Our Shared Shelf discussion
Feb—The Color Purple (2016)
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Believing in God While as a Rape and Incest Victim
As John Lennon said, God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
From what i see so far...her faith in God helps her get through the revolting things her father did to her.
She considers God he refuge. She doesn't blame him/her for the things that men did to her, which is ok.
I think this is a timely post, Beatrice. The way I'm reading it, and I may well be off the mark here, is that as well as being merely an epistolary device (Dear God) it very much seems to speak of a kind of plea ("Dear God"), expressed in desperation/frustration/disbelief at the things that are happening to her - this is evident from the first entry when we realise that she is suffering sexual abuse at the hands of her father. Perhaps this marks Celie's spiritual awakening, where she now feels ready to question (not with literal questions) the things that life brings. And if God is the creator of all things, then she seems to be directing those questions at God.
I think that it's easier for her to believe that all the bad things that are happening to her has some kind of spiritual sense or that it's God's plan that accepting that your own father is evil and wants to hurt you, and the letters give her some relieve, someone to talk to.
Well, believing in a superior deity has nothing to do if your life is pure happness or pure misery. Maybe she believes in God because she see him as some sort of hope that things will be better in the future, I don't know.
I didn't necessarily take it that she was putting any real emphasis on God as much as prayer. I think it was more important for her to find comfort in having someone to reach out to than in having "faith" or belief in God as a deity.
Bad things happen to everyone, that's called LIFE. Believing in God gives a sense of purpose to our lives, gives a reason why these things may happen, gives a rules to live by, gives us comfort in times of difficulties and gives us joy in times of happiness. As a Baha'i, a member of the Baha'i Faith, we are told to lean on God, depend on God, devote ourselves to God, continually be in prayer with God, that He will help us, support us, give us strength in bad times. bahai.org
It was an interesting read, as an atheist. I never really read her "Dear God" as being in any way religious, especially later in the book when she talks about how little she relates to the concept. I loved Shug's approach - god is in the little things. If I were to be religious, that appeals to me the most. But I do agree that God gives people something to believe in and I would never hold that against someone, especially a trauma victim, although I think "everything happens for a reason" can be a brutal thing to think/say when someone has gone through all that.
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I feel similarly. There are those who lose faith when bad things happen and those who cling to it more fiercely as a result. Neither approach is better than the other. People's ways of coping with tragedy and trauma are as varied as people themselves.
I also want to echo Eolith's comment above: Given the time and place, Celie's belief in God is probably automatic, and not the kind of thing it would occur to her to question.
I think religion is important to the book, but it's also interesting to consider the content of the letters versus the fact that they are addressed to God. There aren't many points where the letters must necessarily be addressed to God, they could be addressed to anyone. I kind of just see them as diary entries that anyone, regardless of religious affiliation, might write. But Celie feels so alone when these letters start that addressing them to God may make her feel as though she's connected with a higher power or a greater purpose, rather than just writing to an inanimate object à la "Dear Diary"
I think, also, you need to see it as a book of its time. That turning to 'God' would have been taught as the norm. It's very hard to break out of beliefs set down in childhood. Additionally, sexual abuse brings with it a whole gamut of faulty/distorted thinking, feeling and believing that are a result of the trauma. You cannot expect its victims, fictional or otherwise, to respond as someone who values themselves and put responsibility onto the perpetrators. It would be unthinkable for a child to risk blaming a god she relied on and hoped for protection. That's the power of magical thinking. Plus, she was told by her step-father not to tell anyone, thus telling 'God' was an act of rebellion. If you read Alice Walker's other works you don't find her sympathetic to religion.
I think she sees God as her listener, her salvation. That writing to him helps her maintain her sanity, with all the bad things happening to her..
Well, at first I would say that Celie believes in God because she's still an innocent kid. Plus, God is the only thing sh can really rely on in her miserable life. God, to her, symbolises hope. I think that if she still keeps writing to God it's because deep inside her she still has hope. Writing is the only thing that makes us really exist. She doesn't have much friends and is very often used as an objet. But in her letter she turns into a real human being. It's the only way for her to be. There, she can express her own feelings and she knows that God will always listen to her.
Salome wrote: "Well, at first I would say that Celie believes in God because she's still an innocent kid. Plus, God is the only thing sh can really rely on in her miserable life. God, to her, symbolises hope. I t..."I like what you've written here. God definitely encompasses hope and that's exactly what Celie needs in her life. With God she does not feel alone. With God by her side she can take each day as it comes. God is not someone you simply turn to when things are happy and good. Sometimes it's these hard trials when you need God the most.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016...
I have faith in something. Someday this "country" will be buried under rubble.
I have faith in something. Someday this "country" will be buried under rubble.
Mod
I have faith in something. Someday this "country" will be buried under rubble."
