The Heart is a Lonely Hunter -- Buddy Read

[Sam F]

I've just finished reading the first part of the book as well and am loving it. After reading what was posted about McCullers I am amazed at how insightful she is into human behaviour - at such a young age. I agree with Kathleen and MMG on their perspective about the first part of the book and I'm excited to read more. (I'm reading it in between some other books, so it's taking longer than I expected.)

(view spoiler)[I did wonder if McCullers was also just getting a handle on Singer's character in the first part as I did notice that she flipped a little bit about what he was doing when he was in the bar witnessing Blount's tantrum. Something subtle, but at first he was drinking coffee, then he was drinking beer, then he was back to drinking coffee - without ever setting an order of a drink into context. Maybe I just missed something, but I wondered if she was initially trying to give him an observer's perspective which he might not be able to do well if he was simply sitting in the bar drinking beer. Or maybe it was simply an editing oversight and I'm reading too much into it :) (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Sam F wrote: "I've just finished reading the first part of the book as well and am loving it. After reading what was posted about McCullers I am amazed at how insightful she is into human behaviour - at such a y..."

In response to Sam F., (view spoiler)[ good catch! I missed that discrepancy, the coffee/beer/coffee editing oversight. Having read further into the book (I've paused at Part 2, Chapter 6), I've noticed that Singer will frequently have a drink with his friends (with those who visit with him to talk, to seek counsel, to "confess their sins"), but McCullers never describes him as becoming drunk or losing control of his emotions and behavior. In fact, his stoicism is so pronounced it's almost fantastical. I've said before that I find him otherworldly, and it's because of this quality. (hide spoiler)].

[[deleted user]]

Steven wrote: "ok MMG, looking forward to that. I'm beginning to believe that the passage speaks (in a sense) as much about Mick as Biff but I'll explain that later (if necessary)..."

Steven, I've read the passage you referred to, the passage from Part 2, Chapter 2, (view spoiler)[ "He [Biff] watched her [Mick] as she stood behind the counter and he was troubled and sad. He wanted to reach out his hand and touch her sunburned, tousled hair -- not as he had ever touched a woman. In him there was an uneasiness, and when he spoke to her his voice had a rough, strange sound."

Here are my thoughts: I can see how this passage might be interpreted, how the reader might think Biff is inappropriately attracted to Mick, and how Biff is repressing himself from acting inappropriately towards Mick. However, that's not how I interpreted the passage. For me, the key words were " -- not as he had ever touched a woman." To me, instead, Biff seems to feel parentally towards Mick. In other ways, I think Biff sees a kindred spirit in Mick (see below).

McCullers leads the reader to believe that Biff and his wife, Alice, have never had children. (Perhaps they did, but the child died? At this point in the story, the reader doesn't know.) Without children of his own to dote on, Biff, in his own way, seems to care for the neighborhood children, including his niece, Baby Wilson. He gives them discounts on candy and soft drinks, he lets them hang out in his store/café, and he watches out for them. The sudden death of Biff's wife has left him without any real family, except his self-absorbed and self-important sister-in-law, Lucile Wilson, and her daugher, Baby. The café's customers, and the neighborhood children, seem to be Biff's substitute for a family. He seems to have a special affinity for Mick and her siblings (Does he see himself in Mick?), so I read Biff's desire to tousle Mick's hair as a very innocent desire for human "familial" touch in the sorrowful aftermath of Alice's death. Perhaps he looks at Mick and sees himself in his youth, sees himself before the sorrows of the world really started to affect him? I'm not sure. However, I didn't read anything sexually inappropriate into his desire to tousle Mick's hair, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting it. However, having read further into the book, all of Biff's feelings towards Mick seems to be sympathetic and parental, at least in my interpretation.

