Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Interim Readings
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Mortimer Adler, How to Mark a Book
A Canadian author Heather J. Jackson has written two fascinating books about this topic-- writing in books.
I particularly like his comment about the speed of reading. It makes a great deal of sense to me. When I read certain works, I want to savor the words, especially with poetry.
Personal libraries are often for show-offs, then. Those of us who read digitally are left to show off our libraries on a Goodreads list.Writing notes in the margins of my Kindle books is cumbersome, I must say.
Zippy wrote: "Personal libraries are often for show-offs, then. Those of us who read digitally are left to show off our libraries on a Goodreads list.Writing notes in the margins of my Kindle books is cumberso..."
It did occur to me that he wrote in the age when all books were paper (were there audio books in 1941? If so, I doubt that they were of the sort of books Adler is referring to.) I wonder what he would have thought of e-readers and e-books.
What Adler doesn't address - and to be fair, this wasn't his focus - is that books used to be so much more expensive if we adjust for inflation. Buying a book used to be an event! This in itself contributed to our hesitancy to mark them up or run roughshod over them. When I grew up, my dad showed me how to turn pages and that we should enjoy them but to take care not to mar them.
Part of this "neat-freak" is still with me. I will underline and make notes in the margins, but I underline with the help of a plastic bookmark that doubles as a ruler... :)
Zippy wrote: "Personal libraries are often for show-offs, then. Those of us who read digitally are left to show off our libraries on a Goodreads list.Writing notes in the margins of my Kindle books is cumberso..."
I think of this very short essay by Umberto Eco whenever I lament the number of unread books on my shelves: How to Justify a Private Library
I have a very hard time reading "serious" books on an e-reader, not because it's hard to make notes but because it's hard to access them. Flipping pages is just so much easier.
Our local university, the University of Toronto, is comprised of many colleges. Each fall four of the biggest and oldest colleges have used book sales, all on different weekends. I go absolutely crazy buying books--many of them are out of print, very old and on interesting topics. Each year I donate the books I have read that are not "keepers", otherwise it would become impossible to find anything. The prices are low, overall. It is always interesting when a professor donates books due to retirement. Many sets of complete works by various authors are available, but I can resist those. Not that many books actually have marginalia, but occasionally interesting bookmarks or newspaper clippings get left behind in the books. I also like the books with personal inscriptions inside or with the date and location of purchase.
Zippy wrote: "Personal libraries are often for show-offs, then. Those of us who read digitally are left to show off our libraries on a Goodreads list.Writing notes in the margins of my Kindle books is cumberso..."
I hear you. I gave up writing notes on e-books. I wish Amazon would consider that issue. I have a little notebook that I have for making notes on the ebooks I read.
Rosemarie wrote: "Our local university, the University of Toronto, is comprised of many colleges. Each fall four of the biggest and oldest colleges have used book sales, all on different weekends. I go absolutely cr..."I love finding personal inscriptions or ephemera in second-hand books I get as well. There's an interesting book called S. by J.J.Abrams and Doug Dorst where writing notes on a library book led to some strange discoveries.. On the other hand, I abhor writings on library books, because unlike the personal writings on second hand books, they were not personal books but 'public' books from the beginning and shows people's lack of respect for public property. For library books, books that I borrow from friends and some books that I just feel guilty to write on (like books that are too beautiful or too fragile), I use post-its to write notes. The post-its work great as bookmarks as well.
I didn't grow up marking books, and putting a pen to the page of a book is still difficult for me. Nevertheless, I by and large agree with Adler. I find I digest texts, particularly difficult texts, better by annotating them as extensively as I can let myself. This is one reason there are certain books--most recently, Charles Taylor's Sources of the Self--for which I really need to buy a hard copy if I'm going to fully experience and absorb it. Plus, it makes rereads a lot more enjoyable and paves the way for a deeper look.
There is a disturbing trend in our libraries right now. Writing in library books is annoying, especially hightlighter or ink is used. But some users have very carefully cut the illustrations out of books. I read a book about which was an overview of art and architecture over the centuries and all of the colour plates had been removed. I studied literature in university and will occasionally come across notes that I jotted down,ususally next to poems. It is an eerie feeling looking at something that I wrote decades ago.
