The Black Moth Group Read June 2016 Spoilers thread

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

What is your final opinion of this book? i've always thought it was an amazing book for such a young writer.

[HJ]

I've only re-read up to chapter 15 so far -- I was going to comment on the thread for chapters 1-15 but I'm concerned that anything I might say could be considered a spoiler!

I agree that it's an amazingly good book for such a young writer, although I'm glad that Heyer moved on to the Regency and abandoned the rather archaic style of writing used in this book.

I wonder if anyone would write book with this central thesis now? -- that a gentleman would be ruined and ostracised if found to be cheating at cards. Is this concept of honour generally understood by people today? or am I being too cynical? It was still understood at the time Heyer wrote it.

Given that he was the eldest son, I've always found it a little difficult to believe that Jack would have taken the blame for Richard. It is implied that Richard was his father's favourite son, and of course Jack knew how he felt about Lavinia, but Jack would have been brought up from childhood with a sense of responsibility for the title and estates which he was going to inherit. One might argue that this made him feel responsible for his younger brother, but I would say not at the cost of everything else.

Of course it's fun to have a highwayman in the book, but again I doubt whether Jack would have turned highwayman even if only on the Robin Hood basis. We may think it romantic now, but at the time they were regarded as common thieves.

I think that one reason why I don't re-read this book very often is the sadness of the situation: Jack's grieving parents, the fact that Lavinia just isn't worth the sacrifice Jack made and she and Richard aren't even happy together, to say nothing of Jack's appalling loneliness for six years.

[HJ]

I've finished it now, and I think it is well-written throughout. Sometimes new authors spend so much time setting everything up that they rush through the denouement, but Heyer managed to avoid that I think. I like the ending, although I suspect Lavinia may be a little optimistic in thinking that there are few ill-effects for Richard. After all, if cheating was bad enough for Jack to go into exile (and it was) I don't see Richard going scot-free even if Jack makes it as easy as he can for him.

I think it's generally believed that Tracy is an early incarnation of the Duke of Avon from These Old Shades, isn't it? They're not exactly the same character, and of course the story is different, but there are similarities between the two Dukes and several other characters.

I wonder whether Heyer was teasing a little with the title! (because she was reintroducing old friends from the first book). This is where the title comes from:

"Whereas with these old shades of mine,
Their ways and dress delight me;
And should I trip by word or line,
They cannot well indict me. . . .” AUSTIN DOBSON: Epilogue to Eighteenth-Century Vignettes

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Finished & still loved. I only realised on this reading that Andrew becomes Rupert in These Old Shades.

There is a timing flaw where Jack rescues Mrs Fanshawe when she is "young & not very wise" but I think she appears to be at least 35 when Richard meets her. As the total period of Jack's disgrace is 6 years this seems out.

The cheating at cards - oh the horror! Yet Tracy was going to kidnap & rape Diana & he tried to murder Jack (doesn't matter that he had no idea who Diana's masked rescuer was) & all will be swept under the carpet & forgiven.

I still love this book - just can't explain why!

[Critterbee❇]

Finished, after my first read. What an amazing book for her to have written at such a young age!

Overall, I did enjoy it, and I also have a huge hate on for the way that abusing women was so matter of fact. What a helpless creature woman was in this book. She could be forcibly bound and kidnapped, for whatever purposes a man wanted, and his fellow men took no issue with it, unless they themselves desired the woman.

If a woman showed strong spirit or preference for what she wanted, she "wanted mastering." When Lavinia was seized and kissed by Lovelace, she was scolded by her brother for possibly affecting his interests and his name.

I do see shades of Tracy in Avon, yet somehow he did not come across as so horrid. In Avon's past, he did elope with the future Lady Merrivale, and she was then rescued by her future husband. In These Old Shades, it seemed an awkward situation, but reading it as it happened in TBM brought home the horror of the situation.

So it does seem like These Old Shades is a sequel of sorts, as others have noted previously. Lavinia turns into Fanny (with her steady "boring" husband), Andrew becomes Rupert, and Poor Diana is Lady Merrivale. No sign of the magnificent Leonie, who is one of my favorite GH characters, and who helped make TOS brilliant.

Are the O'Haras in These Old Shades? They were my favorite part of the book.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Critterbee wrote: "Finished, after my first read. What an amazing book for her to have written at such a young age! ...

...Are the O'Haras in These Old Shades? They were my favorite part of the book.

No & I think Koestler incorrectly wrote that Deb's Irish friend in Faro's Daughter was her only Irishman. I'm going away for a couple of days, but I'll check that when I get back.

I think Richard becomes Edward Marling (GH makes Edward a more worthy character though) Frank Fortescue becomes Hugh Davenant. Diana & Jack's story is the same as the Merivales but they aren't the same characters IMO.

[Susan in NC]

Sorry, we are traveling with inconsistent Internet and I posted a couple days ago that I finished and really enjoyed the book, but I don't see my comment here, I think I put it on the Chapter 1-15 thread.

