Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Interim Readings
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Mortimer Adler, How to Mark a Book
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Alias Reader wrote: "I always recommend this book and How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading..."See Message 1? ;-o
Alias Reader wrote: "...The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History. I have 7 pages of notes...."Very plausible for that one! A book that personally I believe we should all read, at least part of, or another that deals with issues it addresses.
Rosemarie wrote: "There are times when I talk out loud to an author when I am reading his/ her book. ."Don't we all? (It took awhile for my wife to get used to my talking to my books, especially when I was reading in bed, but she's used to it now and it doesn't faze her except when I get loudly heated.)
After all, Adler makes the point that true reading is a conversation.
Kerstin wrote: "When I grew up, my dad showed me how to turn pages and that we should enjoy them but to take care not to mar them. .."You make good points. I teach my children how to respect books too. But as you said, the value of the book affects how it is treated.
We have some great full-colour illustrated coffee table size books. We handle those books with care, and markings would be completely innappropriate.
One evening as my 6yo daughter was "reading" through a chapter book (some Roald Dahl or something from the Narnia series), she noticed that the very front page was blank... and decided they really should be illustrated.Being a low quality paperback book I did not hesitate to allow her to illustrate it - and she did with a picture that reflected the story of the book (which she knew so well).
I want to add one more thing. Very often I will read a book (and mark it) and then pass it on to my friends... and they will mark it as well! We love reading each others marks. In fact one day I even bought a book for a friend and decided to pre-read it... I marked it too! She loved it, including the marks.
Cass wrote: "One evening as my 6yo daughter was "reading" through a chapter book (some Roald Dahl or something from the Narnia series), she noticed that the very front page was blank... and decided they really ..."That's a delightful story! This afternoon my six year old (just) granddaughter came down and was lying on the floor with three books in front of her "reading" them. Actually, what she does is look at the pictures as she turns the pages and make up amazingly creative stories to go along with the pictures, using the same general tone of voice that parents and grandparents use in reading them. She is beyond cute!
Grandchildren are the reward of parenthood. And a rich reward it is, indeed.
Oh my girls do the same, and I love it.My 6yo is just learning to read, so will often "read aloud" to me, of course my 4yo has to do the same. It makes for the most fun stories.
It is funny (and off-topic) that in school the kids are taught "comprehension". It flabbergasted me for a while until I realised that when kids read a book out-loud they are often so focused on the words, that they do not notice the story at all... If that is the only exposure that the kid has to books, then they can hardly be blamed for not understanding them.
Contrast with kids who are heavily exposed (like I imagine the kids related to those on this forum), and the comprehension exercises given in schools seem ridiculous. I notice that whenever my 6yo is stuck on a word (focused on the word not the sentence or the meaning) it is my 4yo from across the room who will pipe up with a suitable word... very often correct... based entirely on her 'comprehension' of the sentence.
Children who are exposed to books and language rich in vocabulary have a distinct advantage when they start school. It is wonderful that your children, Cass, and your grandchildren, Everyman, have so much fun "reading". My grandson, who is five, tells me stories when I am driving him home from our house. It is a fifteen minute drive and he talks the whole way. His mother works in a library and does the children's programs so she chooses good books for him to read--and she always buys books for his cousins.
Cass wrote: "Oh my girls do the same, and I love it.My 6yo is just learning to read, so will often "read aloud" to me, of course my 4yo has to do the same. It makes for the most fun stories..."
Haha. I learned to read with Green Eggs and Ham. Over and over again. After awhile, I went around the house reciting that poem to my brother with absolutely no book in hand. I would become furious when he told me that wasn't "reading."
I have to say I love Green Eggs and Ham, the book. With my grandson it was Go, Dog, Go.
Patrice, I have to admit that I am a big Harry Potter fan. My daughter Victoria, who is now in her thirties, has all the books. We have the first book in English, Irish and Latin. I have only read the English version.The books remind of the books I used to read as a child. I still love reading children's literature. As for marking books, the black and white illustrations in the Golden Books were irresistable for colouring.
I always wanted to have magic powers, but that is not the main reason. Harry is an underdog. Before he discovered he had magic powers, his life was horrible. He lived with his aunt, uncle and cousin--the Dursleys. And then his life changed, but he had many, many trials and tribulations. Each book is a year in his life, and the books get darker. There is the battle versus good and evil, the characters are entertaining and the plots are exciting, and there is some humour as well. That being said, some of the later books need some serious editing. The series ended with no unpleasant surprises, because you do get attached to the characters, and there was a rumour that one of the three main characters dies.
