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Equal rights to go topless?
James wrote: "Tadej wrote: "Noor, behind every decision is also a motive, and those motive determines, if someone would strip in public. But if we do not know men and women characters motives, we can only pred..."
@James
You're judging too fast. I am talking here about mens from the objective site, and also, I do not hate men nor am I against women. I am hereby only for equality with my own base which is called three partite human system REI. You can found more here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
For me the feminism is what it is described in given topic.
About men being their world about themselves; this is what the theory REI claims. Where women world (generally) are more about others, and they know more about others, the mens world is more about themselves (called "rosy glasses" also optimistic view). This is general difference between men and women and we should take them as we / they are.
Once again, you're detecting in my words, that I am against men, actually, this is only objective attribute how men in generally work.
Jing Wen wrote: "So a person can be compared to an icicle, but boobs can't be candy?Also you are right talking about this "oversexualisation". Are women indifferent to being touched in the chest as being touched ..."
If someone grabs you on the foot, are you indifferent? I would try to kick at someone who grabbed my foot. Doesn't mean it's sexualized it just means "WTF ARE YOU DOING GRABBING MY FOOT?! OFF WITH YOU!" I would still feel a bit of irritation if some random stranger came up to grab my shoulder especially if I wasn't expecting it.
However, since this society has sexualized breasts and people who have grown up in this society likewise see breasts as extremely sexual objects, then grabbing a breasts would be seen as [by everyone] akin to someone grabbing a penis. I would think if someone tried to grab your penis out of the blue that it would be seen as extremely invasive and horrifying and insulting indeed. Especially if they don't know you and you don't know them.
It's not a matter of "we can only allow female-bodied people to go around shirtless once they treat being grabbed on the chest as casually as a man does," it's a matter of "this society is so fracked up that everybody and their brother and sister in this society has it pounded into them, programmed, ingrained in them, that doing so is equal to grabbing some random dude's dick." You seem to want to wait until society changes first before allowing female-bodied people to go shirtless.... sorry buddy. What changes society is through people's own actions. So, to my mind, what needs to change FIRST is the de-sexualization of the breasts and one of the ways to do that is to make it a common sight and no longer "exotic/other/taboo/hidden," which does a lot to make such things akin to genitals because the genitals are always hidden right? Anything that's "always hidden" becomes taboo, exotic by definition, and there's a lot more fuss made whenever its shown. So.... show it. Get people de-sensitized to it, until it becomes a normal ordinary thing like a shoulder or a barest wrist or ankle and boom the sexual objectification will start crumbling down.
We USED to believe that ankles were highly sexually charged things, and women's bare legs meant the same. Only like 100 years ago, I'm not joking. People had to push back and start showing those things until we just go down the street, minding our business, and don't even bat a damn eye at an exposed ankle or wrist or leg. Don't wait for society to change for you - it'll never change if you just wait around for someone else to make the first move. Be the change. Then you'll see some progress happening!
Indigo wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "We USED to believe that ankles were highly sexually charged things, and women's bare legs meant the same. Only like 100 years ago, I'm not joking. People had to push back and start showing those things until we just go down the street, minding our business, and don't even bat a damn eye at an exposed ankle or wrist or leg. Don't wait for society to change for you - it'll never change if you just wait around for someone else to make the first move. Be the change. Then you'll see some progress happening! @Indigo
This is called changing society values ;)
Absolutely! I've been to beaches in Europe and no one bats an eye. Doesn't matter if you're 60 or 20. No one seems to care, it's a very natural thing and I think it's just beautiful :) Same goes for breastfeeding out in public. It's a very natural thing to do and no one should look at them any differently. In Canada, mothers who breastfeed are protected by law and if someone has an issue with that then too bad, they will just have to get over it.
