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Weaveworld by Clive Barker
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Angie, Constant Reader
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Apr 01, 2016 08:59PM
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This is a LONG book; it seems like I have been reading it forever. It is imaginative, for sure, tedious at times, but something keeps me reading. I just wonder.... for those who have read it.... do you think that Stephen King would like this book that we are recommending for him ?
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On a recommendation from Uncle Stevie, as a matter of fact.
Glad that you posted that comment, Chris. My first thought after finishing it was knowing King's dislike of "unnecessary words", he may have found Weaveworld in need of some drastic editing but.... he recommended it and gave his stamp of approval , as you said.
I just spent 12 (long) days reading this book. Fantasy is not my genre ,but I wanted to see what this one was all about , some good reviews, and it did receive the most member votes in our poll.I guess that I expected to form some sort of strong attachment to the main characters, Suzanna and Calhoun, but I didn't. To me, they were lifeless and distant; Suzanna more so than Cal. What a disappointment for me, a character-driven reader!
Actually I found the villainess Immacolata to be the most interesting, well-developed character, and even though I don't "like" her, I enjoyed the times when she was present throughout the book. Maybe I'm way off base.
Did you develop strong FEELINGS toward either Suzanna/Cal?
And, could someone please tell me why Immacolata was banished from the Fugue?
Sorry this post won't add anything to the discussion and I won't have time this month to read Weaveworld (I'm going to attempt to get a head start on Dreamcatcher for next month, though), but I just wanted to chime in with how much I remember loving this book when I originally read it back in high school. I went on to read some of Barker's other fantastical tomes, Imajica, The Great and Secret Show, and Everville, and enjoyed them all. Much like King, Barker got pigeonholed as a horror writer despite most of his work being across so many genres. I found Barker's fantasy stories much more interesting and palatable than his horror work like Books of Blood: Volumes One to Three.
So glad to read your post, Travis, and wish that you and I could talk about the book; hopefully, others will soon jump in. You really don't remember anything about the main characters?You know, the more I think about the entire scope of Weaveworld , the more I like it; I even think that I will change my 3 star rating to a 4. I think that I just got so bogged down in its length, never-ending, but then.... many books I read are lengthy and IF I really like them, I wish that they were never-ending !
Betsy wrote: "So glad to read your post, Travis, and wish that you and I could talk about the book; hopefully, others will soon jump in. You really don't remember anything about the main characters?You know, t..."
Betsy: I read this last year and may do a re-read this month. I do remember being very concerned about the fate of the characters. I think more than the others it was the Seerkind themselves, I was most worried about. I did like Cal Moody, and of course, after the Dark Tower, I'm always taken by someone neamed suzanna or suzan. I was really impressed with Barker's vision. I thought there was subtime humor in the work, but it is massive. I listened to the audio book which was very well done but also a little pondeous.
I'm not very far into it but it's interesting at least, albeit a little sporadic but I'm sure I'll get used to that. :) I have high hopes!!!
My post from a few minutes ago disappeared. Hopefully, it will come back. I posted a review of this book last year. I liked it very much even though it is a long and occasionally ponderous work. I did like Suzanna and Cal though my main concern was for the Seerkind who seemed pretty much doomed from the start. Loved Immacolata as a great juicy villain. But I can't remember why she was banished from the Fugue. Anyway, my rather lengthy review is at https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I just knew that Stephen King fans would start showing up, and that makes me happy. A monologue is not much fun, nor satisfying.Reanna, So glad that you are on board and can't wait for your posts as you get more into the book. I hope that you are a fast reader :)
Nick, I'm always glad when you participate as I find your comments very insightful. I do hope that you take the time for a re-read. And, BTW, your comment about "understated humor" found in the book.... I must have missed that and it would have been a welcome relief for me.
Immacolata's sisters, The Hag/ The Magdalene, the ones she "killed" while still in the womb but still remained with her, were two of the most disgusting, loathsome, malformed creatures - in appearance, in actions, in every way possible. There were also other creatures throughout that were pretty dreadful. There was VERY graphic detail as to what was done to their bodies e.g. Rake, the assassin, who the surgeons filleted and took every bone from his body.
Did this turn you off OR is this the nature of fantasy ?
I am not a fantasy reader so I really don't know.
Betsy wrote: "I just knew that Stephen King fans would start showing up, and that makes me happy. A monologue is not much fun, nor satisfying.Reanna, So glad that you are on board and can't wait for your posts..."
