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Least favorite tropes/cliches in sci-fi and fantasy?
It doesn't matter why we hate them. We do in fact hate them regardless of causes.
Just don’t let your hatred of certain tropes blind you to good stories that use tropes you hate. One of the most egregious tropes is the author writing themselves into their own story.
Yet Stephen King did this in the Dark Tower series to great effect. It made sense in the context of the interconnected story he was writing and he wrote himself as he really was when he first started writing.
I've sensed "trope" is no longer pejorative. To me, it was by definition bad. "Head hopping" is just omniscient done badly, for example.Romances now are all about tropes and some readers insist on certain ones. As a writer, I'd find that so limiting.
So I don't really respond to "liking" a trope. To me that all are least favorite. So, yeah, hating is trope is because it represents something done badly.
I get where you're coming from, but yeah the word Trope isn't really the negative that it used to be. It's become synonymous with literary or cinematic convention. From a certain perspective, all conventions are tropes. You may not find many star-crossed lovers or enemies-to-lovers story lines in science fiction but they're all over romance. But you won't find many chosen one or sage master in romance for that matter.
I personally don't think of trope in the negative, I think positive trope or negative trope depending on how it was used.
I think by arguing semantics, you’re missing the bigger picture - that certain tropes alienate or frustrate readers more than others. The discussion is delving into their miss-use because we’ve all come across one that ruins an otherwise interesting read.
Mod
let's keep this as a space for sharing!
Jeff wrote: "Tropes are the basis of our myths, which are our stories. They exist for a reason. They are a core part of our psyche."I agree with this part of Jeff's post. A trope is simply a tool and can be used well or poorly. In message 79, I said something not dissimilar:
"without tropes, "story" wouldn't exist.
We can certainly drag the tropes that drive us up a wall, though. :D"
In any case, imo "trope" and "bad writing" are not equivalent. Otherwise we'd have to say "all stories are bad."
I'm tempted to create a thread where we can talk about our favorite tropes. Because I know *I* have a few. :)
Beth wrote: "I'm tempted to create a thread where we can talk about our favorite tropes"Do it!
Anna wrote: "Beth wrote: "I'm tempted to create a thread where we can talk about our favorite tropes"Do it!"
You got it, boss!
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Jeff wrote: "I get where you're coming from, but yeah the word Trope isn't really the negative that it used to be. It's become synonymous with literary or cinematic convention. From a certain perspective, all..."
It's an old term, neutral in origin, even if bad examples are more conspicuous by their nature.
But we have least favorite foods, even if food is a neutral term.
Jeff wrote: "It isn't about the tropes, its about how they're used. Also, be wary of the subverted trope that is subverted just for the sake of being edgy.Tropes are the basis of our myths, which are our stor..."
Excellent point. In this thread, the Chosen One trope has had a pretty thorough bashing, but I just got done reading the Brair King and the book makes excellent use of that trope almost to the point of it not being noticeable. How something is used makes a huge difference to how it is viewed.
Mary wrote: "Jeff wrote: "I get where you're coming from, but yeah the word Trope isn't really the negative that it used to be. It's become synonymous with literary or cinematic convention. From a certain per..."
Oh no not Onions again.
I'm absolutely delighted when, once in a blue moon, I come across a trope I wholeheartedly detest and then realize it's been used in a way that works and enriches the story.Doesn't happen often - the author has to jump through some serious hoops and bend over backwards to make love triangles, miscommunication or "not like other girls" work for me - but when it does, it's delicious.
I am probably in the minority, but I think the Harry Potter series and the Carry On series by Rainbow Rowell use the chosen one trope very effectively, but yes, in most instances it's too vague to really be effective.
I just thought of another one as Kirsi and Michelle talked about animal sidekicks in the favorite tropes thread: death of an animal, or an animal companion. It so often feels like a cheap way to yank at the reader's heartstrings, and it really does not sit well with people who have ever seen animals at first hand who suffered or died due to human cruelty.Maybe not as common in SFF as some other types of fiction, admittedly.
Oh, me too, Beth. I have to skip over those scenes if I come across them. Those and scenes dealing with suicide. I can't handle either one anymore!
I haven’t run across too many of those “death of a companion animal” scenes, but I did encounter one a few years ago that turned me off an author I’d been following, probably for good. It did feel cheaply manipulative and it infuriated me. (Not in our genre.)
Oh yes, I hate that! With a passion! Some things you just don't do. Kill off an animal companion with cruelty and my rating goes down by one star immediately and I'll never trust that author ever again.
Kirsi wrote: "Oh yes, I hate that! With a passion! Some things you just don't do. Kill off an animal companion with cruelty and my rating goes down by one star immediately and I'll never trust that author ever a..."but what if they go down as a hero? Martin Walker's Bruno Chief of Police series had the main character's basset hound die saving his owner and it was handled very well as was the introduction of a new puppy.
and in Ken Liu's Dandelion Dynasty series Book 2, one of the main characters offed his animal companion to prove to his followers that he would do anything to win (this one bothered me a lot)
The difference is in the implementation of the trope, right? In the first example, we have the dog losing its life out of loyalty, or protection, etc. In the second, the animal companion dies to make a point in an argument.
I'd say it depends very much on the execution. Like any trope, really. Death happens and I can accept the death of animal companions as long it serves a clear purpose and is handled tastefully. If not, and especially if there's cruelty and abuse involved, the author lands on my shit list immediately.Continuing the Dandelion dynasty just moved wayyyy down my list of priorities.
true and I almost cried for the first one, but I was shocked at the second one.