Jing Wen wrote: "Ash wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel i..."Here's where your logic goes wrong. YOU AREN"T A CHILD! I am beyond sick and tired of this flawed logic that men are incapable of controlling themselves. Dress codes in high schools are beyond sexist and I am constantly fighting them based on the premise that it's 'distracting for boys'. No, I'm sorry, you can learn to control yourself, have respect for women and their personal space no matter how they choose to dress!
My husband said it best. "It's insulting to men to be told that we can not control ourselves or our libido and so must be catered to in every aspect, to the point of controlling young girls and women. I am perfectly capable of making the right decision and being respectful regardless of how you look."
So please, do not compare body parts on a female to candy and stop comparing the male population to children. Enough of this idea of 'boys will be boys'. Boys will be responsible and mature human beings, like everyone else!
Catrice wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Ash wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say..."Men that can control themselves are the least of your problems. The problem for women all over the world are the men that can't control themselves. Let me put it in a slightly different way. Millions of people all over the world own guns legally. But it takes just one psycho to go trigger happy and the rest needs not be said.
One might argue that "it's insulting to humans to be told that we can not control ourselves and so must be catered to in every aspect, to the point of controlling guns with gun laws. We are perfectly capable of making the right decisions and not shooting whoever we want to."
Two things:One, people ARE saying that about guns. It's an argument that keeps the NRA in business and one of the biggest lobbyists in the United States.
Two, you don't find it even the SLIGHTEST bit insulting to be told that as a populace, men can not control themselves so women have to cover themselves, be careful of clothing, make up, jewelry, and etc.? I'm sorry no.
Boys in school are wearing shirts with half naked women on them and it's fine. They are wearing shirts that say "Cool story babe, now make me a sandwich", and it's fine. They are wearing saggy pants showing off their underwear and it's fine. But a girl shows a bra strap and all learning must stop!
The problem for women is not men that can't control themselves, that's a problem for MEN. It's a problem that needs to be laid at their feet. MEN should be punished for not controlling themselves. Men at a young age, hell all children should be taught to be in control of themselves. It is NOT my job or my daughters' job to make sure your son can concentrate on math and not her knee caps. It is your son's job.
Also, there's inherent sexism in that alone! You think girls aren't looking at other girls knee caps? Or at boy's shoulders when they wear their no sleeved shirts? Why are only the male populace assumed to be aroused by the site of an attractive person? Women are as well, but they are told from childhood to control themselves.
So no, I refuse to make this a woman's problem alone. MEN need to stand up and say "I am more than my libido, I am perfectly capable of doing my job no matter how the women around me dress."
It is, in the end, not that men CAN'T control themselves, it's that they are told they do not need to. That they are not responsible. THAT is the narrative that needs to change.
Catrice wrote: "Two things:One, people ARE saying that about guns. It's an argument that keeps the NRA in business and one of the biggest lobbyists in the United States.
Two, you don't find it even the SLIGHTES..."
AMEN - AMEN - AMEN!!! THANK YOU!
Catrice wrote: "Two things:One, people ARE saying that about guns. It's an argument that keeps the NRA in business and one of the biggest lobbyists in the United States.
Two, you don't find it even the SLIGHTES..."
One, people ARE saying that about guns. It's an argument that keeps the NRA in business and one of the biggest lobbyists in the United States.
My point exactly.
Two, you don't find it even the SLIGHTEST bit insulting to be told that as a populace, men can not control themselves so women have to cover themselves, be careful of clothing, make up, jewelry, and etc.? I'm sorry no.
I feel it is unfair for you to put words into my mouth. I never said that 100% of all men are uncontrollable barbarians. I merely said that the few that can't keep their lust in check are your biggest problem. Please read my example carefully. You literally said that one psycho equals to all gun owners being trigger happy.
I don't think derogatory shirts are ever right. I also agree that ideally girls and boys should have the same rights.
The problem for women is not men that can't control themselves, that's a problem for MEN. It's a problem that needs to be laid at their feet. MEN should be punished for not controlling themselves. Men at a young age, hell all children should be taught to be in control of themselves. It is NOT my job or my daughters' job to make sure your son can concentrate on math and not her knee caps. It is your son's job.