The female character, Hermione, loves to read and spends a lot of time in the library, as well as being the smartest of the three.
I read the first Harry Potter book just to see what it was all about. It took me back to my childhood and the land of fairytales. It was an easy, enjoyable read, but one book was enough. Either I had outgrown fairytales or my taste has changed. I suspect a little of both. I can still pick up fairytales and enjoy them, but only a few at a time.
Tastes definitely do change over time, that is certainly true.When I was studying German literature I preferred Hermann Hesse to Thomas Mann. Rereading Hesse and Mann now, I have reversed my opinion completely and understand what our professor meant. Reading Hesse's Glasperlenspiel (Glass Bead Game) was an endurance test for me, unlike the works of Mann, who much more depth and substance than Hesse.
Good choice. J.K. Rowling follows in the footsteps of Dickens by giving her characters interesting names. For example, Lupin is a werewolf and Sirius Black can transform into a dog.
The Harry Potter movies are very entertaining and have contributed to the popularity of the books. The cast of actors is impressive and the films are well-crafted.I find that I enjoy reading Dickens more than I used to, for relaxation. I was a substitute teacher in middle schools for 19 years and there was only a handful of students that I can see reading Dickens for fun.
Ashley wrote: "Haha. I learned to read with Green Eggs and Ham. Over and over again. After awhile, I went around the house reciting that poem to my brother with absolutely no book in hand."With our girls it was Nightgown of the Sullen Moon. They had it totally memorized. I remember once we were at a children's play in Seattle waiting for it to start and they, identical 3 year old twins looking adorable in their lovely pink dresses, had the book open on their laps and were reading it aloud, turning the pages at the right points and looking totally studious and absorbed in the book. People were grabbing glimpses over their shoulders as they walked past and would see them actually reading the right words on the right pages and look very impressed.
I read and loved the Harry Potter series. I re-read it occasional when I am not feeling well (it is like a good chicken soup, not the kind of food you want at a restaurant, but perfect for when you are not feeling up to much).
Regarding Harry Potter, it's also worth pointing out that the writing of the first book or two is vastly inferior to most of the rest of the series, which I read in my late teens (this despite the bloatedness of the last several volumes). Rowling is never a particularly literary author, to be honest, but she's intelligent and a remarkably entertaining storyteller. As Rosemarie notes, she has a Dickensian gift for characterization, and as the series goes on, I think she manages to build in a lot of depth. That said, I'm unlikely to ever read through the whole series again unless my children take to them.
Rex wrote: "Regarding Harry Potter, it's also worth pointing out that the writing of the first book or two is vastly inferior to most of the rest of the series, which I read in my late teens (this despite the ..."Her writing is uneven, but the interest in Harry Potter created a new era of growth for children's literature by inspiring a new generation of children' authors. Twilight did the same for teens but I have not read any of that type of book. I like fantasy when I want to relax and take a break.
Patrice wrote: "Everyman wrote: "Ashley wrote: "Haha. I learned to read with Green Eggs and Ham. Over and over again. After awhile, I went around the house reciting that poem to my brother with absolutely no book ..."Green Eggs and Ham is a very easy read Dr. Seuss book which starts:
Sam I am
I am Sam
I do not like green eggs and ham
Patrice wrote: "I never heard of that book before. I looked it up and I think I have to get it for my grandkids, or is it for myself? ."Both.
Just wanted to pop in here to say I read this when it was posted and really enjoyed the article. I ordered How To Read a Book from the library as well. Looking forward to it.I have a whole wall of text to say about the article but for now, anyway, I'll spare you. :) I would, rather, like to ask the folks here about a set of 54 books that our local used bookstore has for sale for about 75USD. Great Books of the Western World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_B...
Has anyone got it? I suppose it seems like a good deal at that price but all of the books are available for free online - including the Syntopicon which I have already downloaded from the Internet Archive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Synto...
From what I have read in reviews, the translations for this set are quite bad, so I don't know how useful they would be. I do already have plenty of fine lovely leather bound Franklin Mint "Great Books" some of which I haven't even opened yet, but I love them when I do read one on an ereader then have the beautiful dead tree book to browse through later. If there is any rule about buying stuff from used book stores it ought to be "don't buy more books than you can carry". :) Still I am tempted.
Does anyone recommend this set?
The reason I ask in this thread is that the Syntopicon (the second volume which is like the "key to all great ideas") was written by Mortimer Adler.
Theresa wrote: " would, rather, like to ask the folks here about a set of 54 books that our local used bookstore has for sale for about 75USD. Great Books of the Western World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_B...Has anyone got it? ."
