THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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2016 - April - Theme Read on any Air Battle or Campaign of WW2
I've now reached January 1945 in my narrative, with two separate Coastal Command Strike Wings, Mosquitoes at Banff and Beaufighters at Dallachy. I came across the following description of a flight home after a strike was bounced over Leirvik on Boxing Day 1944:"A 190 got on our tail. Bill was taking the most violent evasive action to shake off the fighter, frequently seeing streams of bullets churning up the sea but not hitting the aircraft, when I noticed the port wing was about to dip into the sea. I shrieked into the intercom and he corrected just in time. Heading well out to sea the Focke Wulf flew off. I contacted the Warwick [ASR support] by radio telephone being safely 20 Mike's out from enemy fighters, and fired off all the Very pistol cartridges I could find - red, green, yellow, any colour you name. Eventually the Warwick located us and escorted us back to base. I remember Bill thinking it was a huge joke when he asked the pilot of the Warwick if we were flying too fat for him. I can't recall the reply but I don't think it was particularly polite."(F/O Ginger Webster)
You can be appreciated, but don't expect any respect!
Manray9 wrote: "Derek wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think I read in one of my recent books on the Atlantic Campaign that Goering wasn't too keen to share the Conder and its capabilities with the ..."The RAF grew out if the RN (in part), a shared history that the Luftwaffe and KM didn't have.
Erik wrote: "Hi Skylar, try this book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
I think there are some books on the Malta air contribution to isolating North Af..."
The trade off by Speer in keeping production up was in improvements - in that there weren't any once a type was settled on for mass production. So per month in 1945 fighter production was astoundingly high - but those types were so last year. Very many of Wilmot's footnotes in The Struggle for Europe come from the strategic bombing survey and the PLO campaign.
Manray9 wrote: "From Kenneth Poolman's 
Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic.The FW-200s used a standard attack tactic against m..."
On the British TV programme Coast, on the Eire / NI episode, they mentioned that Eire allowed Coastal Command cats from Lough Erne to fly over Eire airspace rather tgan going around the block. I found that a little surprising - the allowed part.
Erik wrote: "@ 4ZZZ I think there is some justifications that can be made, but honestly they are pretty weak. Most of the industry was commercial, which was surprisingly still common in Germany even with the wa..."There was also a very strong pre war belief - conjecture might be a better word - that strategic bombing was the war winner in itself rather than part of a bigger puzzle. Harris was a devotee of the doctrine. Still, it's only a war crime if you lose.
An unexpected incident whilst flying a Stinson Sentinel aircraft in the Burma theatre:" ... On his first flight in a Sentinel, McLellan's load was a fairly senior captured Japanese officer, who had been badly wounded, and was to be returned to base for interrogation. During the flight, McLellan suddenly felt two hands choking him. The Japanese officer had escaped his bonds and seemed determined to take McLellan with him to the grave. McLellan carried a heavy stick with him in case he crashed in the jungle, and used it to silence his recalcitrant passenger. On arrival at base, waiting British officers were unimpressed that McLellan had killed his captive. One of them threatened disciplinary action, until McLellan defiantly stated that if punished he would take it up with the Australian liaison officer in India and his own Member of Parliament."
The Stinson Sentinel:
http://www.warbirdalley.com/l5.htm
Another hazard of the Pacific campaign:"So complete was Allied air domination in the region that the day before the Noemfoor landing, aircraft flew over the invasion area to spray DDT: flying insects were more troublesome here than flying Japanese."
I wonder what the Japanese defenders on the ground thought was happening when they got sprayed :)
Jamie wrote: "I'm going to have a flick through America is in Danger because it seems to match the theme."Hope you can join in with your book Jamie.
The heartbreak of war:"During this raid the horrified troopers saw Jack Fowler's Beaufort disintegrate in a ball of fire when its bombs detonated prematurely on release. Some aircrew had gone on patrol with the commandos several weeks earlier, to witness air-ground communication methods, and the troops had come to see this RAAF squadron as 'true brothers in arms'.
Among Fowler's crew was Geoff Waite, who had been Mentioned in Despatches for 'distinguished services' in North-Western Area. The former policeman had left England 11 years earlier with his wife. The widow's badge she received as acknowledgement of her loss is now in the Australian War Memorial. So are a few of the loving letters that Jack Shipman, of the same crew, wrote about five times a week to his mother. He had made his 100th operational sortie just days earlier, and with the rest of the crew was close to finishing his tour."
https://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/b...
