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HeForShe at Davos 2016
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Dada wrote: "Your "points" are entirely negated by the fact that by extending education and opportunities to all people, we greatly increase the entire human race's productivity. Furthermore, your praise of war..."War, my friend, has been a part of humanity since the beginning of time. To think that it is going to simply stop happening, is to dream of a utopia. I'm not praising it; I'm simply stating that it is part of life and you should recognize that.
On the point of education, people today (globally) have more opportunity for education that ever before and nothing has changed. The human race still faces the same problems that it always will.
Dada wrote: "Um, do you realize that people are being killed in many parts of the world for trying to go to school?Seeking an end to war is not just a "utopist" dream. It is a worthy goal."
The oldest human remains date back to approximately 160,000 years ago. The first known civilizations appeared in Mesopotamia approximately 8,000 years ago.
I'd say the accumulated data is against you, my friend. People haven't changed in all that time, and we never will.
Not saying that at all. You're going to extremes in your logic. I'm simply saying "choose your battles." There are some things you can't change. Fight for what you can change, deal with the rest.Redefining genders? Give me a break. That is the dumbest thing I've heard this month.
Dada wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Redefining genders? Give me a break. That is the dumbest thing I've heard this month."Why are you here, then?"
Again.. you're logic is extreme and focused on absolutism. There is progress that can be made. Just not the way she wants to do it. Her idea is not only ludicrous, it is embarrassing.
Also, I would skip to timestamp 55:20 if you would like to see another embarrassing moment. You'll see what happens when a Poly Sci major and an English major get asked an unexpected & unscripted question on a topic they don't truly understand. Elizabeth went straight into panic mode and we see that Emma (pains me to say this) is really nothing more than the celebrity weight for the campaign.
$20 says that if we put them against a Historian & a Sociologist for a debate.. they would get destroyed on nearly every question. But I might be wrong about that. Who knows?
Ryan wrote: "https://youtu.be/5aVtR2z7pJA
It would have been nice to see them bring in CEOs who hold opposing views. That is the discussion that should have happened. Not simply bringing in men who are already..."
Men and women are not opposite parts of anything. Not at all. Complement each other, maybe. You see opposition just because you want to see it.
War is a tool we use, not a natural need we have. War can be necessary, that doesn't mean that we will always need war. That's stupid.
It would have been nice to see them bring in CEOs who hold opposing views. That is the discussion that should have happened. Not simply bringing in men who are already..."
Men and women are not opposite parts of anything. Not at all. Complement each other, maybe. You see opposition just because you want to see it.
War is a tool we use, not a natural need we have. War can be necessary, that doesn't mean that we will always need war. That's stupid.
Example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016...
I would shoot people like these with pleasure. That doesn't mean I need to kill people as a natural thing.
I would shoot people like these with pleasure. That doesn't mean I need to kill people as a natural thing.
Adam wrote: "Ryan wrote: "https://youtu.be/5aVtR2z7pJAIt would have been nice to see them bring in CEOs who hold opposing views. That is the discussion that should have happened. Not simply bringing in men wh..."
Whether we "need" it, or not, it will always be a part of our culture and our history.
Men and women have some fundamental differences. That is not me imagining things. It is currently 2016 and there have been a massive amount of studies in regards to gender. One common thread in all findings is that differences exist. To think otherwise is delusional.
We do compliment each other, however. I'll give you that. But complimenting one another does not equate to being equal.
And if something's not equal, it's opposed. You need some logic classes! :P
Adam wrote: "Example: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016...I would shoot people like these with pleasure. That doesn't mean I need to kill people..."
You just contradicted your previous statement and gave credit to mine. There may not be a need for it but that lack of need will not prevent it from happening. Humans are an extremely violent species and there will always be war and violence.
Adam wrote: "And if something's not equal, it's opposed. You need some logic classes! :P"Clearly, you've never been married. The ongoing clash of opposing wills is very much real. Couples may not cause physical harm to one another, but everyone has felt the emotional strain of that opposition at one point or another.
Being with a member of the opposite sex in a long term relationship will also teach you that there are differences in the way we think & react.
