[F2F Book Discussions] May 2014: To the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf | Moderator: Angus

[Kristel]

MS. RONNIE: That's so nice of you to say since I've always considered you to be an insightful reader. :) I agree that Freud may have influenced Woolf's ideas about consciousness.

MELIZA: Thank you so much!

ANGUS: You're right, there are a wide range of factors that contributed to the emergence of Modernism. Some people trace it to the death of Queen Victoria, which almost neatly separates the 1800s from the 1900s (view spoiler)[

Another factor is the complete dominance of industrialization and mechanized capitalism that gave rise to factories, slums, economic inequality, etc. There is also the culture that the European empires have managed to find/steal by colonizing territories around the world, which contributed to a feeling of experimentation. Ezra Pound, for example, was heavily influenced by Japanese and Chinese Buddhist poetry.

But although there are works of Modernist literature that came out before the war like "The Heart of Darkness" and W.B. Yeats and H.D.'s poetry, a lot of the so-called mind-bending works came out either during or after WWI. A Portrait of the Artist came out in 1916. The Wasteland came out in 1922. Mrs. Dalloway came out in 1925. Comparing a Shakespeare poem to a Rudyard Kipling poem (400 years apart) would give you a difference in subject matter and vocabulary, and few other things. The rhyme and the meter is constant. Now compare a Kipling poem to a T.S. Eliot poem (20 years apart). You get the feeling that these writers were actively rejecting the literary values of the generation that came before them. At least, that was my impression.

Re: Virginia Woolf being shy about discussing sexual matters compared to James Joyce, I think that's a pretty weird argument for Woolf's inferiority. Full disclosure, I haven't read Orlando yet, but apparently that book contains a lot of stuff about gender, identity, crossdressing, and things that can be construed as intense romantic relationships between women. I don't particularly consider Woolf as a prudish writer. And besides, James Joyce is weirdly infatuated with talking about farts. :p (hide spoiler)]

[Tin]

Angus:(view spoiler)[The Lisbon family excites such fascination from their neighborhood, and it looks like The Ramsay family does to. But not for the same reasons, I think. I guess you can really say it is a very slight similarity. But I don't know, the poetic prose just made me think a little bit of The Virgin Suicides. And somehow when I got introduced to Lily Briscoe, the Lisbon sisters popped into my head. I feel like she could be a missing 6th sister. A little wispy and fragile like Cecilia, kind of beautiful too like Lux...I dunno. I now suddenly feel nervous about this. Hahaha. :) (hide spoiler)]

[Gwaxa]

Part I: Chapters 01 to 05

Question 04:
(view spoiler)[Summarize Part I: Chapters 01 to 05. (1 point for every 20 words, maximum of 10 points)
- James, the youngest of the Ramsay children wanted to go to the lighthouse. It has been evidenced by his thoughts how much pleasure he gets by being there. Upon hearing this, Mr. Ramsay, brutally honest man that he is, immediately shot it down. Charles Tansley, the Ramsay's guest-slash-adopted-stray, even supported this claim by commenting on the state of the wind (which was due west and probably the direction of the lighthouse).

Mrs. Ramsay thought of Tansley as that odious little man whom her children don't like because of his propensity to turn any conversation into something about himself. She pities him so instead of leaving him to the children's company, she asked him if he wanted to accompany her to town where she has some errands to run. While walking to town, Mrs. Ramsay saw the circus and told Tansley that they should all go there. Upon hearing this, Tansley started talking about how he's never been to the circus which turned to topics about his father, brother, sister, career, teaching and other things that Mrs. Ramsay tuned out. Tansley's thoughts eventually turned to Mrs. Ramsay which he thought to be the most beautiful woman he's ever seen.

When Mrs. Ramsay and Tansley got back from town, Mrs. Ramsay tried to comfort James by finding other difficult pictures to cut out. Listening to the sounds made by her family, she finally noticed that they were quiet. But after some time, she heard a rhythmical sound and then a loud cry with utmost intensity. This made her look around if anybody else heard but only saw Lily Briscoe, the Chinese eyed girl, painting her, so she tried to keep still.

