Series: Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson ("Gardens of the Moon")

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thanks, Nav! I really appreciate it, and I love your explanation, very helpful. We just want people to be properly confused--they need to get the whole experience like all of us haha!

[Nav]

Done :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

You rock, Nav, thanks!

[Maggie]

about my question , in GotM (view spoiler)[ when Paran is saved at the gates, there is talk about a 'trade' . we arent sure who they mean there (hide spoiler)] but then in this prologue (view spoiler)[ they both mention that Felisin's father had died after Ganoes disappeared. His was the life that was taken in Paran's place. The speculation seems to be the deaths were connected. I guess they were, but not in the way it is being inferred here. Also, the position of adjunct requires shedding the past life. Herboric mentions something about Tavore likely having made provision for Felisin to remain alive. Felisin however, seems to have bought into her betrayal (hide spoiler)]

[Peter_Banning]

DG prologue

(view spoiler)[ Was Paran’s father the trade... or his mother, who died not long after. Or... is the trade still coming?! And theory here, Tavore is pretending to join the Empire in order to “save” her sister since Laseen likes to kill the nobles. (hide spoiler)]

This book is just starting and I’ve already got tons more questions now that I have some understanding from book 1.

[Maggie]

It seems to me that given the dates then and now, (view spoiler)[ it had to be his father.
IIRC, when we meet Tavore in GotM, she is talking about the family's position. Also we will learn about her military ambitions. It would seem more that the adjunct position was important to her both personally and for the family reputation. A family member to the cull is the price to pay for that. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

That could well be, too. I'll hang out and see if it's clarified :)

[Sabrina]

Allison wrote: "
Rallick Nom and Kruppe
Mallick Rel and Kulp
Temul, Tumlit
Lorn, L'oric, Heboric"

Dujek and Duiker: I can't keep them apart *exasperated*

Nav wrote: "Don't ever use the Malazan wiki - you will spoil something for yourself..."

Thanks for the warning. Unfortunately, it's just the one that works best for me. For now, I'll go with the chapter by chapter summaries after I've read them. This helps me a lot.

[Maggie]

I love Coltaine so much!
Malick Rel ???? Booooo

[Travis]

I'm also enjoying Coltaine!

It's interesting that Erikson so frequently refers to his characters by an aspect of their identities ("the assassin," "the Trell," "the Claw") as often as he does by their names. A writer's device to avoid repetition? Or a statement about how this world sees people and operates?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Spoiler through Chapter 3, DG

(view spoiler)[

I need help, buddies. I was pretty [expletive] livid that it started with what seemed to be rape and then was downgraded to potential rape. I was pretty pissed that the author decided to go the route of sexual bartering with the mentality that "the only thing she had of worth was between her legs," which is...wow that speaks volumes.

But then Felisin is fourteen and I'm about to rage quit. Please someone tell me how much power trip effing rape to expect in this book/series and if Felisin's character is treated with anything like respect by the author in the coming chapters. Respect here means she has human emotions, isn't just a devious woman garnering provisions with sex, that we see her as the spoiled child who is suddenly in an exceptionally cruel environment and that soon her worth is more than the fact that she has a vagina and said a perfunctory "yes" so that it wouldn't actually be rape in the author's mind. (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Allison wrote: "Spoiler through Chapter 3, DG

I hear you, Alison and send you some strong female support!

Spoilers DG, end chapter 3 (view spoiler)[ I was surprised with Felisin’s reasoning as well. I was even more surprised that it actually worked. In my opinion, being a slave means your body is already sold and everyone can do to it what they want without the inconvenience of giving additional favours. So, the only thing that should have saved her are her wits.
I don’t think this will help, but I think in this book she is 15 years old. Also, I kind of liked how she is resolved to survive and to take her revenge: “Survive each hour, the next hour… […]. One day, face to face, sister.” So, I have a lot of hope for her for the future…
(hide spoiler)]

No idea what the future holds, except for chapter 4 DG (view spoiler)[ I found these even harder to read, because Felisin lost something of herself in this chapter. Although, I still have hope that this was a wake-up call. (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Travis wrote: "It's interesting that Erikson so frequently refers to his characters by an aspect of their identities ("the assassin," "the Trell," "the Claw") as often as he does by ..."

