Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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The Irrational Atheist
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Then there's the issue of always being prepared to defend your Faith. 1 Peter 3:14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.…
Yes, you will be intimidated. I realized 10 years ago how poorly I knew my bible. Atheists would attack every inch of the Bible for inconsistencies and assumed contradictions - as well as poorly embraced church doctrines and traditions.
The need for Systematic Theology was a must. Otherwise we are no different from any religious CULT or Eastern Belief.
25 years ago we had very few Book resources and Apologetic aids. Now we have 1,000's. What a relief. I've been reading them all. (some are great - some are useless liberal propaganda that just promotes blind feel good fuzzy humanism IN THE NAME OF JESUS)
Here's the weird part:"always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you - yet with gentleness and reverence..."
I see this abused and misquoted daily. How many people do I meet that ask me to give an account for the HOPE THAT IS IN ME? Almost none.
Most people just want to mock and attack the Bible and Jesus --- they have no interest in any Hope I might have. So gentleness and reverence might NOT always apply. Some people might not deserve an answer JUST YET. Maybe later.
This part is essential and WORKS:
" 16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.…"
Yes, our good behavior and conscience in Christ is worth a thousand arguments.
Often, If I get around to telling Atheists about my being happily married for over 20 years - my amazing 2 adopted children - and the awesomeness of my church community... half of their religious attacks will simply vanish.
Now we need to know our Bibles for the next parts.
This is the most reasoned discussion so far. What some "evangelists" forget is our job is, as the "Great Commission" says, is to preach and baptize. Beyond that is God. John, the Gospeler, says, "You did not choose me; I chose you."
Which verse is that John? Sounds great!
Thank you for the thoughtful discussion Rod. Myself, I think that since the Bible says gentleness and reverence, we should always at least attempt it. what I mean is that I think it always applies.when I tried to describe the hope within me that you also spoke of, I was met with a clearly premeditated argument about those 'feelings' having been genetically selected for because it bred social interaction which back in the caveman days increased the likelihood for survival. Then he used that same information to argue that there is really no such thing as a soul, just a genetically evolved part of the brain.
I'm guessing he read some 'how to argue with a christian' self help book, because like you said, he had something he'd convinced himself of for everything I said. and it really wouldn't have mattered what I said in response.
I have to say that even though it seems futile on the outside, I think that even the most obstinate atheist hears our gentle and reverant hearts yes, and wonders at them. at some point grace can no longer be explained away by evolution.
I think we must always be gentle and reverent, because what if you are there the moment they realize they are very wrong? a soft place to land would be best I think.
By all means - be gentle and reverent.Yes, gentle with their very fragile and emotional egos. And the definition of Reverent:
"feeling or showing deep and solemn respect"
Christians should always be deep, WE are at Cosmic war for the souls of mankind. The challenge is that we don't respect their poorly thought out worldviews (and honestly, neither do they). The problem is many situations haven't presented themselves to them yet. AS soon as their world crumbles - they will hopefully quest for some absolute eternal hope. (but not always).
YES, most atheists nowadays have read the "How To Argue With a Christian" pamphlet. Takes about 20 minutes to load up and embarrass most church-goers. " I was met with a clearly premeditated argument about those 'feelings' having been genetically selected for because it bred social interaction which back in the caveman days increased the likelihood for survival. Then he used that same information to argue that there is really no such thing as a soul, just a genetically evolved part of the brain."
The fun begins when we take a logical scalpel to their assumed factual arguments.
1) How does an atheist define when their genetically bread socially selected feelings have run AMOK? Wouldn't this justify Rape and a North Korea like behavior? Or pedophiles and Priests who abuse children? Since Child sex abuse isn't really in the Bible - it must be a genetic issue (atheists do it as well)... therefore it's not really a sin or a crime. If we can adjust that ---- then maybe we can adjust L.G.B.T. behavior? Maybe we can adjust basic atheism? Who says truth trumps genetically bread desires? Maybe the human specifies has been created to follow the lies of religion?
Murdering an atheist might just be a perfectly enjoyable Genetic social function, a sporting event perhaps? Why not? We aren't really souls with eternal meaning or purpose.
There really are no caveman days. Unless you are a monkey/ape who lives at the zoo.
If some people aren't really evolving: whats wrong with simply killing them? Or if we have 5 sick people and one healthy person: we should cut up that healthy person to help the others survive. Isn't survival the GREATER GOOD of our species - maybe we should cut HIM UP???
Sounds to me like he doesn't think the Nazi's really did anything wrong - they were just following their social genetically bred interactions. Maybe we should cheer on another holocaust?
And that is why Atheism doesn't work. Follow their logic AND BAD SCIENCE to its endgame. Even they are afraid to do it. Eventually they'll agree that school shootings are just a minor genetic social OPTION. No harm done. No souls were hurt. WE all die anyway.
It's fun to tell an atheist you are thinking about joining them - but that you have a few questions and concerns first. Follow all of their arguments to their brutal conclusions --- even they won't do this... they usually stop at the edge of Christian morals.
Jenny i'm also saying all this for any others that may not have your ability to openly discuss these issues. Maybe some New Christians or those scared at the moment. (so I hope I'm not sounding like a know-it-all. And exploring these things helps me rethink my views. I love being wrong and correcting myself).Jenny comment:
" He said that he was going to make me read this list of books (make me), to which I said okay I will, but he never sent the list. I told him it wouldn't matter what those books said. He said 'no, you'll see.' "
A few years ago I decided to read everything I could AGAINST Christianity. Honestly, if there's something wrong with this God-given Faith belief I want to know.