William Bankes, a lodger in the same house in town as Lily Brisoce, almost knocked down Lily's painting of Mrs. Ramsay. Meanwhile, Lily Briscoe mused about the difficulty of translating a vision she has into a painting. Of her inadequacies in life and family and how she loves the Ramsay family because they are one. Lily and Bankes eventually strolled in the garden to the break in the thick hedge which showed the blue water and the white waves. Bankes thoughts turned to his friendship with Mr. Ramsay and how it stopped once Mr. Ramsay had his family. Bankes even thought about the differences between him and Ramsay and how others (like Lily) must think of him. Bankes talked to Lily about how great he thinks of Mr. Ramsay especially as a writer since Lily has never really gotten Mr. Ramsay's works. Lily then realized how much better Bankes was in comparison to Mr. Ramsay. Both of them then saw Mr. Ramsay.. He seemed to be peevishly ashamed of something which was maybe why he slammed the door shut on them.

Back to Mrs. Ramsay, she was trying to knit stockings for the lighthouse keeper's son. She asked James to stand still so she can measure if the stockings were of the correct length. James was being tiresome so she admonished him to stop being so. Upon realizing her harshness, she tried to make up to James by finding other difficult pictures to cut out.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 05:
(view spoiler)[Stream of consciousness--love it or hate it? Why? (1 point)
- Both, I guess. My OC side loves the little details presented ("-shut the door…") but the tangents (like the bit about beauty in Chapter 5) just baffle me. I can't follow (read: understand) them so for the most part I just ignore them. Though I understand that this is a stream and it's natural for tangential thoughts like those.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 06:
(view spoiler)[If the novel had more speech and action instead of the interior thoughts and feelings of the characters, how do you suppose the first chapter would unfold? (1 point)
- Short and uninteresting. It would be just ordinary actions in an ordinary day. What makes this novel (or genre) interesting is the details presented in the thoughts of the characters. Like Mrs Ramsay's impressions of Charles Tansley, Tansley's epiphany regarding Mrs. Ramsay, and even James' grudge against his father for shooting down his trip to the Lighthouse.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 07:
(view spoiler)[What are your impressions of Mr. Ramsay, Mrs. Ramsay, and Lily Briscoe? (3 points)
- Mr. Ramsay is that mean, old man that we all know of. He says honesty but we say meanness. Another thing that confused me, the shameful (?) thing Mr. Ramsay has done in Chapter 3. He seems like a brilliant writer, though.

Mrs. Ramsay seems like the kind of mother who loves her children yet always finds fault in them. Some parents are blind to their children's faults but not her. I also got the impression that she's a bit judgmental - of her children, of Tansley, of Lily Briscoe, even of her husband.

Lily Briscoe, oh I feel her. Her struggles in painting are the same struggles I have in forming my thoughts into coherent sentences. She seemed like a tormented artist without the talent. (hide spoiler)]

[Maria]

Question 04:
(view spoiler)[
Summarize Part I: Chapters 01 to 05. (1 point for every 20 words, maximum of 10 points)
Answer: James wanted to go to the lighthouse, and Mrs Ramsay, if the weather permits it, they can. Mr. Ramsay countered that the weather will not permit their going. this was seconded by Tansley, one of their houseguests.

Mrs. Ramsay doesn't like atheis Tansley, and she noticed her girls mock him. When she and Tansley went out, he found out he's insecure of his background, which may be the cause of his unfavorable attitude. Tansley is a little in love with her. lol

Lily Bruscoe also loves Mrs. Ramsay, but all the world she inhabits. Joined by her old friend William Bankes while painting, they were uneasy when Mr. Ramsay started talking ot himself (after almost tripping over her easel.

William Bankes reminisced his time with Mr. Ramsay before, and e though Mrs. Ramsay's beauty is not unordinary.

