Austenesque Lovers TBR Pile Reading Challenge 2016 discussion
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Amanda
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May 12, 2016 11:11AM
That's an interesting point. I didn't think about it still being a work in progress for her.
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The possibility of what could have been is the tantalizing part. Guess that's why I perk right up when someone writes 'the lost manuscript' stories. :)
OK, I'm 70% through. Lady Susan has just given up on pairing her daughter with Sir James. I'm sorry, but I have to bring American politics into this discussion because I get exactly the the same visceral reaction reading about the way Lady Susan lies and rationalizes her behavior to Reggie that I do when I listen to anything Donald Trump says. She gets so indignant in her letter to Mrs. Johnson that Reggie actually believed her daughter rather than her. It's like she's pathological! I mean, she knows she's lying, but her reaction to not being believed is as if she were actually telling the truth- again, like DT. I apologize to any DT supporters who may read this, but I admit to feeling the same absolute incomprehensibility at the gullibility of those who believe Lady Susan's load of crap that I feel about followers of DT. The Emperor really has no clothes!!!! I just wish that American politics right now were just a work of fiction and not an embarrassing reality.
Mod
I'm not sure which edition you were able to read, but in mine there are annotated notes. The editor speculated that Lady Susan is based on Jane Austen's friend, Martha Lloyd's grandmother who was an awful, abusive mother like this to Martha's mother and her siblings.
And sigh...American politics are a circus right now for sure though I have no urge to snag my popcorn for the show.
Hmmmm.... I'm thinking about what a good author could do with The Donald if he were a character in a book instead of a real person. Some huge comeuppance is clearly in order!
Mod
Oh, c'mon! I don't want to be the only one! Start, already!
Lol!! Sophia will boot me out if I get on my soapbox!! I have little faith in elected officials, I have been turned off by both parties, but yes, I know who I will vote for and that has never changed for me!
I'm with you except for knowing who I'll vote for. I'm registered as Independent. My main frustration is the lack of cooperation and, in fact, demonization that goes on back and forth between the two major parties.But honestly, I'm not trying to get off the topic of Lady Susan. I really see a parallel. Many elected officials and The (infamous) Donald have the gift of making lies believable, not unlike Lady Susan herself.
Yes, I absolutely agree about the parallels! But, in Lady Susan's defense, and don't get too angry at this... She was also a true victim of her times! Women were so reduced in their abilities to control their lives, I actually find her refreshing in some ways because she's brilliant and a she's a survivor!
I happen to think most of the men in this novella are portrayed as being pretty shallow and not too bright; was this not also a statement Austen was making about gender inequality?
Lady Susan has the brains and the guts, but not much in the ways of true power compared with the ridiculous men in this story. She's just playing them the way she needs to in order to survive and to make sure her daughter is well-established.
I also have a soft spot for Willoughby, so maybe my inner rebel needs some taming!! Lol!!
Not angry, and I agree that her options are severely restricted because she's a woman. Now, don't get angry at me, but I'd have more sympathy for her if she just became someone's mistress. She obviously doesn't have an objection on the basis of morals (because she doesn't have any), it would give her plenty of money to live in style, and she wouldn't have to hang with people she despises and pretend to be someone she isn't. She just plain enjoys toying with other people and bending them to her will.And I don't think you can come up with a defense of her style of mothering. Her way of making sure her daughter is well-established is to get her married to a man she plans to carry on an affair with. ICK!
Agree 100% that these men are dumb and all apparently think with the wrong part of their anatomy.
Lol!! Great points Debbie!She may be better off as a mistress, but perhaps she just enjoys her freedom too much... Who knows??
Yes, she is not a kind person and her treatment of her daughter is shallow and self-serving, but... Is she much worse than lots of these other haughty mothers bidding their daughters off to the highest bidder?
I think for me the one thing I love the most about Austen is all of the ways she illustrates the struggles women endured in their time; and yet, we still have a long waaaaaay to go. What bothers me more than anything is how many women are clueless about what others have endured for us to enjoy the rights and privileges that we have.
Austen's gift for me is her ability to create these multilayered and highly complex individuals who portray so many aspects of these issues; yet, at the same time there are redeemable qualities in so many of her characters.
I think the funniest part is that man she seems to love the most says little or absolutely nothing in the whole story. What does that tell us??
Mod
Claudine wrote: "Lol!! Great points Debbie!She may be better off as a mistress, but perhaps she just enjoys her freedom too much... Who knows??
Yes, she is not a kind person and her treatment of her daughter is ..."
Is she much worse than other haughty mothers? YES! None of them are planning to have an affair with their daughters' husbands!!
I haven't figured out who Lady Susan loves the most. I guess you mean Mr. Manwaring? I don't get that she loves anybody except herself. Sounds as though Manwaring comes closest, though it's not as though she mentions him much. Out of sight, out of mind.
I find Mrs. Vernon to be a strong, intelligent character. Another woman! It's almost like these two ladies are matched against each other. Not directly, since other characters are involved, but Mrs. Vernon keeps trying to ferret out what Susan is really up to and make some counter moves to protect Reggie and Frederica from this awful schemer.
