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End of Watch
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End Of Watch
I think slipping in direct references like Jonestown and direct exposition like the "suicide is control" line pretty much state Brady's mindset. In fact bringing up Jonestown felt a bit like a sledgehammer to me. My wife actually read some of the book Brady read, Raven: The Untold Story of the Rev. Jim Jones and His People, so I joked she would turn into a Brady, which I guess actually lends credence to Nick's point about the somewhat weak premise of Brady's vileness. Then again, aren't many notorious criminals simply the result of sexual abuse and poor home life?
As for why Brady is obsessed with suicide, besides the aforementioned control aspect maybe Brady is projecting his own suicidal tendencies. It was pointed out multiple times that he was willing to kill himself at the concert.
Other readers have brought it up as well, but I was wondering how well people thought Finders Keepers fit in this trilogy? I mostly agree with jamesv that it felt more like a standalone novel. Obviously it had the trio of Hodges, Holly, and Jerome and the Saubers family was directly affected by the massacre from Mr. Mercedes. But did any of the events in FK, besides the last minute reveal of Brady's power, directly play into End of Watch? If not, why do you think King decided to make this a trilogy instead of a duology or even one longer novel?
Ive been wondering the same thing. You could basically skip finders keepers alltogether and go into end of watch right after mr.mercedes without loosing anything. Finders keepers could have been a standalone after the duology. Like the adventures of hodges and company or something.
Jarek wrote: "Ive been wondering the same thing. You could basically skip finders keepers alltogether and go into end of watch right after mr.mercedes without loosing anything. Finders keepers could have been a ..."Totally agree on this, and being someone who thinks Finders Keepers is the best book of the three, I don't hesitate to recommend it as a stand alone to readers who don't plan to read the trilogy.
I don't know anything about mind control, like Brady had, his ability to "see" another person's thoughts and manipulate them but.... just asking....Are there really people who have this ability or is this a King creation?
And, the experimental drugs that Dr. Babineau gave Brady for years, do you think that they brought about Brady's new ability?
Betsy wrote: "I don't know anything about mind control, like Brady had, his ability to "see" another person's thoughts and manipulate them but.... just asking....Are there really people who have this ability o..."
King has been a bit fascinated with this idea for years, going all the way back to Firestarter and his creation of “The Shop” in much of his early work. I don’t think anyone knows for sure if these abilities actually exist, and taking it a step further, if medication can suppress or strengthen them.
Personably, I believe in some of it. There are people who can just “feel” something is wrong with someone they love and be correct. What is this if not a low grade of psychic ability. Highly specialized and uncontrollable, but psychic none the less.
I really, really wish King would revisit The Shop and was hoping this wackado Dr. Was his segway into that, but apparently not.
I found it interesting in Barbara Robinson's conversation with Holly ~ 40% where Barbara says how hard it is to be black, even a well-to-do black, in a white school = all the taunts and you never quite fit in with either group.Did the fact that King brought up this blackish issue add anything to the story, in your opinion?
Betsy wrote: "I found it interesting in Barbara Robinson's conversation with Holly ~ 40% where Barbara says how hard it is to be black, even a well-to-do black, in a white school = all the taunts and you never q..."I thought it came in sideways, but it was good... Babara Robinson is an important character (even more so Jarome) and this is the kind of thing that a twisted guy like Brady would use to get to her. The issue is there whether we like it or not. I have a character in one of my books who is black but you know I never once mention that he is, or say anything about it, and I'm sure no one knows but me. In my mind he's black but the average reader might not get it. That's supposed to be good. But I kind of regret never mentioning something about it. At least indirectly.
Betsy wrote: "I found it interesting in Barbara Robinson's conversation with Holly ~ 40% where Barbara says how hard it is to be black, even a well-to-do black, in a white school = all the taunts and you never q..."This scene with Barbar explaining her teenage angst to Holly was very relevant to the story as showcasing that suicide is the second cause of deaths among teens and that Black children, regardless of socioeconomic status, are not immune from bias that can break down their self-esteem.
Some constant readers like myself, who endured in the 1960's what this character went through, found that King did a great job touching the many reasons why young people can become susceptible to despair. At that age, everything is a big deal.
I have to admit that I have never had or have never played any electronic game.Is it true that these games do have a hypnotic effect, sometimes even causing mild seizures and come with warnings:
"Do not play for prolonged periods." Have you ever had an adverse effect if you played one?