Thomas wrote: "I have a very hard time reading "serious" books on an e-reader, not because it's hard to make notes but because it's hard to access them. Flipping pages is just so much easier. "On this subject, I think it is easy to forget that books and kindle are two different mediums. From the beginning there was this silly juxtaposition of "either/or", when in reality the usage is more of a "both/and", i.e., for pleasure reading, entertainment novels, etc. it's the kindle. For learning, reference, etc., books.
Re highlighting and writing in eBooks: I use iBooks and find this quite doable. When I participate in a group read, I will many times use a separate color for each week/section of the reading schedule. I will make notes to trigger my thoughts and main thought of the highlight. I can then scroll through the notes/highlights section and make my comment.
I am not saying it is easier in an eBook, just that it is doable. I also borrow eBooks from the public library and read them through OverDrive. Then I do not make notes or highlight, even though it is possible to do so.
I agree with the rest of you that it is not appropriate to highlight or write in library books. Also, I like to start in a "clean" book and do my highlighting and note taking. I know my learning style and find this very effective for understanding and retention.
Thomas wrote: I have a very hard time reading "serious" books on an e-reader, not because it's hard to make notes but because it's hard to access them. Flipping pages is just so much easier."
This is my experience, too. Not only the problem of accessing notes, but that it's more complicated to just go back and check something a few pages back.
OTOH, I do love the search feature of an e-book. Which is why, for discussions here, I generally read the "real" book, but also have the Gutenberg or equivalent text up in a tab on my browser to be able to search easily and cut and paste passages of interest.
Rex wrote: "This is one reason there are certain books--most recently, Charles Taylor's Sources of the Self--for which I really need to buy a hard copy if I'm going to fully experience and absorb it. ."I agree with this. I find that annotating the standard glued back paperback is a real challenge, and usually not worth the effort. So while I buy paperbacks for recreational reading, for serious books I try to get hardback copies, at least when they're available (increasingly they aren't; more and more books come out initially in paperback and never in hardback.) Usually I can get a clean used hardback of a book for about the same cost as a new paperback, and I'll always go with the hardback.
Which does raise one issue: heavily annotated copies of books are very hard to sell used, and libraries don't want them as donations, so while extensive annotations make the copy more valuable for you, they also make them basically unmarketable for your heirs.
Kerstin wrote: "... in reality the usage is more of a "both/and", i.e., for pleasure reading, entertainment novels, etc. it's the kindle. For learning, reference, etc., books. ..."My experience exactly.
Everyman wrote: "Which does raise one issue: heavily annotated copies of books are very hard to sell used, and libraries don't want them as donations, so while extensive annotations make the copy more valuable for you, they also make them basically unmarketable for your heirs. "I don't worry too much about that. If the family wants to keep some of them for sentimental value, I am flattered. Otherwise, they have served their purpose, just like any other household items no longer of use.
We shouldn't confuse the contents of books with the tangible form. Shakespeare's work will not be lost to civilization only because my copy will no longer be of interest to anyone.
Borum wrote: "There's an interesting book called S. by J.J.Abrams and Doug Dorst where writing notes on a library book led to some strange discoveries.."Has anyone here read S.? I have a copy but haven't got round to reading it yet. It is certainly impressively produced and looks intriguing, but I wonder how it would stand up to close scrutiny.
Patrice, I am really enjoying your comments about how you read. Most of the comments I wrote in books were taken in class. I wrote my own ideas on separate sheets of paper, and I agree that post-it notes are a great invention. I sometimes used photocopies of library books and made copious notes on them.I remember teaching a class of 12 years old how to high light and make notes. It is not that easy. I have had books fall apart as I was reading them, in fact, that is happening to one of the books I am reading right now. I have held a book together with a rubber band so that I wouldn't lose any pages.
The absolute worst case is a missing last page, which actually happened to me with a library book. And it was the only copy in the whole library system.
Adler takes marking-up books to a whole new level for me when he mentions placing outlines in the front and even more notes in the back. All of these are retained in one neat package, the book itself. There is a real elegance to this.I've also been thinking along the lines on how we learn. The more senses are involved, the better we retain things.
David wrote: "Borum wrote: "There's an interesting book called S. by J.J.Abrams and Doug Dorst where writing notes on a library book led to some strange discoveries.."Has anyone here read S.? I have a copy but..."
I did. Very interesting concept, but I was a bit disappointed with it in the end.
I agree with Adler that the act of taking notes and making outlines greatly improves learning, even if you never refer to them again. There's a kind of kinesthetic learning that goes on. I make a point of writing Goodreads reviews of the books I read, not because I imagine that anyone will ever read them, but to fix in my mind what I have learned. I am a college teacher, and I recommend such notetaking to my students. Taking notes on a notebook computer does not work nearly as well, from what I understand.
