Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion
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Code Name Verity
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Code Name Verity by Elizabeth Wein - VBC June 2016
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Would you have guessed this was a Young Adult novel without being told? And to that question, what makes a book YA?
Erin wrote: "And to get started with something that's not too spoiler-y:Would you have guessed this was a Young Adult novel without being told? And to that question, what makes a book YA?"
REALLY excellent question! I have pondered that a lot. BEEK is sometimes classified as YA. Is it the age of the protagonists? (The young women in this book are 18 or thereabouts. Russell is 15 at the beginning of BEEK. The teens in John Green's heartbreaking YA novel, The Fault in Our Stars, are about 17.) That seems like a pretty arbitrary guideline. as though teenagers cannot have "adult" thoughts and experiences -- and yet they do.
I had two problems with this book, which I basically loved. The first was that I could not believe that the SS interrogator would put up with a lengthy narrative about how his captive met her pilot and the pilot's life before the war. But I was willing to suspend disbelief for the benefit of the telling, which was lovely. My second problem, which I blame on the editor and the author alike, is that Julie, the highly educated and noble narrator of the first section, repeatedly uses "I" where she should say "me" and vice versa. (I listened rather than read, so I can't cite pages.) This made me absolutely CRAZY!! It was the most unrealistic part of the narrative!!
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Oh Lenore, that drives me insane, too! And you hear it all the time, even on the most well-written TV shows, for example. I think for some reason a lot of people think it sounds classier to say "I" even when it doesn't belong!
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Just looking at the dates, we're introduced to Maddie in summer 1938 (when she pulls Dympna out of her crashed plane) and she's supposed to be something like 16 at this point (reference to having left school and found work). Verity's memoir is being written in November 1942, so I'd say both girls are maybe 20 by the end of the book?
I too find the age of the protagonist rather an arbitrary definition for what is YA. In particular because there are books that are shelved general (or genre) fiction that also depict main characters who are younger. Beekeeper's Apprentice being a good example!
I like Patrick Ness's definition: "finding boundaries and crossing them and figuring out when you end, who you are and what shape you are." Though, now I think on it, BEEK kind of fits that definition too.
(I remember this question being huge in the news a couple of years ago. When Slate published this absolutely horrible article about how adults should not be reading YA.)
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Agreed; a little bit of suspension of disbelief there. But I think there's also a bit of explanation in the comparison with his daughter who's a similar age and general description. We don't ever really get to see what SS dude is really thinking, but I got the sense from that last letter from his boss (right before the shift in narrator about midway through the book) that he's maybe feeling guilty or sympathetic toward this young woman and trying to give her a little extra time before she's sent off to even worse torture.
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I read the synopsis to this and it sounded pretty depressing, but the narrative style made me laugh. I mean, really, I felt horrible chuckling at the way she describes her torture.
As far as it being a YA, I've gotten into numerous discussions about what makes a YA. As far as I can tell, it all comes down to the age of the protagonist, which I think is misleading for parents. I have personally read some YA that features graphic rape, suicide, self-harm, and violence. I don't even mention the sex and language because the argument always comes up 'kids are doing it anyway'.
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Maybe it's all the genre fiction I've been reading. In genre fiction, even when really terrible things happen to the protagonists, they (almost) always turn out okay in the end.
On age of protagonist for age appropriate reading: I keep thinking of all the series where the main character ages (gasp!). Like Harry Potter, aging with his initial audience, but picking up more kids (of all ages) along the way. First book was fine for eleven year olds, but book four starts to deal with some really grisly stuff! Or Tamora Pierce's Alanna quartet where Alanna and friends age four years in the first book, are all teens in the second book, and young adults in the last two. I guess it's a YA series because the books started with them as kids.
Personally, I think there's something a little harder to put your finger on that defines YA. One of those "know it when you read it" kind of distinctions that's in the way the plot is laid out and the level of detail in descriptions and character development. And the overall themes of the story, too.
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Also this juxtaposition totally dragged me into optimism too. I didn't realize until this reread, but classically unreliable narrator!
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I've never been able to put my finger on it. The stereotypical YA is usually written in first POV and seems to be a running inner dialogue of feelings and events that surround 'coming of age'. But there is always the exception. IE: Harry Potter.