Joan wrote: "Betsy wrote: "I found it interesting in Barbara Robinson's conversation with Holly ~ 40% where Barbara says how hard it is to be black, even a well-to-do black, in a white school = all the taunts a..."Great comment and insight, Joan, thanks.
Betsy wrote: "I have to admit that I have never had or have never played any electronic game.Is it true that these games do have a hypnotic effect, sometimes even causing mild seizures and come with warnings: ..."
Yes, I believe most video/computer games have that type of warning about photosensitivity and seizures somewhere hidden in their packaging. I don't know about hypnotic effects, though. Most games nowadays are too frenetic and non-repeating to induce a hypnotic state, I think. Old school games were much more pattern based with simpler graphics which I would think would be more likely, thus why King emphasized the old school nature of the Zappit. But there are world champion players who play old games like Donkey Kong, Pac-Man, and Asteroids for literally days non-stop.
The seizures caused by an episode of the Pokemon TV show is also real: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denn%C5....
Travis, Thanks for that helpful information! The Wikipedia article really got my attention!
Did all the Zappit technological stuff: how to amp up the demo screen, installing the stealth program, adding subliminal messaging, upgrading the Zappits, using "doss" to wipe-out a website, etc etc.distract you from the story ?
For me, it was a bit much but then, I'm not into technology so much.
I didn't find it distracting. When there is a bit too much detail that goes over my head I do one of two things: research or glaze. In this case I glazed. I take it as "truth" as far as this story goes and move on.
Something that bothered me: the fictional suicide site Zeetheend. If Brady wants to cause lots more suicides to make Hodges suffer, this could certainly do it.I assume that there are such sites. I would hope that they are monitored.... are they?
This could have turned into the suicide epidemic Brady wanted. Teens are so vulnerable and have such fragile self-images like Jane Ellsbury, Fat Jane, who at 20 weighed 320 lbs. and heard the voice from the Zappit, "Everyone laughs at you.... you'll never have a date.... better off w/out you."
Powerful message that would encourage suicidal behavior.
Does anyone know anything about the suicide rate among teens?
I do not; I guess that I should Google it.
I just wanted to add that IMO, the ending, SPOILERS !!!Brady at the hunting cabin, Hodges and Holly going there, is one of King's best endings; suspenseful and final.
I liked that: a. the storm played a part in it
b. Hodges sent Jerome home b/c he had a family who needed him, and I had no clue that Jerome would return.
c. Hodges' pain is becoming excruciating, but he manages to carry on and when he can't and stumbles and falls, Holly is there to help him.
d. Holly give Hodges her small glove to keep his gun hand warm.
They really ARE partners and that's all she ever wanted.
I found so much from ~86% on between H/H that I found extremely human and touching! Great characterization!
I enjoyed the books.
Probably my biggest "complaint" with this one - that may be too strong of a word, more like minor irritation is (view spoiler)
Matthew wrote: "Probably my biggest "complaint" with this one - that may be too strong of a word, more like minor irritation is [spoilers removed]"Me too! I'm glad you admitted that because I thought I was alone.
Since I will be off-line next week when kids/grandkids will be here for Arts Festival, there's only one more thing that I'd like to say in our discussion before I'm out of here:With pancreatic cancer, we knew it was just a matter of time for Hodges and 8 months later, Hodges is dead, although he outlived Hartswick.
I loved Holly's closing comments about her relationship w/ her friend/ partner Bill....
...." working with Bill were the happiest days of my life. I felt valued. I loved him." I did too!
Betsy wrote: "I just wanted to add that IMO, the ending, SPOILERS !!!Brady at the hunting cabin, Hodges and Holly going there, is one of King's best endings; suspenseful and final.
I liked that: a. the storm ..."
I agree, Betsy with the greatness of the climatic scenes. I was hoping that Jerome would come back but thought for a long time that he would call the Cops and Bill's old partner would ride in to the rescue at the very end.
Nick, Speaking of climatic scenes: how about the woodpile scene ~92% where Brady SPOILER with his Scargun smashes Holly's head and breaks Hodges' wrist. There is a fight, Holly has a gun , shoots Brady in the shoulder, Brady runs out the door and doesn't hear the monstrous Sno Cat which rolls over his midsection and chews him open, and then the gunshot. WOW ! WOW ! WOW!I'd say .... that was quite a great ending!