James is encouraged by Mrs. Ramsay to continue his cutouts at the end of Chapter 5.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 05:
(view spoiler)[
Stream of consciousness--love it or hate it? Why? (1 point)
Answer: Neutral? I was intrigued with Bankes previous relationship with Mr. Ramsay. *taas-kilay*
(hide spoiler)]

Question 06:
(view spoiler)[
If the novel had more speech and action instead of the interior thoughts and feelings of the characters, how do you suppose the first chapter would unfold? (1 point)
Answer: It would go faster for me, the reading. Like I told you, antokyo ako 1% pa lang! lol
(hide spoiler)]

Question 07:
(view spoiler)[What are your impressions of Mr. Ramsay, Mrs. Ramsay, and Lily Briscoe? (3 points)
Answer: Mr. Ramsay - is he gay? He's a MeMa and MaKa guy (view spoiler)[Me Masabi lang, or Maka-kontra lang, lol (hide spoiler)] Mrs. Ramsay loves her children. Lily Briscoe is opinionated. haha!
(hide spoiler)]

[Monique]

Question 8:

(view spoiler)[
Chapter 6 opens with a scene back at the house. While Mrs. Ramsay is reading a fairy tale to the deflated James, Mr. Ramsay approaches them, both seemingly dejected and angry. He takes this out on James by tickling his foot, which annoys the boy and pushes him to think of his father with hatred. When Mrs. Ramsay looks up and tells her husband that the weather might be fine for sailing to the Lighthouse the next day, he becomes angry and even cusses his wife. He thinks that Mrs. Ramsay is being impertinent and stubborn, and devoid of reason. There is a mention of a barometer and the coastguard, if Mrs. Ramsay wished for reassurance. Because of this, Mrs. Ramsay feels reverence towards him, and thinks herself not worthy of him.

Thereafter, Mr. Ramsay goes out to the lawn, contemplating on his intellectual and personal achievements, measuring his own worth against those of other men. He draws a parallel between a person’s intellectual successes and the alphabet, considering it to be some sort of measure or a gauge, or steps to quantify these successes. For himself, he thinks that he has achieved up to the letter “Q,” and that “R” is just within his grasp. He assures himself that not a lot of people can breeze through their lives to get to the letter “Q” and, perhaps, very few can ever reach up to “Z.” Since he is still only up to “Q,” he justifies this to himself by thinking that, if he is not that person who can reach up to “Z” then it is not his fault. There are a lot of thoughts about reputation, and how people will revere someone – him? – after he dies.

The next chapter describes how James thought of his father, of how he resents the latter and, well, hated him. Even at his young age, James recognizes that his father needed sympathy from his mother, but he wanted him to leave him and his mother alone. Mrs. Ramsay was the one who consistently supported Mr. Ramsay, always assuring him of his abilities, and even mentions how Tansley has put him on a pedestal, so to speak. Mr. Ramsay accepts this reassurance. However, Mrs. Ramsay somehow feels apprehensive about how other people might perceive their relationship. She didn’t want anyone to think that her husband is much too reliant on her, and as a good wife, she wanted to always feel that she is compliant to him. At this point, Augustus Carmichael, an opium user, shuffles past and, despite calling out to him, ignores Mrs. Ramsay.
Mrs. Ramsay feels bad about this, reflecting on how everyone she’s met loved her and her beauty, and therefore, she expected nothing less from Mr. Carmichael. She then thinks that maybe it had something to do with Mr. Carmichael’s wife – she calls her an “odious” person. Quite obviously, however, Mrs. Ramsay’s hurt feelings are self-serving and petty, which she recognizes herself. She turns back to reading the story to James.

Mr. Ramsay continues across the lawn. This time, his thoughts turn to Shakespeare, and how civilization would have been affected if Shakespeare never lived and became who he was. He thinks that Shakespeare wasn’t really necessary, that “the arts are merely a decoration imposed on the top of human life; they do not express it.” As he reaches an area which was being washed away by the waves, he thinks of it as a representation of his fate.

As Mr. Ramsay stands there and rues his life’s miseries, William Bankes and Lily Briscoe, who were nearby (Lily was in the process of packing away her easel and painting stuff) and sees Mr. Ramsay walking outside, talk about him. William Bankes claims that Mr. Ramsay was “a bit of a hypocrite,” to which Lily Briscoe disagrees, seeing Mr. Ramsay, for all his faults, as someone who was sincere and firm.