Apples are the opposite of pears. Tables are the opposite of chairs. Windows are the opposite of doors. Stars are the opposite of planets. Protons are the opposite of electrons. ????
Things are different. That doesn't mean they are the opposite.
Things are different. That doesn't mean they are the opposite.
Ryan wrote: "Adam wrote: "And if something's not equal, it's opposed. You need some logic classes! :P"
Clearly, you've never been married. The ongoing clash of opposing wills is very much real. Couples may not..."
So you only argue with your wife? Lucky you! Because if you argue with anyone else that would be your opposite too, isn't it?
Clearly, you've never been married. The ongoing clash of opposing wills is very much real. Couples may not..."
So you only argue with your wife? Lucky you! Because if you argue with anyone else that would be your opposite too, isn't it?
Kodak wrote: "CEO's were there who have implemented equality within their businesses, and who are HeForShe champions. This was a press conference of sorts to do with parity reports, not to debate, which is wha..."
Yeah, you're right. I'm just saying that I would love to see an actual (civil) debate between the HeForShe team and those with opposing viewpoints.
Adam wrote: "Apples are the opposite of pears. Tables are the opposite of chairs. Windows are the opposite of doors. Stars are the opposite of planets. Protons are the opposite of electrons. ????Things are di..."
You really don't get it, do you? Men and women are different. Our differences are what causes opposition, yet also compliment one another. It's a teeter totter, man.
The point I was making is that it is absurd to attempt to remove those differences and think you can have balance. Balance exists because of our differences.
Ryan wrote: "Adam wrote: "Apples are the opposite of pears. Tables are the opposite of chairs. Windows are the opposite of doors. Stars are the opposite of planets. Protons are the opposite of electrons. ????
..."
What you don't understand is masculinity/femininity are not opposite parts. The world is not that easy. That doesn't mean we aren't different. We obviously are and we obviously can have conflicts. You just oversimplify things.
..."
What you don't understand is masculinity/femininity are not opposite parts. The world is not that easy. That doesn't mean we aren't different. We obviously are and we obviously can have conflicts. You just oversimplify things.
Kodak wrote: "Then maybe put it forward to HeForShe? My favourite phrase:"If you don't ask, you don't get!""
Tried that. But, touche.
You oversimplify it too but from the other side. It may be MAINLY for reproductive reasons, but it's definitely not just that. We are naturally different in more aspects.
I'm off for tonight as I have a friend in need. But I look forward to seeing more opinions when I log on tomorrow.Nite, everyone.
Dada wrote: "Ryan, in case you didn't know, humans all begin life as females. Sex differentiation occurs purely for reproductive reasons. Any other "differences" arise from social conditioning and are thus arti..."http://www.oregoncounseling.org/Artic...
Hello, everyone!Ryan is right about one thing, though: this is a war, indeed, but a war against patriarchy.
The biological excuse to perpetruate patriarchy that we're different is getting old... So tired of hearing that argument. As for that article about the "other differences", I stopped reading when they mentioned our menstrual cycle and the emotions (another sexist argument: our period). Maybe the fact that men solve problems and think differently is due to the fact that they are usually RAISED differently than women, that is, they are encouraged to be leaders from a young age, to be more independent, to compete more among themselves, not to "have feelings" (or, at least, not to show them -boys don't cry and that kind of stuff), and so on, whereas for girls and women is completely the opposite, as if for having an uterus we should think and behave differently (sure! They're educating future mothers and caregivers...!). Moreover, the biological excuse, for example, blames women when they're raped (you should cover yourself, bitch!), but it also treats men like beasts who can't control themselves, so it's harmful for everyone.
One of the goals of feminism is redifining gender roles, of course. Traditional masculinity, apart from women, hurts a lot of men, too, as I mentioned before. There's a specific name for the modern male role, which is "new masculinity". Here are a copuple of articles about it, both from a man's perspective:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/a...
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2014/02...
That's actually not what I said.. Also, good man hating speech.
I was deeply impressed with Emma’s live Youtube in Davos. I watched it live from the beginning to the end. Please definitely Watch this super-awesome video repeatedly!!http://www.heforshe.org/en/newsroom/n...
