Lady Midnight
discussion
Kieran and Mark: Do you ship them?
Yeah, but that sounds more like Mark owes him instead of a solid reason. I, for one, couldn't be with the person that betrayed me due to jealousy, and, because of those reckless actions, caused my brother and his parabatai to be whipped. I just wouldn't be able to get over it. Maybe the betrayal, but not the whippings.
The thing is that they love each other. There is a quote in this book that I saw a few times that said something like it isn't a single action that makes who you are. Everyone makes good and bad choices, and Kieran has never known better. Mark is all that he has. Their relationship is beautiful in ways that his and Cristina's is not. Mark was still clutching his neck even after he had given his necklace away. I know that it will probably be Mark and Cristina in the end, but I will always think that it is Mark and Kieran that belong together.
Yes, I'm definitely shipping Kieran and Mark! I really hope Mark won't end up with someone else, haha, and I prefer Cristina to be with Diego. Kieran and Mark are so romantic; that backstory about how they became lovers just killed me. As well, I love the species combination: faerie prince and a half faerie, half shadowhunter boy. This seems to be the first time I've ever seen (I read all TMI books, but not TID yet) an important, fully faerie character who actually seems to be benevolent.I agree with Feyde that Kieran could be selfish and not understanding, and indeed we have to keep in mind that he was a faerie prince, used to living in privilege. Even when he was exiled to the Hunt, he got some special treatment. So he never really learned to be modest. Still, he can acquire this virtue in the future!
Also, I'm kind of more sympathetic towards Kieran than towards Mark, because the latter did sort of betray Kieran first, as Mark was...somewhat emotionally unfaithful to him. I can empathize with that jealousy and desire to take revenge, though of course I don't think he should have reported what Mark said to Gwyn and Iarlath. But I would rather say that Kieran is naive rather than "bad" (as some may say he is); he never expected that Iarlath would want to whip Mark. Although I was shocked when Kieran said: yeah, since Julian wants to take Mark's place, let him take it; at the same time, Kieran did want to take the whipping for Mark. Also, I think he was very desperate to save Mark from the punishment, so that's why he latched onto the solution of having Julian whipped instead. Of course, I don't think latching onto Julian's proposal is right, but first of all, as I said, Kieran was desperate; second of all, he seems to not have learned how to care about anyone other than Mark and himself so far, and he doesn't understand family love, due to his own terrible family situation. :( Even Mark sympathizes with Kieran with regards to how the latter's family treats him.
Kieran also did help Taavy in the end, and without him and his faerie steed, Malcolm might really have killed one of the Blackthorns, so I would say this action redeemed Kieran, at least to some extent. Yes, Kieran does remind Julian that without his help, they might not have defeated Malcolm, which may be seen as petty for Kieran to say; but I think Kieran was just understandably defending himself, especially as it seems that no one was on his side and no one really cared about him.
And yes, thank you Emily for pointing out that quote that no one is just one thing, no one is defined by just a single action or choice. So Kieran made a big mistake, but he is trying to make amends, and he is learning more about relationships.
Yes, I know, I'm such a Kieran fan--he's my favorite character, haha. Another thing I would like to point out about Kieran, which is not strictly related to this discussion topic, is that despite his naivety in general, he does seem to be quite perceptive at times, or at least, he can have quite unconventional viewpoints. I love the part where he says to Julian: your brother thinks you're very gentle, but I think you're actually ruthless. Later, Emma mentally remarks that Julian is ironically more ruthless than her.
More on Kieran's occasional perceptiveness, he, I believe, was the first person who uttered the wise insight that nobody is just one thing, nobody's whole character is defined by a single action that they took. I honestly would not have expected a privileged faerie prince to understand something as deep as that, though maybe what he unintentionally did to Mark, Julian, and Emma (with the whipping) might have made him realize this philosophy.
Plus, apart from maybe Gwyn, Kieran seemed to be the only one who accepted Mark despite his being half shadowhunter. Of course, we could argue that Kieran just fancies blond people (or blond boys specifically? I don't know if he also likes girls, lol); and that Kieran just sympathizes with Mark because Kieran was an outcast as well. Still, if he were a completely arrogant prince, he would probably not want to associate with someone who is seen as socially inferior by the other faeries, especially as many of the Wild Hunt faeries were already mocking and tormenting Kieran.
One last thing: As noted in an above comment, Kieran and Mark do love each other. Though Cristina claims once that Mark only feels debt, not love, towards Kieran, from how much longing, desire, love, and ecstasy mixed with pain (as described in the book) Mark feels when he looks at or kisses Kieran, I would say that Mark does love him. It wasn't as if Mark was just obliging Kieran when he became the faerie prince's lover either. Mark was already quite fascinated by Kieran from the start, and after they became friends and lovers, there was a passage saying that Mark didn't want to be with anyone but Kieran, he thought about his family much less, and Mark also lives for (looks forward to) the nights when he and Kieran could snuggle together and talk. For anyone who wants to say that this is just blind infatuation or a mere fever, their relationship is in fact more substantial than just lust and physical attraction. They do share stories with each other and Kieran shows him lots of interesting things in the faerie world, and Mark enjoys these adventure times with Kieran. Plus, Kieran is probably the only faerie who is perfectly happy for Mark to embrace his shadowhunter identity--recall the end of the backstory scene where Kieran invites Mark to declare "I am a shadowhunter" in the narrow space between them. Thus, I argue that Mark feels not just lust, infatuation, attraction, and desire towards Kieran; Mark feels love and attachment towards him too.