I think your logic here is very sexist. It is not a problem for men only. How about women who sexually harasses men? You just insinuated that all men are bullies and all women are victims. What happened to that gender equality of yours?
So no, I refuse to make this a woman's problem alone
I think you are missing the point here. A man who stands in the middle of the highway would get hit by a car. Regardless of who is right or wrong, the man getting hit by a car would suffer injuries and thus, it is a problem for the man. Women are suffering from this unfair treatment from society. It is the societies problem. But the fact that you get hurt by it makes it your problem .
It is, in the end, not that men CAN'T control themselves, it's that they are told they do not need to. That they are not responsible. THAT is the narrative that needs to change.
Once again, thanks for the convenient generalization. You literally contradicted your own point Two.
I don't think you were reading what I wrote. Whether or not men can or should control themselves is an issue to lay at men's feet. I stand by that. Just like how I should or am capable of controlling myself is my issue, not yours.Is it a problem for women? Obviously, as we are fighting this fight. I not once said it is a MEN ONLY problem. Only that it is also a men problem. That the idea of control is ultimately up to the person. I was stating that the excuses used for men to NOT control themselves are just that excuses.
So, read what I wrote over again.
A) I didn't put words in your mouth I sincerely asked you, twice now, how you don't find it insulting that it is assumed that you can not control yourself. You never did answer me.
B) You said there were those men that can't control themselves or their lust. If that is true, then there is a reason. The only reason acceptable is a problem mentally, in which they should be diagnosed and under care for. If you can control yourself enough to drive a car, to have a job, to be out in society, then yes, you can control your lust.
C) I did not say that the problem is men only, only that men should be the ones punished for not controlling themselves. Just as women should. If a girl decides a guy is so hot she just has to grab him, or harass him then yes arrest her! Locally there were two women that saw a 'hot guy' in a gas station and started twerking on him and coming onto him. They were found and arrested. Absolutely! If you saw what I wrote,
'hell all children should be taught to be in control of themselves. '
So yes, all children, I did NOT say just men, I did not say all men are barbarians and all women are victims. No where did I say that. You are hearing with ears of your own issues and not reading and hearing what is actually being said.
D) Convenient generalization? "Boys will be Boys" multiple articles I can insert here on unfair dress codes. Nope, not a convenient generalization. Over and over we see it. Boys are NOT being told to concentrate on studies or work and ignore the short skirts. Instead women are being told not to wear the skirts.
So again, how did I contradict myself? Let me put it more simply for you.
From a very young age, in Western society, we teach our children that boys can not control themselves via comments like 'boys will be boys' and that girls are responsible for control via unfair and sexist dress codes, victim blaming, and body shaming. That needs to change. Boys need to be taught that they CAN control themselves and girls need to be taught that it is NOT their job to shield men from anything that might interest them regarding female form.
AG wrote: "Also, no offence meant, but just because one gender is socially allowed to dress indecently is no reason for the other to want to dress the same."There is one word in there that is at the core of this whole issue. Indecent.
Whatever. It is clothing or it is lack of clothing. We will have problems as long as people connect the amount if clothing someone chooses to wear to their morals, how moral or immoral said person is. There can be a connection, or there is none.
Plus what you (general you) subjectively perceive as an immoral action, really comes from a place of superiority and a place of judgement. As long as people want to sit on their high horses and comment on various life choices of others, this discussion will continue. There are many big egos on this planet. What if all that attention would focus on one's own good deeds instead...
Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel indifferent to it."It is not like clothing stops those who want to grab and take women.
If women are aloud to walk around with exposed breast then it should stand that men would get to walk around with their testicles hanging fully exposed out of their pants...Let's call it tit for tat.As silly as that argument is to make, it really dose seem like the most fair, "equal" comparison for the idea of women feeling disadvantaged by not being aloud to go topless...Also it shows how silly this whole argument really is.