Again, Emma was super-awesome in Davos as well!! All the participants in the above video were greatest!! I was truly impressed!!(My 8th Comment)
Okay, I'll just come out and say it since no one has taken the hint. The main problem is equality in the workforce and safe opportunities for education. Those are arguably the two main bullets with the HeForShe campaign. The point is, HeForShe openly states that it wants everyone to contribute ideas to tackle specific problems such as these.
So when Elizabeth goes on record and states that we need "redefine masculinity," there are two very big issues that arise. The first is simply that she is no long addressing the issues and has become an extremist. No different that extremist Muslims that commit violent & oppressive acts in the interest of their beliefs. She is trying to push an agenda of forcing everyone to line up with her way of thinking. That is extremism and this is exactly how easy it is for any group to cross that line.
Second issues is with everyone who makes comments like Maria just did a few posts above. I'll copy and paste here: "Traditional masculinity, apart from women, hurts a lot of men, too, as I mentioned before. There's a specific name for the modern male role, which is "new masculinity." Well, news flash, Maria! It doesn't hurt a lot of men; it hurts only a small percentage of men. And those men are usually sexually attracted to other men. (Not an insult on homosexuality.) Aside from that observation, you're talking about behavior therapy on such a deep level that it would completely screw up the male brain. We are different on so many levels, that what Elizabeth is proposing is simply not possible. I don't hold a degree in this area but I'm willing to bet that if we consulted an objective leading expert in the field, they would be completely frightened by the idea.
You people need to stop and really think before you blindly commit to an idea. Not doing so can lead you down a very dark path.
Ryan wrote: "That's actually not what I said.. Also, good man hating speech."
@Ryan Explain this "man hating speech".
Jing Wen wrote: @Ryan Explain this "man hating speech"."
I suppose it really depends on which definition she was inferring when she used the word "patriarchy."
A. a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line.
B. a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
I will quote Maria here: "The biological excuse to perpetuate patriarchy that we're different is getting old... So tired of hearing that argument."
Based on that opening line, I think we can assume she was inferring the historical context of the word; definition A. Which is basically, man hating.
Ryan wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: @Ryan Explain this "man hating speech"."
I suppose it really depends on which definition she was inferring when she used the word "patriarchy."
A. a system of society or governm..."
Wow. Jumping from a statement promoting gender equality to man hating is quite a big leap.
So if I say I'm all for gay marriage, does it mean I'm straight hating?
Folks, how could we explain to people that feminism, HeForShe, and we all particularly aren't man-hating at all? Seriously? Is there a wise and solid way to do it thoroughly, completely, once and for all? So we could just provide them with a link instead of wasting time in endless and useless arguing and attempts to deliver the point to each one? I simply see this situation repeating too many times.
Jing Wen wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: @Ryan Explain this "man hating speech"."
I suppose it really depends on which definition she was inferring when she used the word "patriarchy."
A. a system of socie..."
Completely different and a horrible comparison. I can't believe I have to break this down for you, but here you go:
Patriarchy, as she was using it in her post, is a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line.
That's it! There is nothing oppressive about that at all. It's simply a way to document a bloodline. To hate that is utterly ridiculous which leads me to the conclusion that she simply hates men.
Now let's take it one step further and say we suddenly changed our methodology and started using a matriarchal system. What would change? Nothing. So, again, hating the system used to document a family history is so stupid that it doesn't deserve attention.
Ash wrote: "Folks, how could we explain to people that feminism, HeForShe, and we all particularly aren't man-hating at all? Seriously? Is there a wise and solid way to do it thoroughly, completely, once and f..."I don't think the majority is man hating. I think what the majority of women feminists hate is their lack of power. That is ultimately what it comes down to.
I mean, Aristophanes wrote the classic Greek comedy Lysistrata around 411 BC. The whole premise of the comedy is that the Greeks were always fighting amongst themselves & not even the women threatening to withhold sexual pleasure could stop that.
Throughout all of human history things have been this way. I feel for women.. I really do. But it will never change.