This stood out to me as well. Although, I thought it might be to help the reader to remember a character. But then we are talking about Erikson here. So, it’s probably just a weird statement.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hang on, it gets worse?!

=S

(view spoiler)[ I agree, if we're in a world with enslavement and sexual bartering, then this feels like the author is imagining she has the control in these situations as either a way to keep himself from having to write rape or he's writing a male fantasy based on TV and books that always show the oppressed person as sexy and proud. Neither make me feel like this is the sort of author I want to invest time in. There's soooo much rape in stories, if I'm going to read about it, I want it to be from someone who wasn't aiming to make slave Leia for a fantasy universe.

It's not so much that this happened as how we're hearing about it that is making me so very angry. I want Felisin to do something cool. Rape victim as an "origin story" for a badass lady in the future is a trope that really infuriates me. (hide spoiler)]

[Peter_Banning]

DG chap 3 spoilers

So from my understanding, Almost everything Erickson writes, especially in his earlier books, has a reason.
(view spoiler)[ So, there will be a point to this other than damsel in distress, selling herself for everything. Erickson does seem to be very graphic in his details for killing and seems to try to be realistic in how war affects people, so him going into detail here, about her rape stuff, does not surprise me. Rape is something that creates very strong feelings and that may be very important to how she develops as a character. With that being said, Erickson doesn't seem the type to go into detail with stuff and then just brush over something like that.

From a source - There is pretty much nothing that happens for no reason and a general quote for the series is, "Read and find out". A running theme in the series seems to be the depths of depravity of civilization and the heights of heroism. So, there will be a little more (some worse) but there is also going to be much much better good. The author has personally spoken out about his reasons for this and he does have actual reasons. They have nothing to do with shock or sexual fantasy stuff. (the actual answers contain spoilers for the series). (hide spoiler)]

Hope this helps a little one way or the other.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thank you, Darrik, I think that might help, yes :) Like I said, I'm not surprised it's there, just how it's approached.

[Peter_Banning]

Yeah, I agree with you Allison. I’m not found of it either but there really isn’t a “good” way of approaching that kinda thing. I guess it’s kinda a necessary evil, so to speak. Just reminds me, this is no happy sunshine and rainbows fairy tail, in case the cool characters and action parts lull me into thinking otherwise. Lol 😆

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Lol. I know what you mean, i had no delusions it would be happy! But i disagree, there are ways of handling this topic very well, that make a huge impact and make you feel strongly without the mess this is. It won't ever be pleasant, but it can be well written. This is, in my opinion, not so here. I've read this scene too many times by too many authors to accept this is the best that could be done.

[Peter_Banning]

Ohhhh this is the first time I’ve read a scene like that so I was unaware of there being better ways. But it makes sense that there are... I kinda wanna google why he did it like that, but I kinda don’t wanna ruin anything either lol

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I know! Hoping Jen or Beth or someone comes to help me out so i don't need to read spoilers at random!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Nicki, thank you thank you thank you!! That is a huge help. I'll give it a couple days so I cool off and soldier on. :)

[Travis]

Chapter 6

(view spoiler)[
I'm rushing, so these are totally incoherent thoughts:

There have been some elements of this volume's horror elements (I don't read much horror, so someone correct me if that's an inappropriate description) that struck me as a bit silly and cartoony, like the description of the aptorian demon gifted from Sha'ik to Kalam, but the scene with the bloodflies truly made me feel like I'd need to wretch. Our discussions about Felisin's rape seem really relevant here: this is an echo. She's violated, penetrated, and impregnated against her will. Her involuntary screaming seemed to be both about the immediate aftermath of the flies and the experience from which she's hopefully escaping. How much is this poor character going to be put through?

At this point in the novel, I'm ready for a break in the action -- for Erikson to show that he's capable of more than the combined notes of unrelenting bleakness and stacked action scenes. (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

Allison wrote: "Yes, I'd actually love to talk about some of Gardens in more detail because there's a lot flying by me, too. Beth has said that Deadhouse was easier to read, so you've also go that going for you!"

(three weeks later) Yep, that's what I said, and at about the 1/3 mark on Gardens, I'm sticking with it. The two are very obviously by the same person, but Deadhouse is SO MUCH BETTER.