How exactly are testicles compared to breasts? I'm curious about why you chose a reproductive part of the body to compare to breasts
James wrote: "If women are aloud to walk around with exposed breast then it should stand that men would get to walk around with their testicles hanging fully exposed out of their pants...Let's call it tit for ta..."This is an OLD argument and a flawed one. One used by people that don't want to actually listen to others or think about things that are blatantly wrong. So fine make it. Testicles are reproductive organs, breasts are not.
Women AND men have breasts. Women happen to, usually, have more breast tissue than men. Both men and women find nipples to be erogenous zones, both men and women can get breast cancer, both men and women can or need bras, both men and women can lactate.
So, comparing testicles and breasts is incorrect. It's like comparing elbows and necks. They aren't the same. More accurate comparisons are breasts to breasts, nipples to nipples, testicles to ovaries.
And if this argument is 'silly' to you then why respond at all? It obviously matters to others, so your input is unnecessary as you don't care regarding the outcome either way.
I will never expose my breasts completely in public, for reasons that are my own, but it most certainly isn't ridiculous to advocate breastfeeding in public, walking topless etc. In fact I will go to my grave defending feminism the way I perceive it.You (again general you) need to read about anatomy and physiology, if you draw parallels between breast tissue and genitals.
Earlier I forgot to chime in that I know many men, who are offended by the notion that they are incapable of controlling possible urges, or that the only thing they think about when interacting with women is sex. They don't objectify constantly us women, but they are capable of acting like mature adults rather than "kids in a candy store", when discussing various topics of interest/importance.
Aglaea wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would feel indifferent t..."It is not like clothing stops those who want to grab and take women.
It's not like airport security stops terrorism.
Just put it this way. If you can feel indifferent being touched at the boobs and not go around pervert-shaming those who do it or file for sexual harassment, then by all means strip. In fact, you could start a thread for women to bare their breast and encourage men to touch them in public to show the world that there's nothing sexual about women's breast. Maybe that's the only way to change the society's mentality.
Jing Wen wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly say you would fee..."Excellent idea, thanks.
Jing Wen wrote: "Men go topless, nobody bats an eye.Women do the same and everybody loses their minds.
Why is it that society reacts so differently when the same part of the body is shown by two different genders..."
Toplessness:
I believe that BOTH sexes should be banned from going topless but only because of what I have learned from a victim of a predatorial pedophile. Us dressing in a sexy way victimizes the victim who was repeatedly made to be a victim. How? They were taught to think about doing the act 24-7-365. They strive to get a normal life with normal thoughts. You insisting on wearing a sexy outfit that ONLY has the skirt part going just above the knee ONLY when you sit down and is below the knee when you stand up even made my dad react in such a way he wanted to do unspeakable things to young people. He fought this by making sure he was always busy with something and that making sure mom knew where he was at at all times. He never allowed himself the freedom to be home alone with a kid ever.
Breastfeeding in public:
I think that there are good ways in which to breastfeed in public with OUT it being considered "going topless". If I can not see half of the boob, then she is doing it "correctly". And yes, my dad would still have issues, but even he recognizes that infants need to eat, and that breast milk is the best. What does he do then? He moves away and tries to get himself as far away from the site as he can only so that he does not do something stupid.
Cops: In general, I believe that the taser should be tried first IF and ONLY IF the person is not complying with the demands in a reasonable amount of time, taking into consideration, the physical ability of the person, whether or not the person is breastfeeding and so on. Any more force than what is absolutely necessary actually IS against Federal Laws. The problem is that 99% of the time, no one wants to prosecute it, because the evidence is just scarce enough where by, the cop could win in court, then counter sue and not only cost the taxpayer money for the failed case, but then cost us money because he sued for false arrest and won. Plus, the cop gets rewarded for being a fool. Or, in the case of murder, if you convict before you think you can win, lose in court, but then find better evidence that could keep the cop behind bars for life, you can't bring that evidence forth because of the double jeopardy rule. However, there are exceptions to this double jeopardy rule and I am not a lawyer and so can not expound on this.
