussing the works selected for the month.
I think it's important to read a big chunk of the book, maybe at least 75 pages, before saying anything negative about it. There are lots of books that start out slow, but have marvelous characters that take a while to appreciate. If people make negative comments early on, even if they love it later, then other people won't bother ordering the book from the library or the bookstore. There will only be a handful of people reading a book, and it's hard to get a discussion going with so few people.
I did pass on The Good Soldier Švejk. It didn't interest me that much and was either more than I wanted to pay or was too difficult for me to find. Not sure I would be able to keep to a dedicated schedule. In the last book that I had that was selected, the one about the bohemian women in Greenwich Village and their friends, I did try to be more active in the discussion as it was going on. But I suppose if someone set one up, then I would give it a shot.
I don't personally know other people in the group, I don't know if the same is true for everyone else, so I'm not usually that concerned about what everyone thinks of me. This also may be due to age. Younger people tend to be more concerned about this kind of thing. Past 60, it is just not worth worrying about.
I will usually not give up on a book before page 50 (it used to be 100 but there were some books I didn't want to stick with that long). A recent one I was going to give up on was the one about the walk by Laurie Lee but I've gone back to it off and on and will probably finish it one day. In case I do, I know that I can always find the thread and pop off about it.
This is a subject that seems to pop up every now and again. And we still don't know the answer. So I guess we should keep kicking the subject around.
I think we've had some quite successful recent discussions in the group, but participation does vary - I suspect that most groups might see a drop-off over the summer, so maybe things will pick up a bit now that it is autumn in the UK and US? I'll admit I'm not a big fan of reading schedules, but I'm happy to give it a try if others would like, and will definitely try to encourage discussion of Tender is the Night, which I nominated.
Oh gosh, so many things to try and touch on.-I wonder if the whole Hot Reads things is actually hurting the group reads. People might not make as strong a case for a book or try and find it as much if they know that they can just set up a Hot Reads thread for whichever book. That, presumably, then takes at least a couple people out of the actual group read thread. And not to say I don't like the Hot Reads - some of them are great - I just wonder if it's an aspect of the problem we're having. (Additionally, even the Hot Read I set up stalled because I lost a bit of interest in the book. I'm sure I'll get back to it, but it's not a priority right now.)
- I don't think we can ignore the fact that life and other factors can contribute to whether or not a book is read also. Some times I'll be really interested in a book, but something will come up in my personal life that just makes it difficult to read it. Or I'll try reading it and just won't be interested, or will lose interest (this happens to me an awful lot, and there are just too many books to read to keep trying on something that isn't holding my attention). Personally these were the cases for me with the WWI challenge and a few books I've nominated that have won. Back in 2012 both my nominations won for the same month, and then I wound up moving at the same time and I wasn't able to participate. And a few months ago my nomination won but I just couldn't get into the book. With the WWI, other things just captured my interest better at the time; the WWI books are still ones I plan to read but just haven't yet (I wonder if some of this is also due to my location; in the US we're still not into the 100th anniversary and so I wonder if that's played a part consciously or unconsciously).
- I do think we're all in this or other groups for different reasons. I joined this group because I had found Evelyn Waugh and wanted to read more like him. This group is great for that! I think the group might me a bit broad for any detailed discussions though. I used to be part of a group for just one author (that's now no longer) and that helped keep things focused. I'm kind of thinking the opposite of Haaze; I think our date range and focus is so large and all encompassing that we're all here for different things. I'm really only interested in between the wars, and more non-fiction than fiction, and so when things out of that area are read, I'm so much more less likely to participate.
- I'm also one who doesn't want to look stupid with a comment, even with the relative anonymity of the internet and goodreads generally. I got enough of that in school, that I really don't want to go back to it when this is something I participate in for fun. I also feel like I just don't always have something deep to say. I'm reading A Room With a View right now for October, but other than that I'm really liking it, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to say much more. I think the Diana Mosley book will be easier to comment about, personally, just because there's so much more going on and her whole evolution is interesting.
- On a bit more of a negative note... I think there are a few people that tend to dominate conversations and nominations and that really turns me off from participating. I really don't want to name names of people who bother me in this way, but I think it's important to put out there that it happens. Maybe this is why I keep quieter too; I don't want to be the person that bothers other people.
A super long post to say, in short, that I really don't know what we can do or if there's anything we can do, but there are a lot of factors to consider...
