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RED RISING Trilogy re-reads
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The GOLDEN SON re-read: Part II BREAK
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The duel scene between Darrow and Cassius is one of my favorite things I've ever read. I love the bait and switch on Darrow training with Lorn. I also really like the hints at it by having Darrow quote Lorn once or twice before the scene.As important as nuance and character development are in a story, it's nice to see a badass actually get the room to be a badass.
I have this test... For characters in a story.Describe the characters in one sentence without saying what they look like, or what they do in the story.
If you can convey who they are in that sentence, then you know you have read a well written character.
What do you know? A lot of the characters in RR and GS pass this test, even a lot of the "lesser" ones!
Tooms wrote: "I have this test... For characters in a story.Describe the characters in one sentence without saying what they look like, or what they do in the story.
If you can convey who they are in that sen..."
Hmmmm, I like that test. I think I'll borrow your idea, Tooms. I think I'd did this intuitively, but never put it into words. It makes more sense to me when I can't voice why I DON'T like a character. Thx.
Darrow single handedly starting the biggest war the Universe has ever seen
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Describe the characters in one sentence without saying what they look like, or what they do in the story.
If you can convey who they are in that sen..."
I believe the inverse is true. If they can be summed up in one sentence, then perhaps they don't have enough hidden depths
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kaboom
Pierce wrote: "Tooms wrote: "I have this test... For characters in a story.Describe the characters in one sentence without saying what they look like, or what they do in the story.
If you can convey who they a..."
If a hundred people wrote ONE sentence, and that sentence varied greatly... Then you have hidden depths.
Regardless, it's just a simple trick... It's not about summing up a character in one sentence, it's about identifying a character besides their looks and actions. In other words, do you know what they feel?
There is no doubt there are many layers to well written characters.
"In most ways he's not a bad man. He's just my bad man."I don't know why exactly, but this really stuck with me. It just rings so true; that people are never black and white in who they are and what they do. Every battle is fought in gray.
In relation to the plot developments in part IIObviously it's not exactly chance that has Darrow follow Victra to see The Jackal. It's not exactly planned either.
When visiting the Jackal, Darrow finds Every, and then Harmony ... He does this through his own choices.
In his meeting with Harmony she reveals the "plan" and asks Darrow to play his part.
It's a convenience that he's even there to begin with ... How would Harmony have otherwise found him to get him to play his part?
I am a school librarian, and one aspect that I really enjoyed from your novels is that you mention many works of classical literature as well as quotes from well-know philosophers, like Plato. Did you know in the planning phases that you wanted to add in these particular references?
Tooms wrote: "In relation to the plot developments in part IIObviously it's not exactly chance that has Darrow follow Victra to see The Jackal. It's not exactly planned either.
When visiting the Jackal, Darr..."
If I remember correctly, he never was their main plan. They had other lower colors that they were going to try and sneak into the gathering. They also had an "army" of a modified reds that Darrow says himself and his Howlers could rip apart easily. I think that whole scene really shows how horrible and reckless their plan has gotten and how small they think. At that point we think Ares is still in charge but it makes much more sense when we find out they have split off to do their own thing.
Laura wrote: "I am a school librarian, and one aspect that I really enjoyed from your novels is that you mention many works of classical literature as well as quotes from well-know philosophers, like Plato. Did ..."I love those Easter Eggs also :)
One missed opportunity: for all the cool references you add in to your story, Pierce, I would have absolutely loved to see a Star Trek Borg reference thrown into the scene where Orion and the other Blues are clamoring to pilot the Pax. The way you describe the look and culture of the Blues always has my mind half-way imagining them looking like cerulean colored Borg.
I hope there is a big scrap between Darrow and Aja in Morning Star. I remember somewhere Darrow mentioning that he was taught ALL of the willow way techniques and that Aja wasn't taught everything Lorn had to offer.
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These references were the reason I made the RR books to begin with. I loved classical literature and I wanted to find a story fit for the theories and themes of it
When Darrow gets offered to work with Octavia. He should've accepted. It would've served his purpose, no ? He refused because he cares for his friend... his GOLD friends. Isn't he forgetting who he is ? When reading that part, I was like "Yeah Darrow, here's your chance ! Screw them all ! " but then, nope. I wanted to grab him by the shoulders and shake him. To ya'll, what are your thoughts on that ?