Sometimes I think it's just a marketing ploy. I think it's kind of dumb that they have two different covers for Harry Potter; one that appeals to younger kids, and another set that is designed for adults (I guess so they won't be embarrassed to read it?) I don't really get it.
The 'what defines a genre' discussions on Goodreads are always heated though!
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I can't say that I've thought about it as much as you all have, Sabrina and Erin, but the main thing that sets YA apart for me is the age of the protagonist(s) and the fact that the sex and violence is generally more implied than explicit, if it's there at all. But a significant percentage of YA fiction can be read with pleasure by adults, for sure. I loved "The Hunger Games," and am a big Harry Potter fan. That series is amazing in that the books (as Erin pointed out) do mature as the protagonists do. I wonder how many 8 year olds really "got" a lot of "The Deathly Hallows"?
I think YA is a genre that has also matured a lot in recent decades; certainly the YA books of my adolescence were pretty bland compared to what is available now!
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I used to think that too, Merrily. About YA not being explicit and more implied subject matter. Unfortunately, it's not always the case. I read one series that made the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo look tame.
A few months ago I happened to read a segment from my daughter's book that she got from the school librarian, because she was so disturbed by the content. This was classified as a children's book, which is the age group below YA. The villain slammed a young girl on a table, reached down her throat, and ripped her soul out, killing her. It was described in a very graphic manner, with screaming and flopping limbs, before he hacked the girl apart and tossed the pieces in a pot, licking the blood from his butcher's knife as he did so. What was really disturbing to me, was that it was told in the manner of many dark humor adult books.
As a parent, I pretty much have started checking online content sites, or reading the books myself.
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Sabrina, barf! the YA books of my youth tended to be about boyfriend troubles and the like (although even then I tended to prefer mysteries and science fiction - and anything with dogs and horses). How the world has changed. Can't we wait until a person is at least 21 before we start planting disturbing images in his/her mind?
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Though that brings to mind that American parents seem to be far more concerned with sexual content in the media their kids are exposed to than graphic violence (movies, video games, and now books too, I guess). I think reading the books yourself is the best idea, for sure.
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But the tone of the narration struck me as younger. Just tell the story and let the emotions flow, rather than trying to corral them.
My son ( an athlete, Eagle Scout and in AP English-not to brag but to say well rounded) was assigned Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon in the 11th grade. He was in an absolutely FOUL mood for weeks, and I finally got him to open up: the book had made him horribly edgy and depressed. Now, I'm not saying 17 yo students should be protected from distress, but I do think parents need to know what they're reading, and be alert!My daughter was assigned The Things They Carried at the same age, and just couldn't stomach it. She (10 years later) admitted she Spark-noted the report. I did question at the time whether she had enough life experience to benefit from the book.
I think we're pushing things out to them too early. Should To Kill a Mockingbird be an 8th grade book? Many 12-13 year olds lack the depth of character to really understand it yet. Yes, I know they need exposure to GET experience, but can they adequately discuss it at that age? Any Educators out there care to comment?
Erin wrote: "...Also this juxtaposition totally dragged me into optimism too. I didn't realize until this reread, but classically unreliable narrator!I don't want to comment too much about that now, because I think it's too early for spoilers, but in this case I think the unreliable narrator is not merely a plot device, but rather a major thematic element. (Although that did not occur to me until I was WELL into the second section of the book.)
MaryL wrote: "...I think we're pushing things out to them too early. Should To Kill a Mockingbird be an 8th grade book? Many 12-13 year olds lack the depth of character to really understand it yet. Yes, I know they need exposure to GET experience, but can they adequately discuss it at that age? Any Educators out there care to comment?"I lack any relevant knowledge or experience, but I emailed the question to my daughter, who has taught English in a Bronx high school for 10 years. If she has time to respond (she's a busy lady), we'll see what she thinks.