I've read Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and about 20 others... All i've learned is that these people aren't even slightly interested in Religions or Truth...especially the TRUTH of atheism.
They just hate the idea of a Loving Righteous Wrathful Just God. Sure would be nice if they'd just admit that. I've also spent a decade researching other religions --- Compared to Christianity, they are all man-made, and ALL about man and His efforts to save himself.
I still tell people: If you can show me something BETTER than Christianity - I'll take it. I'm still waiting...
Even if Christianity is a lie: it's a really nice LOVING and JUSTICE filled fantasy. Atheism offers neither Love or Justice --- and we all know it isn't nice. Atheistic Science is Brutally Horrific with no Rules or Kindness.
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Which leads me to a new thought: Jenny said
" The problem is: I hate to argue. I mean, I really cannot stand it. Frodo did not want to carry the ring either though, so I figured I ought to find a way to have conversations with these argumentative atheist folks in a way that doesn't solidify their opinion that all Christians are blind and stupid."
Some Christians are indeed blind and stupid - but they don't have to be. Since the beginning of Christianity: Our favorite hobby has been debating for truth: the Prophets did it, Jesus did it, Paul did it... Christians LOVE debating. WE still do. Truth is essential to us.
Our Bible is so brilliant almost all Atheists can barely comprehend it. It was too amazing to be written by Sheep-herders. Way more complete and connected to resemble any other historic myths and legends. Way too borrowed and inspiring to endless generations to just be about some dead/risen desert guy who had 12 buddies. Way too much known Empires and Geography to be simply fables. Way too much human wisdom and family values to be a Cult.
Okay, here's the fun part:Jenny said: " The problem is: I hate to argue."
So what DO YOU LIKE to do? What is your spiritual gift? How do you function best? What is your best personality trait?
For me: Honestly, I hate science. Yawnnn - no interest at all. I hate when atheists get into science, bores the hell out of me. (if that were possible?)
But I do love Philosophy, Humor, and Action (valor, Knightly deeds, Chivalry).
So I don't talk science necessarily. But I have researched the Philosophy of science, Endless humor and comedy in science, The naughty and sneaky methods scientists have used to promote their personal agenda's in the name of science. And I've found numerous scientists that I fully trust and Cheer on.
Thankfully - most atheists aren't as smart about scientific methods as they assume. (remember back to their 20 minute Atheistic pamphlet?)
Use your secret weapon. First: figure out what it might be.
There have been some very impressive movies about Jesus and Christianity : The Robe, The Ten Commandments, The Silver Chalice, etc. Now, there is a modern inspirational movie that all Christians are cheering : Miracle From Heaven ~ go see it today; you'll be glad you did. Jules
well, I will have to respond to the bulk later, but do you know every single Christian? have you known all of them since the beginning? no. I hate to argue, and I am a christian. I'm sure there are many like me. "we" don't love to argue and that's a generalization on your part. logical fallacy BTW. I'll try to respond to the rest later today.
My point was: don't argue - do what you LIKE instead. Use your gifts as a guide.
Greater Love has No One than ThisJohn 15:15"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17"This I command you, that you love one another.
replying to Rod again- well, you said it was all of our favorite hobby... no way! :-)I appreciate your point about the evolution of this social behavior bit that my coworker was using... I will let you know what he says when I ask him why more negative human traits haven't been selected out completely. it will be an interesting conversation.
I will ask him for the list of books again.
now, how can an inquiring mind such as yours think science is boring? seriously? God's intricate beauty in his creation is amazing dude. read about how your kidney works for example, those nephrons were a stroke of genius.
Spiritual gifts... I see your point, but it isn't as though I went chasing after the argument with this coworker. He sort of pounced. that's why I am talking to you guys! Maybe something will be made clear to me that I should say to this guy if ever the topic comes up again.
I haven't figured out specifically what my spiritual gifts are in terms of teaching, healing, tongue speaking etc. No clue on that front. I have been able to bear with awful people for longer than normal (according to friends), survive strife (as we all do) and loss and pain and through all that remain genuine and honest. That's a gift from the spirit for sure. Also, I make a very mean cheesecake.
I may have more to say- typing on the phone and can't see the rest of the conversation.
:)
I've watched numerous debates with the heroes of Atheism and Christian thinking. So what happens AFTER those debates - mostly NOTHING - each goes back to their huddle.
I do find it funny when people try to tell us only professionals should do religious debates (I partially agree). But only deluded fools think their Vast wisdom and loving knowledge will instantly convince the masses. Even Great debaters like James R. White and William Lane Craig will totally destroy an atheist opponent ---- only to debate them a year later on similar issues (having accomplished NOTHING). Same goes for those who debate Muslims and Mormons and spiritual fruitloops.
The secret to any debate or chat: is seeing how much YOU can learn. Because you can't force others to learn. People are generally stubborn. It's fascinating to learn that occasionally those Atheists who hate and mock Christianity are desperately suicidal in their atheism... Yes, many will share this information if you lovingly listen to their concerns. Often the most obnoxious are on their 3rd marriage and their current relationship is failing (nobody THAT ANNOYING can possibly go home to a loving family).
So we might never win the argument - but we can minister to hurting people.