Weaveworld by Clive Barker

[Betsy]

I agree with you, Nick, the Seerkind like lambs to the slaughter, but perhaps when you have no world for 80 years and someone promises you everything as it once was, you believe what you want to believe ?
Yes, I agree too that Shadwell was a dastardly villain:
1. He betrays and humiliates Immacolata as they had planned to work together, and when money no longer satisfies him, he craves total power for himself.
2. He awakens the Scourge to finish off all traces of rapture (magic).
3. He has his battalions kill many Seerkind and declares war on anyone who challenges his authority.
4. He also had those horrible by-blows under his command against Immacolata.

I do think though that it was a great final confrontation between Shadwell/Immacolata as neither got what they wanted = Shadwell had nothing to possess, and Immacolata had wanted to see the Seerkind enslaved and destroyed.
Thanks, Nick, for continuing to slog along :)

[Nick]

Betsy wrote: "I agree with you, Nick, the Seerkind like lambs to the slaughter, but perhaps when you have no world for 80 years and someone promises you everything as it once was, you believe what you want to be..."

I am enjoying the book, though I have to admit that both the chapter on the dragon and on Mount Venis were both disappointing. Not sure what Barker's intent was but Unearthly Delights is maybe the least erotic chapter that was (maybe) supposed to be erotic I've ever read in spite of his use of obscenities. Still from that point on the book did start to pick up steam again. I'm happy to see Immacolata back in the fray. I'm starting to like her as a character finally. I'm at page 465 so far from the final confrontation.

[Betsy]

Because Shadwell felt tricked, he thought that he could find an ally in the Scourge, but he'd have to find it and awaken it.
The search for the Scourge ~ 76% got VERY tedious for me: the desert, the constant nothingness , one more hill to climb, the wall, and just more sand, etc.
I feel that King would have written things so differently here since we're moving toward the climax , and we know that the Scourge is coming for the remaining Seerkind,

Does anyone else feel this way?
I feel during this part that I was just one of the camels, plodding, plodding....
Could this part have been better told, in your opinion?

[Nick]

Betsy wrote: "Because Shadwell felt tricked, he thought that he could find an ally in the Scourge, but he'd have to find it and awaken it.
The search for the Scourge ~ 76% got VERY tedious for me: the desert, t..."

Okay, I apologize here, but I have to say that I just finished writing a new book which features camels plodding through the desert, and it moves along much faster that this. Though I'm not sure my villains can match Shadwell and Immacolata. The plodding that has gone on so far BTW, did remind me a little bit of all that plodding in Pet Cemetary. I do think King would have moved things along better, but he's guilty of some of these sins. And I do think that the chapter in which Shadwell decides that he can make an ally of the Scourage was I thought especially well done.

[Nick]

I'm listening to the audio book of Career of Evil by Galbraith (J. K. Rowlings) and I'm finding myself comparing the authors (Rowlings and Barker of Weaveworld) and their heroic women. Both Robin and Suzanna are very strong... in Suzanna's case certainly the strongest person in the book. But Betsy is right, in that she seems cold and, even at her most vulnerable, she's usually unsympathetic. The best way to see her is through Cal's eyes. Then she's a wonder. Robin is reason enough to read the Galbraith books; she's very strong too but it always comes as a surprise... even to her. She's surrounded by patronizing men and it's really only Strike, not her fiancee or her mother or anyone else, who understands just how impressively strong and talented she is. Still I think it's this mix of vulnerability and strength and the terrible threat of and struggle with the conventional roles and expectations still assigned to women that make her so intriguing. As for the authors: Rowlings is clearly a master storyteller, and when I reflect on it, which I shouldn't, I feel comfortable that the story is in her hands. Barker has these magnificent concepts but his writing skill is all over the map. His failure seems especially to be occasional overindulgence in incidents and descriptions that are really unnecessary and demotivating to readers.

[Betsy]

This is my first Barker book so I have nothing with which to compare , but I will agree 100%, Nick, about his "overindulgences in incidents/descriptions " which are really "unnecessary and demotivating to readers". To me, he simply rambles and wanders around too much. I wonder that his editor didn't rein him in and cut out all the extra "stuff".
However, although I read and loved some of Rowlings' Harry Potter books, her Cuckoo's Calling did not knock my socks off either. I liked it but not well enough to read the 2nd book.
I do still think that Weaveworld , in concept, is impressive!