Catrice wrote: "I don't think you were reading what I wrote. Whether or not men can or should control themselves is an issue to lay at men's feet. I stand by that. Just like how I should or am capable of controlli..."Catrice wrote: "I don't think you were reading what I wrote. Whether or not men can or should control themselves is an issue to lay at men's feet. I stand by that. Just like how I should or am capable of controlli..."
A) I didn't put words in your mouth I sincerely asked you, twice now, how you don't find it insulting that it is assumed that you can not control yourself. You never did answer me.
Nope I don't find it insulting for something you choose to assume. To assume is to make an ass out of u and me. If you assume something that is wrong, why should I be excessively affected by it? So assume all you want. It doesn't contribute to this conversation.
B) You said there were those men that can't control themselves or their lust. If that is true, then there is a reason. The only reason acceptable is a problem mentally, in which they should be diagnosed and under care for. If you can control yourself enough to drive a car, to have a job, to be out in society, then yes, you can control your lust.
Let us pretend you and me are sitting in the same room. You have a gun in your hand and in this particular country, there is no law that says you can't shoot someone else. Obviously I trust that you are able to control yourself enough to not shoot me because you have the mental capability and the moral capacity of an average person. So why are there still laws that say we shouldn't shoot each other? And even with those laws, why do we still read about shooting incidents almost everyday? You can diagnose and punish them afterwards. But the issue with shooters is that the damage has already been done.
C) I did not say that the problem is men only, only that men should be the ones punished for not controlling themselves. Just as women should. If a girl decides a guy is so hot she just has to grab him, or harass him then yes arrest her! Locally there were two women that saw a 'hot guy' in a gas station and started twerking on him and coming onto him. They were found and arrested. Absolutely! If you saw what I wrote,
But if said women comes up to him and lay a hand on his chest, will they be arrested?
multiple articles I can insert here on unfair dress codes.
Over and over we see it.
Ergo, generalization.
The contradiction happens because in your point Two you insinuated that men should feel "insulted" because men are all gentlemen and would never be unable to control themselves. But after that you claimed that "boys will be boys".
Aglaea wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "Also to all the women here. How would you feel if someone grabs your boobs the same way they would your shoulders? I doubt many of you can honestly ..."You know if you really want to go one step further? You get men to go topless with the women. And you give everybody a mask of the opposite gender. I honestly think it could make an impact to society.
Jing Wen wrote: "The contradiction happens because in your point Two you insinuated that men should feel "insulted" because men are all gentlemen and would never be unable to control themselves. But after that you claimed that "boys will be boys". ."
No, missing the point again. I certainly don't believe 'boys will be boys'. I explained that it is an excuse used to allow boys the idea that they do NOT have to have control of themselves. I never once said that all men are gentlemen, I think you have a SERIOUS problem of putting words in other peoples' mouths to fit your own narrative. A dangerous way to have any discussion.
And hey if you aren't insulted by the idea that you aren't capable of taking care of your own urges in a healthy manner good on you.
Catrice wrote: "Jing Wen wrote: "The contradiction happens because in your point Two you insinuated that men should feel "insulted" because men are all gentlemen and would never be unable to control themselves. Bu..."Maybe I am missing the point. Just what are you trying to say with this?
Two, you don't find it even the SLIGHTEST bit insulting to be told that as a populace, men can not control themselves so women have to cover themselves, be careful of clothing, make up, jewelry, and etc.?
Why would I be told that "as a populace, men can not control themselves."? And how is that insulting to me? Are you trying to say that men can or cannot control themselves?
Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, then you sure as Helms Deep don't deserve my Aragorn wrote: "How exactly are testicles compared to breasts? I'm curious about why you chose a reproductive part of the body to compare to breasts"Because for the simple fact that men, on average, do not have breast and, I don't wish to here the fat obesity argument because they should were shirts. Also women do not have testicles. So each part is acknowledged as being sexual to others. So if the argument is that women get to liberate parts of their bodies that are viewed as sexual to others legally in society, then in terms of equality men should be aloud to do the same. I think in terms of the body men's anatomy is far more demonized and condemned then women's. Women's bodies are looked at as beautiful. Women have held this standard forever, isn't it time that you allow men the privilege of being beautiful as well? I think it would be fitting if women would check their beauty privileges and allowed for men to un-shamefully liberate our testicles. WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT BREAST ARE BETTER THEN TESTICLES!!? Men can create life with testicles, I think it is time that men should and can be free to be proud of their great gifts.
Oh yes and one more thing just as women are aloud to breast feed in public men should not be harassed by feminist when they "MAN SPREAD," which is a discriminating term... stop trying to force us men to hide and crush our testicles in shame feminist... We men will no longer close our legs in shame...FREEDOM!!!!, stop being so sexist .
See, that's what I was thinking so I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt and see if there was a reasoning behind it, like how both produce something necessary towards infants in that testicles create what one needs to create them and breasts create what feeds them.
...From a very young age, in Western society, we teach our children that boys can not control themselves via comments like 'boys will be boys' and that girls are responsible for control via unfair and sexist dress codes, victim blaming, and body shaming. That needs to change. Boys need to be taught that they CAN control themselves and girls need to be taught that it is NOT their job to shield men from anything that might interest them regarding female form. If it were true that Boys won't be taught to control themselves, you couldn't go outside without be a victim. But still you cannot see whether or not someone has control about his hormones. Due to this and the fact that a woman normally cannot overpower a man, what speaks against it to be cautious?
Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, then you sure as Helms Deep don't deserve my Aragorn wrote: "See, that's what I was thinking so I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt and see if there was a reasoning behind it, like how both produce something necessary towards infants in that testicles ..."Yes you got it. And also both testicles and breast are both extremities outside the body that hang and society would be against seeing either.
Mod
Only parts of society, since this topic would not be relevant if all of the society around us was so brain washed as to be against seeing a normal part of the human body which has been distorted, oppressed, and tabooed.
Savannah [semi - hiatus] wrote: "James wrote: "Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, then you sure as Helms Deep don't deserve my Aragorn wrote: "See, that's what I was thinking so I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt ..."So you're with me on the testicles then?
I'm not so sure that testicles could be compared to breasts when men already have breasts to compare them to, regardless of how much or how little fat there is to make them any more or less prominent, but there is a point with what James said involving the 'man spread' he was speaking of. I do understand (or at least I do now) why something like that is something that both might cause teasing, heckling and so on and also why it is necessary, especially given the type of fashion that is followed nowadays, at least in the US. My fiance has always been a pretty respectable guy and whenever he needs to 'adjust himself' he's always politely turned away to do it, but I'd always been curious about why, so I up and asked him one day and he explained that sometimes his man parts needed to be adjusted so they weren't being crushed or because it was uncomfortable and so on. Now, being me I honestly didn't think twice after that, I considered it the same thing as needing to adjust one's underwear if it was giving you a wedgie, but not everyone reacts like that. Now, I can understand why they don't, given that its all a matter of how the action is done as anything in the front around the hip area are sexual organs which we deem need to be covered, but it is necessary all the same.I'm staying rather neutral as reading the conflicting sides is rather interesting, but that was just my little contribution regarding what James had said earlier because it piqued my interest.
Lol, basic anatomy seems very challenging.Breast <> Breast
Testicle <> Ovary
Penis <> Clitoris
It also amuses me how labiae are called vagina. Poor vagina.