Oh, but this country is already sort of buried under rubble, don't you think so? What I hope is for the country to be humble and honest enough to get rid of the rubble. :)
Stephanie wrote: "As somebody who was molested, grew up in an emotionally abusive home, and sexually assaulted by two different boyfriends, I can tell you that my relationship with God is what helped me not to turn ..."I am also very close to someone who was molested for years by her stepfather WHO WAS RELIGIOUS but she still believes in G-d. This is because G-d gave us free will, and sadly some people use it to do bad. A religious person who molests isn't really religious, they just play the part but they are evil. That is why I don't see this as a paradox at all, but the opposite. If someone who was raped can know that not all religious people are bad just because one person is, and not all secular people are bad just because there are also rapists who are secular, then why do people reject a group because one person did wrong? Why reject G-d just because someone didn't listen to his rules (in all religions, and secular ethics for that matter, rape and incest is wrong)?
Keeping the faith makes one feel stronger knowing you aren't alone in your pain. There is justice in the end even if it takes years to come.
It strikes me that both her father and her so-called God should be charged under child protection law. I've heard the whole free will argument over and over but it doesn't stand up against other contrasting sermons about raising our children as God raises his children. Unless you read Alice Walker, and you witness a child raped and her so-called Father in heaven absent and negligent as he ignores her plight. I don't raise my children his way. That's not love. If you all saw your daughter being raped, would you stand by and do nothing because of the free will of the rapist? If you did you'd be complicit in his crime.
That's why they had to invent the Devil.
So, in conclusion: God loves you. God gives you free will. If something bad happens is because of the Devil or it's your fault. And God could do something, but you know, just not today.
Christianism is the paradigm of incoherence. But religious people don't look for coherence so no problem.
So, in conclusion: God loves you. God gives you free will. If something bad happens is because of the Devil or it's your fault. And God could do something, but you know, just not today.
Christianism is the paradigm of incoherence. But religious people don't look for coherence so no problem.
She says at one point of the book (when her mother asks who gets her pregnant), "She ast me bout the first one Whose it is? I say God's. I don't know no other man or what else to say."
I think she grew up with him/her/it and was too young at the beginning of the book to start questioning the faith - but in the end, she changes the way she thinks about God. The book covers something like forty years or more. When she began to write, I think the only person she can turn to is God, because, like she said, she didn't know anyone else who can listen to her at the time.
For the record, I'm an agnostic, but I do see how someone wants to be religious. They were taught to be so, and wish to remain within that context of thinking.Anyway, if there was a God, I'd like to have a serious discussion about all the crap that said god puts people through. We can discuss about his/her existence again, when child abuse, child molesting, child labour, etc. is gone forever. No child has done anything to deserve such atrocities, and to have a godly figure give green light to it makes the whole concept of a god so ridiculous to me that I can't even. A god who allows all that to happen is sick. Sorry. No child should suffer like that.
Lesley-Anne wrote: "It strikes me that both her father and her so-called God should be charged under child protection law. I've heard the whole free will argument over and over but it doesn't stand up against other co..."Girl, I feel ya.
Keep reading a bit further she evolves
Hello everyone, Before i say anything else, I'm an atheist. And before, when I was younger, I as genuinely wondering about why people believe in God and I was quite intolerant about it, I wouldn't understand, why people would worshiping God when horrible things are happening all around them. And I ask people I know who believes in God, why they're having such a faith when there is so much terrible things happening in both their lives and the World in general.
The replied to me that for them, God isn't pulling any string up there and directing what's happening in the world. He is just witnessing and has nothing to say or do about it, he can't stop things or make them better.
I don't know if Celie is mature enough to have that sort of thought but maybe she is... I think, as some of you said, that she is still a kid... maybe she is not mature or old enough to question her faith, when you have been raised to do something or to believe in something, I think you just do, without really thinking.
I also agree with the idea that she need hope, she need to hold onto something to keep being strong and to keep going through her life.
I don't think Celie's religious belief or speaking to God for comfort in her misery should be thought of as a sign of youth or immaturity. I don't know if Celie will always believe in God, or if her faith will alter or ebb as she grows and changes. Maybe she is caught up in the societal time period, maybe later she will be angry at him, maybe her faith will increase. I don't know.
But Celie is trapped in a terrible, terrible situation, and as many people have said she is trying to do what she can to help herself. She doesn't have many other people to help her. I trust her to try to help herself, at least.
I'm really enjoying this thread. My first thought was completely different. I thought she was writing to God because she felt forgotten. My thinking was if God was omnipresent he/she/it would know what Celie was going through and so there would be no need for her to explain everything to God. Therefore, I saw her letters as a reminder to God she was still here. I must admit my knowledge around different religions is limited but this was my first impression. I've really enjoyed reading others perspective and like the idea of the letter being a way of communicating to someone when she felt she couldn't turn to anyone else.