Although I haven't started reading this month's selection, I did know that it was YA when I bought it a few years back. In determining what YA is, there are indeed many diverse opinions. When I got my Masters in Library Science ten years ago, I focused on young adult literature, and I could pretty much tell you what grade levels various books were best for. Matters get a bit complicated when teen lit is thrown in with YA as one category, because it's not. However, some kids are ready to read a teen novel before they're a teen an some aren't. There are readers, like my six-year-old granddaughter who is reading Harry Potter and insist on more advanced reading to feed their passion for books. Sabrina, I think it's a good idea that you know what your children are reading and how it's likely to affect them. But, then I think we've all read books beyond our understanding when we were growing up. As readers, we were probably quick to push the boundaries when young. There were more than a few girls reading Lolita before they were ready for it. I don't like to think of censoring anyone's reading, but I do agree that there is such a thing as age appropriateness. And, I think that in just the ten years since I studied YA and teen lit, the field has exploded with books that are harder to determine what age they best serve. I like that you read your kids' books, Sabrina. I always did, too. It's how I found one of my favorite books, Things Fall Apart, when my son was reading it in high school. Of course, it's not a YA or teen, but it was an assigned book he read as a teen. I still love to read YA, and there are so many great authors writing it. John Green and Gabrielle Zevin are two of my favorites. So, that's my two cents worth. Now I need to find my copy of Code Name Verity.
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Kathy, you're so right about having pushed the boundaries when we were young. I remember being incredibly frustrated because you weren't allowed to check out "Adult" books from our local public library until you were 14, and since I was reading at a 6th grade level when I was in First Grade, I felt very confined in the Children's/YA section. For one thing, I also was a very fast reader and since many "children's" books had large print, I could go through five or six of them in a couple days. Oh, the joy of being allowed to check out big, fat books with relatively small print!
And I'm sure I read things that my parents wouldn't have approved of, but in those days, I think even "inappropriate" books were pretty mild by today's standards.
"MaryL said: My son ( an athlete, Eagle Scout and in AP English-not to brag but to say well rounded) was assigned Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon in the 11th grade. He was in an absolutely FOUL mood for weeks," We had a similar situation. My Eagle Scout, Athletic, AP student son got very depressed after reading "Ordinary People" in 10th grade. I had the same reaction in 1977 when it first came out.
My daughter had to read "Reviving Ophelia" for 10th grade Health Ed.
John's English teacher told me that the school district felt that the the students needed to read books about dysfunctional families so that the teens read about families that are as mixed up as their own. My response is that there is so much well written YA literature that they shouldn't be stuck reading depressing books.
As for To Kill A Mockingbird - it is an important American Classic but I think most 14 and 15 year olds don'thave the life experiences to understand the racial issues of the book.
Just because a book has a teenaged character does not mean that all teens are ready to or should be required to read it.
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Laura, I know reading tastes differ, but am always a little puzzled by people who want to read books that are unrelentingly bleak, depressing and dark, or schools that think that the only improving literature is about sad people in horrible situations. About 95% of the books that Oprah recommended, for example, just didn't interest me at all - life is sad enough without spending hours in a world where everyone is miserable (I don't count "To Kill a Mockingbird" among these, obviously, because sad as it is, we still see both the good and bad in human nature). No wonder reading some of these books would depress a teenager! I know that mixed up families and human depravity and cruelness are realities, but so are good people and stories that leave one with a hint of hope. That's probably why I like mysteries!
Merrily wrote: "Laura wrote: ""MaryL said: My son ( an athlete, Eagle Scout and in AP English-not to brag but to say well rounded) was assigned Toni Morrison's Song of Solomon in the 11th grade. He was in an absol..."I agree. If a book depresses or upsets me I just stop reading it. Life is too short to read books I don't like. I only read 1 or 2 of the Oprah books for that same reason. "The Memory Keepers Daughter" still haunts me.
But teens with depressing required reading are stuck. My children are grown but their school district required summer reading list was always full of dark, depressing books about truly mixed up families. I always wondered why they didn't have a selection of books with a more positive outlook. There are many excellent books written for the YA market.
For example - our favorite heroine Mary Russell - is a teen with lots of issues. She is orphaned, abused and neglected by her guardian and riddled with guilt but in "The Beekeepers Apprentice" finds Holmes and Mrs Hudson to nurture her body, mind and soul. It is excellent writing about a female character who has issues but overcomes them.
