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A Wrinkle in Time: June 2016
message 51:
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Heather(Gibby)
(new)
Jun 18, 2016 05:52AM
I finished the book this morning, I do wish I had read it when I was young, I think I would have appreciated it more. It became a bit too preachy for me in the end, but I am glad to strike another book off my TBR list.
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Cheryl wrote: "plz remind me who the man with the red eyes is..."He's the guy at CENTRAL Central Intelligence, (view spoiler).
Mod
I was waiting for someone to mention that, lol. I kept quiet given all the gushing (or at least enjoyment) over the book so far and I didnt want to spoil the happy vibes because I am a coward..hehe.
I pretty much said exactly the same thing in my review where I knew the 12 year old me would have loved it. But it was indeed so overly preachy. My other problem with it was that it was unsatisfactorily incomplete. Sure there is a story arc but at least other chronicles such as Narnia, Potter etc completes a main sub story. It didnt feel this one did...though its been a couple of years since I read it, I cant be confident my argument still holds. Narnia books were also pretty preachy but I enjoyed them. I cant pinpoint why I can accept the preachiness of the Narnia books and not Twinkle in Time...probably down to the narrative styles.
Having said all that, this was a memorable book for at least one thing, its depiction of Darkness...man, I recall I was getting shivers down as those kids ventured further into this dark world. It was superbly done.
These were my full thoughts on the book, albeit a couple of years ago:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
For those of you who felt it was preachy, preachy about what? I usually associate that adjective with some kind of moralistic, teaching-a-lesson attitude, but I don't recall anything like that in this book. Unless you mean the idea about fighting evil? In which case I think I would argue that all fantasy is essentially about good vs evil, light vs darkness, isn't it?
Mod
Interesting. I don't recall any overtly religious elements to the book.
Christian religious? I'm an atheist, but none were obvious to me....
Mod
I took this back to the library, so I can't exact quote, but certainly near the end there was reference to faith in God saving mankind was there not?
Ok, I just checked, and there is a quotation there that talks about God... but there are a number of different quotations in the book... I always understood them to be meant to be universal wise words....
I agree with Cheryl. There are a few references to God in the book but I wouldn't consider it preachy.
It just caught me off guard at the end of the book, because up to then it had been more of an adventure.
Mod
Did everyone feel the book had enough of a sub story? My other critique was that although this is clearly the beginning of a story arc, it didnt feel anywhere enough of at least a sub story as with other story arc book series.
Well, it was many years after I read it for the first (and second, possibly third) time before I even realized there were sequels. To me it seemed sufficient unto itself. Interesting how perceptions vary.... Tej, did you mean to say you first read this as an adult?
Mod
Perceptions always vary indeed but not just that, perceptions can also be easily influenced by ones mood at time of reading, tolerance for certain elements that wouldn't be a big deal to others, expectations and of others' opinions that can sway one's focus on certain elements of a book more than other elements.
For instance Tom's Midnight, I have loved all my life with multiple readings but when you read it, Cheryl, I recall your irritance for Tom, which on thinking about it, you were absolutely right! Tom is not a boy to sympathise with much of time and that, I guess, a justifiable deal breaker in enjoying the novel! So that important element clearly affected your enjoyment while Tom was a person I could relate to...ie a selfish spoil brat, lol.
In Twinkle, some of you enjoyed the wise young child as being the favourite but I recall not liking him. I couldnt accept a child being THAT wise...though narratively, was that explained? I cant remember. But I know I didnt like him much. Probably out of jealousy and the fact that I needed special schooling when I was a dumb child. But I really like the older boy and girl protagonists whom felt like vintage protagonists of a good old fashioned children's yarn.
So it seems with me, in this instance with Twinkle that the "preaching" for want of a better word, amplified for me but seemingly invisible to other readers.