I've listened to the first short chapter of Part II of Gardens in audio, and am back in the game on this book. Kruppe miraculously transformed from an intolerable who-knows-what to a self-aware, funny guy entirely thanks to the narration. I'll be doing some necroposting on this one while you guys are chugging away on Deadhouse next month.

[Travis]

Running out the door, so super quick:

Through ch. 15:

(view spoiler)[I've enjoyed this middle third of the book so much more than the first. So many beautiful moments and sentences. I love that the demon I found at first to be cartoonishly depicted (at least her appearance) is now one of my favorite characters and that she now has a name: Apt. While I'm still unsure what he's doing with Felisin's character, I'm no longer cringing every time she has a scene. And the train of refugees I find so moving...hard not to think of large groups of migrants moving north from Central America today. Other favorite characters: all the child warlocks, Coltaine, Icarium and Mappo (of course!)... When will Duiker's potential romantic interest get a name??? Because she's a new favorite as well. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

ch. 18

(view spoiler)[At this point, it's getting difficult for me to do anything but keep reading.

Must. Finish. Day's. Work.

But I'm popping in here to say how much I loved the humor in the scene between Coltaine, Mincer, and Bungle. LOL at how Erikson has spent the entire novel setting up the tremendous humor here. Don't we all need our beauty sleep? :) (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

End Book 2 (Chapter 10) DG: It’s not going well for me…

(view spoiler)[ Good things first: I think the writing is much improved and I can read more straightforward. I still check the Wiki after every chapter and so far, that helped me to keep track of everyone. So, I’m not feeling lost and am quite engaged in this vast world. I love the Deck of Dragons and hope it comes up a little more.
Unfortunately, this is all overshadowed by the lack of depth of the characters. All of them feel so distant to me and currently I wouldn’t mind any of them dying (maybe Apsalar). I just want to care more for them, I want to hate some, want to feel intrigued, throw my kindle against a wall, crying for joy or sadness. I just can’t deal with this indifference!
Finally, I have some questions:
- Chapter 7: How did Mappo and Icarum suddenly (and conveniently) turn up to save Fiddler, Crokus and Apsalam?
- Chapter 9: “She was capable, but if he let her, her own needs would end up undermining that capability.” What am I supposed to think of this? And this sentence from one of my remaining favourites (Kalam): they’re dwindling really fast (Felisin was first to go: her behaviour gets worse and remains incomprehensible to me).
(hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Travis wrote: "Chapter 6..."

(view spoiler)[ I agree the bloodflies were certainly a turning point in Felisin's life. Still, to me, they're not enough to explain Felisin's behaviour. Why does she want to save Beneth? Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome? (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Sabrina wrote: "Travis wrote: "Chapter 6..."

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I was also very confused by her behavior and, especially, by her loyalty to Beneth. Stockholm syndromes of some sort seems the most likely explanation.

Re. characters. I was having the same thoughts you are right around chapter 10, but very quickly after that many of the characters began to acquire real depth. We start to get some extremely moving moments after that too, as well as some really lovely humor. (hide spoiler)]

[Soo]

I started Deadhouse Gates audiobook. Right now, I do not see how this is more compelling or interesting way to start the series. GotM and DG start with a similar vibe.

I'm going to be annoyed if it takes 60% for the story to make me care/interested.

Right now, I am more curious about the following of the series. A lot of people love the series. I feel like half the appeal has to be talking about it because I know I would not be trying to read it all if I was on my own.

[Travis]

Just finished. It maybe took me 35% to care and become interested. The final half frequently took my breath away. I found the Tor rereads super helpful and enjoyable. I'd try to read the relevant entry every time I finished a chapter or two.

[Peter_Banning]

I kinda researched the series quite a bit before starting for just this reason. From what I seemed to have gathered is that people that love it, do so because it is different. There are extreme lows and highs and the author doesn't seem to shy away from details in either case. The real reason I think though is because of how it is written. There is not really good vs evil although there are both but that is not the premise of the series. In most fantasy there is a single good guy or group of good people vs an evil person, group, or force and things get explained in chunks. The book starts and you learn all about the world. You meet the main character and you learn a huge portion of their story. You find out there is magic and a powerful mage comes along and explains the entire magic system. Then you have the bad guy and you don't get much background on him other than he wants to control the world, kill everyone etc. This series doesn't explain anything all at once, which is why most people say its tough to listen to audio book and you need to reread the series to fully enjoy it. The first time through you miss so much because the random stuff from book 2 might not make sense until book nine at which point you have forgotten. So, with all the new knowledge, if you reread the series, you'll understand the random and incoherent things in the books that you might not get right now.