As for Kieran's feelings, this may be even easier to see. Remember how sad and sick he looked when he discovered that Iarlath actually wanted to whip Mark? And that Kieran was powerless to stop Iarlath? Even Emma, an outsider, pointed out to Mark, (approximate quote) "If it makes any difference, he does love you, and I don't think he knew what was going to happen or intend for anyone to get hurt." Julian also noted quite understandingly that "You hurt him, so Kieran wanted to hurt you." Not that I endorse such vengeance, but I can understand. It should also be mentioned that though Kieran really wanted Mark to come back to him, he never forced Mark to do so (aside from in the whipping incident.) Kieran was very sad, but he respected Mark's decision to stay and even vowed to fight for Mark's wish to stay with his family with any opposing faeries.
Sorry for such a long comment, haha. I just love this topic too much and yeah, I simply adore Kieran; he's such an interesting and complex character!
Serena wrote: "Yes, I'm definitely shipping Kieran and Mark! I really hope Mark won't end up with someone else, haha, and I prefer Cristina to be with Diego. Kieran and Mark are so romantic; that backstory about ..."Ah! Yes! I loved reading your comment, Serena. I feel to alone in my shipping of Kieran and Mark. Everyone thinks that Kieran is such bad person when he really isn't. Like you pointed out, he has not known the love of a family, and he does not understand the way that Mark loves Julian. Why would he? Why would he care about some stranger taking the place of the person he loves? He did not understand that it would hurt Mark more for Julian to be whipped, because he has never known that kind of love (the love of a brother).
Kieran only knows the love that he has for Mark. When I read the part when Kieran asked if he would ever see him again, and Mark said I don't think so, my heart broke. He did, however, offer a favor to him if he ever needed it. What do you think that means?
There is also the complication of the fact that if he were to be with Kieran, he would have to leave his family. I can't see Cassie doing this. Then again, whenever he thinks of the Hunt, they are mostly good memories. He liked the wildness, but at the same time he "counted the stars and named them after his siblings". So I am always going back and forth. What does he really want? I feel like it is Kieran, I'm just not sure Cassie is going to explore that.
Another thing I don't understand is, why add him if you're just going to use him to rip my heart out? I LOVE Kieran's character, just like you. I felt it in my heart when Mark was so quick to reject him, especially because Kieran did not know any better.
Like in the beginning, with the scenes with Cristina, how she was the first one that was able to talk to him and all, I knew there would be a romance with them. Then there was the whole cutting his hair thing, then he almost kissed her, then all the sudden she walks in on him and Kieran. I love Marks character, and I just did not feel Cristina and Mark's relationship. I was really disappointed to see that that is what Cassie had for Mark. Then she added Kieran and I was so happy Mark was getting a great romance, then I am slammed in the face with rejection. I hate to think that Kieran was just a device she used to add drama to Cristina and Mark. Same with Perfect Diego. I like Cristina and Diego, but I have this gut feeling that he is going to betray her again. Why would she have feelings for Mark if she was really in love with Diego? And vice versa?
I don't know.
Both Cristina and Mark are always clutching the necklaces they are wearing. They are both clinging to what once was. What does this mean? I really just wish that their relationship was plutonic. That would make so much more sense.
I know that Cristina and Mark haven't had a kissing scene, and I know there is one coming, but the ones between Mark and Kieran are so passionate. That is the passion that comes from love. Mark and Cristina don't have that.
Another thing I really hated was that after Mark walked in on Cristina, he closed the door and slumped and said maybe he should have stayed with the hunt. Does that mean he was choosing to stay home just cause of Cristina, and now that he "can't have her" even though we all know he can, he wishes to leave? Thats so messed up and I hate it. That is what made me lose hope.
I swear if Kieran and Mark don't end up together, I will be utterly devastated and totally disappointed in Cassie Clare. The story was great, but this breaks my heart.
You're right, there still are two more books. Im just afraid to let myself hope because I really don't want to be let down. Mark likes Cristina and he totally abandoned Kieran, then now he is doing some thing with Emma that will probably make Cristina jealous. Ugh, I want to run away and hide at the thought.
Yeah I don't think Kieran is a bad person at all! I was also sad when everyone seemed to treat Kieran like a kind of enemy even when he was helping them save Taavy...Well, not an enemy per se, but someone who is an outsider and not to be trusted. I even think that a reason for their negativity towards Kieran, is that he's a faerie, and shadowhunters just don't trust faeries in general. Not that I blame them after what the Seelie Queen did, but there are both good and bad people in every species, right?It's also true, as you said, that Kieran doesn't know better. Somewhere in the book, Cassie mentioned that Kieran, though an immortal faerie, has not lived much longer than Mark, probably not even twenty years. This means that Kieran is basically still a teenager! I can imagine that his knowledge of the world would still be very limited, especially as he has only lived in one species's culture before, I.e. the faerie society. Yet, I believe Kieran, like any other person, can change and gradually learn more from life. He seemed not to object when Mark taught him about family love--Kieran didn't say "Nonsense!" "I don't want to hear about this!" or anything like that. So I believe Kieran is willing to learn.
This is in fact another reason why I love Kieran so much. Unlike the other faerie characters I've seen so far (I've read TMI but not TID yet), Kieran is the only one who seems to show any real complexity and also personal growth (or at least potential growth.)
Actually, I was guessing that Cassandra Clare feels that shadowhunters have slammed the faeries for so long, (though some shadowhunters are more sympathetic), that she wanted to write about a good, lovable, and relatable faerie. I even remember that part where Cristina sees Kieran kissing Mark with such passion, and when Kieran pulls away and she sees his face full of love, longing, and sadness, she is struck by how human he looks! This is cool because the humans (well, shadowhunters) have always treated faeries like an alien species, even more alien than werewolves and vampires, perhaps.