Julie wrote: "When Darrow gets offered to work with Octavia. He should've accepted. It would've served his purpose, no ? He refused because he cares for his friend... his GOLD friends. Isn't he forgetting who he..."Darrow is nothing if not loyal regardless of color. Aligning himself with the Sovereign would have been like spitting in the eye of his friends. Octavia would have asked Darrow to do things he wouldn't have been able to do.... like kill Sevro or something just to prove his loyalty to HER and make him pay for past slights.
Darrow has a mission, and making friends is NOT part of that mission. In RR, he finds it part particularly hard, always thinking: one day, I might find myself killing this person, whom I am starting to like. He is carefull, he keeps people away from him. Loyalty is part of his personnality, yes, to the REDS, to his wife. No ?In RR, he wants to destroy them all. All of a sudden, he feels for the Golds ?
Yes, he feels for some of the Golds - those he has found that have made him realize that Golds are human and not all just arrogant monsters. Remember Darrow's encounter with Mustang after she finds out the truth of his past. He tells her that the reason he did not become Titus was because of her, Roque, Sevro, Pax - Golds who made him realize that there is good in Gold and that maybe people just need someone to show them that they can be more than what the Society tries to force them to be.That's one of the reasons the story is so interesting: it's not black and white. There are complex and very real questions of morality and motivation that are addressed and dissected throughout the series.
Are you the David who also writes in this other other group "Red Rising socitey"? If so, YOU ROCK man. You have all the right answers. If not, check him out! I'm sure you will like each other :-)
Haha, hi Julie. Thanks for the endorsement and you're awesome too! Love your reading list. By the way, I recently created a new topic in this group for people's ideas on character theme music. I'm a music fanatic so I like to do stuff like that. Check it out. Would love to see what ideas you come up with.
Well, I was about to reply something pretty close to what David say but he did it first, so I'll just say I completely agree with what he said.This is what makes the story so compeling, so complex and deep, the growth, the learning, the way Darrow realizes not everything is black and white (or red and gold). I think in this lies the incredible importance of Titus in the story: he's what Darrow would have become if he wasn't able to see the good in others and the shades of grey, not letting his anger go but not letting it control him.
He passed this test to his mission in the Institute and then again during Harmony's suicidal mission.
God, I love this story so much. It has so many layers in it I could talk about it for hours.
Remy wrote: "Well, I was about to reply something pretty close to what David say but he did it first, so I'll just say I completely agree with what he said.This is what makes the story so compeling, so comple..."
*Like button*
Really love the dichotomy of Darrow in this part.He essentially becomes a Villain in order to be a Hero.He savagely beats Cassius before his family ,kidnaps a Chiild and ignites a Civil war that will cost millions of Lives.And YET he fights for the Lowcolors and gives them oppurtunity to shine.He is both Hero and Villain
About the chapter "Bacon and Eggs" in this section...I really did like the conversation Darrow and Virginia concerning the records of inter-color romances that she had been studying. Their in character reactions and the irony of the entire conversation was wonderful.However, I am wondering one thing. Those are only the relationships that were CAUGHT. I'm wondering if any have been undetected.
I will admit that I'm hoping some suspicions of mine will be confirmed in Morning Star. :)
Eneyi wrote: "Really love the dichotomy of Darrow in this part.He essentially becomes a Villain in order to be a Hero.He savagely beats Cassius before his family ,kidnaps a Chiild and ignites a Civil war that w..."
I think that's why the next book is called Morning Star. Another title for the fallen angel Lucifer was "Morning Star." I'm almost positive it's a reference to a passage by Ovid; I'm afraid I'm ignorant about his work, but one of my former college professors quoted that passage and it was like being struck by déjà vu. Sometimes I wish I took classical literature and history instead of focusing on the 20th century.
Edited: (Okay, why does Goodreads usually delete over half my original post?? Now I'm struggling to remember what I wrote... Grrrr...)
I wrote something about the morning star, Venus, also being a symbol of war for the ancient Mayans... I'm too tired to phrase anything as prettily as I did before.
And then something about Darrow being both avenging angel and a demon from Hell (Hell being almost literal as the horrid conditions of the mines of Mars)... Also I have a feeling that Darrow will have to perform more morally questionable acts in order to fulfill his greater mission.., or something.