In the same chapter, McCullers alludes to one other aspect of Biff's sympathy towards Mick, although McCullers only barely hints at it. Mick seems uncomfortable conforming to the gender roles and expectations of her time. It's hinted that Biff secretly harbors similar thoughts and feelings, but considers his feelings inappropriate, perhaps shameful. I'm referring to this passage:

"She was at the age when she looked as much like an overgrown boy as a girl. And on that subject why was it that the smartest people mostly missed that point? By nature all people are of both sexes. So that marriage and the bed is not all by any means. The proof? Real youth and old age. Because often old men's voices grow high and reedy and they take on a mincing walk. And old women sometimes grow fat and their voices get rough and deep and they grow dark little mustaches. And he [Biff] even proved it himself -- the part of him that sometimes almost wished he was a mother and that Mick and Baby were his kids. Abruptly Biff turned from the cash register."

When Biff abruptly turns away, McCullers seems to suggest that Biff is abruptly turning away from his own thoughts, because he thinks it's inappropriate to ponder such things, to feel such things. I felt so much sadness and sympathy for Biff's character at that point. The social norms of the time and place in which he lived would have created an unsafe environment for him to share his thoughts and feelings with many others, much less to act on them, to step outside of the gender boundaries of the time. Biff's situation was yet another sad layer to this story of isolation.

How do my ideas compare to your own thoughts about their relationship? (hide spoiler)]

I look forward to your thoughts, Steven, and to those of everyone else. McCullers was such an incredible writer. I'm really loving this book!

[Steven]

Ok semi-idle curiosity for a sunday evening...but, what I'm still wondering from part one chapter 2 (view spoiler)[ Alice in preparing her sunday school message reads out loud a Bible passage which finishes with her text "All men seek for Thee" I wonder if anyone can see a reason why this particular passage was chosen and what its signification is to this book? (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Steven wrote: "Ok semi-idle curiosity for a sunday evening...but, what I'm still wondering from part one chapter 2 [spoilers removed]"

An interesting passage to point out, Steven. (view spoiler)[I think it is particularly intriguing that the verse is about seeking and not about finding, which fits this text about the thread of loneliness connecting all of these characters.

And I kept the other passage you highlighted in mind when Biff was touching Baby's hair in Part 2 Chapter 2, but it seems very gentle and pure and I agree with MMG's analysis and it appears to be driven by a fatherly (or, in light of the other passage MMG points out, motherly?) feeling.

I thought that part about men growing more like women and women like men also fit the lonely theme somehow, perhaps the loneliness of age and the things that are lost or changed. Also possibly how we are all more alike than we realize? (hide spoiler)]

I'm really loving this book too!

[Steven]

Firstly to MMG: (and of course anybody else): (view spoiler)[ Thank you MMG for your thoughts, I asked about this passage as I was aware that my interpretation of it could have been too subjective. I hope it's not pedantic to point out that the chapter 2 passage comes just before Alice's death and therefore Biff had these thoughts even before her death.
Your interpretation of the passage does seem borne out by the other portions that you quoted. Biff does care for the neighborhood children. I have never had the desire to have children and so I wouldn't have considered this (Biff's “paternal”/”maternal” desire) as readily as an explanation, yet it does indeed seem to be plausible, perhaps even perfectly natural. Though we perhaps still have to explain what is meant by the words: “troubled” and “uneasiness” ?
I didn't attribute anything inappropriate to Biff either. I felt that he was rather fascinated by a beauty that he saw in Mick, this fascination being without sexual feelings somewhat in the way that we may be transported by sunsets, solar eclipses or the colour of leaves etc (blend in a touch of the feeling one might have on seeing a magical fairy too?!)...I felt that this was a new feeling for Biff. I read the “He wanted to reach...” in a purely figurative sense.
The other passage you quoted (the “gender roles” one), was a weird passage to me, upon reading that passage I literally said to myself: “this is such an outlier of thought that I wont be able to enter into this” and renounced understanding it. I think the passage is so much Carson's own thoughts and interpretations, perhaps those of another time?, that I don't have a key to enter into its meaning. (hide spoiler)]

[Steven]