I actually have the second edition, which is 60 volumes. As you note, all the texts in the first edition are in the public domain and easily accessible on line or in e-books. Even though I do use both a Kindle and a Nook, there is something special about reading books as books, especially classic texts. However, the translations in the first edition are indeed not always the best, and while some in the second edition are better, there are also better translations that have come out since then. Though of course the works in English are as they are, and
Even the 1st edition is a nice set to have, though there is lot in it that you'll never read (most of the scientific texts, for example; I doubt that you'll ever read Euclid, Newton, Huygens, etc.) But if you can get a 2nd edition (60 volumes) at a reasonable cost, I think it would do you better than the first.
Another factor is that there are absolutely no notes, introductions, etc. It is raw text, period. Most of the newer editions of these works from Penguin, Oxford, Modern Library, Barnes and Noble Classics, Norton, Everyman, etc. have supplemental material which can be useful if you like that.
Basically, assuming you would probably read at most half and more likely a third of the volumes, you need to decide whether the money is better spent getting a really nice set of those works that are a pleasure to read and a pleasure to have on the shelf even when you aren't reading them, or whether your money would be betters spent getting good fairly modern editions (secondhand is fine if they're good copies; after all the GB set is second hand) of the ones as you get to reading them. I admit that I do like having the books on the shelf, and it's nice to be able to go over to them to check passages, but I also admit that at times I have bought modern editions even when I have a work in the GB because of a better translation or useful supplemental materials (for example the Knox introduction to the Fagles translation of the Iliad is worth the cost of the book, even though I prefer reading the Lattimore translation in the GB series to the Fagles).
And after all that, I've probably just confused you more than enlightened you.
Patrice wrote: "I don't have it but I always wanted it and if it were me I'd get it. Do you know how much it cost new? A lot! LolI do have a very old set of great books from Harvard. I think Charles Eliot was the..."
Thanks!
Everyman wrote: "Theresa wrote: " would, rather, like to ask the folks here about a set of 54 books that our local used bookstore has for sale for about 75USD. Great Books of the Western World https://en.wikipedia...."
Thanks. Not confusing at all. Very unlikely a second edition will turn up in our small town used bookstore. Ordering such a set online would have expensive shipping costs. I will go give them a closer look during the week.
Theresa wrote: "...I will go give them a closer look during the week...."Theresa -- As one who both struggles with keeping her many well-loved possessions in order and cherishes the fact that she has not endured the lack of material things associated with the '30's depression that her family knew, I'll suggest adding one more consideration to your decision making -- do you want to shelve, store, move, perhaps someday dispose of these books (or even leave them for someone else to deal with)?
Yesterday I was watching a TV show of a young couple in perhaps their thirties having a "tiny house" -- a minuscule number of square feet (of the order of a NYC studio apt) being built for them overlooking a grand vista of western U.S. mountains. The wife had escaped the forest fire that consumed their prior home with only the few belongings she could hasten into her car. She stated that with that experience behind her, she now understood the freedom of not having things and wanted to keep her life that way. While I'll never be her, as I listen to friends and read books like the National Book Award nominee Roz Chast's Can't We Talk..., I increasingly become aware of the burdens and responsibilities of things as well as their privileges.
Lily wrote: "Theresa wrote: "...I will go give them a closer look during the week...."Theresa -- As one who both struggles with keeping her many well-loved possessions in order and cherishes the fact that she..."
Yes, the getting of books is one thing; the letting go, quite another!
However, of the "things" one might have collected over the years, photos and books are high on the list of keeping.
Theresa wrote: "However, of the "things" one might have collected over the years, photos and books are high on the list of keeping. ..."[Pensive smile] You are not my friend who a) had a significant house fire, and b) had to clear her academic mother's collection of books and papers. (I spent more than a few hours searching the web for techniques for best recovering some different types of scorched materials and experimented with the more probable sounding recommendations.) Books are a) heavy and b) usually return small value -- but that is usually of small consideration if one can afford them in the first place, whether used or new. The biggest problem I find is storage -- I don't like to let my "external memory banks" go.
Indeed, they are heavy. As to storage, well if you've got a wall, and 12 inches of space out from it, and are willing to live without pictures and mirrors on the walls, and can afford some bookshelves, you've got storage right there. The storage problem, for me, is that the books don't stay on the shelves - they wander off the shelves, like gremlins in the night, and wind up in piles all over the place :D
Theresa wrote: "As to storage, well if you've got a wall, and 12 inches of space out from it, and are willing to live without pictures and mirrors on the walls..."I remember the year my son helped me convert that wall in what had been his bedroom with bookshelves and my sense that surely now all my books could be on shelves.....
