Our Shared Shelf discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Archive
>
The 2015 New Years Eve Attacks in #Cologne (#Köln)
Anja.What are you doing to improve the lives of women in Germany?
According to your statement the law is right now insufficient and the integration is also not progressed to where it needs to be.
I simply do not care if the law is treating everyone equal according to your opinion (which I think is not correct considering how other countries have progressed a lot more than Germany, e.g. the US). If the current state of such laws allows the discrimination against certain groups through harassment or assault. What are women supposed to do now? Harass back? At least that would be legal... (sarcasm off).
We should be clear about the legal deficits and fix them.
I don't think that I should have to answer what I personally am doing, but I am doing things.
The below answer is what I had given to the message before it was edited:
I wrote the answer to your first three questions above your comment already. If you don't understand what I am saying, please send me a private message as this is getting off-topic and I don't appreciate being attacked like this.
I have lived in various countries and I find that equal rights have similar deficits, some more, some less.
I don't think that I should have to answer what I personally am doing, but I am doing things.
The below answer is what I had given to the message before it was edited:
I wrote the answer to your first three questions above your comment already. If you don't understand what I am saying, please send me a private message as this is getting off-topic and I don't appreciate being attacked like this.
I have lived in various countries and I find that equal rights have similar deficits, some more, some less.
Anja.You are 23 according to your profile. How many countries have you lived and worked in over an extended period of time?
I am sorry for offending Anja or anyone else. That was not my intent. I also edited within five minutes of sending one of my messages as I did not like how it sounded, so I did not realize Anja had already replied.
Thanks for the apology, Ines. I would like to just have a healthy discussion, so that we can think of possible solutions that can be implemented to improve the situation in Germany for all people.
I have only been able to read the first page so far, because there is a lot to discuss and a lot of opinions and I just want to throw in my two cents regarding feminists not taking a stand. We all now that Alice Schwarzer didn't hold back writing about cologne immediately. She is the go-to feminists, whose views are kind of outdated, but still, she's gets dragged infront of every camera when something happens.
She was maybe one of the first feminists who talked about the attack on new years eve, but only a few days later a huge group of feminists who are very active online and offline have started the campaign #ausnahmslos to speak out against sexism and racism. It was all over twitter and the german media.
http://ausnahmslos.org/english
I took some time, because they wanted to think first and then speak out about the issue. Also, feminism is a huge field and people fight for different causes, so it took some time for such a huge group to formulate their speaking points together.
We can. A little bit more of a background about me, so you understand me a little better. I am German, have a jewish background, am married to someone from Egypt, and have lived on three different continents over the last 15 years. Just returned back to Germany. I have lived in countries where woman did not count for much. In South Korea at business dinners I had to for example sit at a different table than the men. Despite being one of the managers. In South Africa sexual harassment was so bad that I could not leave the house without protection (either through boyfriend or pepper spray). In the US was the first time where I felt equal; where being a mother was not a problem and where my opinion was respected and heard.Now I am back in Germany and in the last 15 years the country went backwards. Women's opinion just does not seem to count for much (it is quite common for men to dismiss, belittle, discount, or ignore women's comments in a conversation). Anti- jewish sentiments are louder than they were before (I had to ask my daughter to be careful who she is telling that we have a jewish background), and I have been harassed publicly three times in Germany in the last three months. One time two men blocked the path I was running on with their bikes to engage me in some odd conversation. Luckily other runners came and helped me.
I simply am worried how much of the freedom and the rights of a woman are being challenged in Germany right now. I therefore found the comment that it is not much better elsewhere and that the men conducting sexual assault would do the same in their home country not that helpful. The problem is that 15 years have changed what feminism achieved not for the better... :-(
Sexism is a problem with German men.. Sadly, the problem is unfortunately worse when I look at men from Arabic cultures. And I think this needs to be addressed appropriately. As I stated before, my husband has an Arabic background, so noone should call me out a racist. I judge everyone as individual and really love my husband an educated and funny man. However, I do not tolerate the sexism that so many of his country men or from other similar regions are displaying.
Kodak wrote: "Thanks :) Unfortunately text can be read in a variety of ways, it doesn't go directly to you, even sometimes I must sound like an ass, but I try and correct it if I think I'm too forward or horri..."
That is fine. I used to be a mod in a different feminist forum myself. So, I know exactly your role and how it feels..., so I know that you occassionally have to redirect the conversation. These forums live by people like you doing a good job. So, I appreciate all you do!