Jamie wrote: "The RAF grew out if the RN (in part), a shared history that the Luftwaffe and KM didn't have...."According to Schellenberg, the bureaucratic in-fighting among various arms of the German government was so vicious, he had machine guns installed in the pedestals of his desk at the SD, arranged to sweep the front of his office at the press of a lever. Lack of cooperation seems the rule within the Third Reich.
Operation Chastise (The Dambusters Raid): Review of John Sweetman's excellent book at https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
J. wrote: "Jamie wrote: "The RAF grew out if the RN (in part), a shared history that the Luftwaffe and KM didn't have...."According to Schellenberg, the bureaucratic in-fighting among various arms of the Ge..."
In my many interviews with Germans from the war (see my books), that was not unusual.
With MacArthur moving onto his destiny in the Philippines the Australian forces were left behind to conduct mopping up operations which many did not see the point of. With US forces bypassing some Japanese strongholds to 'wither on the vine', why not do the same instead of risking valuable lives and resources. The Japanese had recalled as many of their aircraft as they could for home defence, leaving nothing worth while to destroy:The targets were often airstrips, dangerous objectives as they were likely to be defended by flak. Jock Scott remarks pointedly:
All we did was to make the Japs use their endless supply of anti-aircraft ammo and improve their shooting. They were isolated, unsupplied, ineffectual and without an effective role to play in the war. - Except to shoot at stupid buggers in Kittyhawks.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "With MacArthur moving onto his destiny in the Philippines the Australian forces were left behind to conduct mopping up operations which many did not see the point of. With US forces bypassing some ..."I've pondered from time to time the need to go into Borneo (for instance) so late in the piece. I guess those who planned it didn't know / didn't put much stock in the ultimate siege weapon.
Valid point Jamie, it would appear that a lot of good men died for no real advantage but I suppose that is common in all wars.
Here is an interesting quote from my book:"One estimate says that Catalinas rescued 540 allied pilots during the war. A senior Japanese commander later noted that Japanese pilots respected the Catalina crews bravery, and regretted that Japan had not provided such help for its own personnel."
Another observation on RAAF Liberator's used in the Pacific War:"Much as their crews liked the 'dear old Lib', which once airborne 'flew like a bird', the B-24 had a terrible record when ditching in the sea. It tended to flood in seconds, for when belly-landed of heavily ditched, Liberators often fell apart at the forward bomb-bay bulkhead, and the insubstantial bomb-bay doors regularly collapsed. The crew in the rear of the fuselage rarely escaped alive. An RAF study of 16 ditched Liberators showed that only eight of 131 crewmen survived, and only one of them was in the rear. Australian Liberators spent most of their time over water, but the RAAF did not follow an RAF modification, which reinforced the fuselage. If a Liberator had to ditch, baling out was advisable."
Consolidated B-24 Liberator:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consoli...
I interviewed many B-24 men, including BGEN and actor James Stewart, they all had their stories about the Lib.
I think often times decisions about where to advance were based on post-war expectations of colonial possession retention. Possession is 9/10ths the law, right? By getting troops on the ground in these territories, it offered better negotiation conditions.
My uncle fromAdelaide took part in the Borneo landings and not a great fan. Interestingly he was in infantry training at Cowra when the Japanese prison breakout occurred and took part in search for escapees. Quite an experience for an 18/19 year old.
Curtis E Lemay is an interesting guy. His premise is that as a military professional he is qualified to talk on military matters. So far so good. Whereas defence intellectuals are not. The reason is that defence intellectuals are... defence intellectuals. It's a rather circular straw man argument. And not only are straw men easy targets - they're ripe for incendiary bombing for one thing.It also means that critics of his thesis are, by not being top brass, unqualified to comment or critique. I'm being a bit harsh here - but I get the impression that civilian control of the military doesn't sit well with him, unless it's by Eisenhower (which I get) or by Churchill (which I take to mean that Lemay never had a war-time cuppa with Brookie.)
The chapter on how to win the war in Vietnam (I skipped ahead after the preliminary chapters) is very interesting - and he makes what I am assured are valid points (I'm a civilian, which means I out to educate myself on understanding military stuff - but also means I'm unqualified to question or doubt). Aircraft are fast, so the time delay between finding/fixing/fighting is very short. Also, by adopting a total approach, the North Vietnamese can be brought to brook and settlement very quickly. All that's needed is the will to do so. And if you've got the will then going nuclear is simply using a means at your disposal and is not to be fared. Certainly the risk of nuclear escalation is overstated (by intellectuals I assume).
He's a tad short on details as to how best to use nuclear weapons to win in Vietnam. There's no real mention of target types, or effectiveness. And his faith in escalation not being something to be fared is not very well developed or explored. And his examples of successful use of conventional air bombing in Vietnam aren't developed into how by doing more such strikes will lead inexorably to victory - save that it will lead to victory. Saying it appears to make it so.