I have always felt that Mary Russell is a strong female role model for teen girls. At least she was for my teen daughter. Mary Russell showed my non-conforming teen that it was OK to be different and smart. i have always wondered if Laurie King intended for Mary to be that way or did she evolve that way. (sorry if I went too far off topic. )
Now I need to find a copy of "Code Name Verity"!
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Laura, I completely agree about BEEK, and I believe that it has been used in the curricular readings for a number of middle schools. I think the reason why it may not have become ubiquitous is that so many people have this mindset that "genre fiction" can't also be literature, which of course is nuts. So instead of assigning a good story that the kids might well enjoy reading, they assign literary fiction that makes you despair of human nature! I realize that I'm exaggerating here, but that is the way I feel about some of the "Life is short and bleak and then you die" stuff out there!
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Where to start...
On reading depressing books: I am with Merrily. I have never understood the appeal of dark and depressing books. If a child's life is depressing, the last thing they need is more depressing stuff in their head. Books should instill hope and bring light to a reader's suffering.
Good for you, Laura! For responding to that teacher. I can't even believe that anyone swallows that reasoning of... "the students needed to read books about dysfunctional families so that the teens read about families that are as mixed up as their own."
It's like a suicidal person coming in for help and the psychiatrist has him watch or read up on other suicidal people's issues and how they finally killed themselves. Unless, of course, a story ends with the person choosing to live and transforming their life.
I think the sad thing is that whenever a reader says that they didn't like a book because it was too graphic or depressing, then a ton of other readers inevitably jumps on them, saying, 'You can't handle real life! You should go watch Disney movies.' Personally, I've found the opposite true. People who have been through hell are some of the most emotional and empathetic people I know.
Which leads me to the book. Without spoilers, I will say that I appreciated how this book handled the horrible subject matter. I felt that it communicated the severity of the situation and heart-wrenching emotions without being gratuitous or overly graphic. It did a very good job of portraying the horrors of war. It didn't make a larger than life hero out of anyone and it didn't glorify events. Instead, it showed the messed up, horrific ripple effect of war. For that reason, I think that this is a great read for both teenagers and adults.
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Yes, it was the A Tale Dark & Grimm series. As you can see by the reviews, some rave about it, and others think it's inappropriate. Maybe some kids are fine with it, but not mine. I know that most of her classmates have been watching R-rated horror movies since kindergarten (also the same classmate who started writing death threats to the other kids in school). The book drastically affected my daughter's mental state. She started isolating herself, and sitting in the dark. She'd tell me how morbid her imagination was, that she imagines all the ways people could die, and stopped smiling as much. I eventually pinpointed the issue, and she admitted that some things in the book made her sick and left her shivering, but it also made her laugh at places. I think, for a child, dark humor is very confusing.
Authors manipulate their readers all the time. It's part of storytelling. In this case, the author is purposefully manipulating a child into laughing at graphic violence. And I think that is very twisted.
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I think it's fine, and actually sort of expect kids to push reading boundaries, but I think kids don't start pushing boundaries until they are ready to. There was always a certain 'OMG, I'm reading an adult book' thrill when I read something I wasn't supposed to. I expected it to have things in there that I shouldn't have been reading. And when I picked up a children's book, I knew it would make me feel safe and have a happy ending. Now... that's not the case.
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Very true, Sabrina, and of course the sort of "adult" books that were available when I was a pre-teen were nothing like what a kid might stumble on now. I totally agree with your view of Dark and Depressing books, too. I should also add that I have a pretty vivid imagination and have read some books that were a mistake as I couldn't get the images out of my head for weeks. I wouldn't want a child to go through that if it could be avoided!
I never "censored" what my children read for fun. I assumed that they would drop a book that was too much for them. And I certainly don't think that schools or libraries should be either. BUT I do think that schools should think about is a depressing or violent or sexually explicit book is really appropriate for the age group. And is there another way to teach the subject with a different book.
Also teens today are so much more mature than I was in the 70's. They are exposed to topics that I never heard of. For example, modern teens know all about LGBTQ issues. I was not exposed to it until college. When I was in high school a Lesbian couple bought the house next door. My mother told me they were "roommates". I can't imagine that now.