Ahahaha yes, I admit that I'm kind of in love with Kieran myself. XDD
On to other things, another reason why I don't want Mark to be with Cristina is that, no offense to their shippers, they seem to be quite a boring and ordinary couple compared to Kieran and Mark... With Kieran and Mark, there is so much drama, crazy emotional highs and lows, all that struggle between the faerie and shadowhunter culture, how Kieran may have to leave the Hunt to join Mark (or Mark go back to the Hunt) if they want to be together after all, etc. There is SO much to be explored if Mark and Kieran were to be a couple.
Ahh on that scene where Mark says they will probably not see each other again, I remember Kieran saying, "You are all that exists on the earth and under the sky that I do love" and "The stars will die out before I forget you, Mark Blackthorn." If someone else said these lines, they might have sounded cheesy, yet they fit Kieran's character and (faerie) culture so well that I found it very touching.
As for what it means when Mark says Kieran can send for him if he truly needs him for something, to me, this is a sign that they WILL meet again :D Also, the hopeful romantic in me believes this means that Mark secretly wants to see Kieran again, even if he is very mad at the latter. Mark's duty and love towards his family makes him feel the need to not stay involved with Kieran, so he wouldn't say yes to going back to the Hunt. Yet, you can tell that Mark at least still has some feelings towards him.
Recall that part when Mark said he would ride one last time with Kieran on his faerie steed. In Mark's internal monologue, "The sight of Kieran was still enough to make his heart ache", and he goes on to describe Kieran in both a physical and personality way, the way you would describe someone you deeply love and have gotten to really know. Gosh, that paragraph made my heart ache too. :( The part where Mark was reaching for the elf bolt when Emma asked him to be her pretend-lover, also implies to me that Mark still loves Kieran, even though Mark SAID Kieran lost his love when Kieran caused Julian and Emma to be whipped.
Another thing is, I don't blame Kieran that much for "betraying" Mark like that, because in the faerie culture, breaking a promise of love (I.e. emotional fidelity) deserves a very severe punishment; whilst human culture is more forgiving towards emotional unfaithfulness. I'm not exactly sure what Mark was feeling towards Cristina, but with the way he was being kind of emotionally intimate with her, leaning towards her, etc., I can see how it may look like Mark lost interest in Kieran and fell in love with Cristina. Can't blame Kieran for being so mad and desirous of revenge, especially as his faerie culture believes in punishing emotionally unfaithful lovers. That doesn't mean I think Kieran should have informed against Mark like that, but I'm just saying that we should judge Kieran by faerie standards rather than by human standards. I also want to add that Kieran tried to be more lenient towards Mark, saying that as long as Mark doesn't give Cristina his heart, it's okay, Mark can be physically intimate with her if he wants. That may sound shocking to us humans, but in faerie culture, emotional faithfulness is paramount, but physical fidelity is not that important.
Yeah, Mark was so quick to reject Kieran, someone who has loved, protected, and shared everything with him for so long! I just could not believe that Mark would turn so quickly from love to hate. Yes, what Kieran did was terrible, but he really didn't know it would lead to someone getting whipped. You could see that apart from trying to make amends by helping them save Taavy, Kieran tried to make up for it a bit when he picked up Julian, put him in a safe corner, and wrapped him up in Kieran's robe (or cloak?) Emma felt relieved when Kieran did that too, while Mark just wanted Kieran to keep his hands off his family.
I was also shocked when, after all Kieran and Mark experienced together, Mark would actually threaten to chop off Kieran's hand if the latter tries to touch Mark again. Oh my gosh. Your heart really goes out to Kieran as well when Cassie describes him looking at Mark with a "pleading" gaze, "shattered eyes", looking "like he was going to throw up", looking very sick, and that Kieran did offer to take the whipping himself.
As well, I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way, but to me, Kieran and Diego are similar in some ways. Both are super handsome (I think their beauty was mentioned more frequently than any other characters'); and have good or at least non-malicious intentions, but are very naive and make the wrong decisions, leading the person they love to feel betrayed by them. (Well, okay, Kieran did betray Mark, but you get my point.)
And of course, as you pointed out, both Diego and Kieran gave their lovers a kind of souvenir that Cristina and Mark wear on their necks and touch from time to time. But I'm optimistic and don't think that that means Cristina and Mark will get together in the end, haha. I think that this might make them understand each other, as friends, or as something more than friends but not lovers either. But they will still end up with Diego and Kieran respectively, Hahaha. Yet before that can happen, both Kieran and Diego need to learn to be wiser in the world, though they are all still very young...
But yeah, I don't know if Mark can leave his family...Or maybe Kieran can somehow leave the Hunt to join Mark? I don't know...I sure do hope Kieran is not a mere device to dramatize the romance between Mark and Cristina!
As to why Cristina would have feelings for Mark, it could be because she made herself give up Diego, which opened up her heart for someone else (Mark). Or it might be that realistic case where feelings are not that clear-cut...Even Mark said that his feelings towards Cristina were muddled up. It may not be a simple yes or no answer to whether Cristina and Mark are in love with each other. Maybe they have platonic crushes on one another---since platonic crushes (squishes) do happen in real life. But I admit that Cassie doesn't seem like the type of writer who would write about squishes, lol. Yet you never know! She might surprise us.
Oh yes, Kieran and Mark's kisses are so passionate, and no matter what Mark feels for Cristina, Mark does seem to feel a much more intense desire for Kieran than for Cristina.
On how Mark thought he should have stayed with the hunt when he saw Cristina with Diego, I think this was due to Mark's immaturity and confusion about his feelings. (Yes, I'm sticking to my optimistic view, hahaha.)
Oh btw about the quote where Mark seemed to say: "I don't need Kieran to survive anymore, so I can ditch him", I reread that passage and I apologize, maybe he didn't mean that. Rather, he seemed to say: "I was so desperately clinging to Kieran, but now I realize that I don't need him to survive anymore. Whether I love and want Kieran is another question. But anyway, I'm a shadowhunter, so I can rely on myself to survive!" So I think this suggests that Mark is being stubborn and trying to detach from Kieran because he's so angry, but Mark reluctantly admits, at least for a second, that he still loves and longs for Kieran.