Theresa wrote: ". The storage problem, for me, is that the books don't stay on the shelves - they wander off the shelves, like gremlins in the night, and wind up in piles all over the place :D .."It's nice to hear that someone else has that problem. My friends were horrified to see my young children crawling over piles of (childrens) books. But it was impossible to keep them on the shelves in any kind of orderly fashion - if I actually wanted them to read them (I mean, I could have made them special things that they weren't allowed to touch, and we do indeed do that with the more special books of their collection, but if we did it with all their books I doubt that would be so engaged with reading as they are now). I had to accept the fact that some books are not physically special, and are destined for destruction from being over loved.
Cass and Theresa: Lovely to know that there are books who are just sprouting all over the place like mine do, ah ah. My husband asked for a Sunday afternoon's task: the whole family checks the cars(!), the living room, the bathrooms, the kitchen counter, etc. and everyone must pick up his/her books and magazines and organize it at his/her own room. So we can walk without drowning in books all over the place, ahah.But I think that there is another advantage to reading the paper editions: your children see you reading actual books and they learn from your example. After all, for a three or five years old, if mom has the iPad in hands, how can he/she know that mom is playing Candy Crush or reading The Brothers Karamazov... Of course, now that they are ten and twelve years old and they are good readers, I do not have this excuse anymore...
Back in college, I could only ever afford used textbooks and sometimes an edition or two before the one the class was actually using. Since I usually paid under $10 for these books, I wrote and highlighted all over them. I did at times run out of space and use a notebook as well, but, I would stick the loose page right into the relevant chapter. It worked very well for me. I'm actually writing in a book right now. I purchased the book "1001 Children's Books You Must Read Before You Grow Up" and I write notes in the margins when we've completed reading a listed book. I have a 5 year old daughter and the book will be for her, complete with her thoughts on the books when we read them. The book has thin, glossy pages and it took a bit of experimenting to find a pen which wouldn't smear or bleed through.
My daughter also has a favorite book, "National Geographic's Prehistoric Mammals" and I've made several notes in that one for her to read later.
Most of the books I read don't really need notes in the margins. However, I always buy used books and not overly valuable books, so, if the fancy strikes I'm not concerned about writing in any of them. They are already not on their first reader anyway. :)
I've read a few other of Mortimer Adler's essays, but hadn't seen this one before. One day I will get around to reading his Synoptican of Great Books. It's sitting up on my shelf waiting for me. I have a 5 year old daughter, so, I'm going to enjoy my time steeped in kid lit for as long as I can.
Long time lurker, hope you guys don't mind me dropping in for a comment. :)
Jennifer wrote: "Long time lurker, hope you guys don't mind me dropping in for a comment. :) ..."Welcome, Jennifer! Come back more often!
Love your idea of notes for your daughter...
Monica wrote: "But I think that there is another advantage to reading the paper editions: your children see you reading actual books and they learn from your example. After all, for a three or five years old, if mom has the iPad in hands, how can he/she know that mom is playing Candy Crush or reading The Brothers Karamazov... "I have the exact same thoughts. I have a paperwhite kindle, and I take pains to make sure my girls realise that it only has books (not games), so they comprehend that I am reading a book... But I prefer the paper copy when I read in front of them so they easily understand it.
Jennifer wrote: "I'm actually writing in a book right now. I purchased the book "1001 Children's Books You Must Read Before You Grow Up" and I write notes in the margins when we've completed reading a listed book. I have a 5 year old daughter and the book will be for her, complete with her thoughts on the books when we read them. ."I love this idea.
Jennifer wrote: "I'm actually writing in a book right now. I purchased the book "1001 Children's Books You Must Read Before You Grow Up" and I write notes in the margins when we've completed reading a listed book. I have a 5 year old daughter and the book will be for her, complete with her thoughts on the books when we read them.."I love that idea. I'll have to get that book, or maybe four copies, one for each grandchild!
Everyman wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I'm actually writing in a book right now. I purchased the book "1001 Children's Books You Must Read Before You Grow Up" and I write notes in the margins when we've completed readin..."I will warn you ahead of time that there are quite a few foreign titles that are very difficult to obtain and not available in English at all. Of course, that makes it a treasure hunt and a reading challenge. Additionally, the book itself doesn't have the best put together spine I've seen especially when you consider how large the book is. I have a feeling that by the time we're through reading all the books, ten years or so from now, that this book will be held together with a couple rubber bands.. I feel that will only lend more character to it. I bought the book in used but very good condition. I wish that I had bought a new one to maximize the life of the spine. Not sure if that makes any sense.