I can see that negative comments are not much welcomed here in this thread , but ill add my 5 cents anyways. I've seen people welcoming refugees at the station and I've seen the same people being sexually harassed in the NY eve in Köln. I've met people who says " hey Germans do rape as well" , but know what? Germans go to jail if they rape someone, those people didn't get any punishment. They are all over the country trying to dictate to our women how to dress and where to go. But liberal feminism is too liberal ,to deal with that crisis. Personally i think we should not let them just mix in and get lost in our society right now. Someone may think i'm to radical, but i think that's the best option to protect our womenhttp://www.infowars.com/mayors-respon...
I Would just like to post a link to a lecture discussion on Rape in Sweden, Germany and the rest of Europe, Migrant Crisis, and culture. It is a fair and logical informative discussion. It also brings up the topic of "Taharrush games" Which all women especially women in Europe should be aware of. Please watch if you would like.
https://youtu.be/kZeJVKRjhq4
Here is a link explaining "Taharrush games"
http://lughat.blogspot.nl/2016/01/tah...
More 'Taharrush Gamea' sex flash mobs Cologne watch out!https://youtu.be/-xxDhSj6W6Y
Ταχαρούς Τζαμέα - Taharrush Gamea: We've lived it in Greece but didn't know its Arabic name
https://youtu.be/WT7czCqhoXg
Mistreatment Of Women In The Middle East
https://youtu.be/HtZgYJmVUdw
Locovilly wrote: "I can see that negative comments are not much welcomed here in this thread , but ill add my 5 cents anyways. I've seen people welcoming refugees at the station and I've seen the same people being s..."All comments and views are welcome on this thread. Everyone here is an adult and capable of handling different views and constructive discussions. Feel free to express any ideas you like. This is not going to tern into a one sided thread, rather a open dialogue to inform freely. I also agree with you on a lot of points. I have been told by some that I am racist and hateful in having these views. I feel that it is always more important to express the truth of situations and raise awareness in order to protect people, rather then being afraid of being viewed negatively. This is a very difficult situation. One cannot condemn all migrants but At the same time cannot allow, innocent people to be hurt by allowing abusers a free pass. Cultures in the middle east oppress women.m Practices like these have no place in any civilized society. By not speaking out about these matters truthfully people are only inviting more of it to happen and in greater numbers. Silence is sending a message that this kind of behavior is excepted. Good people doing nothing and not seeing truth is allowing it to go on.
Germans don't always go to jail for raping someone, as there are exceptions if the victim does remains silent during the rape due to being in a state of shock etc. Just as sexual haressment - which most victims experienced at New Year's - would not result in jail time for Germans.
The term is 'Taharrush gamea' not 'games'. Translating it to 'games', gives it a very different meaning. It is also a fairly new word. This method of sexual harassment is not only restricted to the middle eastern cultures, El Salvador, Serbia have been in the news for similar events. I think that it is appalling and more likely to be a phenomenon in several countries, however in some countries it is just accepted. For example, the Oktoberfest in Germany, where women experience this daily and nothing is done. How can we expect refugees to treat women correctly, if we do not sort out how women are being treated in Germany by the Germans? I think we have to work on this and stop using the excuse of these festivals to treat women like objects.
The term is 'Taharrush gamea' not 'games'. Translating it to 'games', gives it a very different meaning. It is also a fairly new word. This method of sexual harassment is not only restricted to the middle eastern cultures, El Salvador, Serbia have been in the news for similar events. I think that it is appalling and more likely to be a phenomenon in several countries, however in some countries it is just accepted. For example, the Oktoberfest in Germany, where women experience this daily and nothing is done. How can we expect refugees to treat women correctly, if we do not sort out how women are being treated in Germany by the Germans? I think we have to work on this and stop using the excuse of these festivals to treat women like objects.
Anja I am sorry for the translation 'Taharrush games" from "Taharrush gamea " I was on my tablet at the time and the automatic spell check changes it. This was not a internal change i can assure you. The main reason i posted these videos was to raise awareness of these kinds of acts.Where i do have my personal views I think the most important thing is to inform women everywhere that these practices happen. That was my motivation. If you come across any other information to help inform and protect women against these kind of behaviors, acts, and pratices please share.
