ARCHIVE - Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention by Manning Marable

[Pamela]

Lord help us, Teri ;). I had to look that one up!! What a great metaphor.

[Teri]

Pamela - You'd be surprised at how much that happens.

[Pamela]

Yes, I think I would be!

[Samanta]

Helga wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Teri on message 82

I've watched the other video you posted with his speech and wanted to comment on it, but somehow forgot. :D

He was, indeed, very charismatic and he ..."

Thank you, Helga :)

[Rachel]

Discussion question on Elijah Muhammad

(view spoiler)[

What are your impressions of Elijah Muhammad?

Honestly, I think he is a fraud in every since of the word. is anyone else suspicious about the sudden disappearance of Fard? I have a hard time believing that someone will just disappear and the only one its benefitting is Elijah Muhammad (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Discussion question on Elijah Muhammad"

Response on Elijah Muhammad and Fard

(view spoiler)[Well, it hadn't occurred to me, but now it does. Thanks for bringing that up. Very suspicious indeed. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

This is related to the discussion question on Elijah Muhammad

(view spoiler)[

I just found this video, I thought that anyone questioning Elijah Muhammads trust worthiness might like to see this. Here is the vid description: Elijah Muhammad's son claims that his father lied about Fard .



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xko4m... (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "This is related to the discussion question on Elijah Muhammad."

W. Deen Muhammad Video

(view spoiler)[Fascinating. Thanks for posting this. Now I'm curious to find out more about W. Deen Muhammad and what he believes now and if/when he may have started to challenge his dad's vision/beliefs.

Looks like he may have gone toward more mainstream Islam as opposed to NOI. He is now an Imam and has this website:

www.iwdmcommunity.com

(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 5 Discussion Questions - pages 130 - 142

(view spoiler)[1. Why do you think the Nation of Islam could not gain a foothold in the South?

2. Malcolm states in his speech at the Detroit Temple of Islam, "If the present leaders of the so-called American Negro and take a firm stand with positive steps designed to eliminate immediately the brutal atrocities that are being committed daily against our people; and, if the so-called Negro intelligentsia, intellectuals and educators won't unite to help alter this nasty and most degrading situation; then the little man in the street will henceforth begin to take matters into his own hands." What are your thoughts on this speech? Do you think he is advocating violence at this point?


Malcolm speaking to a group of student in 1958
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 5 Discussion Questions - pages 143-155

(view spoiler)[1. What drew women and families to the Nation of Islam?

2. During this chapter we see Malcolm X starting to separate spirituality and politics. Is Malcolm starting to split from the Nation of Islam? Is there an event that might have caused him to make a line between spirituality and politics?

3. Malcolm makes the statement "I know nothing about the south. I am a creation of the Northern white man." What are you thoughts on this statement?


Malcolm and Betty and children
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hi everyone. Just a reminder that I've been adding to our Glossary thread for this book. I've added quite a bit of information on the people, places, events, and speeches that are mentioned in the book. I'll be adding a little every day or two so check it out when you have a second.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Teri]

Chapter 6 Discussion Questions - pages 155 - 170

(view spoiler)[1. On page 156, NAACP activist Robert F. Williams is quoted as saying to the press that blacks should "meet violence with violence in order to protect themselves." Were you surprised that this comment came from an activist from the NAACP? How might this have affected Malcolm X?

2. Were you surprised by that the Nation of Islam basically looked on from the sidelines as the Civil Rights movement began mixing politics with protesting?


Fidel Castro and Malcolm X
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter 6 Discussion Questions - pages 170 - 179

(view spoiler)[1. Malcolm X's beliefs were shaped by the racial hatred of white supremacy. Malcolm's story seems to go through a change while on a pilgrimage to the Muslim holy city of Mecca. How had his ideals transformed at this point in his life?

2. What are your thoughts on Malcolm's meeting with the KKK? Could they mutually help each other's agenda? Is there ever a reason a person should negotiate with their enemy in order to advance an opposing view?