Yes, the women in this story are the wittiest ones!I don't want to spoil who she "loves," but I think his actions are another statement by Austen.
Isn't it crazy that a young, "sheltered" woman wrote this?
Absolutely crazy. What a genius she was!
Sophia wrote: "Love reading you ladies appreciate Austen's legacy and her work. It is universal and stands the test of time."Sorry. Didn't mean to ignore you, Sophia. You're right, of course, or we wouldn't have so much fun discussing it 200 years later!
Finished!! I've been taking this one slowly, reading just a few letters at a time in between reading other books. Love the ending, though I wish Lady Susan had gotten more of a smackdown.
Debbie wrote: "Finished!! I've been taking this one slowly, reading just a few letters at a time in between reading other books. Love the ending, though I wish Lady Susan had gotten more of a smackdown."I'm glad you enjoyed it. I can't wait to read Whit Stillman's "Love & Friendship" also since I LOVE what he did with the movie!!
Must mention a quote from Chapter XXV by Lady Susan to Mrs. Johnson where she brags about her manipulation of Reginald the day after he confronted her about Frederica not wanting to marry Sir James: There is something agreeable in feelings so easily worked on; not that I envy him their possession, nor would, for the world, have such myself; but they are very convenient when one wishes to influence the passions of another.Wow!
Finished today on the train home. The only down part about reading on the train is if you laugh out loud to yourself people stair at you, and think you are crazy. They can see that I am reading, why is it weird if I laugh? Okay rant over!I loved it. Kind of creepy, but I actually have some friends whose mom is a lot like Lady Susan. It was really interesting reading a character like that, and how she views herself. She can totally justify what she does, and really doesn't see how it affects those around her.
Sophia wrote: "LOL! Yes, beware of angering an author, they'll put you in their book."LOL! I just sent a review of Pies and Prejudice(The Mother-Daughter Book Club #4) to Rita of All Things Jane Austen to post sometime in the near future. That happens in the book, as one of the dads in Pies includes one of the mothers in a book he writes concerning the American Revolution, based in Concord, MA of course! (P.S. Loved your review Sophia and made mention of it...in lieu of writing one of my figure eight/etch-a-stetch reviews!)
Ahnya wrote: "Finished today on the train home. The only down part about reading on the train is if you laugh out loud to yourself people stair at you, and think you are crazy. They can see that I am reading, wh..."I think we all know people who carelessly go about their lives, causing problems and casting blame on others when things go wrong.
I read a review of the movie "Love and Friendship." The reviewer pointed out that at one point, Lady Susan claims that she has plenty of money, but she is also continually living on the charity of others throughout the book. I have to say that she is nothing if not resourceful. She always finds a way to get someone else to take care of her when needed.
Sophia wrote: "I remember that part and had the same thought. I laughed b/c yes, she wasn't incensed about being caught, but about her lie losing out to her daughter's truth. I'm not sure which edition you were..."
Interesting! I didn't know about Martha Lloyd's grandmother...
Claudine wrote: "Lol!! Great points Debbie!She may be better off as a mistress, but perhaps she just enjoys her freedom too much... Who knows??
Yes, she is not a kind person and her treatment of her daughter is ..."
You made me reflect, Claudine, thank you!
(sorry if I make more posts, I can't quote more than one person in one post)
I wanted to read Lady Susan slowly, but in a sec there was a Conclusion, so, I have to unite First impression and First date, sorry.Well, the cover of my book is simple, in a white and violet theme and the bust of a girl with a straw hat. It includes The Watson and Sanditon, too, beside Lady Susan, but I choose to reread only this one, for now.
There is a very short Introduction, I would have liked something longer.
I like very much the epistolary style, some years ago I read Dangerous Liaisons by Choderlos de Laclos, that is in the same form, and I enjoyed it.
About Lady Susan: I didn't remember the story very clearly and, as it happens every time I (but probably all, I believe) reread one of the novels by J.A., I see something new (this time with the help of Claudine and the entire group).
Here is some random considerations:
- my esteem for Jane Austen as a writer and observer grows more and more every time;
- sometimes I think about someone I know and wonder: "What would Jane Austen write about him/her?". It would be so interesting to read!
- According to you, does Lady Susan believe in her own lies?
- J.A. is able to describe so well a woman that has fun in manipulating others, it sometimes seems like a personal challenge.
- I felt such tenderness towards Frederica! And I can't understand a mother that is so cruel toward her own daughter!
- I have a doubt about Mrs Johnson: is she really a friend to Lady Susan, or does she pretend almost all the time?
- I can't wait to see the movie!!
Mod
@Kirk- I am definitely curious about your review, now. I forgot that about writing in the character. Haha, yes! You probably had a more definite picture of the setting in your mind when you were reading since its in MA.
@Ahnya- I've had the same troubles about reading in public. People get strange when you respond to your book even if they know you are reading. But good that you were able to finish up and now you can entertain the train crowd with another book. ;)
@ Carmen- Glad you were able to finish up. You pointed out an interesting thing. Mrs. Johnson was a curiosity for me, too. To even be friends, they must have been somewhat alike.