As a retired language teacher and new language learner, I always made notes by hand and told the students the same thing. To learn vocabulary and irregular verb tenses, copying is a great way to learn.If you are doing research and planning a paper, notes are great. If I want to remember anything, I write it down--even if I don't actually refer to the note again.
Kerstin wrote: "I've also been thinking along the lines on how we learn."Coincidentally, there was an article today in the Seattle Times on "Deeper Learning."
http://www.seattletimes.com/education...
There's not a whole lot of meat in it, but one phrase that Adler would have completely agreed with is that with deeper learning, students “create knowledge, rather than receive knowledge,”
Everyman wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "I've also been thinking along the lines on how we learn."Coincidentally, there was an article today in the Seattle Times on "Deeper Learning."
http://www.seattletimes.com/educatio..."
Thanks for posting the article.
What struck me, is that they mentioned multiple choice tests, which are so prevalent here. When I grew up in Germany, that was unheard of. We had to answer test questions in our own words. We would have thought of multiple choice as akin to cheating, since one of the answers is the correct one, and you would have to know just enough to get by by elimination - never mind actually knowing the subject matter.
I am not a professional teacher, but it seems to me that there is a correlation between the absorption/deeper learning of the subject matter and how it is being tested.
Kerstin wrote: "I am not a professional teacher, but it seems to me that there is a correlation between the absorption/deeper learning of the subject matter and how it is being tested. ."Oh, absolutely. (And I was a professional teacher!)
The other thing that make me nuts is this movement for forcing kids to explain their mathematics thinking in English. This is all driven by verbal thinkers, not by mathematicians. Mathematics IS a language all its own. You would ask somebody to explain in mathematical language how they come to the conclusion that Emma is a great novel. Why the reverse? Mathematically brilliant students who know how they got the answer mathematically are often inartful in trying to put that answer into English, and so get a bad grade when they are much more knowledgeable about the subject than students who can write well.
Back to Adler, one of the things that really struck me in the essay was his distinction between physical possession of a book and true ownership of it. I look at my library and realize that of the 12,000 or so books on our home shelves, I probably only own by Adler's definition at most 3,000 of them. That's maybe not as bad as it sounds; since my teaching and legal careers were both before the time of the Internet I have a huge collection of reference materials which I will never own in the Adlerean sense. Then I have a goodish collection of mysteries gathered during my bachelor years when, since I didn't own a TV, reading for hours in the evening (and for more hours in bed) let me devour hundreds of paperbacks inbetween my more serious reading. My wife has several thousand children's books collected over her 30 years of teaching first grade, not to mention raising three children as avid readers. Then there are the books I've bought but haven't gotten around to reading yet; they're still on my ever growing tbr list. It's sobering, though, to think of the number of books on my shelves that I will probably never truly own.
Although Adler doesn't say so explicitly, it seems to me that he is a strong believer in re-reading. Did others see this in the essay?
I taught in middle schools as a substitute teacher for both short and long terms, so I had a wide variety of experiences as a teacher and as an observer of other teachers. In my mind, the best way for a student to show their understanding of the material read is to rewrite it in their own words or to organize it in note form. Short answer questions show if the students know the material. Long answer questions are the next level -- they show the ability to organize and analyze.
The reason many teachers use multiple choice questions is that they are easy to mark. Mind you, mutiple choice questions can be difficult and require thinking if they are written that way. One word can make the difference between right and wrong.
Re: rereading. There are some books I know that I am going to reread, the classics, the classical writers, philosophy, poetry, etc.
Other books, whether fiction or non-fiction, are a one-time read. If I have really, really enjoyed a book, I am apprehensive about reading it again. I do not want to disappointed in case I don't enjoy it as much as the first time. The length of the book is another deciding factor.
Rosemarie wrote: "...Other books, whether fiction or non-fiction, are a one-time read...."I've reached a point in my life where one of my rules about book selection is to attempt to select primarily (only? well, not quite) books worthy of reading again, even if time and interest will not permit that to happen.
I don't always succeed. But if a book contributes one idea to my life, it may well have been a worthy acquaintance.
Everyman wrote: "It's sobering, though, to think of the number of books on my shelves that I will probably never truly own.Adler makes a good starting argument. I am wondering, however, if the word 'own' is really too limiting in terms how we use books. How about if we take this a little further, and substitute the words 'appreciate', 'value', or 'function.'
