SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
Members' Chat
>
Least favorite tropes/cliches in sci-fi and fantasy?
Kaladin wrote: "I just came across this pharase again in a couple of books and sample chapters. Like you Meredith I held my breath and let it out when the characters did. :D"I often get mildly agitated--quickened pulse and/or breathing--during scenes where characters are in adrenaline-charged situations. I haven't, uh, realized this particular one yet, though. :D
Me neither until I became aware of this cliché . I guess my subconscious has taken an interest in it. :D
We should CC this thread to all of the publishing houses. Although the self-published wouldn't get the memo.
We should. Maybe the headline "instantly sell more books by avoiding all of this" will entice them? :D
I know authors who are very much aware of this trope and choose to include it on purpose *shrug*
Michelle wrote: "Anna wrote: "I read a book from 1993 this week that had it. 1993!Burning Bright: "Lioe released the breath she hadn’t realized she’d been holding, and craned her head to look out the viewport ..."
I hadn't realized that it was used that long ago!"
It's actually been around since Chaucer's time...
Whan that Aprille with his shoures soote,
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licóur
Of which vertú engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
Expired hath without awareneth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge at play
Hath celebrated a new cliche
Adrian wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Anna wrote: "I read a book from 1993 this week that had it. 1993!Burning Bright: "Lioe released the breath she hadn’t realized she’d been holding, and craned her head to look out..."
Lol! Thanks, Adrian!
My leasf favourite cliche in any form, book, film, tv series is when an innocent person is wrongly accused of something heinous and has to prove their innocence. I cannot read or watch anything with that plot line
Adrian wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Anna wrote: "I read a book from 1993 this week that had it. 1993!Burning Bright: "Lioe released the breath she hadn’t realized she’d been holding, and craned her head to look out..."
Thanks for this important historical addition to our dataset!
Raven wrote: "My leasf favourite cliche in any form, book, film, tv series is when an innocent person is wrongly accused of something heinous and has to prove their innocence. I cannot read or watch anything wit..."It is a hackneyed trope but for a reason, I suppose. Can you imagine the horror of being wrongly accused of a serious crime you didn't commit? Especially the murder of a loved one - it's bad enough that the loved one is dead, but to be accused of doing it? It's unthinkably horrific.
The Shawshank Redemption is a good example of this (even though it was pretty obvious what was happening the whole time).
Alfred Hitchcock was apparently fascinated by this. “The Wrong Man”, others.
Gah! I was almost in the clear at 97% through the book, and he just released that darned breath he didn't realize he was holding.
Meredith wrote: "So close!"I know 😆
I think my predilection for nonfiction means that I almost never have to deal with the unknown held breath. 😁
Becky wrote: "I think my predilection for nonfiction means that I almost never have to deal with the unknown held breath. 😁"Nonfiction?
Are you spending time on this site as a participant-observer anthropologist?
Adrian wrote: "Becky wrote: "I think my predilection for nonfiction means that I almost never have to deal with the unknown held breath. 😁"Nonfiction?
Are you spending time on this site as a participant-observer anthropologist?"
This site… the world… life. Pretty much. 🤣
I do read SF&F too, along with a lot of other stuff, but as I am currently listening to a Carl Sagan nonfiction (The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark), the thought just occurred to me that I never hear that trope there, so I made the comment. Random thought fun times!
Carl Sagan was great. This book looks interesting! I take, that in it, he has not yet mentioned releasing a breath he didn't realise he was holding? :D
I have all (I think) of Carl's books, except his novel, ironically.
Contact was a SFFBC BOTM, so there's a potential reason to check it out.From Shadow and Bone--it's YA, so maybe finding our recurrent favorite is easy mode. It gets a halfhearted thumbs-up for a minor variation: "He turned his attention back to the colonel and I realized that I had been holding my breath."
Kaladin wrote: "Carl Sagan was great. This book looks interesting! I take, that in it, he has not yet mentioned releasing a breath he didn't realise he was holding? :D"You would be correct! Not a single held breath of known or unknown variety!