@Carmen I wasn't too sure what to think about Mrs Johnon at first either. But after Lady Susan left Churchill and Mrs Johnson was actively involved in keeping Mr Mainwaring and Reginald apart and having a place for Lady Susan to meet discreetly with the men, I decided that they were of the same ilk. I think Mrs Johnson just happened to marry very well and was staying in it so she could live in away that befitted her wants.
@Sophia and @Amanda: Thank you for your opinions!
@Amanda I think you might be right about Mrs. Johnson. She would be in the thick of things with Lady Susan if she wasn't worried about losing her marriage. It is interesting that Mr. Johnson sees right through Lady Susan where other men don't. She is not able to charm or manipulate him.
Mod
He probably got really good at spotting lies being married to Alicia.
Debbie wrote: "Not angry, and I agree that her options are severely restricted because she's a woman. Now, don't get angry at me, but I'd have more sympathy for her if she just became someone's mistress. She obvi..."If she became a mistress she would be denied access to the homes of ordinary decent people which I don't think she could cope with for all her self absorption. As a flirt, she's looked on as someone dangerous but still someone that one can invite to one's house. As a mistress that's a no no. And I don't think she could give this up. For all her 'don't care attitude'!
Ahnya wrote: "@Amanda I think you might be right about Mrs. Johnson. She would be in the thick of things with Lady Susan if she wasn't worried about losing her marriage. It is interesting that Mr. Johnson sees..."
Amanda wrote: "He probably got really good at spotting lies being married to Alicia."
Sophia wrote: "Ha, good one, Amanda!"
Well, if Alicia IS anything like Susan (and it seems like a pretty good bet that she is), then Mr. Johnson would've been snowed by that act before, or he wouldn't have been dumb enough to get married to her. I do believe it's a case of "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." He knows what's behind the mask now and he ain't falling for it anymore.
Teresa wrote: "If she became a mistress she would be denied access to the homes of ordinary decent people which I don't think she could cope with for all her self absorption. As a flirt, she's looked on as someone dangerous but still someone that one can invite to one's house. As a mistress that's a no no. And I don't think she could give this up. For all her 'don't care attitude'!"I agree that Susan would be persona non grata in any polite household. But I've read other historical novels where mistresses actually have more of a social life than wives when their paramours don't care about being discreet. And she seems to have such disdain for gentlewomen. She might miss having these people to manipulate, but I don't think she'd miss any "friendships."
@Debbie - I think you're right about Mr Johnson. If he did fall for a false image that Alicia was portraying, I'm sure he realized that he had been played pretty quickly after they married. It would make him more aware of similar behavior in Lady Susan. I'm sure he was trying to warn Reginald when he took him to his study and had a lengthy discussion.
Amanda wrote: "I'm sure he was trying to warn Reginald when he took him to his study and had a lengthy discussion. ."I know Jane Austen never wrote scenes where a woman wasn't in the room, but wouldn't THAT discussion be interesting to read!!
@Amanda and DebbieGood point about Mr. J being fooled by Alicia. It also could be that Susan brings out the worst in Alicia as well.
That would be a good convo between Mr. J and Reg.
You ladies always impress me with your intelligent discussion, and this book is no exception. I find that I'm not equal to matching the discussion...though I did finally get around to reading this today, so I wanted to weigh in officially.Overall, honestly, I didn't love this book. It's well-written, and the characters are incredibly vibrant, but from the standpoint of entertainment only, I felt dissatisfied upon finishing it. I think it's largely due to none of the characters with a significant storyline being likeable. Frederica was too passive and off screen to really get attached. I guess Mrs. Vernon is the closest thing to a character that I liked, but her only real active role is as a support to Frederica. And the story wasn't about her, so it's harder to get attached.
As a character study, though, it's pretty fascinating. And I agree with everyone above regarding Jane Austen's age when she wrote this versus the depth and insight of the portrayal.
Mod
Glad to add your perceptions to the group as well, Eliza. It is hard to get vested in a story about unlikeable characters. I felt that way during my first read of this one. However, for some reason, the second time through, it struck me as more comedic and I laughed at her outrageousness and she reminded me of a Heyer character more than an Austen character.
Thank you Eliza, I too felt the same way about reading Lady Susan. I kept trying to look at it from an entertainment perspective but failed. I thought it was well written and a great character study, but I just didn't quite get into it. I kept thinking how young JA was when she wrote this story and how young maidens were not to know about these subjects. Probably just me and my overactive brain.
If you're reading the version that includes The Watsons and Sanditon I would continue on and read those. I really enjoyed the Watsons. It's such a pity it was never finished.
Mod
I agree. A great pity.
Austenesque Lovers TBR Pile Reading Challenge 2016
Books mentioned in this topic
Love and Freindship (other topics)Daddy Long Legs (other topics)
Lady Susan (other topics)
Emma and Elizabeth (other topics)
Brinshore (other topics)