Malcolm X during his Hajj pilgrimage in Mecca
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

The Hate that Hate Produced Interview

I have this posted in the Glossary thread but wanted to post it here, since it is discussed in length in this week's reading:

(view spoiler)[The Hate That Hate Produced Interview
Video

Video: The Hate that Hate Produced | PBS
Transcript: The Hate That Hate Produced Transcript | Columbia University

The Hate That Hate Produced is a television documentary about Black Nationalism in America, focusing on the Nation of Islam and, to a lesser extent, the United African Nationalist Movement. It was produced in 1959 by Mike Wallace and Louis Lomax.


Top Left: Mike Wallace, Top Right: Malcolm X, Bottom Left: Elijah Muhammad, Bottom Right: Louis Lomax

Background

In 1959, Wallace and Lomax were television journalists for News Beat, a program on WNTA-TV in New York. Lomax told Wallace about the Nation of Islam, and Wallace became interested in the group. Lomax, who was African American, was given rare access to the organization. Accompanied by two white camera operators, Lomax conducted interviews with the Nation's leaders and filmed some of its events. The Hate That Hate Produced was broadcast in five parts during the week of July 13–17, 1959, and was repeated several days later.

The Program

The Hate That Hate Produced began with a narration by Wallace:

While city officials, state agencies, white liberals, and sober-minded Negroes stand idly by, a group of Negro dissenters is taking to street-corner step ladders, church pulpits, sports arenas, and ballroom platforms across the United States, to preach a gospel of hate that would set off a federal investigation if it were preached by Southern whites.

The cameras cut to a scene of Louis X (later known as Louis Farrakhan) indicting "the white man" for his crimes:

I charge the white man with being the greatest liar on earth! I charge the white man with being the greatest drunkard on earth.... I charge the white man with being the greatest gambler on earth. I charge the white man, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, with being the greatest murderer on earth. I charge the white man with being the greatest peace-breaker on earth.... I charge the white man with being the greatest robber on earth. I charge the white man with being the greatest deceiver on earth. I charge the white man with being the greatest trouble-maker on earth. So therefore, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I ask you, bring back a verdict of guilty as charged!

Wallace returned to tell the audience:

The indictment you've just heard is being delivered over and over again in most of the major cities across the country. This charge comes at the climax of a morality play called The Trial. The plot, indeed the message of the play, is that the white man has been put on trial for his sins against the black man. He has been found guilty. The sentence is death. The play is sponsored, produced, by a Negro religious group who call themselves "The Muslims".

During the course of the program, Wallace told viewers more about the Nation of Islam, which he described as "the most powerful of the Black supremacist groups". The documentary included footage of the University of Islam, a school run by the Nation, where, according to Wallace, "Muslim children are taught to hate the white man". It also showed portions of a large Nation of Islam rally, while Wallace told viewers that the organization had 250,000 members, a tremendously inflated number.

The Hate That Hate Produced included interviews between Lomax and Elijah Muhammad, the leader of the Nation of Islam. When Lomax asked him whether he was preaching hate, Muhammad answered that he was just teaching truth. Muhammad said he believed black people were divine and white people were devils. He also said that Allah was a black man.

The program also included Lomax's interviews with Malcolm X, the Nation of Islam's charismatic spokesman. Lomax asked him if all white people were evil, and Malcolm X explained that white people collectively were evil: "History is best qualified to reward all research, and we don't have any historic example where we have found that they have, collectively, as a people, done good." When he was asked about the Nation's schools, such as the University of Islam, Malcolm X denied that they taught black children to hate; he said they were being taught the same things white students were taught, "minus the little Black Sambo story and things that were taught to you and me when we were coming up, to breed that inferiority complex in us."

The program also includes interviews with James R. Lawson, the president of the United African Nationalist Movement, which advocated freedom for Africans from non-African rule. Lawson was asked about his relationship with African leaders of the time, notably President Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. According to commentators Christopher Kyriakides and Rodolfo Torres, this aspect of the program "draws public attention to the significant threat that Black Nationalism, as an enemy within, is presumed to pose to American interests in the Middle East".