Secondly, concerning the Bible passage: (view spoiler)[ I'm still not sure how I feel about it and am waiting till the end of the book. Thank you Kathleen for your thoughts on the subject.
I would like to mention two things in the "Bible text" passage the first of which may be missed? Missed because the passage has many details and a rather "silky" (Alice's voice), smooth transition. Alice begins reading Mark 1:16-18... then as Biff washes himself the next portion we become aware of is Mark 1:35-37. So we have missed a fair portion of the Bible text. If McCullers just wanted to arrive at "Alice's" text: "All men seek for Thee." then she wasn't at all obliged to pass by Mark 1:16-18 which makes me wonder why she chose too?
After this comes a beautiful passage for me: "Biff let the words revolve again gently inside him. He tried to separate the actual words from the sound of Alice’s voice as she had spoken them. He wanted to remember the passage as his mother used to read it when he was a boy. With nostalgia he glanced down at the wedding ring on his fifth finger that had once been hers." (hide spoiler)]

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

June is half over -- time for me to read this one! I hope I can catch up to the conversation.

[Loretta]

Kathy wrote: "June is half over -- time for me to read this one! I hope I can catch up to the conversation."

It flows quite nicely Kathy so I'm sure you'll be able to catch up with the conversations! :)

[[deleted user]]

In response to Steven and Kathleen (and anyone else who's been following the conversation), (view spoiler)[ I was reading Part 2, Chapter 2 (the part about Biff wanting to touch Mick's hair followed by the part about Alice's sickness and death) as a scene followed by a flashback. So, that's in part why I thought Biff's desire to touch Mick's hair stemmed from Biff's longing for the children he would never have with Alice. Did anyone else read it the way I read it? I read the section again, and the chronology still seem ambiguous to me. Either way, I enjoyed both of your insights into Biff's and Mick's friendship/relationship. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Steven wrote: "Secondly, concerning the Bible passage..."

As regards the Bible passage in Part 1, Chapter 2, (view spoiler)[the passage refers to Jesus instructing his disciples to be "fishers among men," to lure and catch (find) fish (followers) for Christ. First, we find Biff tuning out the words, and focusing primarily on the tone of Alice's voice. (Symbolically, he's tuning out God's word.) Secondly, we learn, "He [Biff] wondered again how she [Biff's mother] would have felt about his giving up church and religion." So, McCullers seems to be saying that Biff's no longer religious, no longer a churchgoer. When Alice reads the words "All men seek for thee" McCullers seems to be using those words for ironic effect, because, for reasons unknown, Biff once sought for God/Christ, but seeks no longer. So, perhaps McCullers is using this Bible verse to imply and illustrate an underlying ideological rift in Biff's and Alice's marriage? Alice is still religious, but Biff is either a questioning agnostic or an atheist? I could be wrong, but those are my ideas and thoughts. That's my best guess.

I found it ironic that Alice was preparing a Sunday School lesson about finding followers for Christ (himself known for instructing his followers to feed the poor and heal the sick), only a short while after she (Alice) had admonished Biff for allowing Blount (a homeless alcoholic) to loiter in their café for several days, and after she had chastised Biff for providing Blount with several free meals. Rather than extend charity to Blount, Alice wanted Biff to send Blount on his way. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

On another note, as I've been reading The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, I've been intrigued about the many things it implies or says about gender identity. I found a theoretical text about McCullers' handling of gender in her writing, and thought I'd share it here, in case others of you might be interested: Strange Bodies: Gender and Identity in the Novels of Carson McCullers. It looks like a fascinating book.

[Kathleen]

MMG wrote: "On another note, as I've been reading The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, I've been intrigued about the many things it implies or says about gender identity. I found a theoretical text about McCullers' h..."

Wow! "...the idea of a provocative, dynamic form of the grotesque that challenges traditional categories of normal and abnormal." Yes, definitely fascinating.

This makes sense because there seems to be a strong impulse to push against norms that takes precedence even over what she may be saying about gender identity specifically.

Love it--thank you MMG!

[Kathleen]

MMG wrote: "In response to Steven and Kathleen (and anyone else who's been following the conversation), [spoilers removed]"

Yes, MMG, (view spoiler)[maybe you're right about the scene followed by a flashback. That part definitely tripped me up. It's October and he's musing about Mick and Alice is ill, and that moves right into telling of her death on October 8 as if it was part of that same musing. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

MMG wrote: "Steven wrote: "Secondly, concerning the Bible passage..."