[Betsy]

My last comment before my final question:

Cal had to find Shadwell's jacket which had been thrown away b/c he knew the illusions it contained would have an impact on the Scourge. Cal told Uriel, the Scourge's chosen name, that ...."the jacket is for you; whatever you see, it's yours,"
And, what did it most desire? (view spoiler)[ ANOTHER Uriel, its equal, to see its own true face, finally. (hide spoiler)]
Then, we're told: "Then it was gone." =VERY anti-climatic, I thought. All this big lead up to the Scourge and what it would do to finish off all traces of raptures/magic and then.... NOTHING?! The Scourge just abandoned its cause ????

[Betsy]

Time to move on , but I do have some final questions. So, to the Stephen King fans out there who might choose to help me with these before I stop talking to myself, and to Nick, these are things that are still unclear:
1. So, did Shadwell kill Immacolata with the knife? Because when Suzanna went into the Shrine later, Immacolata was there and talked to Suzanna telling her "it's now in your hands." Is Immacolata just now one of the talking dead?
2. So, what happened to Shadwell? There is no mention of when he escaped, where did he go? No one killed him, that I missed, did they?
3. So, this was all about yearning for a past place of perfection and what all these characters did to get it back?
4. So, are the Seerkind now living peacefully w/ the Cuckoos OR are they living in their own separate world?
I do give Barker credit for a stunning piece of imagination; it just rambled WAY too long for me.
And, I'd like to know from a MOD: the books that we recommend to King, are they or are they not DISCUSSION books or simply recommendations? I love a good discussion (like we had with Gerald's Game and Rose Madder ) but, unfortunately, this never turned into a discussion. Thanks to Nick, and a few others, for their comments/posts!

[Nick]

I ended up feeling I had to complete the book, though there were long stretches in the last hundred pages when things really dragged. I only wish that Barker had a better sense of storytelling timing to match his grand visions, which are fabulous. In the end, I was glad that (view spoiler)[Suzanna and Cal got together and became lovers, and that the Seerkind were saved. Also, that Shadwell got his due. I also thought that the resolution with the angel was absolutely perfect. (hide spoiler)] I agree with you Betsy that Barker can't develop his heroes as well as he should. I thought Suzanna was a perfectly strong heroine but she did always seem cold and the love between her and Cal or even her first lover never felt all that passionate. I may adjust my rating based on this second read. (BTW the first was listening to the audiobook, which might be a better way to approach this work.) Finally, I thought Mimi's book was a great device and its role in the story was one of the best things about the book.

[Marcus]

This wasn't what I expected from my first Clive Barker novel. I was expecting more of the gory details that are in his film adaptations. This had its share of gore but, nothing crazy. I really enjoyed the fantasy aspect of the book. The villains, especially, were fun in their own ways.

One question though, what happened to the Scourge? Did it just become one with itself and live happily ever after? Did I fall asleep and miss something there?

Overall, I really liked this and was a great intro to Clive Barker as a writer. I'm wondering what, of his, to read next?

[Daniel]

Marcus wrote: "This wasn't what I expected from my first Clive Barker novel. I was expecting more of the gory details that are in his film adaptations. This had its share of gore but, nothing crazy. I really enjo..."

The Damnation game for a full-length work, or The Books of Blood for an incredible collection of shorts and novellas.

[Nick]

Marcus wrote: "This wasn't what I expected from my first Clive Barker novel. I was expecting more of the gory details that are in his film adaptations. This had its share of gore but, nothing crazy. I really enjo..."

So the Scourage was the archangel Uriel (inside of Shadwell) who selected a gift from the amazing coat... - now let's see if I got this right - a reflection of himself, another Uriel. "But looking on itself ... it shed that lunacy and shedding it looked starward. There were heavens it had business in where the age it had wasted here was but a day and its grief, ALL grief, an unknown state. It rose, it and itself, in triumphant splendor." So yes, it rose in triumphant splendor... I guess you could translate that as "lived happily ever after."