Most men don't have breast, we are breast challenged... I don't think it is fair to compare ovaries to testicles. Ovaries are inside of the body and also this isn't about a comparison. This is about the right to publicly show ones external extremities proudly. If women's ovaries hung outside of their bodies and society rejected them then you would understand the pain and discretion that we men face. If you knew the fear of people seeking to physically kick men in the testicles
James wrote: "Most men don't have breast, we are breast challenged... I don't think it is fair to compare ovaries to testicles. Ovaries are inside of the body and also this isn't about a comparison. This is abou..."^is funny af. *grabs popcorn*
James wrote: "Most men don't have breast, we are breast challenged... I don't think it is fair to compare ovaries to testicles. Ovaries are inside of the body and also this isn't about a comparison. This is abou..."You do know that regardless of your gender, that area on your chest where your nipples are is called a breast right?
And just in case you don't believe me, here is a source that confirms that men and woman have breasts because it is the same body part on a man or woman with the only difference being the mammary gland that produces breastmilk.A medical dictionary defining breasts
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedict...
James said: "WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT BREAST ARE BETTER THEN TESTICLES!!? Men can create life with testicles..."Females create life with ovaries. Are you saying then that females should be allowed to then bare their stomachs and show their vaginas and talk about periods and menstrual cycles and the rest since that IS tied to the ovarian reproductive cycle and health? Just curious. Yeah breasts feed life but if you're REALLY going tit-for-tat here then testicles are the same as ovaries and if you "liberate" the testicles then by definition you would need to for the ovaries since they BOTH CREATE life. Breasts nourish and feed life. Testicles and ovaries CREATE life.
Also, both males and females have breasts. They can get breast cancer. They have breast tissue even without counting in obesity. They both have nipples. Men can even produce some breast milk under certain circumstances. Medically, the literature calls that area [which includes your pectoral muscles] as your breasts. Male breasts yes but still breasts all the same.
Heh, it's not about being "fair" or not. Physiologically / functionally , the listed organs are corresponding to one another. And since we are all about stating facts and citing sources and such, that is a fact.Don't blame me, by the way, I'm just the messenger. Someone else is to be blamed for this huge unfairness; evolution or your creator or whatever you believe in.
It is called changing society values. If in the middle age, nudity was something completely normal, in todays age and accepted values, the nudity is something forbidden. It is the way of view of people has changed, no matter how much individual senses the need to uncover his body, there is something always above him, which he is prepared to accept. In the name of modern world :)
- Tad
Indigo wrote: "James said: "WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT BREAST ARE BETTER THEN TESTICLES!!? Men can create life with testicles..."Females create life with ovaries. Are you saying then that females should be allowed..."
All you people know I was joking right?
The root is this, breasts are NOT sexual organs! Has society sexualized them? Yes, just as they do with buttocks, just as they do with lips, just as they do with children. That doesn't mean it's so.Just because there are commercials selling EVERYTHING by putting a woman in a revealing top or lacy bra does NOT mean I need to cover my breasts. Just because they turn someone on doesn't mean it's time to shame me over them. Some people get turned on by armpits! Some feet.
YOUR rights end at the tip of my nose. Or, if they are out farther than the nose, the tip of my breasts.
I have noticed that most of the people posting here are all for equal rights, real equality. They know that there are things there are things that are unfair for men in society and agree that needs to change as well! So really, how does it help at all that when some discussion comes up on something that is unfair the only response is "Well if women get to do ABC, then men get to do XYZ! You have no idea how oppressed we are as men!"
Yeah, we do, or we are trying to learn, but hijacking every thread to derail real discussion on a subject doesn't help.
James wrote: "Indigo wrote: "James said: "WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT BREAST ARE BETTER THEN TESTICLES!!? Men can create life with testicles..."Females create life with ovaries. Are you saying then that females sh..."
It is honestly hard to tell with you given the manner in which you type your posts
Catrice wrote: "The root is this, breasts are NOT sexual organs! Has society sexualized them? Yes, just as they do with buttocks, just as they do with lips, just as they do with children. That doesn't mean it's so..."Yeah because Men got together one day and all voted to be attracted to women's bodies. Men really aren't sexually attracted to women all all...We are all just lying to keep up the Patriarchy and force women to serve us...You got us Catrice.
the Testicles posts were a joke, lighten up. It was to show how silly discussions about men and women arguing about why they felt the need to expose themselves in public was. The majority of people would not do it and the majority could care less. These are very trivial matters and there are so many more important things to care about.