At the program's end, Wallace asked for support for black leaders who were "counseling patience and the relatively slow operation of legal measures". He said it was necessary to make the United States a nation that was truly "indivisible, with freedom and justice for all".

Public Reaction

The Hate That Hate Produced shocked many of the millions of people who watched it. Most white people had never heard of the Nation of Islam before, and many were stunned to learn that some black people had such strong feelings toward white people. For many white viewers, it was the first time they learned there was a radical black alternative to the Civil Rights Movement.

Some African Americans could not believe that black people were saying such things out loud, but more than a few agreed with it. The number of people attending Nation of Islam meetings increased significantly, and the group's membership doubled to 60,000 within weeks after the broadcast.

The Hate That Hate Produced catapulted Malcolm X to national attention. Although he had rarely been mentioned in the mainstream press before the program went out, Malcolm X soon became a frequent participant in television debates on race-related issues and one of the most sought-after speakers on college campuses across the United States.

Modern Analysis

Recent commentators generally feel that The Hate That Hate Produced was biased against the Nation of Islam. One writer said "its title reflected its severe view". Others have described it as "marked [by] a tendency to caricature", "blatantly one-sided", and a "piece of yellow journalism".

One of the first things Wallace said about Muhammad and Malcolm X was that they had served time in prison, a statement that seemed designed to call their leadership credentials into question and suggest the organization itself was criminal. Wallace referred to "this disturbing story" and used phrases such as "black supremacy", "black racism", and "gospel of hate" to frighten the white audience, critics say, and no effort was made to balance the presentation.

In his book White Violence, Black Response, Herbert Shapiro criticizes Wallace's opening comments that the Nation of Islam "preach[es] a gospel of hate that would set off a federal investigation if it were preached by Southern whites." He noted that some Southern whites—including state and local elected officials—did in fact preach such a gospel of hate, but the federal government had done almost nothing to stop their hate propaganda. Shapiro also argues that Wallace confused the Nation's rhetoric that condemned white people with a specific plan for violence against white people.
(Source: Wikipedia)

More:
by Fred Kaplan
by Henry Louis Gates Jr. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hello everyone ~

Samanta has posted the Bibliography from the book on this thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

A special thanks to Samanta for her hard work on this exhaustive body of work for this book.

Please feel free to add any other books that may aid in our discussion of this book. Please remember to use proper citations, such as:

by Malcolm X

[Teri]

Chapter 7 Discussion Questions - pages 180 - 210

(view spoiler)[1. How do you think Elijah Muhammad's affairs affected his standing with the Nation of Islam? With Malcolm X?

2. How do you think the Los Angeles culture and racial tensions there affected Malcolm X?


Malcolm X's visit to Los Angeles amid racial tensions
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

I wanted to mention that the Bibliography has some links to some wonderful primary resources that Marable used for this book. You'll find a lot under the Columbia.edu website that is listed that contains some of the oral histories and FBI files used. Not everything is directly viewable online, but there is a bit and it is interesting read.

The Bibliography contains the following sections:

Government Documents
Archival Collections
Oral Histories
Interviews
Newspapers and Periodicals
Dissertations and Theses
Journal Articles
Books

Again, thank you Samanta for your hard work on this collection.

[Teri]

All, just a reminder that you should be finishing up the week 2 reading this weekend. If you are behind, that is fine. We never close the discussion and you can always comment on any area up to and including the present weeks reading. That currently includes Chapter 1-8.

You can respond to the questions I post or make comments / ask questions on what your reading. Don't forget that we have a great glossary too that includes information on some key people, places, and events described in Marable's book, along with some of Malcolm X's speeches and interviews.

How is everyone coming along? Has this been more detailed than you expected?

[Teri]

Chapter 8 Discussion Questions - pages 211 - 234

(view spoiler)[1. We start to see some of Malcolm's actions affecting the image of the Nation of Islam. What do you think most affects this image? How are the members of the Nation of Islam starting to see Malcolm at this point? A leader or someone to avoid?