For example, I have all sorts of dishes in the house. But they are not all the same. There is the functional everyday type, and if something breaks, no big harm is done. In addition I have some nicer ones for use on special occasions, and a couple of sets that were passed down in the family and are at this point 100+ years old. These I only use on rare occasions and my appreciation and usage of them is on a different level than the other two.
Coming back to Adler and books, the ones he says I truly 'own' are the "workhorses" and serve a different function from other books I own, say, the picture books and paperbacks I have deliberately put in our guest bedroom.
Patrice wrote: "To see my grandchildren devour my children's books makes me so happy. Devour them, yes! They chew them up and make them a part of themselves. Adler would approve. "When our boys were little, my husband read them "Where the Wild Things Are" every night. And when he came to the part "let the wild rumpus begin," they wrestled on the bed. The boys loved it. The book survived this only for so long and I had to replace it.
Patrice, that is a lovely story about the Willa Cather book. It is always a special book when a book reaches us in some way. I love to travel and love to visit places where my favourite fictional characters are found. We went to Trieste for two reasons-- the first because it was beautiful, the second because Italo Svevo's Xeno lived there.
When you talking about well-loved children's books I thought about my younger daughter who loved the Mercer Mayer story Me, Too because she wanted to do everything her older sister did.
For me, books are an important part of my memories. I have reread books at different ages and got something different out of them each time.
Patrice wrote: "I have the great courses music CDs and I find it frustrating when Greenberg explains each piece. I just want to listen to the music, not his explanations."I felt exactly the same way. All that technical stuff about the structure of the pieces bored me almost silly.
Patrice wrote: "Recently my son asked for them for his three children, 11. 6, and 2. I've been bringing them 10 books a week. I was surprised by how hesitant I was to part with them. But what a joy it's been to see them in use!"I get the benefit of both worlds. Our grandchildren live next door, so they are here up in the library (the children's books live in the balcony area of my library) almost every day reading them or being read to. So we get the joy of seeing them in use while not having to part with them.
Rosemarie wrote: " There are some books I know that I am going to reread, the classics, the classical writers, philosophy, poetry, etc.Other books, whether fiction or non-fiction, are a one-time read."
Bacon strikes again.
Kerstin wrote: "The book survived this only for so long and I had to replace it."A book that is read into the ground is forever magical. I have a few of those. I have replaced many of them with newer, more readable copies, but the old falling apart ones will also stay on the shelves forever because they have memories the new copies will never achieve.
Everyman wrote: "I get the benefit of both worlds. Our grandchildren live next door, so they are here up in the library (the children's books live in the balcony area of my library) almost every day reading them or being read to. So we get the joy of seeing them in use while not having to part with them. "Everyman, this is beautiful beyond words.
Everyman wrote: " I look at my library and realize that of the 12,000 or so books on our home shelves, I probably only own by Adler's definition at most 3,000 of them. ."My goodness gracious... to have read and absorbed so much! I've only been reading regularly the last 9 or so years, and I look back with regret at the previous 18 years when I could have been reading, when I had so much extra time that could have been spent reading... now with having one little one and the prospect of more kids in the future, I wonder how I'll ever get to a point where I have even read most of the books in my Great Books collection... let alone "owning them."
He seems broadly to assume we are talking about non-fiction books for the most part in his essay. I think like most of us here, I sort of automatically applied his thoughts to fiction as well as I read the essay.I had my proper conversion to book defacement of this sort while reading The English Patient a few weeks ago. Almost every page of my copy now has notes in it. It helps that it is a book I read before a long time ago and have seen the film adaptation every time. So there was more reason to work through it slowly.
But the main thing was just how much I enjoyed the process, engaging with the text like that felt almost like being a conspiracy theorist or detective combing through the coincidences in the language and plot. It was really quite thrilling and makes me want to re-read more books.
Perhaps there is a subconscious element to it as well. One of the central symbols of The English Patient is the eponymous patient's copy of The Histories in which he has written notes, scribbled journal entries, edited pages and stuck in maps and sheets of lined paper.
My daughter told me she can't read my books due to all the graffiti. ;-)
Adelle wrote: "My daughter told me she can't read my books due to all the graffiti. ;-)"LOL! I understand where your daughter is coming from. If she is like me, she needs to make her own "graffiti." Though I think graffiti is too strong of a word and notes, notations, and highlights better describe what you have put in your books.