He is writing of a future that for us is long past - and it's easy to be unfair. But at the risk of making it clear how unqualified I am to judge or comment I have to say that he's not been particularly rigorous (intellectually) in some (many) of the assumptions he's made. I keep thinking of Tuchman's line about dead generals and their dead grip.
How does this connect to WWII? - possibly not at all. Save that C E L was involved in the strategic bombing of Japan. So we have the wisdom of that operational experience coming through in his book, perhaps. I don't know much about Carl Spaatz, save that after VE day he headed to the Pacific. And that Spaatz organised the strategic bombing survey with respect to post-war Europe. I get the impression that Spaatz had the intellectual touch of the two.
I knew Lemay and interviewed him, he was definitely one of a kind, and he and Doolittle (who I also knew) did not see eye to eye on many things.
Erik wrote: "I think often times decisions about where to advance were based on post-war expectations of colonial possession retention. Possession is 9/10ths the law, right? By getting troops on the ground in these territories, it offered better negotiation conditions...."I suspect you're right. That was certainly true of the ETO, where Russian expansionism trumped many other concerns.
4ZZZ wrote: "Hi all. Finished Dresden and review up.https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5..."
Great review 4ZZZ, I'm glad you enjoyed the book as much as I did, and thanks for sharing your views with the group.
If your still interested in the subject here is another great book that covers the raid against Hamburg:
Inferno: The Fiery Destruction of Hamburg, 1943 by Keith Lowe
Just finished A Separate Little War...A Separate Little War: The Banff Coastal Command Strike Wing Versus the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe in Norway September 1944 to May 1945
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "If your still interested in the subject here is another great book that covers the raid against Hamburg:[book:Inferno: The Fiery ..."Cheers Rick. I have marked TBR. If I see this around I will definitely grab a copy. My dad was stationed in Hamburg during his national service with the Brit army in the 50's.
Jonny wrote: "Just finished A Separate Little War...A Separate Little War: The Banff Coastal Command Strike Wing Versus the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe in Norway September 1944 to May 1945"
After reading your review and the discussion in this thread I have been having a look at what is available as general historical coverage for the RAF Coastal Command during WW2. The wiki is seemingly rather good compared to some I have read. I am finding it's Bibliography interesting but showing little in the terms of an overall history. Unless I have missed something and there are other books available there seems to me an opening for a general book on the subject.
4ZZZ wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Just finished A Separate Little War...A Separate Little War: The Banff Coastal Command Strike Wing Versus the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe in Norway September 1944 to May 1945Deep Sea Hunters: RAF Coastal Command and the War Against the U-Boats and the German Navy 1939-1945
Just had a mooch on the Kindle Store, which turned up
Deep Sea Hunters: RAF Coastal Command and the War Against the U-Boats and the German Navy 1939-1945and
Cinderella Service: RAF Coastal Command 1939 - 1945both of which may be worth a look. Coastal Command does seem a little overlooked, especially by me. My grandad, who served as a Marine AA gunner, always said he felt safest when he could see a Liberator or a Cat
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "If your still interested in the subject here is another great book that covers the raid against Hamburg:[book:Inferno: The Fiery ..."I interviewed a few of the German night fighter pilots (Wolf Falck, Hans-Joachim Jabs, Peter Spoden, Hajo Herrmann,, etc) and RAF Bomber Command guys (such as Bill Reid, VC) about this particular mission, very interesting stories. This was also the start of Hajo Herrmann's creation of the "Wilde Sau" (Wild Boar) night fighter unit, using Me-109 and Fw-190 day fighters with search lights, working as sight hunters alongside the radar guided night fighters.
Firestorm Hamburg: The Facts Surrounding the Destruction of a German City 1943I'd suggest this book on the Battle of Hamburg as well. I'm working my way through it now, not going as fast as I wanted because I got sick for awhile. But it's really good and definitely worth picking up.
Marc wrote: " Firestorm Hamburg: The Facts Surrounding the Destruction of a German City 1943I..."
It's hard to beat Martin Middlebrook, he has published some excellent books on WW2.
I just finished my read, Dam Busters: The True Story of the Legendary Raid on the Ruhrit's a solid 4 star read. Some things I learned
(view spoiler)
I'll post some quotes later.