2. Malcolm meets several people at this period in his life. Do you think they had a positive affect on his life? Do you think Malcolm had a profound affect on them? What about Malcolm seemed to draw in people like Muhammad Ali?


Alex Haley and Malcolm X
(hide spoiler)]

[Michael]

I have not yet taken the time to introduce myself. My name is Michael and I live in Alberta, Canada. I do a few different things to make a living, mostly I work as clergy and I am a paid on-call firefighter for the Village of Edgerton, Albera. I have always had an interest in history. I have been do more study of Islam lately and have wanted to read more about the civil rights movement. This book seemed a good fit for those two things. Malcolm X is one of those people that you hear about often but do not get a lot of real information regarding who they were or their life experience so this seemed like a good project to fill those gaps in knowledge.

[Teri]

Michael wrote: "I have not yet taken the time to introduce myself. My name is Michael and I live in Alberta, Canada. I do a few different things to make a living, mostly I work as clergy and I am a paid on-call fi..."

Welcome, Michael. We are glad you are joining us.

Jump right into the conversation. Malcolm X is quite a dynamic person to discuss and I look forward to reading your observations.

[Michael]

Jovita wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Prologue discussion question - page 4

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[It struck me as being very odd as well that so many changes it what was described as the normal routine of security in that venue were allowed. I was trying to figure out why no one took notice of these changes. Why did his own bodyguards not recognize this as out of the ordinary or even dangerous? Who was in on the changes in routine? Seems to me that people on every level of security for this event either helped in a conspiracy or missed the signs that something very different was happening. (hide spoiler)]

[Michael]

Teri wrote: "All, just a reminder that you should be finishing up the week 2 reading this weekend. If you are behind, that is fine. We never close the discussion and you can always comment on any area up to and..."

My progress report: I am pretty much one week behind the assigned reading. But still good to go...

[Teri]

Michael wrote: "Teri wrote: "All, just a reminder that you should be finishing up the week 2 reading this weekend. If you are behind, that is fine. We never close the discussion and you can always comment on any a..."

Excellent. I don't think you're the only one behind. We can discuss any part of the reading up to the current week's reading.

[Jovita]

Sorry, I am behind a bit as well. I've finally completed last week's reading and will post my responses as I work through the questions.

Chapter 6 discussion
(view spoiler)[Why do you think the Nation of Islam could not gain a foothold in the South?

There were a few reasons the NOI could not gain a foothold in the South. I believe one reason is the strong Christian influences in the South. I feel that there message was more appealing to northern blacks who may not have as strong a connection to Christian churches, people like Malcolm who were in prison, or living the street life, involved with drugs, alcohol, and prostitution. These problems were not as prevalent in the South, and also Southern blacks were more likely to be actively involved with Christianity, so the idea of adopting Muslim practices, even in order to create a black, utopian society, would have been seen as blasphemous to many southern blacks.

Also, I believe the greatest reason the NOI were unable to establish a meaningful presence in the South was because of their message of racial separation. Blacks were already living in a segregated society, and it was not a pleasant experience for them, so Northern blacks coming down and preaching about the goodness of racial separation would have been met with strong doubts from Southern blacks.

Malcolm states in his speech at the Detroit Temple of Islam, "If the present leaders of the so-called American Negro and take a firm stand with positive steps designed to eliminate immediately the brutal atrocities that are being committed daily against our people; and, if the so-called Negro intelligentsia, intellectuals and educators won't unite to help alter this nasty and most degrading situation; then the little man in the street will henceforth begin to take matters into his own hands." What are your thoughts on this speech? Do you think he is advocating violence at this point?


Malcolm was a very intelligent man. I believe he knew how to be ambiguous in his language, so that blacks could interpret the message to mean that violence was an acceptable and viable means of attaining racial equality, but he could not be accused of directly inciting violence.

What drew women and families to the Nation of Islam?

As the author states in the book, the promise of security and protection was a strong draw to black women joining the NOI. Although the group was very sexist in its practices and beliefs about women, the mainstream society was equally oppressive for black women at this time. I think women joining the NOI felt that they found a higher level of dignity within the NOI, and that the promise of protection and provision from their men at a time of violence, hatred, and uncertainty provided a better outlook for their future and wellbeing.