I don't really like reading schedules either because then I feel like I'm in school again. Also, when I'm listening to a book or reading before bed, I'm not always going to be making notes of what happens where so that I could comment in the appropriate place. If others think it could help, I might try it, but I'm not super into the idea...
Sorry this was so long. I guess I do have things to say, just not always about the group reads, lol. :)
Bronwyn wrote: "Oh gosh, so many things to try and touch on.-I wonder if the whole Hot Reads things is actually hurting the group reads. People might not make as strong a case for a book or try and find it as mu..."
I agree with much of this comment, and I'd like to second the bit at the end about a vocal minority that dominates. To be absolutely clear, I think everyone is motivated by pure enthusiasm and goodwill, and everybody here is perfectly nice and welcoming, but in the aggregate it can kind of make a person feel less of a sense of really belonging to the group, I think.
On the broad versus narrow thing, I agree, though my interests are sort of the opposite of Bronwen's: I am really only interested in fiction from the period, and will probably never really get into a non-fiction read. (I'm also really not into historical fiction set in the period; only literature that was actually produced during.) I don't think this is necessarily a problem with the group, but just worth noting as a means of setting expectations for any given read: each book may have fewer readers because members have their own interests.
Hot reads, I think Bronwen may well have a point. I've seen this kind of side reads thing work in other groups, but I think they already have a much broader participation in their regular reads. I'm not sure how big this group actually is, but it has a sort of smallish feel, participation-wise, and side reads may indeed dilute a bit.
The 'hot books' idea is not a bad one, in theory it should keep any members who can't get hold of the winning book involved instead of having to miss out on that month's discussions. We have had quite a lot of these extra books though and it might be better if we just had a few now and then.
Bronwyn wrote: "Oh gosh, so many things to try and touch on.-I wonder if the whole Hot Reads things is actually hurting the group reads. People might not make as strong a case for a book or try and find it as mu..."
Wow, Bronwyn, get out of my head! Especially not wanting to look stupid with a comment and the dominant minority. I also balk at reading on a schedule (which is why I've never joined a face-to-face book group).
I do enjoy the comments of others and often pick up interesting information and ideas for new reading from the group.
As a relative newcomer I don't have a sense of how active the group has been over the years. Is the drop in participation a recent development?
Mod
I think it brings up the question I asked a bit ago about what do we mean by a good discussion? Would we like rip-roaring debates or would we like quieter conversations? I think there is room for both. And other options in between as well. I personally would love to see more people participate. Seeing so many people post their concerns about looking stupid is a bit of a surprise to me! I thank you for your bravery and honesty. I am not sure how to make you feel more comfortable about posting, but I think any of the members of this group would love to hear your opinions.
Perhaps I can ask some of our more vocal and assertive members to tone it down a bit. I'm not asking anyone to not post or comment, but just to make space for those who are not as certain about commenting. I think those of us (and yes, I include myself) who post regularly are very sure of our opinions and we may be inadvertantly closing down the conversation for others.
However, to those of you who don't post as often, I would encourage you to take the chance! I genuinely believe that the more talkative members really love a good conversation about a good book and would welcome more input.
Finally, if we're not reading the books that appeal to you, please nominate some that do! Nominations for December group reads will open up at the end of the week!
This is an interesting topic and I see it happen in other groups over time. I think as time goes by group dynamics constantly change. People don't post for a whole host of reasons - leaving the group, lack of interest, no confidence, life in general just getting in the way of good books. As I mentioned a while back, there are lots of people who just lurk around the edges of groups reading posts and not necessarily feeling the urge to comment. I know I have done that in the past, trying to find the best moment to put my comments in and invariably not bothering in the end. It's a tricky thing to solve when the discussions are down to a regular core of 6/8 posters. Maybe its time to put forward a few more well known titles which might draw people out of the shadows. From experience, it's always quite hard when you don't feel confident to dip into the discussion. Perhaps a themed read might help?
Bright Young Things
Books mentioned in this topic
Zelda: a Biography (other topics)We Two: Victoria and Albert: Rulers, Partners, Rivals (other topics)
Zelda (other topics)
Tender Is the Night (other topics)
Huxley in Hollywood (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Nancy Milford (other topics)Nancy Milford (other topics)
Lillian Hellman (other topics)
Laurie Lee (other topics)
Maureen Corrigan (other topics)
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I always check to see which books are available at the library, or can be bought as inexpensive used books, before voting on the monthly read. People should realize that their nomination might not be chosen, even if it's a good book, just because of availability. Of course, the availability is different in different countries. Buddy reads are great for books that have limited availability.