Anja wrote: "Germans don't always go to jail for raping someone, as there are exceptions if the victim does remains silent during the rape due to being in a state of shock etc. Just as sexual haressment - which..."Also if you can share any insight on the origins
"Taharrush gamea " that would be great too. I do have some myself but I didn't want to take over the thread with this issue. Can you explain were it comes form? what countries that it is practiced in large majorities? What countries allow these practices to occur legally or without punishment by the law? What language is "Taharrush" I mean is that German? it doesn't sound German. Can you explain your reasoning. Are you saying that the refugees that were arrested for these attacks against women were just following german mens behaviors? that the refugees that have been arrested for these attacks across Europe were just following European male behavior? Could you please also give some facts to back this up? It would be helpful to everyone.
Oh and can you please please please watch the video below.
What Pisses Me Off About The German Rape Attackshttps://youtu.be/hDxNg7rdT4U
16 y/o German girl talks about muslim immigration, destruction of her own country (Engl. subs)
https://youtu.be/uGfP8CyJAhg
Muslim Rape In UK Exposed by Feminist Toni Bugle, Toni Bugle, founder of M.A.R.I.A.S. in the UK. https://youtu.be/0v9t8XhfHk0
Anja wrote: "Germans don't always go to jail for raping someone, as there are exceptions if the victim does remains silent during the rape due to being in a state of shock etc. Just as sexual haressment - which..."Yes, not always they go to jail, but when German guy tries to harass you, You can call the police and police will deal with him. In the other hand when refugees / immigrants doing the same police most likely will not try to arrest them or do something to protect you. That's one.
Second is that: before immigration crisis we wasn't afraid to go out at evening, we wasn't afraid to stay alone on the street at night. Now after the New Years attacks most of women are afraid to go out. Rape rate started to grow only after all the refugees arrived. Since Thursday there was at least 120 harassment cases on Köln carneval.
Also, i don't think we must use " germans rape as well" as any excuse regarding what is happening.
WOW. Just read through all your posts and, as always, this topic makes me, oh, so, so mad. It's hard for me to form proper sentences from time to time because of that.What I find most disturbing about this whole conversation that is (not) happening in Germany is that as soon as you start to say something about how terrible the things of New Year’s were (because you are actually concerned about women's rights and not because you want to do some immigrants-bashing), more and more people (and, sadly enough, a lot of them women) just refuse to discuss this with you because they assume from the get-go that you are a racist idiot who wants to kill all immigrants (which I don't...just in case I can't make myself clear). It's not possible to have a real discussion about it from the point of view that what happened to these women (and on any other occasion things like that happen) was and is terrible and that every perpetrator should be punished for it—no matter what cultural or religious background they have. But that is something they don't want to hear. They only hear the words "New Year’s", "attack", "punishment" and interpret it as, "you think that all immigrants are dangerous and bad and should be put into jail." Which is ridiculous. Just like saying all immigrants (or Germans, or Americans, or Russians, or women, or men, or children, or...) are nice, decent people. In a group, you always have a lot of "normal", good people. But you always have the "black sheep". You have that at the Oktoberfest, at your birthday, in Germany, in the US, in school, at work,...everywhere. And those have to be punished for the things they do wrong.
Which, of course, brings up the problem of...close reasoning, I think it's called in English. For each person you want to prosecute…you have to pin a certain, actual act on them. Not "He was there and I think he did that". It has to be definite. And in a group this big, that's very, very difficult.
So, the majority of the men who attacked and harassed women that night won't be punished for it. And if they are found guilty (just like a lot of other cases like these committed by German/young/old men, too, of course), the law is not used to its maximum to discourage others from doing things like that in the future. Which is where we have to start, I think. We have to start actually using the laws that exist and not just use the softest punishment you can find. (And, as has been pointed out many, many times already, make some laws a lot stricter and clearer.)
I don't care if people are men, women, cis, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Asians, Africans, big, small, thin, fat, whatever. I like people because of their character, their behavior. And I don't like them for the same reasons. So, I find the things that happened at New Year’s absolutely intolerable. No matter who did it, they should be punished for it. (But, see above…)
The biggest problem, in my opinion, is (as I said before) that you cannot have a real conversation about that. Which is very dangerous. For all parties involved. It won't help us women, it won't help men, it won't help the thousands and thousands of immigrants who want to live a safe and good life in Germany. But to be honest, I don't know what to do anymore. I feel so...helpless. I want to talk about that, discuss it with my friends. But I get the feeling that it has already damaged a really important friendship and I don't know how to fix it...and that makes me really, really sad, because what happened on New Year’s didn't only damage the people there, but now the rest of society, too, because we cannot talk about it openly, without prejudices, without assuming the worst of the other from the start.