On page 156, NAACP activist Robert F. Williams is quoted as saying to the press that blacks should "meet violence with violence in order to protect themselves." Were you surprised that this comment came from an activist from the NAACP? How might this have affected Malcolm X?

I was not entirely surprised by the comments. Any time a group of people are so oppressed, so discriminated against, so mistreated, anger, frustration, and the desire for retaliation are natural human responses. In fact, I would think that the non-violent approach is much less innate, which is what made it so effective. The willingness of a group of people to lay aside their natural emotional responses and to react nonviolently to harsh mistreatment served to magnify the level of injustices that were being leveled against them. I don’t judge those who were unable to resist the human desire to mete out violence against violence. I’m sure hearing another black leader speak in that way only fortified Malcolm’s belief in that type of justice.

Were you surprised by that the Nation of Islam basically looked on from the sidelines as the Civil Rights movement began mixing politics with protesting?

I was not surprised at all that the NOI was not interested in actively participating in the Civil Rights Movement, because I see it more as a cult led by a man (Elijah Muhammed) who placed his own self interests at the forefront of all his decision-making. I don’t feel that he ever really had any interest in achieving equality and freedom for his members, because with that freedom and equality would come the realization that they could function and thrive in mainstream society with the NOI and Muhammed, which would then cut off his power and affluence. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Sorry, I am behind a bit as well. I've finally completed last week's reading and will post my responses as I work through the questions.

Chapter 6 discussion"

No apologies needed. This is a sizeable, in-depth book, worthy of time to soak it all in.

Response to Jovita - Chapter 6

(view spoiler)[I do wonder how many people in the south he got to follow him. I think that the religious climate and separation in the south were likely the main reasons he couldn't get a foothold there, but I would think there would be some amount of people that were disgruntled enough with their situation to listen.

Excellent point about women/families being protected. I think with their MGT organization it also made them feel like they were a part of the leadership as well, considering they are pretty oppressed otherwise. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Michael wrote: "Jovita wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Prologue discussion question - page 4

(view spoiler)[The conduct of many people, including Malcolm X, that day, was very strange. By that time, he was already separated from Elijah, and he knew he was considered an enemy. I know that he wanted to convey a message of peace, and not having guns was a perfect way to demonstrate that, but still....

Do you think that he expected something like this to happen? Do you think that he, maybe, wanted to play the role of a martyr? That was a definitive way to not be forgotten. What do you think? There is to much coincidence here to not be suspicious. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Discussion 6 question

(view spoiler)[

Were you surprised by that the Nation of Islam basically looked on from the sidelines as the Civil Rights movement began mixing politics with protesting?

Yes, considering that Louis Farrakan speaks openly when it comes to politics. I was listening to one of his speeches that he was talking about the different presidential candidates. He then asked the audience who was voting for Hillary? So I was surprised when I learned that NOI members were discouraged to participate in politics. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

This is regards to either chapter 6 or seven to Bayard Rustin

(view spoiler)[

I think that it was six, but I was reading about Malcolm x debating Bayard Rustin. I am still on chapter seven: but so far I know they debated on two occasion. Rustin beating Malcolm in one of the debates. And I was on YT and came upon this. I thought people would find interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXUmC... (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Response to Michael

(view spoiler)[I do think he knew something was brewing. I don't know that he 'wanted' to be a martyr, but I do think he felt strongly enough about his new way of thinking to continue to speak up and speak against the NOI, even if it meant risking his life. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

I'm getting a little confused. Where, exactly are we in the discussion. Since everyone seems to be behind (I just caught up today) are we still doing last week's chapters or are we moving into this week's....chaps. 9-12?

[Teri]

Pamela wrote: "I'm getting a little confused. Where, exactly are we in the discussion. Since everyone seems to be behind (I just caught up today) are we still doing last week's chapters or are we moving into this..."