Anyway, I obviously have to reread TOS because I didn't remember those characters, I was thinking of Talisman Ring because of the young, disgraced nobleman turned criminal to survive (Ludovic and Jack). I really liked Jack and thought he was a very sweet and rather tragic figure, and so glad to see him restored to his rightful place in society. Diana was a wonderful heroine! Richard was a milquetoast but much to be pitied for falling so hard for such a headcase as Lavinia! Loved the O'Haras and Diana's aunt, they were delightful.

[HJ]

The Wikipedia article on These Old Shades has a table showing which characters from The Black Moth become which in TOS. Sorry for the odd formatting; the original is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/These_O... It seems that the O'Haras do not reappear.

The Black Moth These Old Shades
Tracy "Devil" Belmanoir, Duke of Andover = Justin "Satanas" Alastair, Duke of Avon
Lady Lavinia Carstares (née Belmanoir) = Lady Fanny Marling (née Alastair)
The Hon. Richard Carstares = Mr. Edward Marling
John Carstares = John Marling
Lord Andrew Bmelmanoir = Lord Rupert Alastair
Harriet Fleming (née Belmanoir) = Harriet Field (née Alastair)
Miss Diana Beauleigh = Lady Merivale (née Jennifer Beauchamp)
Jack Carstares, Earl of Wyndham = Anthony, Lord Merivale
Frank Fortescue = Hugh Davenant
Sir John Fortescue =Frederick, Lord Colehatch

[Susan in NC]

HJ wrote: "The Wikipedia article on These Old Shades has a table showing which characters from The Black Moth become which in TOS. Sorry for the odd formatting; the original is her..."

Thank you!

[Teresa]

Finished. It was great to read it again. Was the first book I ever read by GH. Parts of it annoyed me. Especially the ending. Everything forgiven and over in a matter of an hour when it had caused so much trouble for seven years.

Did I pick up on a mistake? When Tracey was ordering covers for everyone for dinner, he said he wasn't staying as he'd already supped, yet wasn't he there at the meal afterwards?

I found it difficult to understand that Tracey got away with the abduction and treatment of Diana. Bit far fetched to think everyone would sit down to a meal together.

I really liked O' Hara. A lot of authors don't do Irish characters well. They're language is usually all wrong with lots of 'begorrahs and begoshs' thrown in. She did a great job with O' Hara. Just enough proper 'Irishisims' for us to know he's related to the Emerald Isle.

But it was great to read it again and I think I picked up on a lot more this time. Roll on the next challenge.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Good points Teresa.

I was reading the part of my Koestler that refers to The Black Moth. An unnamed school friend of GH's says on a Saturday morning GH would invent plays that they would act in. The Black Moth, The Masqueraders & Beauvallet were developed from these plays.

[Teresa]

Must dip in to my Koestler again Carol. I know I enjoyed it very much first time round.

[Critterbee❇]

I am currently reading the biography, and just read the part where the school friend mentioned that!

For anyone who has not read it yet, it is really interesting so far. Georgette Heyer's Regency World

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Critterbee wrote: "I am currently reading the biography, and just read the part where the school friend mentioned that!

For anyone who has not read it yet, it is really interesting so far.

That is Koestler's other GH related book. I'm referring to her biography I did get part way through Regency World. I'm intending to take it to the conference to get Jen Koestler to sign it. :)

[Critterbee❇]

My mistake, I am reading it on my kindle, through overdrive, and I was not paying attention to the title.
It is Georgette Heyer

I also noticed that I have not been correctly changing my 'currently reading' books to 'read' when finished.

So wonderful for you to be able to meet her! Enjoy the conference!

[Kim]

I know, I forget to do that as well, at times (re: change tbr to read). I get reminded when I see a comment on my status or review.

[Melanie]

While I enjoy The Black Moth (and enjoyed picking out the characters with their matches in These Old Shades), I found Tracy a bit too evil a villain for me. Although the situation ends with Diana being rescued, the idea that he's done it before, and got away with it, is a little too horrifying for me. I always assumed that one of the reasons GH didn't make These Old Shades a direct sequel, is that she realised she made Tracy's past a little too unforgivably evil. So she was able to write the sequel that was hinted at in the epilogue while nudging Tracy just a teensy bit into the hero category.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Melanie wrote: "While I enjoy The Black Moth (and enjoyed picking out the characters with their matches in These Old Shades), I found Tracy a bit too evil a villain for me. Although the situation ends with Diana b..."

I'm wondering if GH realised that she was fonder of the villain & rewrote it to give him a happy ending. In TOS Avon mentions his past contains (view spoiler)[ scandal after sordid scandal (I'm quoting from memory) So I guess TOS gives both Belmanoir & Avon redemption (hide spoiler)]

It would be fun to read the two in tandem someday!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

& just touching on what Tadiana says about Richard in our first thread. . .