Before going on their "last" faerie steed ride together, Mark also wished he could rest his head on Kieran's shoulder, entwine their fingers, and feel that with Kieran he was safe, with Kieran there was someone who would never leave him. Yes, Mark later dismisses those feelings by thinking "but there were worse things than being left"; however, that Mark still had those thoughts and feelings at all, wanting to rely on Kieran emotionally and physically, indicates to me that his feelings are still there.
Hahaha I know, I'm way too obsessed with this couple that I analyze way too much. XDD
Quite simply, I want them together... I think that they have a history that no one else would be able to understand. I think that Mark's crush on Cristina will dissolve due to Diego's presence... Mark's heart was quite clearly broken the minute Julian and Emma were hurt because of his actions.
That's a good way to put it. :) Yes, Kieran and Mark had a long and interesting, beautiful history, while Mark and Cristina barely know each other. Yeah I hope Diego's presence will sufficiently discourage Mark and make him lose interest too! And I thought Mark chose to stay for his siblings, not for Cristina, right? D: So I don't know what that meant when he thought he should have stayed with the Hunt when he saw Cristina with Diego. Maybe it was just a thought that he wasn't serious about?
Yeah I've thought about that too. I think deep down he stayed for his siblings, and when Ty approached him about taking over Julian's 'Parent' status that he was just overwhelmed from the thought of it, then seeing Cristina with Diego just spurred on more of those overwhelming feelings, not that he really should have stayed with the Hunt?
I don't know. I don't think Cassandra would have included that thought if it didn't mean anything. There are definitely hints on both sides. One thing that really worries me is that Diego and her made up too fast. It was too easy. This leads me to believe that it won't last...what Cassandra Clare relationship has ever been easy? None. I have a feeling Diego will betray her or she will just pick Mark. I really hope not though. Oh! One thing I wanted to bring up. I was on Cassandras website, and there is this quote from Jodi something "Nyt bestseller" that says "Dive into Lady Midnight and you are surrounded by characters that keep you up at night, a tangle of mystery, and an unrequited love story that will break your heart."
Do you think this person is talking about Mark and Kieran when she says unrequited love story? If so, I think that gives us hope if Cassandra references it on her website. But it could maybe be Julian and Emma, even though it is requited.. Deep down. Try to give your unbiased opinion. You guys are so optimistic, but I'm so scared to be!! I don't want to be let down..it will literally destroy me!
Yeah, I doubt the unrequited love story she was referring to was Mark and Kieran, since they're not the main focus of the book, and also the unrequited-ness of it is so complex I don't think it would be teased so blatantly. Plus, it's not really unrequited at all. Maybe it was Emma and Julian that she was referring to, since they're the main romance. I know Emma and Julian don't really have an unrequited love either, but it kinda appears that way and it would be a good teaser.Could anyone else just not get into this Diego-Cristina thing? I feel like we didn't get to know Diego very well at all, so I don't really like him, and I didn't really like his relationship with Cristina. The whole deep dark secret and what happened after it seemed too simple and kinda anticlimactic. Anyone else feel the same or differently?
I agree that Diego and Cristina made up way to quick. As you said, we don't know much about Diego, but I think that he's feelings for Cristina aren't fake, but I dunno how genuine he is either. I think the unrequited love could very well be Mark and Cristina, because Cristina was bought into the book before Julian was (he was visiting his Aunt), so she's a pretty big presence in the book, Emma relies on her a lot and so I think that she's not THE main character(s) but still a main character either way.
I don't think it means Emma and Julian, cause it was obvious to us as the audience from the start that they both love each other very much and not in the Parabatai way that they should either.
I think Diego's story is anticlimatic, i'd like to hear more about his brother, there seems to be more about him and his story.
I don't know that it would be Mark and Cristina because Cassie makes it clear that they like each other. Its just a misunderstanding. (Them walking in on each other kissing their respective past lovers). The only one that is a real unrequited love story is Kieran and Mark. Kieran loves him and Mark hates him. That is pretty much as unrequited as it gets. And even if it isn't the main romance, a lot of people that I am seeing are talking about it. So it is pretty main to the readers.
I agree that it is main to us. But I don't think Mark hates Kieran.. I think he thinks what he did (allowing Julian and Emma get whipped) was unforgivable, and he felt a sense of hatred for a while, but when he looks at Kieran he still feels love and longing. I think we're just going to have to wait for Lord of Shadows.. which in itself sounds Fairie, so does Queen of Air and Darkness, for that matter.
Hmmm I don't know Diego well, but he doesn't seem malicious to me...He just seems to be a well-intentioned but naive person, and he didn't *really* betray Cristina, unless he was lying about what happened that night with Jaime. But who knows, maybe I'm the naive one, haha. I'm curious about Jaime too.As for who the unrequited lovers are, honestly I have always thought that comment was a mistake. From what I see, there are no unrequited loves here. Even after Mark's break up with Kieran, lots of signs show that Mark still loves him, at least in my opinion! Julian and Emma clearly are in love with each other. Cristina and Mark seem to have this semi-romantic, semi-platonic thing (it seems to me), but whatever it is, it seems requited too. Cristina still seems to love Diego and Diego her as well. I guess the only "unrequited love" I see is Drusilla's towards Diego...but since that seems so minor and unserious, this is probably not it. Lol sorry, I'm not helping, am I? XD
Serena wrote: "Hmmm I don't know Diego well, but he doesn't seem malicious to me...He just seems to be a well-intentioned but naive person, and he didn't *really* betray Cristina, unless he was lying about what h..."haha no it's okay, I think all our brains are all over the place.. Cassandra knows how to make us go crazy (Jace and Clary's sibling scare).