Didn't mind the graphic details. King, I think, does as much in his true horror novels. Think of all those rotting, maggot-infested corpses rolling around inside of Christine, or the images inside the rooms in The Shining. But yes it was repulsive.
As for the understated humor. It was there. I am rereading so maybe I can quote a few things. But just the business of introducing the carpet while showing Cal trying to coax a prized pigeon down from a window ledge is pretty cool.
You're right, Nick. Since I don't read fantasy, I guess that I didn't expect quite a bit of horror to show up in a fantasy book but.... then, I believe that Barker also is known for his horror books .. As to King, with Christine and The Shining I went into those knowing full well to expect horror elements, but I will reassess my thoughts about the "repulsive" parts in Weaveworld and not be so sensitive.
Betsy wrote: "You're right, Nick. Since I don't read fantasy, I guess that I didn't expect quite a bit of horror to show up in a fantasy book but.... then, I believe that Barker also is known for his horror book..."But sensitivity is good even if you have to be over sensitive so that you're not undersensitive.
I'll try to remember that, Nick :) Something that is not too clear to me:Suzanna's maternal grandmother Mimi was alienated from her children/ grandchildren. Suzanna's parents had told her that Mimi was not to be trusted (although I don't know why) and Suzanna had only been around her grandmother a few times and these visits had not gone well.
I really didn't understand this relationship. I would have thought that since Mimi was the last Guardian of the carpet and knew that Suzanna would be her successor, that Mimi would have encouraged them to be close, to have a passing on of information while still living rather than waiting until close to her death in the form of a letter saying, "I have much to say to you" and then never got to say it.... a little too late. And, Suzanna , IMO, didn't seem real broken up over Mimi's passing.
I wonder:
Why Mimi consciously chose to be distant?
And, why trust Mimi, a human (Cuckoo) to look after the carpet?
Betsy wrote: "I'll try to remember that, Nick :) Something that is not too clear to me:Suzanna's maternal grandmother Mimi was alienated from her children/ grandchildren. Suzanna's parents had told her that Mi..."
Can't remember the details and I'm not that far along this time through. But I think it all made sense to me at the time. I'll let you know what I think as soon as I get to that point in the story.
Thinking more about Cal and the things that I did like about him:Once he glimpsed this paradise, a place he had been waiting since childhood to find, I don't think that his life was ever the same. This became almost a quest for him throughout the book, and he is our hero, right?
He remembered this paradise and was loyal in his attempts to find it once again.
I think that all the Fugue characters felt this way and I can understand that because it was their home; I guess that it's just natural for people to feel this way about their roots ?
Betsy wrote: "I'll try to remember that, Nick :) Something that is not too clear to me:Suzanna's maternal grandmother Mimi was alienated from her children/ grandchildren. Suzanna's parents had told her that Mi..."
Not sure Mimi chose to be distant, I think she was just like that. Let's face it, some people are solitary, don't trust anyone, and couldn't get close to another person even if they wanted to.
Well, I have to take a break from this book and read something else. I'm about a third of the way through, and I'm having the hardest time getting in to it. I'm not really in to fantasy novels, and The writing style is just so flowery. I really wanted to like it, but I think After 2 weeks and only at 250 pages, I'm on pace for this thing taking another month! And, there's just too many other books I want to read right now.I'm going to wait until others finish, and maybe I'll be recharged to finish it off.
To Nick, Your explanation makes sense. I've thought about Mimi a lot because, to me, she was an interesting character, although not very well-developed.I thought that sometimes when one has been "given" a great, and secret, responsibility, one tends to become more guarded and even perhaps isolated. However, she was close to her lion-tamer husband Romo so she did have the capacity to care.
Perhaps she thought that Suzanna was too young to accept this awesome responsibility or that she had more time. ??
To Messier, Boy, Messier, I'm with you 100%, slow going !! But when the group chose Weaveworld, I was excited because this would make me go into the fantasy world, a world I have usually avoided but.... the experience was not entirely what I hoped.First, it really was too long, IMO, needed editing , wandered around a lot, and had extra padding. Just one example was the addition ~65% of de Bono and Cal spending the night at Venus Mountain, their night of love. An erotic interlude, for sure, but not necessary/important. Many times in reading certain scenes, it made me wonder how much of Barker's book King would have cut out? Not that some of King's books are not overly long but the quality is different.