Glad you enjoyed the book as much as I did Happy :)
Damm you rick. Another booki will have to get as also visiting Hamburg in a couple of months. Was going to be more of Beatles pilgrimage. Also going to warnumdee as well as somme
Alex wrote: "Damm you rick. Another booki will have to get as also visiting Hamburg in a couple of months. Was going to be more of Beatles pilgrimage. Also going to warnumdee as well as somme"Glad I could help Alex :)
Once again I'm a little late with my theme read, but I started
The Forgotten Few: The Polish Air Force in the Second World War today. the dedication sets the tone of the book: To the men and women of the Polish Air Force who fought so long and so hard for so little.
Manray9 wrote: "From: Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic by Kenneth Poolman.Much has been written about the Catapult Aircraft..."
The Germans had their own equivalent of the Parachute and Cable Projector, known to the RN as PAC Rocket Projector. A rocket fired from a simple angle-iron launcher rose to about 600 ft then disintegrated, deploying a parachute with a 300 ft wire dangling from it. The blockade-runner Alsterufer is said to have fired about 20 of them during her last fight.
Derek wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "From: Focke-Wulf Condor: Scourge Of The Atlantic by Kenneth Poolman.Much has been written about the C..."
Interesting, Derek. Thanks. It all seems so primitive now.
A.L. wrote: "Once again I'm a little late with my theme read, but I started [book:The Forgotten Few: The Polish Air Force in t..."Never too late to join in A.L. I hope you enjoy your book, keep us posted.
Just a few final thoughts and numbers before I put
A Separate Little War: The Banff Coastal Command Strike Wing Versus the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe in Norway September 1944 to May 1945 before it goes back on the shelf:"The anti-shipping strike offensive had resulted in a reduction from 8,500,000 tons of cargo in and out of Norwegian ports in 1944, to less than 500,000 tons per annum by the end of February 1945."
All this while faced with heavy flak, fighters and the worst that the North Sea could throw (which is pretty horrendous). There are many strikes cancelled due to bad weather, airstrikes at mast height in the teeth of snowstorms, and the perennial problem of salt spray on windscreens as a result of low level transits. This was definitely a story that deserved to be told. I will have to stick to my guns and read further on Coastal Command.
Nice review Jonny.
Jonny: I have a copy of Ian Carter's
Coastal Command 1939-45: Photographs From the Imperial War Museumit contains hundred of excellent photos accompanied by explanatory text.
Cheers guys. The book might come in handy, I've pulled my part built Tamiya TorBeau out of the cupboard to finish (there's a Mossie as well, but one at a time...ish), inspired by the read. My wife will doubtless be thanking you all later.....
A few quoted from my read,Dam Busters: The True Story of the Legendary Raid on the RuhrAir Marshall Harris' reaction when he first got the proposal for the raid. He wrote on the memo
"This is tripe of the wildest description. There are so many ifs and buts that there is not the smallest chance of it working"
On training and low level flying
"before they reached the actual bridge itself, a set of power cables crossed over the canal. Just for fun, McCarthy (one of the 617th's pilots) would take the Lancaster even lower and fly under the cables, then pull up over the bridge...
On one occasion...flying at not much under 100 ft, when Johnson, sitting in the nose of the Lancaster, had the shock of his life. Suddenly, a Lancaster thundered past, - underneath. "
Some great posts here from folks, thanks for sharing, I've enjoyed them all!
I guess my theme read isn't about a specific air battle or campaign--it's covering the entire war. But it is about flying, and it's a good read so far, so I guess I'll keep reading it. 
The Forgotten Few: The Polish Air Force in World War IIThe first chapter covered the beginnings of the Polish Air Force, and I thought this was interesting:
On 14 July 1919 two American pilots, Major Cedric E. Fauntleroy and Captain Merian C. Cooper, were moved at the sight of Polish units that had fought with the Allies on the Western Front parading up the Champs-Elysees. Hearing that Poland was threatened by invasion from Russia, they assembled another fifteen American pilots and set off for Warsaw. They were seconded to the 3rd Fighter Squadron, which was renamed the Kościuszko Squadron (in memory of the Polish patriot who took part in the American War of Independence), and they fought with distinction in the Polish-Bolshevik war of 1919-21.
I had heard about the Lafayette Escadrille, but not the Kościuszko Squadron. I love learning new things!
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
Dam Busters: The True Story of the Legendary Raid on the Ruhr (other topics)Dam Busters: The True Story of the Legendary Raid on the Ruhr (other topics)
The Forgotten Few: The Polish Air Force in the Second World War (other topics)
Firestorm Hamburg: The Facts Surrounding the Destruction of a German City, 1943 (other topics)
The Conquering Tide: War in the Pacific Islands, 1942–1944 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Adam Zamoyski (other topics)Keith Lowe (other topics)
Mark D. Johnston (other topics)
Frederick Taylor (other topics)
Mark D. Johnston (other topics)
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Picky-picky. ;)