Mod
Well, we shall see, whether it changes or not. :)
Wow this is a heated argument. Look, This is just my opinion... But masculinity is every man's problem. It has nothing to do with your sexual desires. If you don't believe me, try to recall the last time you saw a man in your life cry because of a very reasonable thing... Say the loss of a loved one. The traditional definition of masculinity has taken this right away from them. A man will automatically feel that they must be strong, and crying is a sign of weakness, so by crying they are less of a man. It's not right. Every person should be free to embrace their emotions. Also just to clarify, HeForShe is about people uniting to achieve gender equality. It has never declared education, sex, marriage, politics, or other specific area of concern as a priority. The issue of the traditional definition of masculinity was actually covered by Emma Watson in her 2014 UN speech. You're welcome to check that for yourself.
Last, I invite you all to embrace the basic principles of this group, one of which is mutual respect.
Parnian wrote: "Wow this is a heated argument. Look, This is just my opinion... But masculinity is every man's problem. It has nothing to do with your sexual desires. If you don't believe me, try to recall the las..."As a little girl, I was raised in a very similar way as to many guys. I was constantly told not to cry and that I needed to grow up and stop being a baby. I'm still an emotional person, but my emotions aren't publically shared. Being raised this way I see the idea that men can't express themselves that is a stereotype. Like in any stereotype, there is a grain of truth. I think it comes from not sharing emotions publicly and, in my experience, being the one that others cry on. When my mom came to me looking for a shoulder to cry on, she needed emotional support not commiseration.
Ryan wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: @Ryan Explain this "man hating speech"."
I suppose it really depends on which definition she was inferring when she used the word "patriarchy."
A. ..."
Listen to yourself.
Patriarchy, as she was using it in her post, is a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line.
In that case, regardless of a woman's ability or qualifications, a male will always head and lead. You can honestly tell me that there is nothing wrong about that? You can honestly tell me that patriarchy is fair? That your circumstances of birth will ultimately determine if you are destined for success or doomed to failure?
Let me discuss Davos again, where Emma interviewed business leaders awesomely. I want Emma to interview New US President after Nov 8. I also want Emma to interview 4 people even at this moment.President Obama regarding HeForShe, Bill & Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett regarding Gender Equality.
Bill and Warren are extremely close friends. All the four awesome people really enthusiastic about Gender Equality. Since awesome business leaders at Davos interviewed by super-awesome Emma said: We regard Gender Equality greatest "investment" as well.
Now, all the business people in the US and the rest of the world will be eager to know how for example Warren would respond to Emma's questions on Gender Equality and investment issues. The following article is worth reading:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-kee...
i'm eager to know how Warren would respond to Emma's questions such as: Are many investors really interested in investing more money into Gender-Equality oriented corporations than Gender-Inequality corporations even in 2017?
If not, how can we change that?
If all investors regard Gender Equality as excellent "investment" as uttered & shared by business leaders in Davos responding to superawesome Emma's questions, Gender Inequality corporations would disappear from the world, because investors really control public corporations behaviours. But they remain unchanged as of 2017. Why? Most of them do not share that view as investors. Therefore, correct that. Warren is the person to whom every business person/every investor would be eager to listen. Warren would think of how to persuade those investors who do not regard Gender-Equality corporations as by far more attractive from investment perspectives than Gender Inequality corporations!! Warren would know how to correct those investors' wrong ways of thinking!! Even if Warren would not solve all the problems, I'm sure he will give Emma a great suggestion!!
I would have wanted a panel or two with WOMEN CEO's not just men, hence we talk about equality between genders and non-genders. WOMEN like Sophia Amoruso, Marisa Mayer, Jessica Alba, and many more..........................>http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/wom...
As far as the awesome 4, whom I above mentioned, are concerned, Emma needs to interview all of them NOW, I mean, at Emma's earliest convenience!! They all are very nice friends with each other. Bill & Melinda have been doing everything together!! Bill and Warren have been Best Friends.