Just as an endnote…what happened in Cologne happened, as they said about a month later, in 12 states in Germany that night. In 12. Not to the same extent, of course, but it did. But to make people worry less they added that they hadn’t been organized incidents, but separate ones. I am not sure why that should reassure me. I think I’d rather have to deal with a certain group, an organization, than a feeling, a view, spread across the whole of society that it’s okay to harass women…for me, that would be much harder to deal with. But maybe I am just naïve.
I also hate the fact that i'm being called nazi or racist when i say what i think. In this case i'm not with liberals, i want to feel safe on the streets of my city. I want everyone who commit such crimes to be punished. I do not care if they are refugees or Germans, but all the facts shows that this kind of accidents wasn't common in Germany before arrival of millions of people of other culture. Everything is clear for me. They come here and want us to accept their culture (not all of them ofcourse , i don't want to generalise) , and we will just accept it? Call me nazi i don't care, i don't want to see how German liberal feminist apologising to refugees for being such rude people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78OWT...
Locovilly wrote: "I also hate the fact that i'm being called nazi or racist when i say what i think. In this case i'm not with liberals, i want to feel safe on the streets of my city. I want everyone who commit such..."It is shocking and infuriating that progressive liberals and main stream feminism has taken the view it has on these issues. In America people are starting to feel that their freedoms are being taken away by political correctness, but nothing to this extent.
The thing is, these people are form Middle-east, a place and culture were misogyny is not only permited but also condoned. They believe that just because a woman dresses in a way they find "immoral" they have the right to rape her. No, just no. They're not in their homeland anymore, they're mere guests, aliens, in a truly civilized culture were women's rights exist and if someone violates those rights, they are punished. Those immigrants, as soon as they arrive a Western country, must be warned and taught by some organization that, as long as they stay in that Western country, they must respect women and make them know that just because they wear whateve they want, doesn't give them the right to attack them in any way, otherwise they'll be punished. And, if they don't like the idea of respecting women, they have the option of leaving and move to some place were their primitive actions are permited.
As I stated before, I am not using the fact that other people commit sexual crimes in order to excuse the perpetrators in Cologne (suspects included Germans, US-Americans, Algerians, Syrians, thus not only refugees) and the other cities. I didn't say anywhere that I'm excusing their actions. Just that people should realise that generalising a group based on what characteristic can lead to discrimination against people who have not done anything wrong.
Secondly, I didn't call anyone a racist or a Nazi.
Thirdly, what I'm trying to point out are the gaps left in our legal system. If we work on these gaps, we can ensure the security of all victims of sexual crimes.
And James, I watched part of the videos - I don't have time to watch all of it. I disagree with the generalisations they made. As to the etymology, this was stated in the website that you posted about the taharrush gamea. It's worth reading the comments as well, in my opinion.
Secondly, I didn't call anyone a racist or a Nazi.
Thirdly, what I'm trying to point out are the gaps left in our legal system. If we work on these gaps, we can ensure the security of all victims of sexual crimes.
And James, I watched part of the videos - I don't have time to watch all of it. I disagree with the generalisations they made. As to the etymology, this was stated in the website that you posted about the taharrush gamea. It's worth reading the comments as well, in my opinion.
Anja wrote: "As I stated before, I am not using the fact that other people commit sexual crimes in order to excuse the perpetrators in Cologne (suspects included Germans, US-Americans, Algerians, Syrians, thus ..."I have read them, that's why i posted them. I was actually hoping for you point of view and thoughts on the subject though. Isn't it also disturbing to you that people don't feel like they can talk about this subject honestly and truthfully without being labeled and persecuted against? and this is done so by the politically correct mindset? And why is the government basically telling the women of german that they should avoid situations, and take actions to not to get raped and assaulted. which to my feelings is victim blaming. and I'm just kind of looking for your own personal view since it is different from mine.
Kodak wrote: "Aw, you star, Ines ;) Thank you, honestly appreciate the feedback! x"Hey Kodak I was wondering, if you had the time, if you could watch this video Feminist Toni Bugle, Toni Bugle, founder of M.A.R.I.A.S. in the UK. Being form the U.K. I thought you might have some insight and views on it.