In this series though, good isn't necessarily good and bad isn't necessarily bad. Both sides have heroes and villains, both sides have doubts about everything. There is no single perspective in this series as in war. There are people on both sides and in-between who have thoughts and fears and stories to tell.

'Cheesy Part' Most fantasy is black and white, good vs evil, but this series focuses on all the shades of grey in-between those two. I think all of this is why most people either love or hate this series... At least those are my thoughts/feelings on it lol.

[Soo]

Good to see why you are into it, Darrik. For me, I don't want to read spoilers about the books. I want to experience for myself. Audio helps because it gets me over the hump/inconsistent parts and I can enjoy the rest. I started re-reading the print for GotM and put it down to do after book 3.

I've read plenty of books/series that delve into the layers between extremes. Some of my fav books have it in spades. That's not enough for me to love a series. I'm still waiting for the plot lines & characters to gel enough that I can enjoy all of the unfolding events. The events alone aren't amazing enough to keep me invested.

Travis, thanks! I'll keep an eye on that. Around 30% mark.

I've gotten to parts where Allison probably wanted to stab the book. =)

[Sabrina]

Soo wrote: "I feel like half the appeal has to be talking about it because I know I would not be trying to read it all if I was on my own... That's not enough for me to love a series. I'm still waiting for the plot lines & characters to gel enough that I can enjoy all of the unfolding events. The events alone aren't amazing enough to keep me invested. …"

Speaking from my heart! Shades of grey are great, but characters need depth, I want to feel something when I’m reading “epic” events.
I’m at 50% and apart from one cool chapter, I’m mostly feeling detached from it all. I just don’t care enough for the characters. Such a pity, I want to love this.

[Travis]

Sabrina wrote: "I’m at 50% and apart from one cool chapter, I’m mostly feeling detached from it all. I just don’t care enough for the characters. "

Yeah, I ultimately really enjoyed this book, but the characters in GotM grew on my much more quickly than the characters here.

[Soo]

I am told that I will know for sure if I like the series and want to read it by taking in the first three books. With that in mind, I'm going to listen to the audiobooks and take it from there. I think it is asking for a lot from the reader. 3 books = 2.5k pages.

I adore long books! Flipside being that usually means it doesn't feel like work to read them.

About 25% in and events are finally hedging to the point of the arc in DH.

[Travis]

DHG Chapter 22

(view spoiler)[The ending of this chapter, the brutal, horrible, unreadable ending of this chapter.

Before that, though, I really enjoyed Mappo's inner dialogue and, especially, the sentence: "And so, the simple truth ... the tracks we have walked in for so long become our lives, in themselves a prison--"

Maybe reaching, but the fact that he ends with the em-dash--that punctuation mark most closely associated with Emily Dickinson--makes me wonder if he's thinking of this poem.

(hide spoiler)]

[Maggie]

I think for me the attraction is the scope this series has. Even in the last book you can read something and realize it was foreshadowed right in the 1st one! As for the characters, quite a few of them are temporary!

[CBRetriever]

currently, on amazon.com, a Kindle edition of The Complete Malazan Book of the Fallen is $79.92 for US residents (plus tax if your state charges tax)

individual books are $9.99 so that would be a saving of over $20 if you want to get started with the series.

unfortunately, I lack 6 of the books, so I'm going to continue to wait until books 3-8 go down in price

[Peter_Banning]

DG Chapter 7 spoilers

I feel like a lot of stage setting is happening right now and I’m stoked for later...
(view spoiler)[ although, I do have to say, Felisin’s attachment to Beneth is kind of annoying. Like the dude raped and forced you into sex with others and was basically your pimp... and she is all like, omg he was my lover omg I hope he is okay, omg omg... ugh 😑 I understand she suffered and all but, she needs to get her head out of her a**. Maybe it’s just me though... lol (hide spoiler)]

[Beth]

Allison wrote: "I know! Hoping Jen or Beth or someone comes to help me out so i don't need to read spoilers at random!"

Oh, gosh, I've been behind on the digests since the holidays and didn't catch this post until today. Sorry!