Messier, All I can say to you is that I am glad, no, that is not the right word, maybe pleased, maybe astounded, that I did stick with it, and maybe sometime, you will get back to it, or not.
Another character that got my attention was Geraldine, Cal's sometime live-in girlfriend who was introduced early in the book ~9%. Did she seem too good to be true to you? No demands on Cal. At first she wanted them to be married; then it was just housekeeping and friendship. She was curious , and asked often, if Cal loved Suzanna. What was her purpose in the book anyway ?
HI Betsy,I completely agree with just too many words, and not enough going on. I mean, I read the Stand and IT in the last 6-8 months- both very long, close to 2500 pages between them. The stand had some parts that I felt were long-winded, but I never thought that with IT. But I knocked both of those out in about 3 weeks time (for each book). Though I do that, if I'm having a hard time getting in to a book, but really want to read it, it ends up taking me 3 times as long.
Anyways, I've never really cared for Fantasy, but thought I'd give this a shot. I guess I still don't care for the genre.
Hate to admit it but I'm having similar thoughts, (setting the book aside.) Plus I've actually listened to it as an audiobook already. I do like the characters. And I know all that is coming and how complex and difficult it all is. I like the story and the imagery and the monumental ideas. But I keep thinking of other books I'd like to move on to. Also - this time through - the grotesque images, especially those inside-out by-blows, really are disturbing. Anyway, I'm going to stay with it a little longer, and see if I continue to feel this way, and how loud the call of the other books will get.
Oh, no, Nick, you're deserting me :( And there's still so much floating around in my mind. How I hope that some other members will step into the "discussion" ! NO fun all by myself :(
Betsy wrote: "Oh, no, Nick, you're deserting me :( And there's still so much floating around in my mind. How I hope that some other members will step into the "discussion" ! NO fun all by myself :("
I'm not deserting yet, Betsy. I'm actually enjoying the read (by-blows notwithstanding). But there's all this pressure to read other books for people. Not sure how you could not care that much about Cal and Suzanna, BTW. I like them a lot.
Nick, I can explain my feelings re. Suzanna and Cal , which make sense to me.Suzanna DID what she had to do to make the carpet of the Fugue survive and she did it well. I would/could not fault her actions in regard to this. But, personally, I don't think that I ever FELT much toward Suzanna , and I missed these feelings. I feel that Suzanna did not show much caring for her dying grandmother Mimi and could/should have been there to help/protect her, knowing that Mimi was waiting for her.
Probably the incident that "soured" me toward Suzanna was when, after Cal told her that he loved her, she took Jerichau for a lover; I felt that this was a betrayal.
In contrast, I did FEEL towards Cal. He had very strong feelings that he expressed often about what he called Wonderland and desperately wanted to return there. He took very good care of his ailing father and his father's pigeons , and he honored his grandfather Mad Mooney and his verses = family was important to him. And, Cal was up front w/ Geraldine about his feelings and did not lead her on, as he could have; she was aware of his feelings toward Suzanna.
So, it is not that I didn't care, but what they both made me feel, and Cal did the better job of that.
Betsy wrote: "Nick, I can explain my feelings re. Suzanna and Cal , which make sense to me.Suzanna DID what she had to do to make the carpet of the Fugue survive and she did it well. I would/could not fault he..."
I pretty much agree with you on most of this Betsy. This whole, "we can sleep together in your bed naked, but we won't touch each other and will just be friends," thing, seemed weird, to say the least. But you know what? I immediately blamed the author for that. I thought well, the author's got someone else lined up for her. And stepping out of the story like that is a very bad sign. BTW, Somehow you thought a lot more about the relationship between Suzanna and Mimi than I did. I never felt that S abandoned Mimi... she just expected her to last longer... and Mimi was in a hospital; she should have been okay. At the time I don't think S was aware of the dangers all around.
I thought that the jacket Immacolata gave to Shadwell was neat!! "Tell me what you want and it's yours." Wow!I really liked how it played an important part at the end of the book with the Scourge and what the Scourge most desired. And look what it did to obsessed Hobart !
This made me think: IF someone offered you your heart's greatest desire, would you be tempted? Would you do whatever to get it?
Betsy wrote: "I thought that the jacket Immacolata gave to Shadwell was neat!! "Tell me what you want and it's yours." Wow!I really liked how it played an important part at the end of the book with the Scourge..."