Yeah she does! Lol and I'm predicting that she's going to do a similar romance pattern to TMI. So we have the forbidden romance (Clary and Jace, and Julian and Emma); and then we have the awesome gay couple that encounters major relationship issues, including trust, but get together in the end (Magnus and Alec, and hopefully Kieran and Mark too.)Yes, I will admit that another reason why I love Kieran and Mark is because I'm very fond of gay romances. ^^
And related to what I mentioned earlier, I want Mark and Kieran to succeed because so far for the main romances, I've seen shadowhunter lovers, warlock lovers, vampire lovers (Simon counts), and even werewolf lovers. But we have yet to see any faerie lovers in the main cast--so Kieran is a first! (I haven't read TID yet, reading Clockwork Angel right now, so if there is a main faerie love interest there, please don't tell me, hahaha.)
Oh goodness. You're right, Cassie really does know how to make us crazy. All I know is that I ship them so much...I don't know how she does it. Like how do I feel so strongly for people she made up? I don't know but I do.It will break my heart if Kieran and Mark don't end up together. I feel like there are more people that want Mark and Cristina , but it's just crazy to me because their relationship is so dull! Like seriously. That's one of the reasons I was so happy about the introduction of Kieran. I also totally love gay romances. Their relationship just really touched me. And you have a good point there, Selena, with saying that we need a good faerie relationship. I guess there is meliorn but he sucks and it a jerk so that doesn't count. I just wish I could get into her mind.
I know that we have some hope. We have the fact that he clutched his neck for the necklace he had given and the fact that he said if Kieran ever really needed him, he should call. There is plenty of hope for Cristina too, but like you said, Emily, we will just have to wait. Until then all we have is our scattered brains!
Like I'm trying to pull all the things I know about how Cassie does relationships and it really just confuses me more. And yeah I think that the names of the next two are very interesting and Faerie like. Lord of Shadows.. Queen of AIR and darkness. I really hope she adds more faerie to it.
Fingers crossed..
Kieran and Mark forever! I think if they don't get together in the end, I will have to resort to writing and reading KieranXMark fanfiction to assuage my sadness, sigh. Oh I forgot to mention that it seems Kieran represents freedom, excitement, and adventure; whilst Cristina represents family and duty. Right? From how Emma describes Mark, Mark seems to have a natural yearning for adventure, wildness, and "the storm", which I think Kieran would be more capable of providing him than Cristina would. Cristina is a very nice girl, and I like her, but she doesn't seem nearly as exciting as Kieran...
But there was a part where Mark thinks he loves the freedom and thrill of the Hunt (with Kieran associated with it), but "freedom is an illusion"; in the end, he still has his family and loves them--he has his "ties". What do you make of Mark's statement? I think characters can always change their minds; they often are stubbornly set on one belief, then much later, they change their belief! So I wouldn't say that Mark's belief about himself here is set in stone. What kind of life do you think Mark actually wants? What kind of partner does he really desire? What if Cristina eventually bores him? Or, on the contrary, what if he gets tired of roaming wild with Kieran? At the same time, Kieran and Cristina are also not static people; they may change in personality and circumstances too, or adjust themselves for their partner. Kieran and Mark might be able to work something out where they can be together, but Mark can also see his family often?
Haha just throwing out all those possibilities.
Yeah those are definitely good points. That's why it's so hard to gauge from the first book because soooo much can change. I really don't know where she is going with this...I just hope that the ending doesn't leave me unsatisfied. I know that Kieran is a good person and i can't see Cassie just leaving him to be alone all his life you know?
Yay, I'm glad you think Kieran is a good person too, or at least, he tries his best and is willing to learn and change. I'm still struck by how Kieran was willing to let Mark go at the end of the book, and even offered to fight for Mark's right to stay with his family. This indicates to me that Kieran is not as selfish as we may think--or maybe he learned to be more selfless? I don't know. Yeah, I don't want Kieran to be left all by himself either. :(
BTW how would you feel if Kieran ends up with someone else (not Mark)? What if Kieran becomes lovers with another Shadowhunter in the end? Or another faerie? (Or any other species.) I'm not sure if Kieran likes girls too, but if he isn't with Mark, I think it would be more interesting to see him with another guy than with a girl. Hahaha sorry, I dig gay romances too much. XD.
But ideally I want Kieran to be with Mark because of how romantic and moving their backstory was.
The worst case scenario would be if Kieran kind of gets kicked out of the story because his role is already over after his breakup with Mark. T_T Wow I would be super sad if that happens, because, as I said, Kieran is my fav. At the very least, I would like Kieran to stay as one of the main cast or be a very important secondary character!
Hey Emily, Cassie answers questions on Mark and Kieran, and her answers give me hope:http://cassandraclare.tumblr.com/post...
At the very least, Kieran will definitely remain an important character in the series!
Girls, this is so intense! I don't think Kieran would be kicked out!! D: I think that when he said he'd fight, and then let Mark go, means that he'll be back cause he'll plan his own faerie plan that could eventually get Mark back in the hunt. As you said Selena, Mark loves the adventure and wildness that the hunt brings, so he has a means to be lured back in.
The more I think about it, the more I seem to love Kieran, he's obviously been hurt and abandoned by his father, and to be somewhat compassionate means he's probably not what a faerie of the unseal court should be like. And I really like the way Cassandra has described his look. So dark and mysterious and broken... He's so interesting!!!!
I know, right? Hahaha I'm so in love with Kieran. XDOh good point about how the Unseelie court is especially known for housing terrible faeries, and Kieran was a prince there. (Does Kieran actually still count as a prince? The backstory said he was stripped of his rank as prince when he came to the Hunt, yet people still call him the/a prince...)