Becky wrote: "Kaladin wrote: "Carl Sagan was great. This book looks interesting! I take, that in it, he has not yet mentioned releasing a breath he didn't realise he was holding? :D"You would be correct! Not a..."
Say no more! Ordering this book as I type. 😂
Boys in the Valley - “Andrew releases a held breath.”But was he aware he was holding it?? We need to know!
The 'Deus Ex Machina' get out of jail free card trick. The MC is about to meet his death when, suddenly, the author makes him use some device or weapon that he has never revealed to the readers before in his book. Example: in a sci-fi novel, the readers discover that the MC's ship is equipped with a teleportation device, and this just in time to save the MC. One infamous actual example: David Weber's heroine in his 'Honor Harrington Series' keep showing new weapons and abilities at the most opportune moment, or, in the same series, the friendly ship is surrounded by a large enemy fleet when, suddenly, one of the good girls pushes a button that makes all the enemy ships explode, with that good girl then simply saying 'oops' (I am not making that up).
The "black box" time machine. The protagonist steps into a shimmering circle of light/cubicle/contraption/or takes a drug and they are transported in time. Being a fan of hard science fiction, I prefer time travel stories where some thought has been given to the mechanism of time travel.
Michel wrote: "The 'Deus Ex Machina' get out of jail free card trick. The MC is about to meet his death when, suddenly, the author makes him use some device or weapon that he has never revealed to the readers bef..."I'm seeing this a lot in Ready Player One. The MC just happens to have the right 1980s property memorized, or has mastered the right video game, has learned a useful skill (view spoiler), has an item in his inventory that will be useful to his current situation, etc. It's happened so often it's absurd and I just have to laugh at it.
It happens a lot in serialized online fiction too.
Beth wrote: "I'm seeing this a lot in Ready Player One. The MC just happens to have the right 1980s property memorized, or has mastered the right video game, has learned a useful skill (view spoiler), has an item in his inventory that will be useful to his current situation, etc. It's happened so often it's absurd and I just have to laugh at it."I forgave all that because I felt it was adequately explained - he had read and watched obsessively all of Halliday's favourites and was able to go back and relearn/practice in a couple of spots. I thought the attention to miniscule detail was pretty stunning.
For me RPO is by some distance the best sci-fi book written since the 70s, but we're all different.
Adrian wrote: "Beth wrote: "I'm seeing this a lot in Ready Player One. The MC just happens to have the right 1980s property memorized, or has mastered the right video game, has learned a useful skill (view spoile..."Its been a minute since Ive read this book. so forgive me if im incorrect but didnt the various characters also all have different areas of expertise? I know they all knew a lot about Halliday but didnt they also focus on different aspects of his life? Because I remember that being part of why I was able to forgive the plot convenience of their seemingly endless amount of knowledge because it often required a group effort.
I do agree though that when a character is immensely overpowered or over knowledgeable it kind of sucks you out of the story (its part of why ive never been able to enjoy Superman as a character)
Might it depend on how characters are set up in a novel? If their expertise is slowly and unobtrusively exposed to the reader, then the protagonist later using that knowledge might feel more natural. I personally also dislike it if a character **suddenly** has the obscure knowledge/correct answer/right tool for the situation to hand...
One of the worst was something I used to encounter mainly in kid's fiction. Don't remember seeing it in adult fiction...Suddenly Roger had a hunch...
And I'm not talking about the onset of scoliosis.
Here's one I just bumped up against: A society outcast, though well known to everyone, turns out to be the long-lost parent of the MC. This happened in a book I read recently and I groaned out loud when the "neighborhood crazy lady" turned out to be the missing-presumed-dead mom. Like, I should have guessed this much sooner!
Sarah wrote: "That sounds very groan-worthy!"this book had just about every cliche/trope I can think of: Once We Were Kings. I was groaning pretty much the whole way through it and only soldiered on to see what the next one was that the author would fit into the book.
I wrote a review for it and the author must have complained about my review because it was shortly removed after he came back trying to defend it and attacking me. I even gave it a three star for imagination (I meant for putting the whole kitchen into it plus excessive use of deus ex machinca (don't know if I spelled this right) and parental reveals.