As regards the Bible passage in Part 1, Chapter 2, the passage refers to Jesus instructing his disciples to be "fishers among men," to lur..."

I think you're right, MMG, and what a good point about (view spoiler)[ that hypocrisy! It's interesting that there are the lonely ones, the seekers who seek others out, and then there is Alice who is saying all men seek for Thee (not each other, I guess).

Also, I wonder if the fact Biff's favorite expletive is Motherogod has anything to do with his feelings about motherhood? (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Kathleen wrote: "Yes, MMG, maybe you're right about the scene..."

About Part 2, Chapter 2, about Biff's and Mick's relationship, (view spoiler)[, yes the chronology was confusing. The whole novel has a dreamlike, somewhat unreal quality to it, and the ambiguous chronology seems to heighten that feeling (for me, at least). The novel has an odd "Twin Peaks" sort of feel to it. Likewise, the scene Sam F. pointed out, the one where Singer's drinking a beer, then coffee, then a beer, all in the same scene. I find interesting these little unclear or inconsistent details that trifle with the reader's ability to keep their grip on the "reality" of the novel." (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Kathleen wrote: "Also, I wonder if the fact Biff's favorite expletive is..."

Wow, Kathleen! What a fantastic point about (view spoiler)[ Biff's favorite expletive being Motherogod, and about it having to do, perhaps, with his feelings about motherhood! Biff seems to recall his mother fondly, yet I wonder that there wasn't also some tension in their relationship, some unresolved conflict? Religious differences, perhaps? Or something else?

Talking about Biff's potential issues with his own mother also makes me look anew at the passage about Biff's desire to "mother" Mick and Baby. Does Biff fantasize he could be a more caring parent to Mick and Baby than their own mothers are? If that's what McCullers is trying to get across, then what is she saying about Mick's and Baby's mothers?

As McCullers depicts her, Lucile (Baby's mother) is not a very likeable character. She has a pretty bad case of "Stage Mother-itis," and seems somewhat obsessive about Baby's becoming a "star." Is she using Baby, hoping she'll become rich off of Baby's stardom, or perhaps living through Baby, hoping Baby will become the "star" that Lucile never was? As for Mick's mother, she seems virtually absent from the story, and I wonder what that says about McCullers' own view of mothers and motherhood. Mick's father seems almost a saint in Mick's eyes, but where's her mother? Portia seems to fill the role of "mother" to Mick than her own biological mother.

Thanks for bringing up the point about "Motherogod" and mothers, Kathleen! You've give me much to think about as I read further into the novel. I feel like I want to go back and re-read a few passages, too. (hide spoiler)]

[Sam F]

MMG wrote: "In response to Steven and Kathleen (and anyone else who's been following the conversation), [spoilers removed]"

MMG, I read the passage about Biff & Mick in the same way. (view spoiler)[ It was interesting that Biff seemed to have a longing for children, but in particular, Mick as opposed to any of the other neighbourhood children or the siblings Mick carts around. But Mick has a hatred/revulsion of Biff, which to me suggests she sensed something uncomfortable around him. She doesn't seem to really articulate specifically where the hatred stems from. But the two are diametrically opposed. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Okay, in Part 2 Chapter 8 we have (view spoiler)[Biff patting Baby "on her little behind," which just must be McCullers pushing against boundaries, even though right after, Baby's mother says "Bartholomew, you'd make a might good mother." (hide spoiler)]

[Steven]

Another strong scene from the book illustrates the dangers of fooling about with Beethoven...part 2 chap 1 (view spoiler)[ So, Mick got floored by Beethoven : "The radio and the lights in the house were turned off. The night was very dark. Suddenly Mick began hitting her thigh with her fists. She pounded the same muscle with all her strength until the tears came down her face. But she could not feel this hard enough. The rocks under the bush were sharp.

She grabbed a handful of them and began scraping them up and down on the same spot until her hand was bloody. Then she fell back to the ground and lay looking up at the night.

With the fiery hurt in her leg she felt better. She was limp on the wet grass, and after a while her breath came slow and easy again."