Richard lets both parents die thinking badly of Jack! What a worm!

[HJ]

Carol ♔ Type, Oh Queen! ♔ wrote: "& just touching on what Tadiana says about Richard in our first thread. . .

Richard lets both parents die thinking badly of Jack! What a worm!"

I agree. No doubt he justified it to himself by saying that Jack's sacrifice shouldn't be in vain, since preventing his father discovering the truth about Richard was one of Jack's movies, but I think it was despicable.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

An awful worm like Richard deserves the awful Lavinia.

[Elza]

Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "An awful worm like Richard deserves the awful Lavinia."

They do deserve each other. That in itself makes for a satisfying conclusion, doesn't it?

Tracy is one of GH's most chilling villains. She made Avon more sympathetic because he at least has some compassion for Leon(view spoiler)[/Leonie (hide spoiler)]. But Tracy's driving, and only, motivation is what he wants -- Diana's wishes are completely irrelevant. I know that it's impossible to ascribe 21st-century sensibilities to 18th-century characters -- but the opposite can still be true. The Stanford rape case demonstrates that Tracy's abhorrent view of women, as objects to be used for his gratification, is unfortunately still alive and well today.
GH tries to make him more sympathetic at the end, but I don't buy it. He's not sorry he did it, he's just sorry it didn't work.

[Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽]

Elza wrote: "GH tries to make him more sympathetic at the end, but I don't buy it. He's not sorry he did it, he's just sorry it didn't work."

So true! But at least Tracy (rather odd name for guy in the 19th century, BTW) did come to some sort of self-realization in the end. I find his discussion with his friend Frank on the last page or two quite poignant. Still, I can see why GH decided to rename and recast the characters from this book in TOS. My guess it was primarily to get rid of some of the Duke's excessively dark baggage.

I blew through this book in one day yesterday, so I have to give it some credit for being very readable, despite some eye-rolling that took place several times along the way. :)

[Susan in Perthshire]

Thank goodness I read TOS first. I found Tracy to be rather too black to be able to empathise with him . On the other hand, I found Alastair in TOS a much more sympathetic and understandable character. I still think that The Black Moth is an magnificent achievement for a 17 year old but her youthful inexperience and lack of understanding does come through in both her plotting and characterisations.
When she came to write TOS, she was able to take the kernel of her ideas for TBM and produce a stunningly realistic and believable world in which totally real characters moved and drove the plot. As Tadiana said - a pleasant easy read; but I doubt I will return to it again. I am glad I had the chance to appreciate her youthful talents once more though!!

[Susan in NC]

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Thank goodness I read TOS first. I found Tracy to be rather too black to be able to empathise with him . On the other hand, I found Alastair in TOS a much more sympathetic and understandable charac..."

I agree, it was my first time and I really enjoyed it, but more like I enjoyed the Indiana Jones movies - fun, adventurous romps, straightforward good and bad characters, a dash of romance, kind of a homage to a simpler, more innocent time. But still an amazing accomplishment for such a young writer!

[Susan in Perthshire]

Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Thank goodness I read TOS first. I found Tracy to be rather too black to be able to empathise with him . On the other hand, I found Alastair in TOS a much more sympathet..."

Absolutely! I remember sitting in my bedroom aged 13 or 14 after I had read Devil's Cub - I was inspired to try and write like her - but of course - I was no Georgette Heyer!! I always knew she was talented - but to be able to produce something as good as this at 17 is really remarkable!

[Elza]

GH obviously liked her bad boys, and she had a fondness for the "highwayman with a heart of gold," because he shows up in numerous stories: (view spoiler)[ The Toll-Gate, Lady of Quality (hide spoiler)] -- am I missing any? I feel like I am.

Anyway, what I find most interesting about TBM is that she focuses on Tracy, when I consider Jack as the real hero. But Tracy is the title character and the catalyst for everything that happens, so you know that, for her, this is his story.

An impressive debut for an author of any age -- and when you consider that we are still discussing her work today, even more impressive.The transformation of TBM into TOS -- Andover to Avon -- demonstrates growth as a writer and a willingness to edit and improve her own work.

[HJ]

Elza wrote: "....The transformation of TBM into TOS -- Andover to Avon -- demonstrates growth as a writer and a willingness to edit and improve her own work. ...."

I agree! But it just occurred to me that if an author did that today she might well be accused of only having one plot / all her books being too alike, etc.. In Heyer's case she'd written a few other books in between, but even so I could see it happening!

[Margaret]

Well, it isn't as if the plot of TOS is in any way similar to TBM. It's more that Avon as a character is a makeover of Tracy, with something approximating the plot of TBM in his backstory.

[HJ]

Margaret wrote: "Well, it isn't as if the plot of TOS is in any way similar to TBM. It's more that Avon as a character is a makeover of Tracy, with something approximating the plot of TBM in his backstory."

I agree.