Also, I forgot to say that we still don't know what Kieran did to get exiled from the royal court. To my knowledge, Kieran is the only faerie prince in the wild hunt, right? That already hints that Kieran may be different from your average faerie. When we first meet Kieran in Lady Midnight, he threw off his hood in a "rebellious" way, which may also suggest that he's a special faerie...
And anyway, hahaha, you have no idea how extremely relieved I am when Cassie said Kieran will continue to be a major character in the story, since he's a son of the Unseelie King. Cassie said Kieran will appear even more in later books than in Lady Midnight too. :D. I also feel encouraged that she said that though Mark wants to be with his siblings, at the same time, he won't want to leave the faerie world altogether either.
Gosh, the more we discuss Kieran and Mark (or Kierark!), the more passionately I ship them. LOLL
yeah I'd say he did something bad to fall out with his dad.. maybe he slept with the Seelie queen? Maybe before Mark he was in love with a vamp or a warlock or a lycanthrope!? Maybe he killed a brother or a sister? SOOO many possibilities! He is a very special faerie... I think i'm starting to swoon for him haha
They do seem to keep referring to him as a prince but, it seems to me that, Iarlath uses a mocking tone when he calls him a prince, like he never should have been one.. But wasn't Iarlath the King's right hand man?
ANYWAY gone a bit off topic... sooooo..
That's great! I can't wait to find out more about Kieran in the next books!!
Markan? Kierak?
Hahaha I'm happy that you love Kieran more and more now too! He didn't appear that much in Lady Midnight as the other characters did, so we don't get to know him as well, perhaps. But after discussing so much in this thread, I think we unearthed quite a lot of stuff about him!Lolll yeah sorry I keep leading us off into tangents. But anyway, I was hoping that perhaps the thing Kieran did to get exiled to the hunt, might help him get back together with Mark? ^^ Gosh, my fantasies are running wild!
Oh and I would like to know more about Kieran and Mark's relationship during the Hunt too. The backstory was beautiful, but it had to be brief. I would be curious about their little moments together. E.g. Mark mentioned in his internal monologue that Kieran always says, "It's easier to live in truth than in a lie". I love these little things! So sweet. I get the feeling that Mark will have many flashbacks about Kieran throughout the later books.
Yeah those little comments and sweet things are the best, that's what makes their story so intriguing!
GUYS GUYS GUYS! So I was going through the Lady Midnight quotes that have been put on here.... this was one..
'"I wasn’t aware you were invited at all,” said Kieran. His speech had a casual edge, as if he was used to talking to humans.'
AS IF HE WAS USED TO TALKING TO HUMANS
Maybe that is a clue as to what happened and why he was exiled to the Hunt!
OH MY LORD! so excited
Omg! Yeah! Maybe he befriended some humans and helped them before, and of course his father the Unseelie King considered that a betrayal? Since they did have that cold peace pact that basically cuts the faeries off from the rest of the world. In fact, Lady Midnight seems to talk QUITE A LOT about how faeries are shut off from the Shadowhunters and even the other downworlders, and that some Shadowhunters feel this is unfair because the Clave is punishing an entire species for something only a group of faeries (the Seelie Queen and her army) did. Was the Unseelie King involved in the Dark War at all? So I have a feeling that this faerie vs the rest of the world "species /cultural conflict" thing will be a big theme in the Dark Artifices. Mark and Kieran would probably be related to that theme.Do you also remember how Iarlath comments that Kieran has a thing for blondes? I wonder if this means Kieran has fallen for or been in a relationship with another blond boy (or girl) before Mark. Or Iarlath was just remarking on how obsessed Kieran is with Mark, who is blond.
In the same scene, Kieran commented that Emma was pretty and that he didn't think she would be pretty; he "looked at Emma as if she were a new kind of flower, one he wasn't sure he liked". Wow was Kieran already getting wary and worrying that Emma would steal Mark away from him with her looks?
Just another thing: Before Kieran and Iarlath leave Mark with Julian and co, Kieran put his hands on Mark's shoulders and said something in a guttural language. "Mark didn't move, and Kieran stepped away, looking unsurprised." Earlier in the scene, Kieran looked at Mark with a kind of coldness, and Kieran seemed very upset when Emma called Mark their bargaining chip. I'm guessing that all these mean that Kieran was mad and resentful that Mark had to leave him for a while. But I still wonder what exactly Kieran was saying in that guttural language, and why Kieran was unsurprised, lol.
Plus, I'm curious how Mark managed to contact Kieran to ask to borrow his faerie steed. Maybe Mark used acorns or something? I don't know, but he must have managed it somehow without Gwyn knowing.
Oh wait one more thing: Mark mentioned that Kieran was supposed to meet him the night Mark was taking care of his siblings. If Kieran really did meet him then, I wonder what would have happened, with Mark's siblings probably seeing Kieran (and maybe noticing the way Kieran and Mark look at each other!!!)
Yeah I agree, faeire vs the rest of the world is a massive theme. It was referred to like every 5 page lol!I thought about that too, that Mark might not be the only person Kieran had been with.. maybe it was a blonde human! Maybe Kieran thought that Mark would be sent to someone who wasn't as good looking as he thinks he is lol!!
Hm, I wonder what he said too.. Maybe he said 'I love you' in faerie?
He might have used an acorn, definitely wouldn't have been a fire message or anything a shadowhunter might use because it would have been identified in faerie as different, and Mark was still afraid of the Nephilim's ways at that point.
I wonder why Kieran didn't come.. I'm assuming (other than Mark tell Cristina how to take Gwyn's power away) that he thought there was something more intimate than just a physical connection cause physicality doesn't matter to faeries, only the emotional..?