We are doing chapters 9-12 this week. I just have not posted the summaries / discussion questions yet. Will do that today! ;-)

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "This is regards to either chapter 6 or seven to Bayard Rustin"

Rachel - Malcolm X / Rustin debate.

Thank you!!! Please post to the Glossary when you have a chance:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

(view spoiler)[Rustin is very interesting to watch. This is quite a dynamic exchange between the two. Thanks for sharing! (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 6 Discussion Part 2

(view spoiler)[1. Malcolm X's beliefs were shaped by the racial hatred of white supremacy. Malcolm's story seems to go through a change while on a pilgrimage to the Muslim holy city of Mecca. How had his ideals transformed at this point in his life?


I think that Malcolm was truly looking for some type of meaning and purpose for his life when he initially joined the NOI. Because his intentions, in my opinion, were pure, it was inevitable that he would begin to see the dissonance between the NOI’s beliefs and those of traditional Islam. This trip marked the beginning of Malcolm’s split from the NOI, though I doubt he would have even realized it at the time. However, his experiences on the trip drew strong contrasts to what what he had been taught about Islam in the NOI. Malcolm, being an intelligent man, must have noticed the huge differences. Also, I think the cultural differences in the perception of race and skin color probably got a lot of wheels turning in his mind about his understanding of the differences between races; it just took a while for Malcolm to fully explore these ideas and what they meant to his beliefs.


2. What are your thoughts on Malcolm's meeting with the KKK? Could they mutually help each other's agenda? Is there ever a reason a person should negotiate with their enemy in order to advance an opposing view?


The meetings between the KKK and the NOI were perplexing to me. I understand that they were working towards a common goal, in that both groups felt that racial separation was ideal, but I just don’t see how either group could find it acceptable to work with a group of people whom they view so negatively, and whom they know have a low opinion of them as well. I guess the attitude of both groups was that the ends justifies the means, but this relationship left me scratching my head. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 7 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. How do you think Elijah Muhammad's affairs affected his standing with the Nation of Islam? With Malcolm X?

It didn’t seem to have much of an effect at all, however that is not surprising, as many cult leaders have broken the rules of their own group with seemingly no consequences. Since Muhammad had essentially elevated himself to a level of near-deity, and buttressed by the strong arm of the Fruit of Islam, it would have been nearly impossible for anyone within the organization to really call him on his behavior. I’m sure anyone making significant noise about his behavior would have been threatened with danger to life and limb, as was eventually the case with Malcolm.

2. How do you think the Los Angeles culture and racial tensions there affected Malcolm X?

The issues in LA served to further distance Malcolm from Elijah Muhammed. The NOI’s lack of response in the case of the Ronald Stokes murder really led Malcolm to see how different his view of the civil rights movement was to that of the NOI as an organization. He was really starting to feel the draw of the political environment and was no longer content to stand idly by on the sidelines. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Chapter 8 Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[1. We start to see some of Malcolm's actions affecting the image of the Nation of Islam. What do you think most affects this image? How are the members of the Nation of Islam starting to see Malcolm at this point? A leader or someone to avoid?

The contradictions in Malcolm’s messages is what had the greatest impact on the NOI’s image. Here was this man that was nationally recognized and respected, who was seen as the voice of the NOI, but a lot of the things he was saying was increasingly in direct conflict with the teachings of Elijah Muhammed. The NOI urged its members to withdraw from political life. However, its spokesperson is injected himself into the most divisive political issues of the time, offering his opinion of the president as well as the integrationists, participating in debates with noted political thinkers, giving talks on university campuses, and participating in civil rights rallies and events. He was also contradicting the core beliefs of the sect in a lot of his messages, and moving towards a more traditional form of Islam. These contradictions undermined the credibility of the NOI to the public at large. They also caused the NOI leadership to look at Malcolm in a different way. Elijah Muhammed was beginning to mistrust Malcolm, and to feel the need to reign in his protégé.

2. Malcolm meets several people at this period in his life. Do you think they had a positive effect on his life? Do you think Malcolm had a profound effect on them? What about Malcolm seemed to draw in people like Muhammad Ali?