If I remember the novel correctly, Celie does have some reservations when it comes to God? I'm not that far in to the book (this is my second reading), but I seem to recall that she does not always find God to be a perfect source.My (danish) copy of the book sets out with the lines "Du må hellere lade være med at sige det til andre end Gud. Det ville slå din mor ihjel." (You'd better not tell anyone but God. It would kill your mother.)
Maybe she is just (being a kid and not the brightest of kids) taking this statement fairly litterally. She writes to God, since he is the only one she is allowed to tell about the harm that is done towards her. God is the safe space she has been pointed towards, the only one she can share her expirienced with, without risking harming her mother.
I think that it is likely that Celie has been taught that it is only your faith in God that keeps you from going to hell, this makes it scary to question anything about your religion. Nobody wants to go to hell. This fear made it hard in her time and still makes it hard today to bring about much needed change such as gender equality where it is desperately needed in the Mideast and Africa...and human rights in general everywhere.
John wrote: "I think that it is likely that Celie has been taught that it is only your faith in God that keeps you from going to hell, this makes it scary to question anything about your religion. Nobody wants ..."Maybe. I was brought up in the Christian religion, but can't recall ever having believed in any of the teachings. They've always sounded like fairytales to me. (No offence meant, but just another perspective on this topic.)
Aglaea wrote: "John wrote: "I think that it is likely that Celie has been taught that it is only your faith in God that keeps you from going to hell, this makes it scary to question anything about your religion. ..."
I recall when I was like 3 or 4 years old and my mom told me to pray and so on and I did, but I was left-handed so I used the left hand to cross myself, and she was like: no! You can't use that one! I guess that's when I started to think that something was wrong with what she was asking me to do hahaha.
I recall when I was like 3 or 4 years old and my mom told me to pray and so on and I did, but I was left-handed so I used the left hand to cross myself, and she was like: no! You can't use that one! I guess that's when I started to think that something was wrong with what she was asking me to do hahaha.
I replaced the dogmatic religion that I was raised with for yoga meditation when I reached high school. Not a likely option for Celie. The fear of god can run deep. There was a song lyric of "Chicago"...."I swear there ain't no heaven, but I pray there ain't no hell, but I'll never know by livin, only by die-in will tell..."
John wrote: "I replaced the dogmatic religion that I was raised with for yoga meditation when I reached high school. Not a likely option for Celie. The fear of god can run deep. There was a song lyric of "Chica..."True about the fear. I just find it intriguing how we can think so differently on religious topics, because even when I was told there was a hell and I'd be going there if I sinned and yadayada, it still never occurred to me that it was actually real. I didn't take it seriously at all nor did I ever believe what was fed to me, but I walked my own path with my own mind. It seems so odd to me that someone, who questions their faith, does so out of a perspective of having possibly believed but not being sure. I tried to make myself believe, but didn't succeed, which is quite a different situation, from the opposite direction if that makes sense?
Aglaea, sounds like you have a lot of common sense...that's cool!
I think the letters are addressed to God not in spite of what she has gone through, but BECAUSE of what she has gone through. The first line of the book is "You better not never tell nobody but God. It'd kill your mammy."
So, since she has no one else to turn to, and since God knows everything anyway, he is the only place she can turn, especially at the beginning. Later on Shug is a great support to her, and then she begins writing to her sister instead of God. I think that is a powerful statement about the necessity of community and support systems.
Henriette wrote: "If I remember the novel correctly, Celie does have some reservations when it comes to God? I'm not that far in to the book (this is my second reading), but I seem to recall that she does not always..."Yes! I agree! I think we might be looking into the "God thing" a bit too much. She is writing to God because she has been told she can't tell anyone else
Well, by the time she was raped by her father, and all that things like getting a husband and support the kids in the house, Celie was probably too young to understand how problematic her relationship with her father was. She had God and the Bible as a escape, as a form to explain the world she lived in, the form se was raised and why people around her behaved like that. If she was born in an hostil ambient and never got an sufficient education besides domestic house work, that's the normal day by day to Celie. God was an excuse to the times she suffered, but she didn't know why exaclty she does. I understand her line of thought (I'm on page 62)
I think people turn to god because they want to think that what they're going through has some meaning, such as, "God is using this for some greater purpose. Somewhere, on the flip side of this, god is able to make something good happen because of what is happening to me," or, "God is using this to make me stronger. He/she is testing me or molding me." There is so much that can be said about this. People find comfort in thinking there is a much larger plan for them as an individual and the universe as a whole. The idea that there is no greater purpose to the suffering we see can be discouraging to some. At the same time, many people use god as a crutch, using the idea that a higher power is in control to avoid responsibility. I've been on both sides of the fence. I believe that taking responsibility for myself and refusing to see the "bright side" of rape and abuse motivates me to work towards making the world a better place. When I deconverted, it was a painful experience. I am happy that I did it, but I can sympathize with those who don't want to let go of their security blanket. It's a tough world out there.