I think I might know why, in my case at least. I have a sensitive radar for religious teachings and allegories in novels...because I love that in many novels. I am not a Christian but I absolutely love the morals and teaching of Christianity and other religions as narrative morals...but it most be done right. In Harry Potter, it was invisible until the last book in the series that brought the whole series into a beautifully realised religious context and allegory of elements in the bible. It was subtle yet vivid once reflecting on the whole series. But I pick up on those things where others might not...others will pick up on other details that I dont register or overlook.
Narnia books is a strange beast. Staples was blatantly Christianising the novels yet I loved them as a child, I knew then its allegorical meaning and who Aslan really was and loved the books for it but I think its wonderful narrative flair plays a big part in why I enjoy Narnia books and not so much Twinkle. Actually, I take some of that back, I did rather dislike the last Narnia book for its overbearing biblical message.
So in Twinkle, I picked up a lot of Christian allegories and I love that but then I recall it suddenly felt forced and quite saccharine...it just my heightened sensitivity, I guess for all above reasons :)
Perhaps as you suspect, Cheryl, this is where reading the books as a child first plays a part in our appreciation of a book as opposed to reading it first as an adult. I read Narnia books as am innocent child, Twinkle as an old fuddy duddy adult ;)
Yet, I dont think in my case, reading a childrens book as a child will affect how good I think a children's book is. Good childrens books for me are those that captures the inner child in us adults like Harry Potter, Dark Materials, Time Hunters, Time at the Top to name a few that I read recently for the first time as an adult.
Heather(Gibby) wrote: "I took this back to the library, so I can't exact quote, but certainly near the end there was reference to faith in God saving mankind was there not?"Yes, l'Engle seasons-- doesn't baste!-- the mysterious women with Christianity. This takes form in their occasional quotations of the Epistles of the New Testament. I seem to recall Dad reels off a quote or two, also.
I think this device of l'Engle's certainly is *not* evangelism or an attempt to proselytize. Rather, I think it is appropriate to the plot and subtle.
The quotes really cover the whole spectrum: poetry, philosophy, religion, literature, etc. Given how young I was when I first read the book. it was a great introduction to many authors I had never heard of at the time.
Mod
Charles Wallace is 5 or 6 years old, yes.Last weekend I had the following conversation with my 11-year-old nephew:
Him: "Have you heard of the book a wrinkle in time?"
Me: "Oh yes! It's wonderful!! Have you read it?"
Him: "No..."
Me: "How did you hear about it?"
Him (with a long-suffering air): "Because everybody at school keep telling me what a great book it is and asking me if I've read it."
Heh. So I think I'll send him a copy :)
I wonder if there are any annotated or illustrated editions, like Tomi Ungerer's Heidi: The Classic Novel, The Annotated Alice: The Definitive Edition or The Annotated Phantom Tollbooth. I think there's more subtlety to be delved for than we each are explicitly seeing... otherwise it seems unlikely that readers nowadays would still be enjoying it so much.
I was never entrances with that chapter. I mean, cuddles are a good thing, and can be scientifically analyzed. But beyond that, well, I think the author is challenging us to think - to consider her favorite point of view, but also to think about/ discuss others.I, personally, would prefer no religion in the world, prefer everyone to have a logical and scientific mind. But second-best, certainly, would be a world where ppl of faith and atheists could fully respect each others' perspectives. I suspect the author would choose the reverse them, that's all. I *don't* think she's evangelizing to her own faith.
Mod
Or that we'd all look similar with a similar culture and similar faith or lack thereof. Don't get me wrong; I like differences. I prefer a world of variety. Unfortunately, it's our differences that seem to make the most problems in this world since we can't all seem to agree to disagree and can't seem to ignore differences in skin color, life choices, or beliefs. It would be nice if we all could, but we're sadly not that evolved yet.
Cheryl wrote: "I wonder if there are any annotated or illustrated editions, ..."I did find this: A Wrinkle in Time: The Graphic Novel which looks ok.
Amy wrote: "Join us for our next group read: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/..."Are we done with this one already? Not much has been said about it!
What did you think of their (brief!) visit to 2D land?
Cheryl wrote: "I did find this: A Wrinkle in Time: The Graphic Novel which looks ok."That looks like a pretty good adaptation -- they stuck very close to the book, from what I can see in the preview.