Betsy wrote: "Nick, Speaking of climatic scenes: how about the woodpile scene ~92% where Brady SPOILER with his Scargun smashes Holly's head and breaks Hodges' wrist. There is a fight, Holly has a gun , shoots B..."Absolutely!!
Betsy wrote: "Did all the Zappit technological stuff: how to amp up the demo screen, installing the stealth program, adding subliminal messaging, upgrading the Zappits, using "doss" to wipe-out a website, etc et..."I've never heard "denial of service" shortened and pronounced as "doss" but I am familiar with that type of attack. At first I thought they meant "doxing" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing).
None of the computer details bothered me since I am a software engineer. Otherwise I'm like Kandice about details I don't understand: skim and bear it or do some research. Part of the joy of reading is discovering new things from the books you were already reading.
Betsy wrote: "Something that bothered me: the fictional suicide site Zeetheend. If Brady wants to cause lots more suicides to make Hodges suffer, this could certainly do it.I assume that there are such sites. ..."
Those types of sites might be monitored in an attempt to intervene, but a) there's usually no way to track down the people posting anywhere on the Internet (not only anonymous posting but none of us want random people to track us down to our homes) and b) I don't think you can just have a web site taken down except in very extreme cases and even then most stuff is going to be protected by freedom of speech.
I didn't look up teen suicide rates but I already knew there was a problem in Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide...). There's even a movie, Suicide Club, about a fictional mass suicide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide...). This includes "One phenomenon that has been particularly concerning is that of Shinjū (suicide pacts) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinj%C...] that are formed among individuals, typically strangers, via Internet forums and messageboards. These pacts, which are popularly referred to as “Internet group suicide,” are formed with the intention of all individuals meeting to die by suicide at the same time, by the same method."
Teens have been influenced to suicide for ages. Just think about poor Romeo and Juliet!
Thanks, Travis, for all your helpful information !!
Don wrote: "I'm still 100 pages from finishing it, but somehow it feels this isn't a SK book at all. It's like it's been written by somebody else.Finders Keepers was awesome, but somehow this third book doesn..."
I've read others saying the same thing, some in a really ugly way. I didn't see it, though. I thought it was vintage SK and a fitting end to a fine trilogy.
Dennis, I agree w/ you on this one. Nick , I didn't find it bland, maybe not as suspenseful as I would have liked, and I wonder why you feel that it was written by someone else ? Dennis, I too, thought that the end was very fitting.SPOILER: I liked when Brady knows that he is dying and tells Hodges to shoot him, Hodges says, "You do it; it's what you always wanted" and he gives Brady the gun. "You do the rest yourself" and Brady pulls the trigger = gunshot to his brain. I felt that this is just the way the ending should have been.
Betsy wrote: "Dennis, I agree w/ you on this one. Nick , I didn't find it bland, maybe not as suspenseful as I would have liked, and I wonder why you feel that it was written by someone else ? Dennis, I too, tho..."Hey, Betsy... hope you're talking to another Nick because I never thought it was written by someone else... did I say that somewhere.
Oh, boy, so sorry, Nick ! Showing my age :( Nope, you never said that but Don did in message #130 and I got "confused". I thought that was a strange comment coming from you. Mea culpa !!
Betsy wrote: "Oh, boy, so sorry, Nick ! Showing my age :( Nope, you never said that but Don did in message #130 and I got "confused". I thought that was a strange comment coming from you. Mea culpa !!"I'm working so hard to get my new book out that I don't even know which way is up. I'm well into m reading of Joe Hill's THE FIREMAN though. I think you'd like it. At least so far.
A new book = HOW exciting !! Is this one part of your series, a stand alone ? Title? When do expect it to be finished? I know that it will be a good one!! Keep us up-to-date!
Betsy wrote: "A new book = HOW exciting !! Is this one part of your series, a stand alone ? Title? When do expect it to be finished? I know that it will be a good one!! Keep us up-to-date!"Thanks, Betsy... I'll send you that twenty dollar promotional fee I promised very soon. Just kidding. :-) It will be out next week if I can survive the process. Esteban's Quest. I'll post a comment about it on that thread called "shameless self-promotion."
Don wrote: "Actually, the last part was really strong, so it saved the book for me :) [SPOILER ALERT!!]
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I really liked the detail of how Brady killed himself... not actually pulling the trigger, bu..."
I think I felt so bad about Kermit that I went back and re-read Mr. Mercedes so that I could spend more time with the whole crew. As noted, it was much better in the re-read.