Chinese-eyed Lily Briscoe then notices how William Bankes stood there captivated by the image of Mrs. Ramsay, who was still reading a story to James by the window. Lily Briscoe had been in the verge of saying something but she forgot what it was when she noticed Bankes staring at Mrs. Ramsay. She sees how William Bankes feels affectionately towards Mrs. Ramsay. She continues to pack her things until she sees that Bankes had turned to her painting, and was looking at it. She feels both upset and embarrassed, thinking it to be a bad one, because she was painfully reminded of Charles Tansley’s opinion that women can neither paint nor write. She considers how she would have liked to change it all up, but that it would be tedious to undo the colors and the work she had so far done on it. She also thinks about Mrs. Ramsay’s opinion that women should marry, and that unmarried women, like Lily, must miss the best of life. But Lily Briscoe doesn’t want to get married, and she was happy being alone, just painting. Her mind wanders to that time when she had sat on the floor, her head on Mrs. Ramsay’s knee. She felt that she could learn so much about the world by being close to Mrs. Ramsay.

William Bankes studies Lily Briscoe’s painting and asks what the triangle was supposed to be, and the latter said it was supposed to be her depiction of Mrs. Ramsay and James. They then talk about paintings, light, colors, and shadows. (hide spoiler)]

Question 9:

(view spoiler)[
Mr. Ramsay’s nature as an insecure individual pushes him to this. Because of his insecurity, he becomes apprehensive about how his works will be regarded in the future, how his reputation will fare after his death. Hence, despite his inward ratiocinations and justifications about human achievements and capacities, he still ends up entertaining doubts, and thereby turns to his wife for reassurance and encouragement.

There is also a mention in the last part of Chapter 7 about Mr. Ramsay’s last book not being his "best book," which Mrs. Ramsay had gathered from William Bankes. Perhaps, it’s one of the reasons why Mr. Ramsay considered himself a failure, since his works may be considered as a measure of his achievements. It's not at all impossible that Mr. Ramsay had gotten wind of that bit of information, awakening his insecurities and prompting him to conduct a thorough re-examination of his worth and abilities. (hide spoiler)]

Question 10:

(view spoiler)[
First: Charles Tansley and Mr. Ramsey share a general negative attitude. We have read how Mr. Ramsay had been staunch about his decision that there was to be no landing at the Lighthouse the next day, even if he knew that this disappointed James very much. Charles Tansley echoed this decision.

Second: We have also read how Mr. Ramsey considered himself a failure, and he would not be consoled until Mrs. Ramsay had assured him of his greatness, needing her sympathy in order to assuage his depressing feelings. Mr. Ramsey has been consistent in his posturing that he needs that sympathy, that comfort, that compassion, in the light of his earlier musings on how the world will remember him and his works after he is gone. Charles Tansley shares the same attitude, as he appears to be insecure that what he had studied and worked on all his life will be considered insufficient or inadequate.

Third: They have both, in their respective statements and posturings, compartmentalized or segregated roles between the sexes. Mr. Ramsay, in seeking his wife's sympathy, has delegated the role of shock absorbers and/or comfort givers, so to speak, to his wife. As for Charles Tansley, his remark to Lily Briscoe that women can't paint or write shows that he regards those talents as exclusively male, that the women have a different role to play.

I think that the general negative attitude of these two men is a product of their individual insecurities, an attitude that they cannot help but display.

However, I don’t think these similarities between Mr. Ramsay and Charles Tansley are fair or accurate representations of men in general, at least insofar as I have observed. I don’t think that men are generally insecure – actually, a lot of men consider themselves as the superior sex, so there is really no reason to be insecure and, consequently, to take on a general negative attitude towards life. This is especially true for achievers who, taking Mr. Ramsay’s alphabet parallelism, have easily breezed through "A-Z" because of sheer genius or talent, who know the measure of their capabilities and cannot be so easily daunted. They are the men who do not need or require sympathy, or comfort, or soothing words in order for them to function or to feel confident in whatever they want to do – unlike our Mr. Ramsey and Charles Tansley. Perhaps, they can be considered as exceptions, but I don’t think there are too few of their kind so as to make it a general rule that, well, men are insecure and negative. So it cannot be said that the shared traits of Mr. Ramsey and Charles Tansley can be said to be representations of men in general. (hide spoiler)]

Question 11:

(view spoiler)[
Reality is truth; it is the actual existence of things. In its pure sense, reality cannot be changed nor tailored to suit one’s whims, imaginations, or desires.