Michele wrote: "What did you think of their (brief!) visit to 2D land?"I was glad it was brief! That part, iirc, did make me a bit anxious. The author has a way of making the most ridiculous things seem plausible.
Went to the store to get a copy and they didn't have it so i went home and started looking for a copy on amazon. just before i order I see it sitting on my shelf... how did this happen?
Mod
Obviously by tesseract.
Amy wrote: "Obviously by tesseract. "*chortle*
Cheryl wrote: "I was glad it was brief! That part, iirc, did make me a bit anxious. The author has a way of making the most ridiculous things seem plausible..."It also made me think of Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions.
Good point. *Flatland* is a fun book; I loved it when I was a teen.
Tej wrote: "Heather(Gibby) wrote: "I finished the book this morning, I do wish I had read it when I was young, I think I would have appreciated it more. It became a bit too preachy for me in the end, but I am ..."Well, apparently Jerry Falwell didn't think the book was preachy enough, and challenged it because of the "witches" use of "magic." I'll have to look for details / evidence re' that rumor when I have a chance....
Mod
Funny. They weren't billed as witches in the book, and the magic was science. Funny how we've come full circle with science being seen as magic. Frankly, some of the religious ideas I've heard lately sound more like magic to me.
The book felt weirdly religious to me. Suddenly, toward the end, there are Bible verses where they don't even fit. At the very least, she could have established from the beginning that the character was a religious character before having them quote Bible verses. It just sticks out like a sore thumb the way it's presented.
As for the reason this book has been banned, here are several citations:
*Challenged at the Polk City, Fla. Elementary School under allegations that the story promotes witchcraft, crystal balls, and demons. (1985)
*Challenged in the Anniston Ala. schools under objection to the book’s use of the name of Jesus Christ in relations to other artists, philosophers, scientists, and religious leaders (1990)
*Frequently challenged for “undermining religious beliefs.”
*Ranked no. 22 in the ALA’s 100 most banned books for 1990-2000.
(Source: http://www.unboundworlds.com/2008/10/...)
Apparently, Jerry Fallwell "accuse[d] the book of containing offensive language, and argue[d] that it undermines religious beliefs and challenges their idea of God." (Source: http://world.edu/banned-books-awarene...)
Mod
Just ... NO on all of those! What do others think?
I bet they won't even do the voices right. Reese Witherspoon with a creaky gate hinge voice? Oprah Winfrey drawing out her words long and deliberately? Bleh.
IMDB entry: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1620680/f...
Thanks for finding those citations! :head-desk:(I don't watch movies so can't comment on your second post, except to say that images of Reid make her look awfully young, and Meg is having coming-of-age and puberty issues in the novel....)
Mod
Right. I was thinking of someone kind of plain and gawky looking, not someone cute and cherubic. I hope at least she gets some ugly glasses to wear. Or does Disney just think that nerdy doesn't appeal to their audience? If so, they picked the wrong book to try to adapt.
Amy wrote: "At the very least, she could have established from the beginning that the character was a religious character before having them quote Bible verses.."I don't think any of the characters are religious characters. They quote from many different authors and philosophies. I think the point L'Engle is making with all the quotations is that all religions and philosophies share certain core ideas, and that all of them have something useful to offer in how we can think about life, the universe, and our place in it.
I agree; that's what I was trying to say back in msg 61 in June. Thank you for saying it better.Michele, as a point of comparison, how heavy-handed do you find the Christian themes in the Narnia books?
Mod
"We were sent here for something. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose"
and
"The foo]ishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God stronger than men. For ye see your calling brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called, but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty. And base things of the world and things which are despised, hath God chosen. ."
The other literary quotes are more of a light-and-darkness nature rather than a we-were-sent-by-God nature.