Muslim Rape In UK Exposed by Feminist Toni Bugle, Toni Bugle, founder of M.A.R.I.A.S. in the UK.
https://youtu.be/0v9t8XhfHk0
I don't know why people feel like they cannot talk honestly and truthfully seeing that there are several people on this thread who don't have my opinion.
I think using the term 'politically correct' is wrong in such conversations. If something is politically incorrect, it is incorrect regardless of the situation.
The government is not as a whole telling women that they should avoid these situations - that is a generalisation. Several politicians have done so, but during my schooltime we were also told to avoid such situations but not in regard to the danger of a specific group. I think this is not something where one has to ask for anopinion is: it IS victim blaming.
I think using the term 'politically correct' is wrong in such conversations. If something is politically incorrect, it is incorrect regardless of the situation.
The government is not as a whole telling women that they should avoid these situations - that is a generalisation. Several politicians have done so, but during my schooltime we were also told to avoid such situations but not in regard to the danger of a specific group. I think this is not something where one has to ask for anopinion is: it IS victim blaming.
Reform des Sexualstrafrechts
This article mentions some deficits of the German legal system - it's only in German.
This article mentions some deficits of the German legal system - it's only in German.
Anja wrote: "Reform des SexualstrafrechtsThis article mentions some deficits of the German legal system - it's only in German."
I would absolute call the reaction by main stream feminist, the media, the police and liberal government political correctness. Why is is not. Progressive Regressive liberals are constantly telling everyone not to have any negative view toward the refugees and immigrants. To not look at refugees imagines, as committing these crimes, but rather to look at all men. How is that not Politically Correct censorship. If someone gives a option that is not P.C. they are called racist,sexist,Islamophobia... Meanwhile there is a huge rape epidemic that is systemic of these acts happening all across Europe. Sweden, One of the most liberal countries in Europe and a country that has taken in the most refuges, now has the highest rapes and assaults of women and children. The vast vast majority of these attacks are refugee muslim immanent. The Police and News as made attempts to cover up these events because of fear of be labeled racist. A lot of people are even trying to justify these actions by saying it's these muslims actions are caused by cultural ambiguities. "They don't know that they can't treat women like that, they aren't use to European women." Jesus Christ, and people are defending this. And NO this is not just in Germany.
By the way you didn't answer my question on your thoughts and insight on the origins of "Taharrush gamea "
Oh here is article you can look at.
MUSLIM RAPE CULTURE
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/21781...
Of course, people are being politically correct as one has the respect people. There is nothing wrong with expecting people to treat other people with respect. It's not about looking at all men but looking at the individuals who committed the crime. What is important for me is that we don't generalise that Muslims are the only people committing these crimes. As I mentioned above, some suspects were German.
I think if you want more ideas about this matter, you should open up a separate topic.
I think if you want somebody to tell you the origin about Taharrush gamea you shouldn't ask this in this specific German thread. I don't have the knowledge to give you a qualified answer.
I think if you want more ideas about this matter, you should open up a separate topic.
I think if you want somebody to tell you the origin about Taharrush gamea you shouldn't ask this in this specific German thread. I don't have the knowledge to give you a qualified answer.
James --Based on the articles I read all men in the cologne new year incident had a migration background, not sure where Anja learned anything different. However, she apparently has different sources of data that I do not have access to.
She is arguing from an ideology base rather assuming that all men have equal tendencies to commit sexual crimes instead of risking to categorize based on country of origin or religion. You are approaching the topic from a different end of the spectrum.
I do not think there is any chance to change the course of conversation.
This is a good example of how dogmas and believe systems are dangerous as they prevent ourselves from listening to other point of views or engaging in a true dialogue. You will see the same level of argumentation when you watch debates about the benefits or risks of vaccinations. All data and info is massaged to fit an already existing opinion and thus true thinking and learning is avoided.
Suspects in Cologne This German article talks about where the suspects came from. I am not saying that these people committed the crimes - as I do not know the result of the investigations.
I would like to state that I don't think that all men have equal tendencies to commit crimes, I think that this depends on the person. This is what I'm trying to say, it's individual. I'm not putting all men in one boat or even saying that it's just men who commit sexual crimes.
The way that your comment is written, Ines, it seems that you assume that I am massaging the info and data that I am gathering into a pre-existing opinion. I try to have an open mind but I will not sacrifice being politically correct as I do not think that being politically correct is dangerous.
I would like to state that I don't think that all men have equal tendencies to commit crimes, I think that this depends on the person. This is what I'm trying to say, it's individual. I'm not putting all men in one boat or even saying that it's just men who commit sexual crimes.