When I was in college, there were students who liked textbooks with highlights. It showed them what was important. I prefer to make that determination myself, plus how do I know they were right! Marking up a book is part of my learning style. I even find myself re-highlighting during a re-read as it helps in grasping what was said and in grappling with the text.
Brit wrote:
LOL! I understand where your daughter is coming from. If she is like me, she needs to make her own "graffit..."
;-) Quite. The studies that seem to show that physical writing aids memory. The physicality of highlighting and making margin notes help me connect with what I'm reading . And in re-reading, shows me where I had engaged previously, so I know faster where my focus is.
LOL! I understand where your daughter is coming from. If she is like me, she needs to make her own "graffit..."
;-) Quite. The studies that seem to show that physical writing aids memory. The physicality of highlighting and making margin notes help me connect with what I'm reading . And in re-reading, shows me where I had engaged previously, so I know faster where my focus is.
Brit wrote: " Though I think graffiti is too strong of a word and notes, notations, and highlights better describe what you have put in your books.."Well, since we are a classics group it may be fair to interpret the term graffiti in its classical sense. At that time it didn't imply vandalism, but just meant notes or comment carved into walls or rocks or such. Could be political, could be love poems, could be almost anything. Simply comes from the term for writing.
Brit wrote: "Marking up a book is part of my learning style. I even find myself re-highlighting during a re-read as it helps in grasping what was said and in grappling with the text. ."Totally Adlerian. I agree that marking is part of the learning process. Unmarked books are in a way only partially read books, aren't they?
Apparently In the 18th & 19th centuries it was the custom to write in the margins of books. "Marginalia" is a thing.https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.co...
If it was good enough for Jefferson and Newton. . .
I couldn't bring myself to mark a book until I learned the value of doing so in college level textbooks. The marks discovered in used books were often prophetic of key test questions. I still have an aversion to marking up imaginary literature books, but I am much less inhibited in marking up non-fiction or expository books. However, I really like highlighting quotes and taking notes on any type of Kindle editions since it makes it easy to review books I have read in one place and does not give me the sense that I have "ruined" a physical piece of art.
There are times when I talk out loud to an author when I am reading his/ her book. I try not to do this on the subway. There are times when I am truly tempted to comment in library books, but I refrain, since I really don't like it when other people do it.
I like to buy second hand books and I can tell when the book has been part of a course reading, especially in foreign language books. The notes are quite thorough at the beginning and slowly or quickly become fewer and fewer as the book progresses.
Sometimes though...
Well, for myself, when reading fiction, I often make notes thoroughly in the first few chapters as I believe that the beginning information is vitally important in understanding the story. But later, when I've become absorbed in the book, I take fewer and fewer notes. I just want to hurry through. "Tell me more! Tell me more! What happens next? "
Well, for myself, when reading fiction, I often make notes thoroughly in the first few chapters as I believe that the beginning information is vitally important in understanding the story. But later, when I've become absorbed in the book, I take fewer and fewer notes. I just want to hurry through. "Tell me more! Tell me more! What happens next? "
Adelle wrote: "...But later, when I've become absorbed in the book, I take fewer and fewer notes. I just want to hurry through...."I can relate!
Now, when we get to our upcoming read, I don't know where I am going to be! I have been listening on forward and my reactions have been all over the place (well beyond the middle of the book) -- from "you gotta be kidding me" to "that certainly isn't what I recall encountering from Ignatius. You mean I'm going to have to go digging if I want to understand/quibble? Is it going to be worth it? Do I really care that much?"
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Can't We Talk about Something More Pleasant?: A Memoir (other topics)The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History (other topics)
The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had (other topics)
How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading (other topics)
The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Roz Chast (other topics)Susan Wise Bauer (other topics)
Many of you will know of, or have read, Mortimer Adler's How to Read a Book. It's a staple of college reading lists, and is on the Goodreads "A Short Syllabus for Life Books." http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/a...
But no, don't worry, it's not our latest Interim Read. What is our current Interim Read is a brief essay by Adler he titled "How to Mark a Book." In it he makes a strong case for writing in (and only only in, but all over) your books. Serious books, that is, not recreational fiction.
I know, some -- many? -- readers think it's sacrilege to write in a book. And if it's a library book, it is. But give Adler a chance and he just might make you think a little more seriously about the values of writing in your books.
So read away:
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/adler...