So, constant readers, do we think that this ending is one of King's best? I realize that readers have not always been happy w/ King endings, but, IMO, this one could not have ended any better. Thoughts?
I'm not sure I feel this is his best ending, but the fact there actually is an ending is pretty good for him! He so often just kind of trails off. I mentioned before that I think he simply had to let Hodges dies or he would have been tempted to keep writing the series forever.
I was really frustrated with this book. What I loved about the first two books was the complete absence of supernatural shenanigans, and this one went straight in that direction. It felt like a cop out, and it also felt quite dated. I don't know who King might have consulted with about the tech pieces, but I work with young adults and I find it hard to swallow that any of them would give a Zappit the time of day. Particularly when many of them have cellphones with much more advanced games. Overall, the whole thing, including the death, felt oddly cobbled together. This is one of King's novels I'm not really going to be able to recommend to others.
Esse wrote: "I was really frustrated with this book. What I loved about the first two books was the complete absence of supernatural shenanigans, and this one went straight in that direction. It felt like a cop..."I also loved that the first two books in this series did not have any supernatural happenings. I did not mind that it took a turn in the third one, however.
Kandice wrote: "I'm not sure I feel this is his best ending, but the fact there actually is an ending is pretty good for him! He so often just kind of trails off. I mentioned before that I think he simply had to l..."I agree! I was heartbroken that Hodges died, but it made the most sense.
I'm pretty sure that there are kids and young adults who would go for retro games like the ones on the Zappit, especially when they have hypnotic powers. And if the game users are really depressed they might fall for a come-on abut some kind of test. Retro games are still popular. I do agree big time about the turn toward the supernatural. that did bother me. I got used to it, but I wish he didn't have to resort to that. I wish he could have stayed with the realism of the previous books.
Betsy wrote: "So, constant readers, do we think that this ending is one of King's best? I realize that readers have not always been happy w/ King endings, but, IMO, this one could not have ended any better. Thou..."Betsy, I'm on board as saying this is the best ending I can remember from a Stephen King book. Not only did he finish the book well, but he wrapped up the trilogy in white knuckle fashion. I also like the technology included in this book. I posted in my review of End of Watch, the technology reminded me of the short story, Ur.
Travis wrote: "Betsy wrote: "Did all the Zappit technological stuff: how to amp up the demo screen, installing the stealth program, adding subliminal messaging, upgrading the Zappits, using "doss" to wipe-out a w..."Travis, my theory on using DoSS to refer to Denial of Service is because DOS is used for Disc Operating System.
Jimmie wrote: "Travis wrote: "Betsy wrote: "Did all the Zappit technological stuff: how to amp up the demo screen, installing the stealth program, adding subliminal messaging, upgrading the Zappits, using "doss" ..."Yeah, that confused me at first because that's actually I thought they were talking about until they spelled out denial of service. I wonder if real hackers say "doss", though. It feels like the friend I have who pronounces "IMHO" as a word when talking...
Just finished listening to the last 20 minutes of this book at work and I am CRYING. I cannot believe how fast this book went for me. So quick paced and interesting, I just flew through it. Such a great trilogy. Brady is one of the scariest characters I have ever come across. Total weirdo/psycho. Love Jerome, Holly and Hodges and are going to miss them a lot. I really enjoyed the change in genre in this trilogy.
Jamie wrote: "Just finished listening to the last 20 minutes of this book at work and I am CRYING. I cannot believe how fast this book went for me. So quick paced and interesting, I just flew through it. Such a ..."Do what I did, Jamie... re-read mister Mercedes.
Jamie wrote: "Just finished listening to the last 20 minutes of this book at work and I am CRYING. I cannot believe how fast this book went for me. So quick paced and interesting, I just flew through it. Such a ..."I cried too. It was fantastic reading this trilogy; and I think the ending was fitting. I didn't like it; but I understood it.
Late to the party but I am enjoying the beginning of this one very much!
Stephen King Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Raven: The Untold Story of the Rev. Jim Jones and His People (other topics)Dreamcatcher (other topics)
The only thing that I could find was ~ 66% when we're told that.... "Brady was fascinated with suicide at the age o..."
Right, of course, but why isn't there a clearer statement of these delusions of grandeur. Something that brings it all together... suicide, Jonestown, revenge, mass murders. I think King is trying hard not to overstate it... so he understates it by a little too much.