Super-awesome Emma starts with one idea to consequently achieve two projects on two different occasions, which makes PERFECT sense!! It is much better to achieve two different projects on two different occasions!! Focusing on the RUSH project First and Achieving it First is what super-awesome Emma is gonna do Now!!...I guess...
The awesome 4 projects would constitute the centre of the first!!New US President things would be the centre of the second.
Emma's interviewings with UN officials/friends can be both the first & the second!!
Both the first & the second can include different discussions on certain issues ralated to:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-kee...
Emma's finding prof. of economics things will be also the first, since such will be related to President Obama's saying.
Emma's talking with various Struggling Friends is also both the first & the second, whoever they are!! International things of various kinds can be both the first & the second, too!!
Parnian wrote: "Wow this is a heated argument. Look, This is just my opinion... But masculinity is every man's problem. It has nothing to do with your sexual desires. If you don't believe me, try to recall the las..."The problem in today's world is that men are becoming less masculine. The opposite of what you're claiming.
Sure, crying is okay. But every man should know when it's acceptable and when it is not. We are different from women and do not weep over nearly as many things. If an invading army burns down your home, repeatedly violates your wife & daughters, and murders your children.. crying is perfectly acceptable. However, crying because your dog died is not. A man needs that situational awareness because, quite frankly, no one likes a weak male. Weak males have no place in this world.
Now then, as for what HeForShe is about. You're right about equality being the end goal. However, how do you think this is going to happen? You should go look at the new website where they ask visitors what area is most important in the fight for equality. The list a few of the items you claim do not concern HeForShe; education, sex, marriage, politics, etc.
As for mutual respect, I have been putting out nothing but logical arguments based upon my formal education and research. If that offends you, I suggest you get with reality. But I really do try not to offend anyone and agree that it is vital for any civil debate.
Jing Wen wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Ryan wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: @Ryan Explain this "man hating speech"."
I suppose it really depends on which definition she was inferring when she used the word "patr..."
How in the bloody hell do you get all of that out of a system for tracking a bloodline on paper?
That's all it is. It's simply a method of book keeping for tracking generations of a family. Nothing more and nothing less. It has zero influence on any individual's life; male or female.
Elena wrote: "I would have wanted a panel or two with WOMEN CEO's not just men, hence we talk about equality between genders and non-genders. WOMEN like Sophia Amoruso, Marisa Mayer, Jessica Alba, and many more...."Or a round table discussion with BOTH! This is a great idea, Elena.
Takashi wrote: "As far as the awesome 4, whom I above mentioned, are concerned, Emma needs to interview all of them NOW, I mean, at Emma's earliest convenience!! They all are very nice friends with each other. Bi..."
Then why would you want to put them in a discussion? Just to listen to them agree with each other and wave the fan banner?
Change in this life requires opposing wills. Whether that be war or a debate, it is a necessary evil for the resolution of any problem.
Ryan wrote: "Elena wrote: "I would have wanted a panel or two with WOMEN CEO's not just men, hence we talk about equality between genders and non-genders. WOMEN like Sophia Amoruso, Marisa Mayer, Jessica Alba, ..."yeah, but i would have LOVED two panels of just women standalone, just like the all male, a very good selection of men I just loved how carefully chosen they were and how intelligent they actually are but would have loved Emma to use her Watson card and bring women to the table. thank you!
I have been super-impressed when Emma uttered the word "encourage" during Emma's interviewing distinguished business leaders in Davos!! Super-awesome Emma's encouraging has been exactly the same since Emma encouraged us via UN Women Goodwill Ambassador Emma Watson's Super speech made in UN Headquarters!!In 2014 I watched Emma's super awesome speech via the Net and was deeply moved!!
In Davos numerous comments uttered by said distinguished bus leaders, encouraged by Emma, for example , concerning "investment" in relation to achieving Gender Equality!! I am sure these awesome leaders speak up on very important issues, precisely responding to Emma's awesome encouraging questions!! I personally believe that we have not yet gathered every wisdom of the world just by reading all the media & the net throughout the world accumulated since centuries ago to date, even though zillions of splendid articles/writings have educated us a lot!! For example, when I had encountered an international ariticle that I found totally and logically contradictory to what I actually observed overseas on only one occasion in 80s, I called the headquarters of such newspaper in the US, where I had a great many acquaintances then, one executive kindly explained it to me that such international article was written by overseas reporter and also that statistically speaking, the headquarters generally get it printed basically as it's written without much change. As a matter of fact an individual reporter's observation/interpretation of the facts/vision would possibly affect the entire globe!!Of course, I would believe that these individuals are hardworking people of integrity in general.