Felisin was a tricky character for me, and to explain why would entail some spoilers from the midpoint and toward the end of the book. I felt the same way about (mentioned by Allison so not a spoiler for her) (view spoiler)[her basically ceding control of her sexuality to her slave master (hide spoiler)]. I'd say, it doesn't get worse, at least in that respect? But there are ways in which that (view spoiler)[weirdly self-abnegating but also self-serving (hide spoiler)] behavior persists.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

First off, love the use of abnegating. Secondly, thank you! I've been warned about a few future chapters, so with this outlook and that warning, I think I'm ready to try again :)

[Soo]

I moved onto book 3 audiobook & feeling blah about the author's writing style of show without really explaining. While events are more interesting, it is not keeping my attention. I would probably appreciate this book more by reading than listening.

I'm on second round of listening and will do another round to make sure I have the story. I have 4th book on audio. I plan to listen to that and decide if I will finish the series.

Cool ideas. Poor execution. That's my general response.

[Peter_Banning]

DG chapter 10 ish.


Felisin is aggravating, as I’ve said... but it turns out there is a reason for this. The author went through a lot of work to try and make her seem as realistic as possible given the situation. And on top of that we aren’t really supposed to like her right now.

Just a bit in Felisin. Kind of thinking out loud here.
(view spoiler)[ People that have finished the series say that Felisin was written absolutely brilliantly and they give examples of their teenage daughters or friends teenage daughters to show how realistic Erickson made her, as a spoiled noble teenage girl, thrust into this situation. The whole series is a tragedy just like the old Greek plays and such. It’s literally the book of the fallen, as in life, spirit and such. (hide spoiler)]

[Sabrina]

Soo wrote: "Cool ideas. Poor execution. That's my general response. ..."
Fully agree, I've finished chapter 16 DG and am currently mostly invested in the story of (view spoiler)[ Mappo and Icarium: I really want to know more about them. (hide spoiler)]

Darrik wrote: "DG chapter 10 ish.."

For those reading along, I think this is chapter 11, Felisin does not have a storyline in chapter 10. (view spoiler)[ Also, I disagree, Felisin started as one of my favourite characters: resolved to survive at any cost “She also knew, in her bruises, scratches and helpless nakedness that her lessen begun (prologue)”. At this time, she did not display any sign of being spoiled and adolescent (though she was clearly privileged). Why should her experience including repetitive abuse make her suddenly behave like a spoilt adolescent? I understand she is broken, but her behaviour is like the opposite of broken: always testing the limits, provoking, aggravating everyone… I see where the author is going with this, but for me this is rather clumsy than brilliant. (hide spoiler)]

[Peter_Banning]

Sabrina, spoiled might have been the wrong word, privileged seems to fit better for Felisin, (view spoiler)[ but as I read more it seems less of either and simply more misplaced rage. I do like her, "don't give up and persist no matter what" attitude. It's just the fact that she hates and wants Heboric and Baudin to die and she is being super disrespectful to everyone else. I could understand if they were the people who abused her or were keeping her as a slave but they are helping her and trying to stay alive themselves. Honestly I feel like she was more broken back at the prison camp and now... idk. Maybe she was broken and kind of helpless in the circumstances in the camp, but now she has options so she is just lashing out at everyone simply to prove she hasn't given up or to try and take back control in her mind? She is great to discuss though, a good book does stir emotion! :) (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Finished DG Ch 5/ Book 1

(view spoiler)[ Wait so Shadowthrone is Kellanved? How is that possible if Quick Ben was his priest and betrayed him before joining the Bridgeburners while Kellanved was still alive? (hide spoiler)]

[Peter_Banning]

DG book 1

(view spoiler)[ I had that same question and I think it gets explained. For the moment though, all I can think is that maybe Shadowthrone was just a kind of a shapeless entity that was worshipped and when Kellanved ascended he just filled that role and got the memories and powers associated with it? I think it’ll all come down to what happens when someone ascends, and that should kind of explain stuff... I hope lol. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

oh could be, Darrik! Hope we learn that soon.

[Bobby]

Darrik you are spot on. It will get explained later.

[Travis]

Bobby wrote: "Darrik you are spot on. It will get explained later."

Yes! For me, the processes and implications behind ascension were one of the more fascinating aspects of world building that this second book added.