I wondered if anyone felt like commenting on this passage? I can't relate so well to what she goes through here, I mean to a certain degree yes (screaming at a tv in a trance like state due to a sports result in my youth comes to mind, though I realise that this is different), but not the rocks and all. (hide spoiler)]

[Steven]

Fwiw, I don't see the slightest problem with bottom patting (hopefully not the most surreal contribution to a book discussion).

Good point Sam F: whatever Biff might be playing at in his head the fact that it makes Mick uncomfortable isn't a good sign.

MMG, it made me smile what you said about the irony...but, then again, who isn't exposed to their own hypocrisy at times? :)

[Sam F]

Kathleen wrote: "Okay, in Part 2 Chapter 8 we have [spoilers removed]"

Kathleen, I thought the part where (view spoiler)[Baby's mother says "Bartholomew, you'd make a might good mother." reflected McCullers pushing identity boundaries again. Later, McCullers suggests further that Biff has some interests and behaviours that are often considered more traditionally feminine as shown when he redecorates his living space and chooses alternative items to wear. I felt that this line was foreshadowing his willingness to be more of himself. (hide spoiler)]

[Nathan]

I finished this yesterday and thought it was excellent. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments. You all are an insightful group of readers!

Steven wrote: "Another strong scene from the book illustrates the dangers of fooling about with Beethoven...part 2 chap 1 ..."

(view spoiler)[This was right after the party didn't go as she imagined, right? I took it to be a response to her feeling of isolation. A longing to be connected passionately with something both in mind and body. She wants to feel as intense a physical sensation as she feels the music emotionally. (hide spoiler)]

[Steven]

I liked your point about the redecorating Sam!

Nathan, I like your interpretation, it did happen just after the party as you say, I hadn't thought of how Mick would have felt leading upto this moment! (doubtless, an illustration of how I may tend to compartmentalise others behaviour?) I had just assumed that this meeting with Beethoven had shorted some circuit somewhere.

I'm sure you all know this but (this is my first group read), if we do engage with others not only does the book come to life more, but also we learn something more about ourselves. (Hope you stick around Nathan I have more questions) :)

[[deleted user]]

My comments are about the section through Part 2, Chapter 10. I thought the point Sam F. made about (view spoiler)[ Biff's redecorating was spot on, too. Several of Biff's tastes and behaviors would have definitely been considered "feminine" at the time the book was written. His desire to redecorate, his love of soft materials and beautiful fabrics, his attention to Baby's clothes, his desire to adopt children that he would dress in pink crêpe de Chine and red velvet, and his wearing of Alice's perfume after her death, all seems to suggest he enjoys expressing himself in "feminine" ways. I noticed that McCullers even emphasized that Biff sat with his legs crossed one over the other, a behavior that would likely have been considered effeminate during the time period.

After reading this section and learning more about Biff, I began to see Biff's interest in Mick in a new light. Rather than wanting to be parent to a child, I think Biff is hopeful Mick is his kindred spirit. I think Biff sees Mick as someone who stands outside of gender boundaries as he does, and he feels a connection with her because of it. I think his desire to watch and and follow her is because he's looking for signs and evidence that a connection of this type truly exists between them. (At first, his following her made me worried and uncomfortable, but the more I read, I realized there seemed to be nothing sexual or sinister about it.) Simultaneously, I can understand why Mick doesn't enjoy Biff's extra focus on her. For an adolescent dealing with gender identity issues, I can imagine she might be having difficulty admitting certain thoughts and feelings to herself, much less wanting to discuss them with an adult shopkeeper with whom she's only mildly acquainted. As Biff seems to become more comfortable with his "difference" after Alice's death, simultaneously, Mick seems to either be succumbing to pressure to conform, or potentially trying to "hide" herself by conforming in different ways, such as wearing skirts and giving up wrestling with Harry.