Nowhere near the end of the book this time through, and it's not clear in my memory, but it would be poetic justice if one of the most evil (though also one of the most inventive) devices in the book - Shadwell's coat - served some good in the end. As for your second questions - all those nuns back in Catholic school always suggested that some day the devil would come along and tempt us with our hearts desires and we were (supposedly) trained to say "NO!"
My dad must have married a lapsed nun because my mother constantly drilled into me : Be careful what you wish for !! And, boy, I wish I would have listened more to ALL the things she said :)I hope that you listened to your nuns, Nick !!
Betsy wrote: "My dad must have married a lapsed nun because my mother constantly drilled into me : Be careful what you wish for !! And, boy, I wish I would have listened more to ALL the things she said :)I hope..."
Well, there was this girl back in my junior year in high school.....
Ah, Nick, a little, sweet high school romance = I'll bet that made for a good story. Hope that she didn't break your heart or.... maybe you married her ? :) Anyway....Mimi's gift to Susanna was her book of German faery tales. I have been wondering, and would someone explain, WHY was that SO important that everyone wanted it, risking their lives to get it? I know it was more than faery tales.
WHAT exactly WAS in this book? Was it the story of the Seerkind??
Betsy wrote: "I just knew that Stephen King fans would start showing up, and that makes me happy. A monologue is not much fun, nor satisfying.Reanna, So glad that you are on board and can't wait for your posts..."
Hi Betsy, I may be a little late to the party here, but I thought I'd chip in. If you read more Barker (which you totally should), you'll find an element of horror in everything he writes. I felt similarly to you about Weaveworld (which was my first Barker novel as well) in regards to the characters. They were a bit flat to me, and I just couldn't get close to them the same way I can many of King's characters. That said, the story swept me along rapidly enough and I went on to read more of his work. And I was happy I did.
The Damnation Game, also a bit flat in the character department, is deeply disturbing and beautifully written. One of the darkest and most interesting horror novels I've ever read. Then there's The Books of Blood, which together are nothing short of remarkable. In the Hills the Cities is one of my all-time favorite short stories ever, and I can't imagine a fan of horror not loving Rawhead Rex or Cabal.
He also wrote The Thief of Always, a creepy children's story that Gaiman had to have had in his mind somewhere while writing Coraline.
But his real masterpiece is Imajica. It's a huge book (Weaveworld is a little more than a short story next to it), but I think you'll find characters to love there if you decide to tackle it some day. It's a marvel. So ambitious and successful that even it's scattering of failures make it all the more special.
Daniel wrote: "Betsy wrote: "I just knew that Stephen King fans would start showing up, and that makes me happy. A monologue is not much fun, nor satisfying.Reanna, So glad that you are on board and can't wait ..."
Thanks for the insights Daniel. The short stories sound great. I thought Cal was pretty well developed in Weaveworld, but Suzanna, as Betsy says, is a little confusing, or maybe I'm just bringing a whole lot of previous Suzanna's with me. This one is extremely strong and self-assured whether she's fully aware of it or not.
Nick wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Betsy wrote: "I just knew that Stephen King fans would start showing up, and that makes me happy. A monologue is not much fun, nor satisfying.Reanna, So glad that you are on board ..."
It's been quite a while since I read it, and I'm not sure if my opinion were to change upon reading it again, I just remember feeling a little underwhelmed when it came to the characters. All in all, Weaveworld ranks pretty near the bottom of his work in my opinion--and that is no slight against Weaveworld, just a testament of how impressive his body of work is. I absolutely can't recommend The Books of Blood high enough for folks who like horror or dark fiction in general.
Daniel, You just made my day ! Thank you for showing up to the party :) Your comments re. Barker, whom I never read before Weaveworld and your recommendations for his best books, made me reconsider perhaps picking up another one of his books , which I never expected to do, and probably enjoying it more than I did this one. Thanks for the inspiration.
I just have to mention Inspector Hobart, one of the more interesting characters, IMO. He certainly has very strong, definite ideas about the LAW ! He also became captivated with Shadwell's jacket, which ended badly for him.What got my attention with him was how much he hated Suzanna. His obsession with her capture was, I thought, much like Insp. Javert's for Val Jean in "Les Mis".
Any thoughts re. Hobart ??
Always happy to join a party (especially when it's a book party)!I never likened Javert to Inspector Hobart, but now that you mentioned it, the similarities are certainly there. That's pretty cool. I might have to re read Weaveworld one of these days, but then I do still have a handful of Barker stories that I haven't gotten around to yet.