On the subject of truths, the idea of "subjective truths", i.e., truth as being relative to every single person, was introduced to me during the last F2F discussion. I guess if I were to correlate it to my definition of "reality" being "truth," it would not then be too far-fetched to say there is a "subjective reality"? Meaning, what may be real to me may not be real to you, and vice versa. But it is still reality, no?
(hide spoiler)]

[Ingrid]

Agh, that scoring system :((

Haboool

[Arjaye]

q8:
Summary of Chapters 6-9:
(view spoiler)[Still on the topic about going to the lighthouse, once again Mr. Ramsay insisted that it is not possible, even the slightest. As he was being negative, so his mind. Yes, he is an intelligent man. He even described it as like the keyboard in the piano, so many notes. Like the alphabet is ranged on 26 letters, he can run over those and reached them one by one, but he was stuck at Q. He doesn't know how to move to R. Or better yet, he has doubts if he can reach Z, 'coz only one man in a generation can do that. Obviously, Mr. Ramsay is undergoing some major insecurities. He is questioning his legacy, what is he going to leave in this world. He is afraid he might be of a failure. That he will not be famous. And in this note, he always turn back for Mrs. Ramsay's reassurance. He always long for his wife's sympathies and understanding. Thus, James, who was quite irritated of Mr. Ramsay's interruption, hated him more.
But Mr. Ramsay wouldn't budge. He wanted more of those sympathies. He kept on repeating him as a failure, until his wife told him otherwise. That he has Charles Tansley looking up at him. But he wanted more, so Mrs. Ramsay comforted him, gave more assurances. Until he was satisfied and carried on to watch his children playing cricket.
Meanwhile, as Mrs. Ramsay was pondering over Mr. Ramsay's insecurities, Augustus Carmichael passed by. She shifted her thoughts on him. An opium addict, with lots of miseries in his life, who doesn't like her. But still, she went out of her way to be nice to him. Maybe, it's just for her own vanity.
Going back to Mr. Ramsay's train of thoughts, it includes now Shakespeare. He was questioning if there would be a big difference in this world if Shakespeare never existed. Does the progress of civilization depend upon great men. Are the people now greater than the people of olden times.
As he was contemplating on these, Lily and Mr. Bankes was talking about him. Though Mr. Bankes suggested him as a hypocrite, Lily thought that was not really the case. For yes, he is tyrannical and unjust, he is an honest man. And the way she looked at the couple, she thought of how people can feel this way. She was about to criticize also Mrs. Ramsay when she realized how Mr. Bankes viewed her. He is in love with her. Once again, she thought of how people can love this way.
But the painting is bad. Now she remembered what Tansley commented before..that women cant paint nor write. But when Lily and Mr. Bankes talked about her painting, she thought she had already shared some intimate moments with him. (hide spoiler)]

q9:
(view spoiler)[Mr. Ramsay is one insecure individual. Though he is quite honored and looked up to, he thinks of himself as a failure. That his work will not be deemed of importance even when he is long gone. (hide spoiler)]

q10:
(view spoiler)[Mr. Ramsay and Charles Tansley are both insecure. They both needed to be reminded of and be reassured of their given intellects just to make them feel comforted. But as to being honest, talk about the weather, they can be both insensitive to other's feelings. Add the comment of Tansley to LIly that women cant paint or write.
NO, i dont think these similarities can be a representation of men in general, because not all men are negative thinkers. Not all men are insecure. Definitely, not all men crave the sympathies and understanding nor compassion from the opposite gender. Some are just comfortable in their own skin. Some are sensitive, some are more domesticated than the others. (hide spoiler)]

q11:
Reality. (view spoiler)[It is the truth. A more physical answer would be anything that appears to our five senses. If it exists, then it is real. But talking about subjective reality? hmm.. i agree with monique.. so is it still reality then, if it depends on one's own perception? (hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Part I: Chapters 01 to 05
(view spoiler)[
Question 04:

The story started with James expecting a trip to the Lighthouse on the morrow. Being the perfect hen that she is, Mrs. Ramsay promised her son that they will do so, if the weather permits. Mr. Ramsay, on the other hand, have a very different opinion altogether, which was seconded by Mr. Tansley, a house guest. Of course, that enraged the six-years old, punctuating yet again his deep resentment for his father.