The way that your comment is written, Ines, it seems that you assume that I am massaging the info and data that I am gathering into a pre-existing opinion. I try to have an open mind but I will not sacrifice being politically correct as I do not think that being politically correct is dangerous.
I understand the different arguments presented. I'm striving to be politically correct, but I won't discard honesty either, and sometimes truth makes those of us wishing to remain politically correct incredibly uncomfortable. I wasn't jumping of joy when sharing news from my part of the world, but I also don't believe in sticking my head in the sand (in general, not referring to this topic now). It can be a difficult balance to strike.In regards to concrete information, the men harrassing women in my part of the world were Muslim asylum seekers, but do I think all men of that faith act similarly? Of course not. Yet some did and some do, so in order for Europe to be able to prevent future (mass) harrassment from happening, we need to say it like it is.
If we mix local men and their harrassment into the soup, nothing good comes out of it, because reasons behind attacks can be vastly different, and therefore measures to counteract also need to be different.
I see no point in denying anything, but talking about apples and oranges, as would the same tactics work in both cases, doesn't seem very fruitful to me. But perhaps the bickering itself is fun, I dunno.
I agree to. Although I don't view political correctness as a positive thing.
I see it as a way of the government, organizations and people in power to try and control thoughts,ideas and speech of individuals. I know Feminist are very found of political correctness but it leaves the door wide open to a slippery slop of collectivism...which goes against individual rights.
Really? Paul Joseph Watson and Stefan Molyneux? ... a vast amount of politically correct impotent rage is being held in right now. There's being against political correctness, and then there's being against correctness in general. I mislike political correctness in art (every kind of art) as well. If you want the view of a very left-wing feminist on political correctness, here it is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Bm0...
Now, to give you all a bit of context, BadMouseProductions, the maker of this video, is a social anarchist (like myself) who up until about 10 months ago used to be a market libertarian like Stefan Molyneux.
He has since taking the left-wing stance also taken a stance for feminism, which is unsurprising considering feminism is the most logical position for an anarchist to hold, but still a very good change from the propertarian philosophy he used to hold. And I have found that the propertarian (aka market libertarian) philosophy is always (and I mean ALWAYS) accompanied by a rampant scorn against feminism. I highly suggest watching some of BadMouseProductions' other videos from the past 9 months to learn more on the matter, particularly concerning Youtubers TL;DR and Anarchyball, who is also a propertarian.
I thought of this thread when reading of Taiwan's earthquake, then following a link to an older article on Taiwan in general.Taiwan's year of disasters highlights safety concerns:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33...
Religion can be a sensitive topic, so perhaps it'll be helpful to read of other examples, where humans behave such that disaster comes out of the collective sticking of heads in the sand?
Yet another example I thought of was when watching Helen Mirren as Maria Altmann in "Woman of Gold". It's about paintings stolen in Austria by the Nazis, but the point I'm making is how early in the movie Maria's father discussed with a relative the political developments, and how the relative encouraged Maria's family to flee before it is too late. Ignoring facts led to borders closing, and one family becoming stuck amidst neighbours turning against neighbours.
I'm simply advocating openness rather than ignoring signs, whatever they may be, and the ultimate goal should be to have people of various faiths living side by side in harmony. No? It is human to want to ignore facts, but if the cost is decreased honesty and therefore decreased chances at an actually fruitful dialogue, was the price worth paying?
For me, political correctness is about not using generalisations when talking (e.g. saying that due to the refugees we are having a migrant crisis in Europe). It's about concentrating on individuals. Being political correct for example, does not mean that the phrase: "Refugees are sexually assaulting women in Germany." should be changed to "Men are sexually assault women in Germany." Rather it should be: "Some refugees are sexually assaulting women.
Aglaea wrote: "But perhaps the bickering itself is fun, I dunno."
I'm not sure if this statement is targeted to me. However, if it is I'm not bickering for fun. I joined this discussion to make people aware of the problems with our legal system that have led to victims having less protection in Germany. If you would be interested in participating in changing the legal system so that victims of sexual assault are protected effectively, there is a petition No means no that can be signed online.
Could we get back to the original topic. There is a possibility to open a thread about political correctness.
Aglaea wrote: "But perhaps the bickering itself is fun, I dunno."