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This book kind of hearkened back to 10th grade for me. We did this huge (like seriously half the year) lesson plan on the theme of tolerance that was a joint effort between my World History and English Lit classes. Major emphasis on WWII and the holocaust, of course (The Diary of a Young Girl by Ann Frank, Night by Elie Wiesel, Shindler's List, etc), but then branched into similar events in more recent history (conflict in Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Rowanda, etc, etc).
Book selections for kids and teens is a tricky area. I don't agree that kids should only be given happy optimistic books to read because it paints an unreal picture of the world. Some books are supposed to make you sad or angry about the subject they are discussing!
Books open your mind to the experiences of others. Agreed, it doesn't make much sense to give books about bad family experiences to kids living through the same thing. But for their peers who have no idea that something like this might be impacting people they know? Might be a real eye-opener.
Similarly, waiting to teach teens about uncomfortable topics in history makes little sense to me because middle school and high school are the only times where mandatory curriculum comes into play. Would I have gotten more out of To Kill A Mockingbird if I were older when I read, absolutely (gosh, our more recent discussion there was amazing!), but that leaves so much to self-motivation.
Definitely selections need to be made carefully, though! As Sabrina said, I think Code Name Verity did such a wonderful job of talking about sensitive subjects (like French Resistance and prisoners who were tortured during war) without dissolving into a horror story.
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One to think about while reading anyway:
1) Who is the "main" character of the book? Is this Verity's story? Or Maddie's?
I read an interview of the author recently and her response to that question took me aback because it was the opposite of how I viewed the book.
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I think the bigger eyebrow-raiser is that it won a whole bunch of awards in children's book categories. You'd think School Library Journal would be a safe recommendation! And Rick Riordan five-starred it! And then to see: "This book is not for people with weak tolerance for death, blood, and overall gore. The ending is fairly happy, but VERY bloody things happen on the way." That's just crazy.
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I wonder if the power of imagination has something to do with reading tastes. I am the same way. My imagination is extremely vivid. I live and breathe a story. So depressing content with no light at the end of the tunnel really affects me. Whereas my husband, who has admitted that he does not visualize anything he's reading, but simply absorbs the information, is never emotionally impacted by a book.
What about others? Do you visualize a scene, or do you simply read the words and absorb information?
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For me, it all depends on the manner in which the book is presented and the prose. For example, Folly painted a perfect image of trauma and mental illness, and yet, it had a light at the end of the tunnel and ended on a note of hope. Due to its themes, and although at times painful, that book personally affected me in a good way.
Laurie just posted this great blog on books used as therapy. I don't know if it was coincidence, or our conversation inspired her, but here is link: http://laurierking.com/2016/06/novel-...
Also, I'm with you on wanting to discuss spoilers, Erin! I have one in particular that bugs me. It's in my review. And I don't know... I kind of feel like it's a story of friendship. You can't have Maddie's story without Verity's.
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I know. I find the awards disturbing. I thought maybe I was overreacting to the segments I read, but my husband was disgusted too. Because of the way the book was affecting my daughter, we took the book away, and I handed her the original Grimm's Fairytales. She is enjoying those. There was just something in the prose that was disturbing. I think the original Grimm's Fairytales is written in a way that doesn't gleefully linger over gory description.
Erin wrote: "Sabrina wrote: "I felt that it communicated the severity of the situation and heart-wrenching emotions without being gratuitous or overly graphic. It did a very good job of portraying the horrors o..."Erin, I agree we cannot shelter our children from the all of bad in the world even though at times we want to. And books do expose us to many different issues. As a parent, I did not like the school curriculum being based primarily on depressing books about mixed up, dysfunctional teens. There are many books that can approach the issues of life without causing major depression or personality changes.
Monday afternoon, I went to my library for my regular volunteer session and to pick up my audio book copy of "Code Name Verity". While I was there I talked to the Youth Librarian, Angela. I asked her if there were guidelines about what ages could take out "adult" books. According to the ALA, a librarian is not allowed to restrict any book to any age patron. Her example was if a 9 year old asked for "50 Shades of Gray" that they would have to give it to her. I also asked about what makes a book be classified as YA. YA is a book with the main characters between the ages of 12-18 or a book with a theme that appeals to ages 12=18.
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Yeah, that makes sense. The original Grimms are cautionary tales meant to make you think about consequences. I haven't read them in a while, but I thought they were pretty matter of fact about the dark bits.