When lunch was over, everyone seemed to have vanished in a flash to avoid the insufferable Mr. Tansley. The children weren't just annoyed by him; they laugh him at his back. It was left to Mrs. Ramsay to remedy the awkwardness of such event, and so he invited him to accompany her on an errand in town. On the way, Mr. Tansley felt better being with Mrs. Ramsay, so much so that he insisted on being chivalrous by carrying her bag for her. Meanwhile, the advertisement of a circus coming to town brought about Mr. Tansley’s sobbing story about his youth and family. And that decided Mrs. Ramsay that everyone in the house should see the circus. This event ended rather peculiar, Mr. Tansley imagining himself in love with the older Mrs. Ramsay.

Back from town, Mr. Tansley reiterated that a trip to the Lighthouse on the morrow is impossible, infuriating little James yet again, and it was left to Mrs. Ramsay to sooth James. When the men of the house casted Mr. Tansley off, Mrs. Ramsay felt vindicated for the hurt he cost James earlier.

Lily Briscoe was painting when Mr. Ramsay burst out of the house, quoting Tennyson, and almost knocked her easel out. It was a relief for her though that he moved on because she doesn't like people looking at her painting. But when Mr. William Bankes appeared by her side, she seemed to be okay with it. They both took a stroll to the bay to watch the waves and discuss Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Bankes and Mr. Ramsay had been old friends, but certain aspects have drifted them apart. For him, Mr. Ramsay is eccentric, highly opinionated of himself, and neglect in providing for his family. Lily believes that Mr. Ramsay may be those things, but he loves his family.

Mrs. Ramsay took the knitted stocking and asked James to stand still so she can measure up. All the while, James deliberately fidgeted, jealous that another boy will get those stockings. Mrs. Ramsay looked up, caught by the state of her house. The house had been shabbier every summer. Yet, in spite of that, she believes her family happy and content. And that is enough for her.

The narrator ended this chapter infusing Mrs. Ramsay’s beauty with her delightful character. Impossible as it may seemed, Mrs. Ramsay has no idea how beautiful she is and how her beauty affects people.

Question 05:

If you have asked me before, I would say I hated it, because of some experiences with such device of narrative. Somehow, Virginia Woolf seems to thrive with this.

Question 06:

I suspect there will be more descriptions and quotation marks. LOL
Kidding aside, I think it would diminish the substance that Woolf tried so hard to package in this novel.

Question 07:

As far as these few chapters are concerned, Mr. Ramsay is bossy, eccentric, academic. An authoritarian father and husband.

Mrs. Ramsay is the life of her family, she simply exudes it. No wonder everyone loves her.

Lily is the 30-yr old spinster that has low self-esteem. A confusing artist, really.

(hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Okay, time to read ... your answers, haha!

Miss Ronnie, Kristel, Tin: Thanks for answering. I'd like to pursue these further but alas, time is measured.

Gwaxa:
(view spoiler)[
Since you've been baffled, and you carried on despite not being able to fully follow, is it safe to say that, for you, it's not necessary to understand everything at the moment of reading?
(hide spoiler)]

Maria:
(view spoiler)[
What made you ask if he's gay? Can you cite some gay characteristics that you gleaned from your reading/listening?
(hide spoiler)]

B. Monique:
(view spoiler)[
Hmmm, those are interesting observations on our men's attitudes, although I'm a bit intrigued that you've tagged them as negative. I'm thinking of negative in the antagonistic sense, but really, is there another way to view negativity? Anyway, you've pointed out Mr. Ramsay's insecurity a number of times and Mrs. Ramsay's role to him as a shock absorber. Can we say that he loves his wife merely because of this role?
(hide spoiler)]

Arjaye:
(view spoiler)[
Do you think that the insensitivities of Mr. Ramsay and Charles Tansley are rooted from their insecurities? Why or why not?
(hide spoiler)]

M. Louize:
(view spoiler)[
Why would you have hated stream of consciousness? Can you tell us about your previous experience of it?
(hide spoiler)]

[Gwaxa]

Angus: (view spoiler)[That would be a yes. I'd like to think that those things I couldn't understand would eventually be clear as the story progresses. If, at the end of the story, it would still be not clear to me, then that's the time it may or may not affect my rating of the book. Mostly, I just trust the author that he/she will make it worth my bafflement. :) (hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Angus wrote: "Okay, time to read ... your answers, haha!