But did they actually love each other? They were the only two people around and when you're stuck with somebody for so long you'd feel so close to them but that doesn't necessarily mean that you love them.I feel like the whole relationship was a little bit forced and it came out of nowhere. It was explained how the relationship began but I felt like it was kind of rushed a little bit. If we got to read a little bit more about the two of them beforehand it might have felt more natural.
Mark obviously cares for Christina and was clearly hurt when he found her with Diego at the end of the book. We got to see their relationship (friendship?) develop through the book and I'd like to see more of the two of them later in this series.
Mark and Kieran clearly care for each other too but Kieran has now betrayed Mark because of Julian and Emma being whipped. That's just a massive NO for me. I could never be with somebody who did that to people that I care about.
Kieran seemed very selfish and I didn't like him as a character. I feel like he's going to be back in the next two books at some point but I couldn't care less if he did or not.
I don't think that just because all they had was each other means that they do not love each other. If I were in the hunt, and everyone was mean to me and then there was one person that wasn't and I got to know them on a deep level, I would love that person. It doesn't matter that they're the only one. I would love them because I knew them and they were there for me. And you can see it in the way they look at each other the way that they feel. Emma didn't even need to be told that they had been together, she could just see it.Kieran did a bad thing, you're right. But something people need to understand is he has never known the love of a family, and, therefore, he does not understand it. Mark is "the only thing under the stars that I do love." He saw Julian as just another person. He did not understand what he meant to Mark because he has never felt that. Another big thing to notice is that when he saw that Julian did mean something to Mark, he had compassion and set him by the tree.
Thanks, Emily! Yes, we have to keep in mind that Kieran had a disadvantaged upbringing compared to all the other main teenage characters. The others grew up in a healthy, loving Shadowhunter home, whilst Kieran was brought up in a family where he never saw his mom, his dad sold him to the Hunt, and all of his many brothers would be happy to see him dead. Plus, Kieran was raised in the faerie world, in the Unseelie court too, which is known for its nastiness. With all that bad influence, it's a wonder that Kieran wasn't much more selfish and cruel. In fact, as I mentioned above, I argue that Kieran is pretty morally impressive given his terrible and corruptive upbringing. And what is important is that Kieran is willing to learn to become a better person. He knows that what he did was bad, regrets it, and tries hard to make amends. He also doesn't seem to reject Mark's words when Mark taught him about family love. Yes, Kieran was resentful at first because he never had a loving, caring family, but he doesn't protest any further, and he was willing to let Mark stay with his family and even speak for Mark to let him stay. Thus, Kieran is not as selfish or possessive as we may think--or at least, he has grown to become more selfless and understanding. We need to remember that characters can always change for the better; they aren't doomed to stay the same way. More on Kieran not being that selfish or possessive, is that he said Mark may be physically intimate with Cristina if he wants. True, faeries generally don't care about physical fidelity as much, but I get the feeling that Kieran would prefer to even have that level of faithfulness. So for Kieran to offer that, shows that he's willing to let Mark go a bit, though it hurts Kieran. He does love and care about Mark, after all.
Also, yes, some people think that what Mark feels for Kieran can't be real love, that it was just a desperate emotional dependence on the only person that was available. But as Emily said, just because he was the only one Mark could rely on, doesn't mean the love isn't real. I would also sincerely love the only person who was kind to me within a hostile environment where pretty much everyone else was cruel and disparaging towards me. Gratitude can be involved, but gratitude can deepen into love, passion, longing, and affection too. Even the descriptions of their kisses included the words "love" and "longing".
As for how Mark felt hurt when he saw Cristina and Diego together, well, feelings are not that clear-cut or clean in real life. It's unfortunate, but it definitely can happen that you deeply love your partner, but you later also develop romantic or semi-romantic feelings for someone else too. That doesn't mean you fell out of love with your partner, however. Yes, the situation would be very unideal and messy, but it is possible to love and want more than one person at a time. But I think Mark loves and longs for Kieran more deeply and passionately, from seeing their scenes together. With Cristina, it looks like Mark really likes her and maybe wants to be physically intimate with her too, but his feelings for her really don't seem as deep, profound, and fiery as they are for Kieran.
Another good point that was raised is that Mark and Kieran got to know each other on a deep level too, so it's not just lust, physical attraction, or mere emotional dependence. We could see that they shared so much together, telling each other about the shadowhunter and faerie world, and Kieran showing Mark all those things only faeries would know. Kieran made the hunt into an adventure for Mark as well, and made Mark see the glory (joy) of the hunt. Plus, Kieran was the only one who was able to let Mark own his shadowhunter identity to any extent, letting Mark whisper, "I am a shadowhunter. I am a shadowhunter. I am a shadowhunter." to Kieran.
The part where "the sight of Kieran was still enough to make his heart ache" was also telling, because Mark goes on to describe both Kieran's physical and personality traits. Mark describes them in a way that shows he really knows, loves, and cares about Kieran as a person, not just as a pretty boy.
Yet, I do get what you're saying, Stacey, that it might seem more natural if we got to see more hints of Mark and Kieran's relationship earlier in the book. On the other hand, if you read the short story "Bitter of Tongue" before Lady Midnight, you may get some inkling that Mark and Kieran had something romantic going on between them, so this may make the revelation in Lady Midnight that they are indeed lovers a bit less abrupt. However, just talking about LM, I think Cassie might have not dropped hints on their romantic relationship from the beginning, because she wanted to surprise us. It was a happy surprise to me, but I can see how it may seem to come out of the blue for others, especially if they want Mark with Cristina.