Kind of like the difference between watching an old school Bruce Lee type martial arts film and Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill.
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I keep thinking about how Tolkein wrote The Hobbit for his kids, but it's no longer considered a "kids" book because it has no kids in it.
Erin wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "I also asked about what makes a book be classified as YA. YA is a book with the main characters between the ages of 12-18 or a book with a theme that appeals to ages 12=1...""The Hobbit" is one I always think of as being a crossover between generations. Most of the people I know read it as teens and again (and again) as adults.
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In a way, I think the "YA" thing is a relatively modern invention. When I was 12 or 14, I had read "Little Women," "Jane Eyre," "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court," "Huckleberry Finn," and a number of books that were written for adults but fell into the category of books that kids liked, too, and that could be read throughout one's life. It had more to do with your reading skill than it did your age. I still read "The Secret Garden" and enjoy it! I think "The Hobbit" is another good example of this kind of book.
Merrily wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "I also asked about what makes a book be classified as YA. YA is a book with the main characters between the ages of 12-18 or a book with a them..."I can remember reading lots of 19th century classics in school. I don't recall being assigned contemporary literature, let alone anything designed for young people. Some of those books went right over my head.
In an earlier post someone referred to "unreliable narrator." I don't think I understand the meaning of that term. Can someone explain?
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Exactly, Erin! And I agree, Grimm's Fairytales were more cautionary tales. I plan on listening to Edgar Allen Poe with the kids too. It's like the difference between today's horror movies compared to the old horror movies like The Birds, or even The Shinning.
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Thank you so much for checking with your librarian, Laura. That was the definition I came away with during numerous YA genre discussions.
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Cathy, an "unreliable narrator" is a term they use for when the story is being recounted in the First Person by a character, and we learn over the course of the story that what the character sees or experiences isn't necessarily what happened. As readers we're inclined to believe what the narrator is telling us, and so it's often a shock when we find out that s/he was mistaken. In LOCK, Russell is an unreliable narrator, because for a good part of the book she's deluded about her own past and about what is happening around her. The heroine in "The Girl on the Train" was a great example of an unreliable narrator.
Merrily wrote: "Cathy wrote: "Merrily wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "I also asked about what makes a book be classified as YA. YA is a book with the main characters between the ages ..."But isn't there some issue of degree? Isn't there some quantum of unreliability before the narrator qualifies? Everyone (even characters in a story) has her/his perspective so how does the reader recognize the "truth"? In Locked Rooms Russell is so upset and Holmes keeps poking at her with questions so the reader knows something is up. Doesn't "unreliable narrator" really become significant when the reader is taken in and only later ( maybe slowly) realizes things are not as they appeared?
Sabrina wrote: "Ack, I was traveling and couldn't comment on Goodreads. So many excellent points have been made. I also finished the book on the plane, so yay!Where to start...
On reading depressing books: I a..."
Sabrina, I had to chuckle a bit when you brought up people advising others to go watch Disney movies. Have you all noticed that there seems to be a dead parent in many of these movies, not just Disney, of course. I remember thinking at one point, I can't watch another children's movie where the mother or father is dead or dying. Maybe I need cartoons, but that's probably not any better. Hahaha!
Merrily wrote: "Cathy wrote: "Merrily wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "Laura wrote: "Erin wrote: "I also asked about what makes a book be classified as YA. YA is a book with the main characters between the ages ..."Merrily, I love a well written unreliable narrator. My most recent favorite is in the book I Let You Go by Clare Mackintosh.
Cathy asked: But isn't there some issue of degree? Isn't there some quantum of unreliability before the narrator qualifies?Yes, but it's the difference between an individual perspective that is still mostly factually correct and a narrator who is not factually correct, either through deliberate misdirection or through - in Russell's case - unreliable memory. It's not a hard and fast line, though, there is definitely some grey area there.
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Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Hero of France (other topics)Until the Final Hour: Hitler's Last Secretary (other topics)
Perdido Street Station (other topics)
Rose Under Fire (other topics)
The Hobbit, or There and Back Again (other topics)
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There are so many wonderful faucets of this twisty story to discuss; I can't wait to hear what you all think about this book!