Why would you have hated stream of consciousness? Can you tell us about your previous experience of it?"

(view spoiler)[
Stream of consciousness may tickle curiosity -a mind apart and different from the narrator. A conscious mind that may be or may not be different from the reader. It gives us an inner view of the character, a peak into their subconscious, somehow. But, most often than not, it derails the reader from the main story. It leads us into another branch of possibility, then into another. Sometimes that's good, refreshing; but it is also distracting, especially when you desperately wanted to finish the book in time.
(hide spoiler)]

I hope I've explained myself right. LOL

[Louize]

Part I: Chapters 06 to 09
(view spoiler)[

Question 08:

Mrs. Ramsay chose to read a fairy tale to sooth James that is why it was a bad timing when Mr. Ramsay chose to appear seemingly angry. As to what his father’s purpose, James couldn't care more, even with the foot-tickling involved. When Mrs. Ramsay broached the lighthouse trip once more, Mr. Ramsay severely reprimanded his wife. But, then again, he backed up a notch, and suggested to consult with the coastguard and the barometer, which eased the tension slightly.

Afterwards, Mr. Ramsay went out to the lawn, contemplating on his achievements. What brought about such thoughts was not cleared. He gauged himself using the alphabet as comparison. He concluded that he had reached the letter “Q”, but has difficulty getting to “R”. And that maybe, he will never reach “Z”, for that’s a rare thing to achieve. And if he couldn't, it’s not his fault.

Mr. Ramsay came over once more to where Mrs. Ramsay and James were sitting. He declared his total inadequacy, obviously wanting reassurance from his wife. And Mrs. Ramsay was ready enough to reassure him and stoke his pride back. All the while, we a treated to James’s views of his father. If Mr. Ramsay wants pity, then he shall not get it from James’s end. He is James the Ruthless, after all. He wanted his father to leave him and his mother alone.

As Mr. Ramsay left for the lawn again, Mr. Carmichael shuffled in. Mr. Ramsay tried to get his attention, but alas, Mr. Carmichael chose to ignore her again. Mrs. Ramsay reflected that the old man do not trust her, and that maybe the result of the late Mrs. Carmichael’s ill treatment of her husband. Mrs. Ramsay concluded that it was vanity on her part to dwell on such things and went back to reading with James.

From the lawn, Mr. Ramsay observed his wife and child, then gave a nod of approval. Both his feet and thoughts wandered once more, into Shakespeare this time. He argues with himself that Shakespeare wasn’t really necessary to the advancement of the society, which even without him, even without art, the greater good prevails. His feet brought him to the where the waves eat up the land; he quickly drew a metaphor out of this describing his own legacy in the society.

Unbeknownst to Mr. Ramsay, Lily Briscoe and Mr. Bankes observe him closely. Mr. Bankes claimed Mr. Ramsay as hypocrite, to which Lily disagreed once more. She was about to criticize Mrs. Ramsay in turn, as she was cleaning her brushes to put away, but Mr. Bankes look of complete adoration towards Mrs. Ramsay stopped her. It made her reflect on this kind of love, and considered what makes Mrs. Ramsay unique and lovable.

It was then that Mr. Bankes paid notice to Lily’s painting. Anxious, Lily braced herself for Mr. Bankes observation, waiting on his every word. Lily believed at that moment Mr. Bankes and she shared a very intimate moment.

Question 09:

There was a mention in Chapter 7, Mrs. Ramsay quoting Mr. Bankes, that Mr. Ramsay’s recent book was received as “not his best book”. Perhaps, Mr. Ramsay got wind of this (or maybe Mr. Bankes told him directly), and considered himself a failure. He entertained thoughts of how his works and reputation will be reflected upon in the coming future.