CBRetriever wrote: "I wrote a review for it and the author must have complained about my review because it was shortly removed after he came back trying to defend it and attacking me."Wow - that says a lot about the author! It looks like you're not the only one saying that from the other reviews either.
I had a peek also. Someone savaged him with 1 star and bad review yet there's a lot of good reviews. But never argue with readers. Way to lose your authorial mystique.
My least favorite tropes/clichés in fantasy are The Chosen One and The Prophecy. But I like books where these tropes are thoroughly deconstructed, like the prophecy trope in Ted Williams' books, for example.Silvana wrote: "Little miss perfect assassin/warrior/sorceress/whathaveyou with angsty, annoying attitude. "
As for little miss perfect assassin/warrior/sorceress/whatever, I'm willing to put up with such a character, but under certain conditions.
First, her abilities have to be explainable. For example, Cirilla in The Witcher is indeed a "little miss perfect assassin-warrior-sorceress/", but that's due to years of training in Caer Morhen and unusual genes.
Secondly, she should behave appropriately, without any annoying attitude.
Thirdly, the plot shouldn't just be about her and her boyfriend. If the adventures of "Little Miss" are just one of the storylines, that's fine by me.
Cheryl wrote: "Villains in general, evil genius in particular. Tiring.
Political intrigue.
Then the two combined. If you're king, never never even *have* a vizier - they're *always* out to get rid of you and t..."
Actually, this trope is based on real events that sometimes happened in different countries in ancient times. The positions of kings/emperors/khans/kings were inherited, and the people who got them weren't always intellectually fit for the positions they held. So they really needed "viziers". And the intelligent people they hired for these positions really had a hard time serving the spoiled idiots.
Pete wrote: "That all aliens are inherently evil and intent upon destroying mankind. (Avatar the only exception I can think of - although man was the alien if viewed in the correct context, so yeah, all aliens ..."
In my opinion, this is the silliest of all sci-fi tropes. I mean, aliens in sci-fi often try to take over Earth (or Earth colonies), but why would they do that?
Humans are unlikely to need aliens as slaves. A society capable of building spaceships and travelling between the stars is unlikely to need human muscle power.
Minerals are also unlikely to be needed by aliens. I doubt that such an advanced society would use primitive machines that run on petrol. As for gems and metals, there are probably plenty of uninhabited planets in space where they can be mined easily.
Theoretically, aliens might need Earth as a military base. Suppose two star empires are at war with each other, and one of them really needs a base in the solar system. But in that case, they could easily build such a base on Mars. Why waste time going to war with Earth?
There's only one real reason why aliens would want to invade Earth. Suppose their home planet died or became uninhabitable, and the conditions on Earth - gravity, air and all that stuff - are a perfect match for their home planet. I can't think of any other reason for evil aliens to invade.
Ambereyes wrote: "My least favorite tropes/clichés in fantasy are The Chosen One and The Prophecy. But I like books where these tropes are thoroughly deconstructed, like the prophecy trope in Ted Williams' books, fo..."food
"The only favor the aliens do for Clint Beecham when they abduct him is give him a shirt that says DO NOT EAT on it in their language. He’s told that as a physicist, he is to be reserved, along with five other scientists, for a mysterious purpose. "
But fifty thousand other humans on board the interstellar scout ship are scheduled to be butchered and frozen, a food supply for the long journey to the alien homeworld. Clint and the other Reserves can’t stand by and let that happen.
I doubt very much that aliens could really feed on humans or Earth animals. Beings from different planets would be too different on a biochemical level to digest each other and derive energy from such food. It would be like a human trying to digest a piece of plastic or paper.The same goes for humans eating alien plants or animals. It happens a lot in science fiction, but I consider it a liberty of the authors. After all, they're not writing textbooks, they're just writing fiction.
I think this tradition of making up stories about evil aliens coming to Earth and eating people goes back to H.G. Wells and his stories about Martian bloodsuckers. But he lived in the 19th century, so he probably didn't know much about blood types and things like this.
Also, I read in an article - I can't remember the author or the title - that this book was just a parody of European colonialism. I don't know if that's true, but I doubt very much that if Martians really did exist, their blood types would match those of humans.