As for the Narnia books... When I read them as a very religious child, I didn't have any idea that they were supposed to be Christian allegories, especially since there was a witch included. So, I was surprised in college to learn that C.S. Lewis was well-known for his theological books as well (not in my small town high school library) and that his Narnia series was Christian. Rereading the first 3 or so books as an adult with that in mind, it didn't seem overly obvious that the Narnia series is a Christian allegory. After I read it aloud to my kid as a bedtime story, I might revisit this comment with something different to say.
Yes. I was not raised w/ anything more than a year of Lutheran Sunday School, and so had no idea of Christian messages/ motifs/ themes to look for in my reading. Even had I been raised to memorize Bible quotes, though, I'm not sure I would have seen the theology in Narnia.Anyway, you make an interesting, and relevant, distinction, Amy, about the kinds of messages, the "light-and-darkness nature rather than a we-were-sent-by-God" and I'm going to think on that a bit. I do have to read this book one more time, for my Newbery group discussion, so I'm really thankful for this interesting discussion here.
Mod
And I was raised in an environment of memorizing Bible verses, intensely studying the Bible, and going to church nearly every day of the week, so if I didn't see the theology in Narnia without looking for it, I don't think the average kid would.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts after a Wrinkle in Time re-read. Definitely post back here with light vs. dark, etc. in mind.
Cheryl wrote: "Michele, as a point of comparison, how heavy-handed do you find the Christian themes in the Narnia books? "The Narnia books are WAY more heavy-handed Christian allegory, although they're still great stories and of course if you weren't raised with a Christian background (I wasn't) you probably won't notice them. Aslan sacrificing himself to redeem Edmund and rising from the dead is about as Christian as it gets. (Although, to be fair, the risen sacrifice goes back to ancient Egypt, so in a sense none of it is Christian at all.)
L'Engle's books are more science-based, I think, especially if you read all three in the cycle. Her inclusion of philosophico-religious quotations is, I think, intended more as an acknowledgement of the fact that there are still mysteries out there for which we don't yet have answers, than as an endorsement of any particular worldview.
The battle of light against darkness has many representations; it can be anthropomorphized God vs the Devil, but it can just as easily be seen as rationality vs superstition, or as kindness and courage and constructiveness vs cruelty and cowardice and destructiveness.
Hmm... wow... lots to think about.... I will come back after my read for the Newbery, but fyi that will be a while from now as we only cover 8 years of awards in 1 yr of discussion.. ok, doing the math... see what you got me doing!... Dec 2019, it looks like. ;)Maybe by then you'll have read some of these with your daughter, Amy? I forget how old she is....
Mod
She's 6. I don't think we'll continue with L'Engle, but C.S. Lewis is a contender for the near future.
The Narnia books really are wonderful. The Magician's Nephew is my favorite -- I love how the world is created through song. And Jadis of Charn is just so compelling as a villain! I was always sorry that we never got the full story of her war with her sister and the apocalypse she brought down on her own world. I recently re-read She and Ayesha: The Return of She, and was very much reminded of Jadis.
Mod
Both Wrinkle and Narnia books share religious undertones and even some narrative parallels such as the childrens love for their alarmingly unsafe mentors who sends them off on perilous adventures! I just found that Wrinkle slapped on the preaching too hard towards the end. Narnia books drops the hint throughout its narrative until the very last book when it absolutely thundered down with the religious metaphors...but that was ok as that was the whole series revelation in a way to give the rest of the books further context. JK Rowling did it with her Potter books in very much the same way as the Narnia books where she also slaps it on in the last book giving the rest of the series a different context whose religious hints were very hidden prior to that last book.
Wrinkle on the other hand, I felt exposed its religious intentions from the off, at least from my personal perception which I admit I have a heightened sensitivity to pick up on these things more easily. I personally dont follow any particular religious faith btw but do enjoy their morals playing a part in stories. I just prefer them subtle and not so in your face.
Time Travel
Books mentioned in this topic
The Magician's Nephew (other topics)Ayesha: The Return of She (other topics)
She (other topics)
Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions (other topics)
A Wrinkle in Time: The Graphic Novel (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Robert A. Heinlein (other topics)Madeleine L'Engle (other topics)