I believe people were drawn to Malcolm’s intellect, as well as his wholehearted belief in his ideals and his commitment to his cause. He was a very disciplined, very driven man. What I think what mostly drew people, though, was that he had a charisma about him, as some people just have, an aura that just draws others in and makes them interested in at least hearing what they have to say, even if they don’t agree. I think a lot of the people he was encountering were also having a deep impact on him. He strikes me as someone who would publicly fight to the bitter end in a debate, but would privately ponder the points of his opponent. He was a lover of information, of new ideas, and so the people he would encounter would all have an impact in shaping his spiritual and political thought over time. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Pamela wrote: "I'm getting a little confused. Where, exactly are we in the discussion. Since everyone seems to be behind (I just caught up today) are we still doing last week's chapters or are we moving into this..."

I think we are on 9-12 this week. I am still a little bit behind. Planning on trying to get caught up tonight

[Pamela]

Answers to a Couple of Teri's Questions

(view spoiler)[

How do you think Elijah Muhammad's affairs affected his standing with the Nation of Islam? With Malcolm X?

Well first, I don't think at this point too many people knew about them. It seems to have been limited to members of his family, a few leaders and Malcolm X. Second, I agree with Jovita that cults just seem to work that way particularly when it comes to sex. The followers just accept that the leader has a right to do that. Finally, in this case, I think it had a lot to do with the nature of Elijah Muhammed's followers. So many of them were recruited from prison or were addicts of some kind and were used to just accepting that things were not equal. They were very used to following orders and not questioning whether or not someone was just. I imagine they didn't really expect people to be very good, especially someone with power.

On the other hand, Malcolm was really a true believer and felt that Elijah Muhammed was a holy prophet so, for him, this was a very real betrayal.

What are your thoughts on Malcolm's meeting with the KKK? Could they mutually help each other's agenda? Is there ever a reason a person should negotiate with their enemy in order to advance an opposing view?

I'm not sure what to make of this one. It's not like they really could benefit one another and the rank and file was bound to be unhappy over some kind of secret deal. I wonder if there wasn't a bit of "touching the flame" involved. Something like a child playing with the stove and seeing how close to the fire he can get without getting burned. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Thanks Teri, Rachel. I'm only worried because if I wait too long, I'll forget everything I just read :)!

[Teri]

Pamela wrote: "Thanks Teri, Rachel. I'm only worried because if I wait too long, I'll forget everything I just read :)!"

No worries at all. This is a very detailed book with a hefty schedule to stay on the book in a month track. I wanted to give you guys some time to catch up a bit and have been playing catch up myself in some other areas of the History Book Club.

I'll get summaries and questions out soon.

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Discussion 6 question"

Rachel - Louis Farrakhan and Politics

(view spoiler)[Louis Farrakhan can be a polarizing person but I think he's very open about using politics to his advantage. I found this on his NOI website:

As part of the major thrust for true political empowerment for the Black community, Minister Farrakhan re-registered to vote in June 1996 and formed a coalition of religious, civic and political organizations to represent the voice of the disenfranchised on the political landscape. His efforts and the overwhelming response to the call of the Million Man March resulted in an additional 1.7 million Black men voting in the 1996 presidential elections. In July 1997, the Nation of Islam, in conjunction with the World Islamic People’s Leadership, hosted an International Islamic Conference in Chicago. A broad range of Muslim scholars from Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East, along with Christian, Jewish and Native American spiritual leaders participated in the conference.

I don't know if they still try to suppress political involvement but isn't it interesting that the views of their sect has changed over time? What do you know of Farrakhan and how do you think he differs from Malcolm X? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Response to Michael"

Malcolm X Assassination Theories

(view spoiler)[I'm not going to say anything on this topic here, as I've read a head some, but we will be discussing this in more length as we get closer to the end. Feel free to continue on and know that more will be revealed, for those who don't know the circumstances of his last days. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 6 Discussion Part 2"

Jovita -- >Malcolm X after Mecca and the KKK

(view spoiler)[I agree that Malcolm's trip to Egypt, et. al. was that cathartic point for him. How do you think he felt when he didn't know the prayers / rituals / etc. for orthodox Islam during that trip? Do you think he was humiliated at all or found it as a time of learning about the orthodox ways and teaching about NOI? You are very right, he was an intelligent man and I'm sure he had a lot to process from this trip.