Although I feel for every character in the book, because they're all isolated and confined by society, I cried when I read about Willie's torture in prison, and Doctor Copeland's subsequent mental breakdown and incarceration. In the kitchen the following morning, Mick offered her sympathies in her own awkward way, yet still disrespectfully referred to Doctor Copeland by his given name, "Benedict," because he's a black man. If he were a white man, she would have called him "Doctor Copeland." That was so poignant to me, that during his most grief-stricken moment, he had to endure being addressed in that disrespectful way by a 12-year-old, it was the final insult on top of a mountain of insults and injustices he had suffered. McCullers' writing was exceptional in highlighting the social indignities he had to endure on every level. The indifference of Mick's parents towards Portia and Doctor Copeland during that scene was also devastating. It was a powerful yet difficult chapter to read. (hide spoiler)]

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

I've been keeping up with the discussions, although I am not quite finished. And sorry to say, but I am not loving this book. It is slow & strange for me. I get that it is a character rather than plot driven book, but I don't really care about the characters. I find myself forcing to finish this one.

[Sam F]

MMG wrote: "My comments are about the section through Part 2, Chapter 10. I thought the point Sam F. made about Biff's redecorating was spot on, too. Several of Biff's tastes and behaviors would have definite..."

I agree with MMG - (view spoiler)[by the time I finished the book, I felt that Biff's connection with Mick was also one of a hopeful kindred spirit, but Mick struggles so much with identity throughout the book, it just could never be. I felt like Mick might have represented McCullers the most, though I don't know enough about her to really justify that statement. I agree with you as well MMG, that the issues of race and disrespect were so poignant, it was heartbreaking. I could feel the rage Dr. Copeland exuded during that chapter. (hide spoiler)]

I felt the opposite, Kathy, and just loved the characters though their loneliness / sadness was difficult to process at times. I am now keen to read something else of McCullers to see how she progressed as a writer. I wonder how the themes of identity and race might have been examined in her later writing as she aged and experienced the changes in the world around her at the time.

[Desertorum]

I´m with you Kathy! I was not in love with this, though I think it was a good one (3.5 stars) but I had hard time picking it up. I liked the characters but I wished a little more dynamic movement in it. Now it felt like one part in somebody´s diary without that much of a plot. But I agree that she is very insightful and that made it a good one.

About Singer: (view spoiler)[ I didn´t saw him very smart or anything and it was also said there that he didn´t understand all that the people were saying to him. It just felt that way because people could interpret him in anyway they wanted. And I think that is a good point. People want to be listened and understood, or felt like they do. I was also wondering why did he like Antonapoulos so much. For me Antonapulos seemed a little mean person. (hide spoiler)]

About Biff/Mick: (view spoiler)[ At first I think he had a crush on her but when I finished the book, I thought it was more like the want of children. He even got little womanish in the end with the jewellery and perfume. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Desertorum wrote: "About Singer:..."

I agree with you, Desertorum, about Singer's (view spoiler)[ relationship with Antonapoulos -- it baffled me. Antonapoulos seemed like the combination of a spoiled manchild and a vulgar brute, while Singer was so placid and refined. The only reason I could find for Singer's attraction to Antonapoulos was that they were both deaf and mute, and that this common experience seemed to foster in them a mutual understanding and bond. Some companionship is better than no companionship, perhaps. Still, had Singer met someone another deaf person with whom he had more interests in common, I can't imagine but that he would have been immensely happier. It saddened me to learn that Singer had always hoped to go to the deaf persons' convention, but that he had never attended, and that he couldn't imagine attending it without Antonapoulos. Once Antonapoulos was incarcerated in the asylum, Singer decided he would never attend on his own. I wanted so badly for him to go, and to meet new people!

That said, Singer did strike me as intelligent and articulate when given the chance to speak, himself, in written words. Because his visitors could talk without expected interruption, it's almost as though they never let him speak (write) at all. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

MMG wrote: "Desertorum wrote: "About Singer:..."

I agree with you, Desertorum, about Singer's .."

Part Two Chapter 7 is really interesting about Singer and Antonapoulos. (view spoiler)[I think Singer thinks about him the way the others think about Singer. "This was the friend to whom he told all that was in his heart." Just like the others with Singer, it was more about them than about him. With Antonapoulos, it was that he could talk to him--share all of his thoughts.