I wasn't Hijacking anything...again let's not take things so seriously that we can't laugh once and awhile, at others and ourselves.
Catrice wrote: "The root is this, breasts are NOT sexual organs! Has society sexualized them? Yes, just as they do with buttocks, just as they do with lips, just as they do with children. That doesn't mean it's so..."And did you really just accuse society and, i can only suppose men, of sexualizing children? Where dose this happen in society? And who is shaming you over your body? You are really inferring and superimposing a-lot of things.
Kikki. If you can't handle me at my Strider, then you sure as Helms Deep don't deserve my Aragorn wrote: "James wrote: "Indigo wrote: "James said: "WHY ARE YOU SAYING THAT BREAST ARE BETTER THEN TESTICLES!!? Men can create life with testicles..."Females create life with ovaries. Are you saying then t..."
Really didn't, "a man wanting to liberate his Testicles," give it away, most people including the moderator found it funny.
Amazing discussion. As far as I know there is also another one brilliant initiative: equal right to peeing standing up.
Indeed, any movement that hasn't found strengths to stop in time inevitably flows into idiocy.
For instance, why to me (being a man) even didn't come the idea to try to struggle for an equal right with a woman to wear mini skirts and show my bare lower extremities or to struggle an equal right with a woman to breastfeed?
Thanks God that I was allowed to be born and grow up in the right country where everything is still in their places.
Mod
Ana, you've showed a typical example of feminist demagoguery. I'm not talking about the percentage of women who can breastfeed (such percentage is not great). it's considered a deviation from the norm.
I'm talking about the biological function that is peculiar for women and for men and which feminists activists turning into privilege or a certain fetish which women should necessarily to posses.
The key word here common sense, not social rules or culture, only common sense. In the struggle for equal right to go topless, I see the same fetish.
Now nobody forbids women to go topless, there are beaches for that purpose/special nudists beaches and so on. The problem raised in the topic is not worth a damn.
Nikita wrote: "Ana, you've showed a typical example of feminist demagoguery. I'm not talking about the percentage of women who can breastfeed (such percentage is not great).
I'm talking about the biological f..."
If it's not worth a damn TO YOU, then stop discussing it. It obviously IS worth a damn to others. I've actually had some idiot send cops to my house because while on the second floor, I was nude. In my house. She caught her husband with binoculars watching. Was he told to stop being a peeping tom? No I was told to make sure I am dressed. IN MY HOUSE.
Do I enjoy places where I am allowed to be naked? Yes. However, in the vein of, there's a time and a place, the point is that it's not equal. There's a time and a place for ME to go topless, but not for men. Does it matter to me? Yes, it doesnt' matter to you. Well fine. But here's the thing if it really doesn't matter, WHY ARE YOU POSTING?? Things that don't matter to me, I don't reply on, because I don't need to.
My daughter just taught me a new phrase that is appropo I think in this thread. "Schrodinger's Douchebag"
It's the whole, I am going to offend people but as soon as they call me out on it, I'm going to pull out the "Jeez it's just a joke!" thing as if to minimize my douchebag behavior.
Nikita wrote: "Ana, you've showed a typical example of feminist demagoguery. I'm not talking about the percentage of women who can breastfeed (such percentage is not great). it's considered a deviation from the..."
I hope you are the kind of guy who never goes topless in public. Please cover your top when you are not at those "special" beaches. Do it for a year and tell me how going topless in public isn't a "privilege".
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Also you are right talking about this "oversexualisation". Are women indifferent to being touched in the chest as being touched at other unsexualized part of the body? Because we have a problem there. We can't have women being allowed to go topless if they themselves have problems being touched there. There's a reason why jewellery in shops lie locked behind glass cases. Because the shop can't be indifferent to random people taking them.