The KKK....you and Pamela are not alone. I really had to scratch my head about this. It's like being in bed with enemy. It just seems like the KKK would not want to work with Malcolm at all, as they seem so hate filled. I can see Malcolm reaching out to them easier. As you say, they likely felt the ends justified the means. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 7 Discussion Questions."

Jovita -->Chapter 7 - Elijah Muhammad and the NOI

(view spoiler)[When I wrote that question about Elijah, I knew that some of his closer followers had to know what was going on with him and his affairs. I'm sure there were some FOI members that likely were helping cover up things for him. So we speculate now, on how this will eventually fall out for him. But I liken this situation to Warren Jeffs. Even with Jeffs in prison, he still has a loyal group of followers. It is a cult like mentality to continue honoring a leader that has so obviously fallen. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Chapter 8 Discussion Questions"

Jovita -->Chapter 8 - Malcolm X's reputation with the NOI

(view spoiler)[Do you think that Elijah tried to talk with Malcolm at all about his activism/political work? I didn't get an impression that Elijah tried to reign him in too much, but was starting to just allow him set his own demise. Muhammad had just invested so much in to Malcolm that I thought he distanced himself from him pretty quickly. Likely because he wanted to get rid of the person who held his "secrets"?

I agree that Malcolm was a very intelligent person who soaked in all that he learned from others, whether he agreed with them or not. He was definitely his own person but that comes from what he learned from others. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Pamela wrote: "Answers to a Couple of Teri's Questions."

Pamela -->Malcolm X on Elijah and the KKK

(view spoiler)[See my comments to Jovita above. I wanted to also say that I found it interesting that Malcolm continued to talk about "The Honorable Elijah Muhammad" long after he split from the NOI. Even though Malcolm saw his leader as somewhat "fallen" he continued to hold him in great esteem.

I commented on the KKK above to Jovita and agree with you both that this had me scratching my head. I like your analogy of a child testing how far they can go without getting burned. I think he surprisingly got pretty close. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Teri's Response to Jovita - Chapter 6, Part 2

(view spoiler)[

That's a really good question, Teri. I wondered about that myself. I think Malcolm X might have felt surprised. I don't remember that the book mentioned he had done much research himself into Islam at that point. He certainly still felt Elijah Muhammed was all-knowing. So I imagine it came as a surprise to realize that they didn't really have this historic connection with all of the Islamic peoples. That maybe Elijah Muhammed had gotten some things wrong and I suspect he felt a little foolish too. (hide spoiler)]

[Rachel]

Question on Louis Farrakhan

(view spoiler)[
What do you know of Farrakhan and how do you think he differs from Malcolm X?

I don't know much on Farrakhan. I do know that both Betty and Malcolm's daughters thought he had something to do with it. from what I was reading I felt that he was with Malcolm in regards that the NOI needed to do more political wise. but I think the difference is that Farrakhan wouldn't go against Muhammad. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Rachel wrote: "Question on Louis Farrakhan"

I think I need to research him some more before we head into the final chapters. More to come....

[Jovita]

Rachel wrote: "Question on Louis Farrakhan"

(view spoiler)[I am very suspicious of Farrakhan and his account of events in this book. In particular, I found it very strange that, on some points, his version of events are very different than those of everyone else involved. For instance, his insistence that Evelyn's relationship with Elijah Muhammed was the catalyst for the breakdown between Malcolm and Elijah is not corroborated by anyone else. He seems to be the only one blaming the breakdown in relationship on Malcolm and his jealousy. Everyone else concedes that there were people in authority who were jealous of Malcolm and were stirring up trouble in the relationship between the two men. Like Teri, I need to research more about him before drawing any conclusions, but I am already a bity wary of him based on what we've read so far. (hide spoiler)]