I'm not sure if this statement is targeted to me. However, if it is I'm not bickering for fun. I joined this discussion to make people aware of the problems with our legal system that have led to victims having less protection in Germany. If you would be interested in participating in changing the legal system so that victims of sexual assault are protected effectively, there is a petition No means no that can be signed online.
Could we get back to the original topic. There is a possibility to open a thread about political correctness.
Anja wrote: "I'm not sure if this statement is targeted to me. However, if it is I'm not bickering for fun. I joined this discussion to make people aware of the problems with our legal system that have led to victims having less protection in Germany. If you would be interested in participating in changing the legal system so that victims of sexual assault are protected effectively, there is a petition No means no that can be signed online."
Oh, well, there was a lot of rowing back and forth aka bickering earlier. Not directed at you, but the thread in general. If it were at you, I would have quoted you and mentioned you by name. Passive-aggressive isn't my thing.
Anja wrote: "Rather it should be: "Some refugees are sexually assaulting women."
What is wrong with "Some male refugees are sexually assaulting women" if that is how it is? I doubt female refugees were sexually assaulting local men on New Year's eve, but I could be wrong of course. The quoted sentence is not reflecting truth. And "Men are..." isn't showing the correct context either, because if it is a refugee doing the bad stuff, it most certainly can have political consequences, and there is no harm in basing decisions in actual facts. And if it indeed was "Women (refugees) are sexually harrassing..." again it would affect greatly the tactics of how to solve the problem.
If it is of interest, I think everyone should read this article. There are women speaking up about a topic apparently not talked about.
"Iranians speak out over sexual harassment scandal"
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trendin...
Aglaea wrote: What is wrong with "Some male refugees are sexually assaulting women" if that is how it is?
That's correct, I forgot about that distinction.
However, please check the source I mentioned in which it was stated that not all of the suspects were refugees. Some were even from Germany or the USA.
That's correct, I forgot about that distinction.
However, please check the source I mentioned in which it was stated that not all of the suspects were refugees. Some were even from Germany or the USA.
Anja wrote: "Aglaea wrote: What is wrong with "Some male refugees are sexually assaulting women" if that is how it is?That's correct, I forgot about that distinction.
However, please check the source I menti..."
I had an example of my own, in which suspects were refugees only. The OP stated that it was okay to discuss other incidents as well.
Anja.Could you state the source of men being involved that did not have a migration background. I have searched the police reports and newspapers for days without any reference that would align with your hypothesis that you stated now several times, Every single source I read was that the men involved were indeed of a migration background, not all refugees, but all with ancestors from Arabic/North African/Middle Eastern countries.
I am worried that you are purposefully misleading the conversation by stating the phrase "even Germans were involved" by denying one common denominator that all men possessed.
Technically some might have had German citizenship, but since some seem to have travelled from France, you might also claim that French people were involved.
Or we could summarize it all as Europeans attacking women. Or let's summarize is as people attacking people, so we are not discriminating against any men that were not involved.
See where I am going?
Anja wrote: "Suspects in Cologne This German article talks about where the suspects came from. I am not saying that these people committed the crimes - as I do not know the result of the investigations.
"
Did you hear about the Belgian reporter who was groped during a live broadcast while reporting on the Cologne Carnival?
"
Did you hear about the Belgian reporter who was groped during a live broadcast while reporting on the Cologne Carnival?
I was talking about New Year's, Anja. Do not twist around comments or my words. I see you do not want to engage in a dialogue and you avoid any true conversation. So, let's stop here, I am giving up.
The first article is about New Year's. I had already posted this article on the 7th February and I quoted my message of that day. I'm not twisting around anything.
If you click on the link, you can read the article in German. I am reposting the link: http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2016-... just so you can see that it states 'suspects' and 'silvester'. It's your choice whether you want to read it.
If you click on the link, you can read the article in German. I am reposting the link: http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2016-... just so you can see that it states 'suspects' and 'silvester'. It's your choice whether you want to read it.
Even if we say "some male refugees" sexually harassing women, it still in my opinion is enough for lets say sending them back where they came from. I don't care if they are safe there or not, they chose to do what they did. Till then i'm going to generalize all of them as i see they do not get any punishment for what they did. Now they know they will not be arrested or punished or sent back, so i guess rape wave will not stop. Changing sexual law will not help, as they aren't following any laws now , what made you think they'll follow new laws?
They came to Germany destroying all on their way, and now they trying to destroy something European women was fighting for for last couple centuries, and all what i hear is that they have different culture and lets understand them. Hell no.