As for why Kieran didn't visit Mark that night he was looking after his siblings, Kieran did actually come to the Institute. But he was outside the window watching Cristina and Mark, and angrily crushed an acorn between his fingers, if you remember that one line at the end of the scene. Kieran probably did think there was something substantial and emotional going on between Mark and Cristina, so he thought Mark was cheating on him. So, since in the faerie culture, emotional cheaters were punished severely, Kieran informed on Mark to punish him. Kieran also thought they would simply be taking Mark away back to the Hunt; he had no idea that it would lead to Julian and Emily getting whipped. I think it's unfair to hate someone for something they didn't intend, but maybe that's just me. I would say Kieran was very naive rather than a bad person. But like most of us, Kieran can learn from his mistakes. Perhaps we as humans don't consider "emotional unfaithfulness" as "cheating" per se if our partner never does anything physically intimate with the other person, so we might think Kieran was overreacting and ridiculously jealous and selfish. But to faeries, "emotional infidelity" is just as bad--or even worse-- than sexual infidelity is to us humans.
One more thing: I noticed that ever since the whipping scene, though Kieran still seems jealous of Cristina, he also doesn't accuse Mark of emotional disloyalty anymore. If Kieran was REALLY selfish, he would have been very defensive and argued that "the whipping was an accident, and it was your fault, Mark, for betraying me first. You started it! So it wasn't my fault." Instead, after that whipping scene, Kieran never denies that he was at fault; he never tries to minimize what he did wrong. Kieran was genuinely sorry and repentant when you saw how he looked at Mark, begging for forgiveness. Kieran also took the effort to follow Iarlath and later came to find Mark, Julian, Emma and co to help them save Taavy, even though he knew everyone hated him and would probably want to kill him. I really am quite impressed that Kieran never brings up "Mark's romantic betrayal" anymore after the whipping incident!
That was so much to read.. I seriously can't comment anymore, I feel like it would be going in circles (not that there's anything wrong with that!) but all I can say is, I can't wait for Lord of Shadows. Why do books have to take so long to come out :'(
Haha sorry for my long replies. ^_^" And true, we're starting to repeat some points. Can't wait for Lord of Shadows too!
I like your long replies actually haha. But guys!!!! Look what I just saw on Cassandra's Tumblr!!!http://cassandraclare.tumblr.com/post...
READ IT
Thanks, lol! As I said, I'm way too obsessed with Kieran for my own good. XD After reading the tumblr post:
*Screams* YAY!!!!!!! Oh my goodness that sneak peek was so tantalizing! Cassie is very good at milking tons of mystery and suspense. :D I can't wait to see what exactly they are doing in this scene!
And lol we aren't the only ones worried about Kieran and Mark: "I have many, many panicked messages in my inbox about this"
Haha I think there is some hope.
I know! I loved it till Cristina came, of course...But yeah I know! I was so happy to see that we were not alone in our love for Kieran- and she noticed it too! She is currently writing the Lord of Shadows so hopefully she understands how much we want them lolol
Hahaha yeah such a good feeling to know that there are so many other Kieran fans. :D It's so nice that Cassie answers readers' questions too!
Ugh... I'm so tired of seeing Cristina shippers
Ahahaha I feel you
I don't ship them anymore. But I did love their relationship. It was very different to the other ones in Lady Midnight. Also, before getting to the part where Kieran and Mark kiss, I thought that the Faerie world thingy was really superficial and deceptive (everything looks beautiful but it actually isn't). I thought the Hunt and faeries in general were evil and out to get everyone. But after Marien's relationship was revealed, I realised that is wasn't all bad! I mean even though their relationship developed because they were the only ones with emotions there, it was still touching and completely changed my opinions of the Faeries.
Yes and I really like that. My hope is that she explores that further, and shows that you're not inherently bad just because of your species.
Yeah I love how we're finally getting some insider's perspective on the faerie species!
Atmika wrote: "I don't ship them anymore. But I did love their relationship. It was very different to the other ones in Lady Midnight. Also, before getting to the part where Kieran and Mark kiss, I thought that t..."When I first made this thread, I really shipped them. I was hoping for a hero falls in love with enemykind of relationship, but now I don't think I ship them together, for a major reason. They love each other in too different ways. Kieran, a faerie can never understand how a human, or even a half human, for that matter, can love his family more than the world. Which is why he let Jules and Emma get whipped. That brings me to Mark. He belongs to his family, his family belongs to him. He would never, ever betray them. And being with Kieran would be exactly that, because he let them get hurt. If Kieran truly understood Mark, he would not have let his family get hurt. It's that simple.
But maybe he can learn. He has never known a family love. His father threw him out. He literally doesn't know any better, and that's not fair.
But will Mark be ready to teach him?
Heck, they might be canon. Cassie did say we were going to be seeing a lot of Kieran. I'm confused now as to where I stand.
Haha I agree with Emily that Kieran can learn from his mistakes. People can change, after all, unless Kieran happens to be a static character, which I don't think is the case...It makes for a more exciting story to read about someone who changes and improves for their significant other, rather than someone who was already perfect for their SO from the start. IMO, at least.
Yes I agree with Serena. There is a reason that dynamic characters are far more interesting to read about than static- I want to see change. I want to see him get better. I think that it is sad that all faeries are destined to be evil just because of their species. I want to see Kieran learn and grow. I don't want him to be doomed. That's sad. I love Kieran and I do want him with Mark. But my biggest thing is I just want Kieran to be happy, even if it isn't with Mark. I hate stories that follow the line I expect them to. I don't want Kieran to be some character that is just added to put drama into Mark and Cristina's relationship (same with Diego). Like, these are real people (in the story)! They deserve a chance too...I guess my point is that Mark could be good with Kieran. It could bring out the good in both of them (if they're willing to learn).
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I know, I know. He's selfish. He doesn't understand. But he kept Mark from despair all these years. Shouldn't that count for something?