Trust me, it sounded a LOT better the first time around. But I just got off an eight hour night shift on about five hours of sleep, so I'm not giving many fucks right now. Lol.
Jillian wrote: "Eneyi wrote: "Really love the dichotomy of Darrow in this part.He essentially becomes a Villain in order to be a Hero.He savagely beats Cassius before his family ,kidnaps a Chiild and ignites a Ci..."
Technically "Lucifer" is Latin for "Morning Star", so that would be christian mythology.
Interestingly however, Jesus, John the Baptist, Mary, and Nebuchadnezzar are all referred to as the "Morning Star" at some point.
Personally I like "Morning Star" as a reference to one of the Zorja. A guardian of the hound Simargl in Slavic mythology. If the chains holding Simargl ever break, the hound will devour the universe and end it.
Perhaps if Darrow does break the chains, he will end the universe... Or at least end it in the way we know it.
Jillian wrote: "Eneyi wrote: "Really love the dichotomy of Darrow in this part.He essentially becomes a Villain in order to be a Hero.He savagely beats Cassius before his family ,kidnaps a Chiild and ignites a Ci..."
This is the passage that my prof referenced:
"And with the hand that once had gripped/ the scepter, Ceyx clutches at a remnant / and calls--in vain--upon his father and / his father-in-law; but above all, his lips call on his wife, Alcyone; he thinks/ again, again of her--his memories / are like an eddy... The Morning Star--that dawn--/ is dim and dark; you never would have known / that he was Lucifer--since he could not desert his station in the sky, he wrapped/ his face in thick clouds."-- Ovid, Book 11
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Golden Son is about Darrow losing track of who he is, what his mission is. Live so long amongst the dragons, and you'll think you breathe fire too. Love and ambition fuel him this book...and often to his own detriment
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All of a sudden? He cared about Golds all throughout RR. Jeopardized his mission by trying to keep Roque from the gala. Fell in love with Mustang. His best friend is a Gold - sevro. I hardly think it was all of a sudden
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This is what makes the story so compeling, so comple..."
In life, I think we all see signposts along the way. Routes we could have taken. People we might have become. Darrow sees them everywhere--Dago the Helldiver, Harmony, Titus, Cassius. Part of his growing up is learning from the mistakes of others.
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It's a large Solar System. Even the most repressive of regimes can't see everywhere...
Love Pierce's comments - just like his story telling and writing style!!
1. What's the deal with Orion? She sounds like a malfunctioning Vulcan.2. RAGNAR VOLARUS: what WS your inspiration? He reminds me a lot of Shaidar Haran from WoT.
Tooms wrote: "Jillian wrote: "Eneyi wrote: "Really love the dichotomy of Darrow in this part.He essentially becomes a Villain in order to be a Hero.He savagely beats Cassius before his family ,kidnaps a Chiild ..."
Okay, in my free time I did a little research on Ovid (which meant searching Google mostly), and he was indeed a Roman classical poet. "Lucifer" is the Latin word for morning star, and it originally has this context only, until a later translation of the Bible linked it to Satan.
The passage is from Metamorphoses Book 11, in which Ceyx, son of the morning star, is happily married to his wife Alcyone. One day Ceyx's ship is destroyed by lightning, and in her grief Alcyone commits suicide. (In the Greek version it was a punishment from Zeus because the two dared to compare themselves to Zeus and his wife Hera). The gods turn the dead couple into birds, who live in peace.
I just love the layers that this series has; you could analyze it to death and beyond perhaps what Pierce Brown intended, and still find more. I've never been able to do that with many other contemporary fiction works.
Our sincere apologies for the delays in getting this thread up, there were some technical difficulties.
This week (1/16-1/22) we're focusing on section II: BREAK.
Here a little intro to the section: Faced with annihilation, Darrow instead chooses to unleash the one thing Gold fears most: a civil war between House Bellona and House Augustus.
From reading the comments on the intro thread, we do understand that the book reads fast and it's highly possible that you might read further. That's perfectly fine! Please try to keep spoilers to minimum so that the first time readers can enjoy the experience.
As with the RED RISING re-read, the main purpose for breaking down the read is to keep the discussion focussed and if anyone has any specific questions for Pierce and/or his editor regarding a specific section.
Happy reading!
Pierce & Del Rey books