Since Emma has acquired Emma's original, unique and greatest knowhow as superawesome interviewer, such as: Would you advise me regarding such & such aspects of this issue....? I believe Emma's interviewing of business supergeniuses as well would also contribute a lot in unique manners to our way of global thinking as to how to change the world and achieve Gender Equality!!Greatest Thanks!!(Next: Tokyo time, 4:30 to 6:30PM on Feb 13)
Regarding Emma's original super-awesome interviewing knowhow proven in Davos, I will discuss it again in relation to the other topic I had discussed the other day ---Let me see, in 7 minutes from now!!
"I have been super-impressed when Emma uttered the word "encourage"...""In Davos numerous comments uttered by said distinguished bus leaders, encouraged by Emma..."
"Since Emma has acquired Emma's original, unique and greatest knowhow as superawesome interviewer,,,"
"Regarding Emma's original super-awesome interviewing knowhow proven in Davos..."
For the love of God, man. You have a massive crush on Emma. We all get it. Please stop chiming in unless you're going to contribute something constructive to the conversation.
As far as I can make out from the Japanese to English translation, your only point in the above FOUR posts is the following:
A. You appreciate her encouraging the world to make a stand for gender equality.
B. You don't believe we can learn anything from studying thousands of years of human history. (Whish is blatantly moronic, btw.)
C. You use an unnamed article & a one-time observation to validate a side argument.
D. You insinuate that we should rely on news media for our knowledge.
Seriously.. please don't teach. Don't ever become a teacher.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
It would have been nice to see them bring in CEOs who hold opposing views. That is the discussion that should have happened. Not simply bringing in men who are already waving the banner. We already know the pro-equality argument, so let's get the other side into the conversation. Wasn't that the initial goal of HeForShe, anyway? To get the other side into the conversation?
With that said, however, I found one comment by Elizabeth to be a little... eyebrow raising. At timestamp 31:35, Elizabeth states that in order for equality to work we must redefine masculinity. Are you kidding me?
That statement right there outright destroys the entire HeForShe movement. She is insinuating that men should become more feminine and that women should become more masculine in order to achieve a balance. The problem with that is you can't change human beings on that level; let alone on a global scale.
So if all the data has led the HeForShe office to come to that conclusion... well they might as well just close the office and go home.
A second interesting remark comes immediately after from the gentlemen responding to Elizabeth's question. He states that his company has been working on "moving the needle" (in regards to promoting women up through the ranks) for over 10 years. He states that the lack of progress is not due to a lack of initiative on the part of his company. Then, perhaps, it is due to a lack of initiative by the women themselves?
Has anyone just randomly gone into a company and interviewed these women to ask them why they haven't asked for promotions or consideration for promotion? If this guy's company (PWC, I believe) is any indication then it lends real data to support Elizabeth's previous comment on "redefining" the genders. Which, of course, is a pipe dream. It isn't uncommon for activists to push for their own version of a utopia and that seems to be the case here.
I suggest everyone watch the video and form their own conclusions. I'm starting this thread in the off chance it leads to an insightful discussion. As for my opinion? Leave the utopia in fairy tales and remember that it is war that carves nations and influences culture. Remember that war has always been a predominantly male theater. Remember that everything in nature must have an opposite in order for real balance to occur. Male versus Female, for example. We are two opposite pieces of the pie. Equality doesn't exist anywhere in nature; never has. Balance is achieved through opposition. That's my two cents.
PS I would like to ask Elizabeth to stop that line of reasoning as it would chip away at our humanity. To blur the lines between the genders would ultimately remove some fundamental differences that are vital to our passion and human spirit. Please stop trying to turn us into robots.