However, I've come up with another reason why aliens might invade Earth. They might have some evil ideology that instructs them to invade other planets and enslave or exterminate their populations. The problem is that such space Nazis might themselves be exterminated by other civilisations before they even reach Earth.
Evil AIEvil Aliens
token characters (gender, minority, ethnicity...)
dumb science
I also forgot about the love triangles. It's really tired and generally they're best left for romance books.But there's something worse than a love triangle. It is the deadly love triangle. Well, it's a situation in a book where the author first creates a love triangle and then doesn't know what to do with it. And then, to resolve the situation he created, he kills one of the characters, and the girl (or guy) stays with the character who survived.
MCs whose character development revolves around their bloodlines/"noble" or "royal" heritage or conversely, the lack of it. Especially if the author has to tell us every other paragraph that the MC is a noble or a bastard or a peasant or whatever. The Legend of Drizzt is maybe the only series I can give a pass to on this because of Drizzt's noble heritage and why he rejects it is one of the best developed aspects of the series (of what I've read so far), with the particular way his rejection exposes the vicious, backstabbing politics of Drow society. Also Drizzt has plenty of development outside of his noble heritage, with his life on the surface, that makes him an interesting character with his own motivations regardless. Legendborn tries to do something a little subversive with it, to the author's credit, but in doing so, really exposed (at least for me) the unfortunate limitations inherent in the trope and so even with what the author tried to do, it still didn't sit 100% OK with me (I also have not read the 2nd book, so I don't know if it gets better or worse).
Yes, there are a lot of those breaths that have been held, and then released. While I'm sure there is still a good point in some story where this would still work well, in most cases I would suggest my author clients think about or visualize the physical or emotional cause for the unconscious breath holding and release, and then come up with another physical reaction their character might have in response to that cause.
Ambereyes wrote: "I doubt very much that aliens could really feed on humans or Earth animals. Beings from different planets would be too different on a biochemical level to digest each other and derive energy from s..."read a book with the only reason earth was invaded was the aliens needed slaves to dig mines of material that was proving corrosive to machines. Humans didnt count if they died.
meanwhile the rest of earth was used for growing crops
seemed an ok idea
i dislike the idea of a detective/ soldier/ etc who constantly solves a problem yet the superior constantly treats them badly and disbelieves them . Honestly one plus would surely put them in the good books
Creed wrote: "Tara wrote: "Evil AIEvil Aliens
token characters (gender, minority, ethnicity...)
dumb science"
Dumb…science? I will have you know that science is not dumb and that I love it when a book or sci-..."
And I would have died at a very young age if it wasn't for a science called medicine. Good medicine once saved my life, literally.
Kateb wrote: "Ambereyes wrote: "I doubt very much that aliens could really feed on humans or Earth animals. Beings from different planets would be too different on a biochemical level to digest each other and de..."This author has come up with a good excuse for an alien invasion! Remember the title of this book?
Sillies! I am a scientist lolI was more referring to tropes like dumb scientist and science is wrong....
or just so lame that it defies belief
Ambereyes wrote: "Kateb wrote: "Ambereyes wrote: "I doubt very much that aliens could really feed on humans or Earth animals. Beings from different planets would be too different on a biochemical level to digest eac..."not sure of the title but it was written by Anne McCaffrey. The aliens needed slaves for dangerous mining, couldnt use robots. Also wanted to farm land so destroyed humans living on that land.
Kateb wrote: "Ambereyes wrote: "Kateb wrote: "Ambereyes wrote: "I doubt very much that aliens could really feed on humans or Earth animals. Beings from different planets would be too different on a biochemical l..."Thank you!
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Once We Were Kings (other topics)Ready Player One (other topics)
Boys in the Valley (other topics)
Shadow and Bone (other topics)
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Simon R. Green (other topics)Martin Walker (other topics)
Ken Liu (other topics)
Tad Williams (other topics)
Burning Bright: "Lioe released the breath she hadn’t realized she’d been holding, and craned her head to look out the viewport ..."
I hadn't realized that it was used that long ago!