I know what you mean about wishing he could have met new people he could talk to! I wonder if it wasn't just that they wouldn't let him speak (write), but that he didn't want to--that way of communicating wasn't the same for him. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Steven wrote: "Another strong scene from the book illustrates the dangers of fooling about with Beethoven...part 2 chap 1 So, Mick got floored by Beethoven : "The radio and the lights in the house were turned of..."

I like Nathan's point about (view spoiler)[Mick wanting to feel the physical intensity like the emotional intensity here. I also wonder if the scraping the rocks on her hands might be because she was overwhelmed by the feeling she had, and acted in a similar way to depressed people who sometimes cut themselves. The feeling/emotion is so strong, unbearable, and by hurting themselves, they distract themselves from that too intense feeling because it is replaced with another feeling: physical pain. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Kathleen wrote: "Part Two Chapter 7 is really interesting about Singer and Antonapoulos. I think Singer thinks abo..."

Kathleen, I had the same thoughts as you about Singer and Antonapoulos, that it was more about Singer's need to be heard than about what Antonapoulos could give to him. Yet, I really, really, wanted Singer to find someone who could give more to him, who could understand him better.

[Sam F]

I think one thing to remember about Singer with Antonapoulos, is that Anatonapoulos was the only one Singer knew for the longest time who could 'read' Singer's hands. I think this physical way of communicating allowed Singer to truly be free to communicate and be himself - without having to explain himself or write it down. I liken it to the feeling of being with people you know versus surrounded by people you've just met. There is a different way of knowing that is easier and freer just because of a past history. As a result, I think Singer really loved Anatonapoulos, for what he saw as genuine communication. Over time this proved difficult as Anatonapoulos struggled with mental illness and couldn't reciprocate.

(view spoiler)[ Before the end, Singer did eventually meet with others who could communicate with their hands, but still the connection was weak and he left. This meeting was dampened by the death of Anatonapoulos and Singer couldn't connect emotionally. This might suggest that Singer longed for more than a similar community, but rather that shared past. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Sam F wrote: "I think one thing to remember about Singer with Antonapoulos, is that Anatonapoulos was the only one Singer knew for the longest time who could 'read' Singer's hands. I think this physical way of c..."

That's an excellent point, Sam F., about Antonapoulos being the only one able to understand sign language, and about that having so much to do with their connection, because it allows Singer to speak in his "mother tongue," so to speak. I liked what you said about it being very much like being around those you know versus those whom you've just met. That really resonates with me. And, perhaps also like having moved far from your home, and then meeting someone from your native region, country, etc., and feeling something of a kinship even if you have little in common, otherwise. I know I've experienced that feeling several times in life.

There's so much in this book, it's so rich.

[Kathleen]

Yes--excellent points about Singer being the most comfortable, the most "at home" with sign language.

And back to Sam F's great comment about Biff's redecorating etc (view spoiler)[ being foreshadowing of being more of himself. Wow! I think you hit it there. I loved watching him slowly become more of himself—his perfume and his pinkie ring and his flower arranging.

Also, I love MMG's thought about his attraction to Mick who also stands outside of gender norms. There is something at the end that emphasizes this too! (hide spoiler)]

Such a rich book, I agree. I've just finished, but everything is still sinking in. And like Steven said above, this discussion does bring the book to life even more!

[Steven]

As I'm English I wondered about the validity of this assertion by Jake part 2 chapter 13 (view spoiler)[

Jake interrupted him savagely. ‘Who owns the South? Corporations in the North own three fourths of all the South. They say the old cow grazes all over--in the south, the west, the north, and the east. But she’s milked in just one place. Her old teats swing over just one spot when she’s full. She grazes everywhere and is milked in New York. Take our cotton mills, our pulp mills, our harness factories, our mattress factories. The North owns them.
Is this true in your opinion? And if so, is this more or less so nowadays? (hide spoiler)]

[Steven]

My favourite line went to my favourite character (view spoiler)[ Mick Kelly: “But maybe it would be true about the piano and turn out O.K. Maybe she would get a chance soon. Else what the hell good had it all been--the way she felt about music and the plans she had made in the inside room? It had to be some good if anything made sense. And it was too and it was too and it was too and it was too. It was some good."
John Singer has “eliminated his own map”. The last we see of Dr Copeland he is broken. Biff is kind of like biffing it away, getting through one more late night and Jake Blount is off to find another town to screw up in...and through all that I hear Mick (she didn't shout but I shall)

AND IT WAS TOO AND IT WAS TOO AND IT WAS TOO AND IT WAS TOO. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

I loved that line too, Steven!