Have you read any Joe Hill, Betsy?
No, I haven't , Daniel, and shame on me :( I've heard many good things about his books and have had many positive recommendations .Which are your favorites and what would your one recommendation be?
I would "save" your Weaveworld re-read for when you are stuck on some deserted island and have nothing else to do :)
You pretty much can't go wrong with Joe Hill in my opinion (and I mentioned him because I think, if you're looking for strong characters, he'll deliver for you).Go for Heart-Shaped Box if you want a relentless, frightening ghost story with characters that might appear shallow at first but gradually reveal more and more layers.
Horns has a bit of everything, though it disappointed some looking for overt "scares." Hill shows some amazing range with this one--he had me at turns laughing and disturbed and moved. At it's heart, it's a supernatural mystery set in a small town with really rich characters and a fun twist on devils.
20th Century Ghosts is a brilliant collection of stories. Nobody should go through life without reading Pop Art.
N0S4A2 is a blast. I wouldn't start here, though (it's chock full of connections to his earlier works).
Oh, and if you're not opposed to graphic novels, Locke and Key is just brilliant. Prior to reading this series, I personally hadn't read many (or any) comics in my life, but I have no regrets. It's wonderful. I'd rank it up there with King's very best.
And yeah, I have a very loooooooong re-read list, so I doubt Weaveworld will be happening any time in the near future. :)
Just wanted to add before the thought leaves me....When Shadwell sees Immacolata at the Shrine and she lifts her veil and her face is a mutilated mass of raw tissue b/c of being mauled by Romo's lion's and she is beautiful no more, I FELT SO much for her /toward her! Clearly, something has been undone , also, inside her. This once mighty woman reduced to....
And, thank you, Daniel, for making my lonely monologue into at least something like a dialogue :) Golly, I thought that so many readers would read/comment on this book :(
Of course, Betsy. Talking books is one of my favorite things. :)
I'mstill with you Betsy, though a little behind... For some reason as despicable as Hobart turned out to be, I liked him as a character, interesting single minded relentless, and stupid. Joe Hill? He's great, King with a stronger sense oh humor... Though not as much so I'm heart shaped box.
Thanks for hanging in there w/ me, Nick ! Feel silly sometimes talking to myself :) I too found Hobart/ the character interesting , and I know that you like Joe Hill's writing.Will be off-line over the weekend. Going to see granddaughter perform in "Legally Blonde" at Carnegie Mellon U = fun!
Maybe when I return, this site will just be filled with all kinds of wonderful comments; right, I won't hold my breath.... We are right around 50%, if anyone is interested....
Betsy wrote: "Thanks for hanging in there w/ me, Nick ! Feel silly sometimes talking to myself :) I too found Hobart/ the character interesting , and I know that you like Joe Hill's writing.Will be off-line ov..."
The play does sound great... enjoy. BTW: in answer to your long lost question about that girl back in junior high... I did marry her.
And lived happily ever after.... :)
Betsy wrote: "And lived happily ever after.... :)"Pretty much.
Not a single new post :( Sad :(However, some more thoughts....
I enjoyed the part when Shadwell turns himself into the Prophet.
Hundreds of the Kind flocked to him in hopes of "seeing the place their hearts had never forgotten."
Why exactly did he do this ?
What was his purpose?
What did he want to happen from this?
Poor Shadwell.... he never got what he wanted, did he?
Betsy wrote: "Not a single new post :( Sad :(However, some more thoughts....
I enjoyed the part when Shadwell turns himself into the Prophet.
Hundreds of the Kind flocked to him in hopes of "seeing the place ..."
400 pages in (about 2/3rds) and I have to say Shadwell may be the greatest villain in the piece, worse even than Immacolata and her sisters. Salesman that he was, he seemed to know that one of the easiest ways to dupe people is with prophecy, and it worked pretty damn well for him... for a while anyway. Of course, I also have to add that the Seerkind seem very easily fooled. For all their blustering they're pretty easily taken down. I'm just getting into Suzanna's encounter with Hobart and Mimi's book, a part that I remember being disappointed in the first time I read this. Hope I like it better this time around.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Weave World (other topics)Dreamcatcher (other topics)
Imajica (other topics)
The Great and Secret Show (other topics)
Everville (other topics)
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