I hate stories of characters degenerating morally.Also, I hate sequels that undermine the happy ending of the last book. I have read a trilogy where my response to the last book is HA! -- because I can't believe this happy ending will last after what happened to the last two.
I am not sure how much of a trope this is, but there is a current trend in the cozy mystery set that I am starting to wonder at. Why do we need magic/witches in what would otherwise just be a fairly straight-up cozy mystery?
I finally came across this trope:“The vet let out a long-held breath, as if she’d forgotten how to breathe”!!! Found in Fenris and Mott, by Greg Van Eekhout, which is otherwise a delightful Middle Grade fantasy incorporating Norse Mythology.
Already in chapter 2 of The Eye of the World and "Rand let out a breath he had not realized he had been holding." You guys ruined one of my favourite series!Joking; the rest is still good.
David wrote: "Already in chapter 2 of The Eye of the World and "Rand let out a breath he had not realized he had been holding." You guys ruined one of my favourite series!Joking; the rest is stil..."
Sorry!
Have we reached the point where pointing out characters who didn't know they were holding their breath is the new trope?
Perhaps we should look for characters who have held a breath they didn't realize they had taken?
Harold breathed in... he breathed out.Harold breathed in... he breathed out.
Harold breathed in... he breathed out.
"Now cough," said the doctor.
DivaDiane wrote: "I finally came across this trope:“The vet let out a long-held breath, as if she’d forgotten how to breathe”!!! Found in Fenris and Mott, by Greg Van Eekhout, which is otherwise a delightful Middl..."
I decided I would have to read that one. I love twisty myths added to reality
Adrian wrote: "Harold breathed in... he breathed out.Harold breathed in... he breathed out.
Harold breathed in... he breathed out.
"Now cough," said the doctor."
The book is the Worst things about Basic Training. LOL
"He gave them his best [something something] smile."I always imagine the person in question with sweat on their forehead and a really strained, creepy smile on their face. And some authors use this line so often you can't help but think of the character as the Joker from Batman. Looking at you, Simon R. Green.
Hans wrote: ""He gave them his best [something something] smile."I always imagine the person in question with sweat on their forehead and a really strained, creepy smile on their face. And some authors use th..."
He does say that a lot in his books!!
Michelle wrote: "He does say that a lot in his books!!"But to be fair, that's only one of the catchphrases he uses on repeat in his books and almost throughout all of his series. It's just the one that stands out the most because other authors are guilty of using it rather often, too. :)
Another trope I've been noticing and find mildly annoying: Character who vows never to marry and (of course) never to have children. Never! It's a vow (oath, etc.)! And then we know how that turns out....
It has turned up in The Moon and the Sun.
Mod
BuT wHeN yOu MeEt ThE rIgHt PaRtEnEr...
It's almost a spoiler when they say that, it's so predictable.
Even in a BOTM. It really is everywhere! (Neom, in this case.)"Goodbye."
The robot left. Mariam let out a breath of air she hadn't realised she was holding."
Michelle and Hans' discussion in messages 192 and 193 feels more like it's about authorial tics or quirks than tropes. This isn't an attempt to be the thread monitor, but thinking it might be fun to start a new thread about that specifically - authors using specific character types, or phrases, or whatever, to the point it becomes a recognizable signature.
Beth wrote: "Even in a BOTM. It really is everywhere! (Neom, in this case.)"Goodbye."
The robot left. Mariam let out a breath of air she hadn't realised she was holding."
Michelle and Hans' discussion in mes..."
It's in one of the June re-reads, too! I started reading The Bone Shard Daughter, and early on, one of the characters lets out a breath they didn't realize they were holding. (I don't have the exact quote, since I'm listening to the audiobook.) I think it stood out especially because of this thread. :-)
Kaia wrote: "Beth wrote: "Even in a BOTM. It really is everywhere! (Neom, in this case.)..."It's in one of the June re-reads, too! ..."
"I let out the breath I hadn't known I'd been holding."
I *just* read this part and came here to report in, but Kaia beat me to it! 😂
Meredith wrote:"I let out the breath I hadn't known I'd been holding."
I *just* read this part and came here to report in, but Kaia beat me to it! 😂
What a funny coincidence, Meredith! 😄
It’s also in Remarkably Bright Creatures. I don’t know what page because I listened to the audiobook. Due to this discussion every time I hear or read about “letting out the breath..” it makes me giggle 🤭
It practically glares out of the page like it's a neon sign 😖
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Once We Were Kings (other topics)Ready Player One (other topics)
Boys in the Valley (other topics)
Shadow and Bone (other topics)
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Simon R. Green (other topics)Martin Walker (other topics)
Ken Liu (other topics)
Tad Williams (other topics)
Tropes are the basis of our myths, which are our stories. They exist for a reason. They are a core part of our psyche.
The reason you hate a certain trope is because you "had a bad experience." It probably started with one book that egregiously abused the trope. Either through poor writing, ham-handed use, or both.
The slippery slope comes when you read another piece of drivel that reinforces the bad experience. And it isn't even about the whole package. You may love a book, but hate the lover's triangle at its core because you just read an awful lover's triangle.
I try to hop around between genres and styles. It's not foolproof, but I've never found a trope that ruined my enjoyment of a book.
The other fun thing about tropes is you may hate it in one book, but in another setting or style, it makes perfect sense. Femme fatale is not something you can just drop into any book, but if you're going for noire or action/adventure it makes perfect sense.