Her belief in god is how she survives the incest. I believe it allows her to have two radically different understandings of the world and her ability to hold onto them both ultimately mitigates the dissonance that would likely come from being both deeply spiritual and profoundly abused.
Beatrice Marie wrote: "I have a hard time with Cellie's letters to God. How can you believe in God when your father's raped you not once, but twice? At first I thought this was a weakness in Walker's writing but perhaps ..."I agree and had no idea how religion would be a theme of the book. I actually found some of the discussion of religion in the book interesting and insightful. It makes sense that she wouldn't abandon God completely but I love how she questioned it and made it consistent with her character.
She is alone, miserable and abused by her own "father". I think she just wants to reach out to someone regardless if that someone is god or a real person. When we meet her she is so young, so innocent. I don't think she understands why is this happening to her so writing those letters is a way to express herself and seak comfort.
Beatrice Marie wrote: "I have a hard time with Cellie's letters to God. How can you believe in God when your father's raped you not once, but twice? At first I thought this was a weakness in Walker's writing but perhaps ..."Alice Walker started the womanism movement, dedicated to creating a women's movement specifically catering to women of color. One of the integral parts of womanism is this acceptance that faith, religion, and God are very often cornerstones in the lives of women of color. Even just reading Wikipedia articles about womanism and Alice Walker might help alleviate some confusion regarding Walker's portrayal of abuse AND a deep belief in a higher power. Thanks for sharing!
I hardly think Wilipedia is the place to go to for answers!
Lesley-Anne wrote: "I hardly think Wilipedia is the place to go to for answers!"I disagree. If there are footnotes with sources listed, they are the very same sources that academics use. Depending on topic, of course, but generally speaking.
Really, I don't see how Cecil held it together. Am I the only one feeling this way?
Aglaea wrote: "Lesley-Anne wrote: "I hardly think Wilipedia is the place to go to for answers!"I disagree. If there are footnotes with sources listed, they are the very same sources that academics use. Dependin..."
Academics DON'T use Wikipedia. In fact, students are warned NEVER to reference Wikipedia in their academic work.
I think I understand the original question in this thread to be a personal question, a personal reaction and curious horror to Celie's innocent faith in response to her terrible circumstances. I think the great thing about literature is that no matter the author's intent, what their writing evokes within us emotionally comes down to our own beliefs, values and experiences. I don't believe in god at all, but as a humanist I can relate to Celie's seeking solace and strength in her faith, without a faith of my own, as being comfort and strength seeking; I can also admire the edification that believers get out of Celie's letters, while it evokes in me a reaction against the so-called Father God teaching that I have rejected. Alice is a genius, is she not?
Lesley-Anne wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Lesley-Anne wrote: "I hardly think Wilipedia is the place to go to for answers!"
I disagree. If there are footnotes with sources listed, they are the very same sources that academic..."
I think she said that you can search information and it could be valid because the sources might be reliable, not reference it.
I disagree. If there are footnotes with sources listed, they are the very same sources that academic..."
I think she said that you can search information and it could be valid because the sources might be reliable, not reference it.
Lesley-Anne wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Lesley-Anne wrote: "I hardly think Wilipedia is the place to go to for answers!"I disagree. If there are footnotes with sources listed, they are the very same sources that academic..."
Hrm lol. I'm an academic and I use Wikipedia. There are two scenarios, one in which you skim through, check sources cited, and determine whether they have value or not, sort of like a fast track to the nutshell version or a starting point for continued research. The other is where you cite Wikipedia, which I don't believe I've advocated in any way. No need to school me in that tone, thanks.
Aglaea wrote: "Lesley-Anne wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Lesley-Anne wrote: "I hardly think Wilipedia is the place to go to for answers!"I disagree. If there are footnotes with sources listed, they are the very same s..."
My tone? I can see that I was flippant and I apologise for that. Though I don't deny I am appalled at Wikipedia being cited as academic. Academic, by definition, relies upon extensive and measurable reading, studying and researching referenced works by those who have proven themselves in their fields. The best scholars worked hard for their qualifications, they didn't skim the internet. What I love about fiction is that it is beyond academia; it can reach into our hearts and minds, touch our psyches, penetrate our being; enrich, emancipate, enlighten, entrench or exhaust our thinking, our believing, our doing. Many of the views on this thread I disagree with, even strongly react against, but it's an enlivened debate which I embrace.
I'll be curious to see how her relationship with God evolves over the rest of the book.