Overall, I still think it was a wonderful idea. We'll be doing the book with a few substitutions. My kid has frequent nightmares, so, we'll probably substitute anything particularly spooky with the next highest reviewed book by the same author. If/when she grows out of the phase we can always revisit, but, at least we've experienced the author.
We have a fairly large library system. Even so, only around half of each category is available even to be ordered in from another library. On the bright side, even the difficult to obtain books are not really expensive. The most expensive in the 0-3 category is the wordless "Bunny Bath" by Lena Anderson. I also watch for the original "Kanin-bad" as it's wordless anyways. The "unobtainium" of the 0-3 category is the Ulf Lofgren title "Alvin says Good Night". There was one for sale for a couple dollars back in 2013, but I missed it. Hasn't been one since.
In other words, if you enjoy looking for things which can't be found, this book can be a lot of fun for that too.
Just an update re my query about The Great Books set, I did purchase them and am happy I did. Some of them appear never to have been opened, others I have read previously - library books, ebooks, or my own Franklin Mint editions. I am still happy to have them all in a set. They came with the original boxes that were shipped to the original owner. It is a fairly good storage solution.Everyman wrote: " As you note, all the texts in the first edition are in the public domain and easily accessible on line or in e-books. Even though I do use both a Kindle and a Nook, there is something special about reading books as books, especially classic texts....."
I like to read ebooks on various devices, (ipad, kobo arc, and kindle paperwhite) but making notes on a digital device is tedious. I almost never refer to the notes later, although the highlights are easy to see on the ipad when reviewing. I'd like to just print out my notes on a small page and slip them into my *new* hardcover books for reference. Adler suggests in the How to mark a book piece, that you use paper slightly smaller than the book. I used to use post-it notes but found them very messy, they need to be moved around to see the text and the glue gets old and dirty. I also find them a bit ugly. Writing in margins would be ok but I always run out of space when I'm onto some idea, and again, it gets ugly and illegible. One nice thing about this set is that all the books seem to be the same size (though of course some are thicker than others) so I'll need a pad of good thin paper of one size. The Franklin Mint books were of different sizes. The Franklin mint books are prettier and have some lovely original illustrations but, again, I am quite happy with the quality and plainness of the this collection.
Theresa wrote: "Just an update re my query about The Great Books set, I did purchase them and am happy I did. ..."ENJOY!
We are headed for a favorite used book store in Vermont next week. The owners are holding a particular poet/author for a friend of mine!
Well done. And I expect that some of the volumes will remain unread even during your ownership, unless you open them just to see what they look like. (Good luck if you try Ptolemy or Kepler!)
Everyman wrote: "Well done. And I expect that some of the volumes will remain unread even during your ownership, unless you open them just to see what they look like. (Good luck if you try Ptolemy or Kepler!)"
Certainly. One of the things that intrigued me about the set was the Synopticon with its cross-reference to different ideas along with page references to what the Great Authors had to contribute to these ideas. I might at least browse through some of those obscure books when checking out these ideas.
Patrice wrote: "I'm so happy you got the set Theresa. I'm sure you will enjoy them in the years to come and as you say just having the set is enjoyable in itself. I'm not surprised that some had never been read. O..."Lily wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Just an update re my query about The Great Books set, I did purchase them and am happy I did. ..."
ENJOY!
We are headed for a favorite used book store in Vermont next week. The o..."
Thanks!
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Can't We Talk about Something More Pleasant?: A Memoir (other topics)The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History (other topics)
The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had (other topics)
How to Read a Book: The Classic Guide to Intelligent Reading (other topics)
The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Roz Chast (other topics)Susan Wise Bauer (other topics)
In the Bauer book she even lists very inexpensive paperback editions purposely so one can write in them.
I write in the book books I own. I put definitions in the margins underline, refer back to other pages, etc.
If it's a library book I write in a notebook. I just did this for a library group read of The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History. I have 7 pages of notes.
I find even if I never read the notes again, just the act of writing them or even underlining something helps me to remember and also organize my thoughts.
I also do this with the dictionary. If I look up a word I highlight it. If I look up the same word again I put a check mark. If I come across a word that I've highlighted and check marked a bunch of times, I know this is a word that is commonly used and I better make an effort to remember it !
I enjoyed reading the essay. Thanks !