This crime wave started only after their arrival , some people may try to protect them, but i guess most people are just too brainwashed with all that liberal ideas, that they don't see further than their noses.
I want to ask those who would be interested in answering something. Do you think it is fair to send rapists as well as other sexual offenders back to other people whom they could victimise thus leading to new victims having to deal with this issue?
Anja.The article is over a month old, since then better statements have been published, and I had also confirming the content in my reply to you. You are ignoring my arguments and my input, completely, though. No reference to any of the statements and counterarguments I made.
Where I am coming from:
My father in law is from Egypt. A refugee who fled the country in 1960, because he was persecuted due to his religion. When he moved to the US, he did not think women were equal. He was used to women walking a few steps behind men and that a woman's job is to serve her husband. Thanks to great integration work from his University and (I believe) the Red Cross with language schools and such, he learned new rules. He had the advantage that he was only one. We are now dealing with groups of large quantities that may or may not be seeing or confronted with European role model behavior and most definitely do hardly ever experience 1:1 coaching.
My father in law has since raised two well established sons who are working in both government and top management and are doing their best to progress equality in African, US, and European countries.
I am feeling that you avoiding the root cause, lumping all men together, refusing to engage in any real dialogue is preventing any progress that can be made when integrating men with migration background from a country where women are treated as objects.
Yes, there are idiots and criminals out there independent from the New Year's attacks. But this does not make the conversation we need to have about Arabic or North African men immigrating to Europe any less important. And we as feminists need to be in the first line to actually fight not only for our rights, but for proper integration.
Yet, we are still arguing about the problem statement with you.
This is why I and many others here seem to be so frustrated. We talk about experience, we talk about details and facts that we learned... and you are not considering the input, address concerns, or are answering questions that require you to step out of your comfort zone. If most people had this communication style, we would not be able to narrow down on any problem statement and thus would not be able to work towards solutions.
Conversations do not need to be black and white. Insisting on an opinion that you had before entering the conversation is not helpful. I actually learned something from every post here in this thread and it has helped me shape my desire to become more proactive in politics and communities. Do I think everyone is right here. No. Noone can be. I am also just biased based on my own experiences and education. However, the power is in working together despite differences. Aligning on a problem statement is the first step.
I think most of people will not answer this question to not look like coward. But do you think its better to have them all here and allow them doing that here? The fact that they are here now doesn't change anything in their countries of origin. There are still enough people to do the same as they did before. Maybe instead of bringing more threat to Europe we must concentrate on finding the political solution to fight that in their countries.
I'm not under an obligation to tell my whole life-story on Goodreads or tell personal stories in order to support my position.
You stated: Ines wrote: "I was talking about New Year's, Anja. Do not twist around comments or my words.
I see you do not want to engage in a dialogue and you avoid any true conversation. So, let's stop here, I am giving up." which to me, means that you didn't see the first article.
Ines wrote: "I am feeling that you avoiding the root cause, lumping all men together, refusing to engage in any real dialogue is preventing any progress that can be made when integrating men with migration background from a country where women are treated as objects. "
My opinion, is that at the moments all male refugees are being lumped together. Some people refuse to accept that Arab and North African countries have different types and levels of gender inequality, and that in some aspects they are more advanced than we are.
I agree that some male refugees treat other genders as subordinate, however I don't think this is due to religion but due to poverty, colonialism and war.
You stated: Ines wrote: "I was talking about New Year's, Anja. Do not twist around comments or my words.
I see you do not want to engage in a dialogue and you avoid any true conversation. So, let's stop here, I am giving up." which to me, means that you didn't see the first article.
Ines wrote: "I am feeling that you avoiding the root cause, lumping all men together, refusing to engage in any real dialogue is preventing any progress that can be made when integrating men with migration background from a country where women are treated as objects. "
My opinion, is that at the moments all male refugees are being lumped together. Some people refuse to accept that Arab and North African countries have different types and levels of gender inequality, and that in some aspects they are more advanced than we are.
I agree that some male refugees treat other genders as subordinate, however I don't think this is due to religion but due to poverty, colonialism and war.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
To this question.
No, I don't think the law is favouring men. I think the law supports the crimes of people (regardless of gender) who commit certain sexual crimes - not all crimes, just crimes that are not considered to be illegal according to our legal system. For example, Paragraph 177 in the Strafgesetzbuch (German Criminal Code).