And about Jake, (view spoiler)[It would be interesting to hear from someone more knowledgeable about this, but it struck me as a very current frustration in the US. I can see the regional concern at the time—so many southern workers being controlled by companies based in the north, and the money they work to generate being used to improve conditions somewhere else while they languish away in poverty.

It seems to me that with the power of corporations in this country just increasing, and the fact they are now often multi-national, and the recent Citizens United decision that allows corporations to finance elections, we are under corporate control no matter where we live in this country, so I would say this is even more true now. (hide spoiler)]

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Steven wrote: "As I'm English I wondered about the validity of this assertion by Jake part 2 chapter 13 ..."

Fairly true: (view spoiler)[Read the history of the Reconstruction Era in the US. Wikipedia Link. Just a paragraph quote: "Reconstruction was a significant chapter in the history of civil rights in the United States, but most historians consider it a failure because the South became a poverty-stricken backwater attached to agriculture, while white Southerners attempted to re-establish dominance through violence, intimidation and discrimination, forcing freedmen into second class citizenship with limited rights, and excluding them from the political process." (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Steven wrote: "As I'm English I wondered about the validity of this assertion by Jake part 2 chapter 13..."

Yes, Steven, I would agree with Kathleen and Kathy that what Blount says is mostly true, although it's more nuanced than his explanation provides.

But, don't take my word for it, rather, here are a few quotes from a book I plan on reading now that I've finished the McCullers novel. It was a finalist for both the National Book Award (USA) and the Pulitzer in History in 1992, and was published by Oxford Univ. Press. Hopefully, it's still considered a respected source. Having browsed through it, I've been impressed so far.

From The Promise of the New South: Life After Reconstruction, Chapter 5: Mill and Mine:

"Southern manufacturing did not fit what we recognize as the general pattern of industrial development that transformed other Western countries in the nineteenth century. While the cigarette, furniture, and textile industries made impressive strides in the New South, most southern industrial workers labored in forests and mines rather than in factories. Those extractive industries became increasingly dominant throughout the New South era, outstripping the growth of more heavily mechanized enterprises. Southern industry created relatively few salaries clerks and other officials and failed to fuel the widespread economic development of the sort experienced in the Midwest at the same time.

Given these very real limitations, many contemporaries and subsequent scholars have seen the Southern economy as essential 'colonial,' producing new products for distant markets where the profitable finishing and use of the products took place. Some have ascribed the South's colonial position to the actions of the federal government, to the unfair policies of major corporations, to the selling-out of the region by its own political and business leaders, to the machinations of Northern capitalists, to the resistance of powerful planters."

One of the most interesting chapters I've browsed through looks at the labor issue, including labor reformers (like Blount). It looks like it will be an interesting book.

[[deleted user]]

I've finished the book, and for me, the ending was (view spoiler)[heartbreaking. Singer's suicide was devastating. It was painful to read about the cold and indifferent manner in which he's told of Antonapoulos' death, and then about his spiral downward into despair. Singer had listened to everyone else's pain, but couldn't share his with any of them. After Singer died, it seemed that Biff, Doctor Copeland, Blount, and Mick were all reborn in a sense, but not in a good way. I didn't get the sense that any one of them were hopeful about the new life ahead of them. Instead, they each seemed to be just coming to terms with the life they'd neither hoped for nor expected, and instead, were each being forced by circumstances to resolve themselves to their new conditions.

I found this a very powerful novel, and will continue to ponder it for some time. (hide spoiler)]

I've really enjoyed the discussion here. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Even though I've finished the novel, I'll continue to stick around to see what additional discussions might arise.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Please Continue this discussion at The Heart is a Lonely Hunter threads here:

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