Question 10:

Both men are eccentric, academic, and arrogant on the outside; but with complete low self-esteem. They relish on the approval of others, for Mr. Ramsay it’s his wife. It seemed unfair to generalize men as such though.

Question 11:

Oh, dear. What a question!
Reality depends on the truth each individual upholds, and truth always relies on the telling.

(hide spoiler)]

Angus: I just need to add, that I adored Juliet Stevenson's acting, but I do love her narration more. It's exquisite!

[Arjaye]

Angus to Arjaye: Do you think that the insensitivities of Mr. Ramsay and Charles Tansley are rooted from their insecurities? Why or why not?

(view spoiler)[
Men always strive to be the dominant ones. Back on those days, they built a wall between the roles of men and women in the society. Men are the decision makers, providers, having the mental capacity to establish a better life for the family, They were the head and had the last say on things. On the other hand, women are the domesticated ones tending for the welfare of the home, the children and the husband. They supposed to be the weaker party, but proven otherwise in some episodes wherein Mr. Ramsay actually needed sympathy from his wife. When he kept on referring himself as a failure, he really wanted his wife to understand him and reassure him. Same with Tansley, resulted Mrs. Ramsay being nice to him after learning he came from a humble background, and had not experience going to the circus.
The answer is YES. Giving in to their insecurities meant a big deal for men. Giving in to their insecurities means accepting weaknesses and lowering their value and importance in the eyes of the society. So they play tough, act tough. This, however, evolving to some unpleasant behaviors, such as insensitivities. Because they cannot tolerate emotional feeling to be dancing around them and declaring them such a wimp and holding them unsatisfactory. Then they ignore other people's feelings.
Disclaimer: But as ive said before, men are not like these, in general. I just took the case of Mr. Ramsay and Tansley. :) (hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Hello, it's Friday and why are you answering? :D

Gwaxa, Arjaye, thanks for indulging me with additional answers.

As for Mommy Louize:
(view spoiler)[
I think I get your drift regarding stream of consciousness, although I would have to argue that to derail the reader off the plot is the point because the plot is not the point. Regarding reality, I felt that it was begged to be asked because Mr. Ramsay is a metaphysician after all. He's making his way through the alphabet, from A to Z, but could not finish "R". What is "R"? Can it not stand for Reality? Or do you think there is nothing more to "R", that it's just a mere letter the author chose and does not have to represent anything?
(hide spoiler)]

[Meliza]

Question 8
(view spoiler)[Mrs. Ramsay looked at his husband and sensed that he was anguished. Mr. Ramsay approached and tickled James's foot that made the boy angry. They talked about going to the lighthouse again, Mrs. Ramsay stating the possibility of a fine weather while Mr. Ramsay getting angry due to his wife's irrationality. Mrs. Ramsay then contemplated her husband's lack of consideration for others but stated that she still have a great reverence for him. Mr. Ramsay walked on and contemplated on his achievements in life. He knew that he achieved a lot more than other men but is struggling to achieve the next level of greatness, comparing it to reaching Q and then trying to reach R. But he comforted himself by saying that only one man in a million could reach Z so it was not his fault.

James thought again of how he hated his father, and how his father took energy from his mother. Mr. Ramsay came over and told them that he was a failure. Mrs. Ramsay reassured him of his achievements and then her husband left again to watch the other kids playing cricket. Mrs. Ramsay went back in reading a fairy tale to James. It was also said that she doesn't want to feel better than her husband. Carmichael then passed, Mrs. Ramsay asked him if he is going indoors.

Carmichael didn't answer. Mrs. Ramsay thought that he wasn't happy and doesn't trust her maybe because of his wife. She suspected that her being nice is a vanity and thought that Carmichael's dislike of her is due to her pettiness. She continued reading to James. Mr. Ramsay then thought about Shakespeare. He thought about the sea and the waves. Biscoe, on the other hand, was putting away her painting stuff.

Biscoe and Bankes talked about Mr. Ramsay while putting away her brushes. Bankes criticized Mr. Ramsay. Biscoe was about to criticize Mrs. Ramsay when she noticed how Bankes adored her. She looked at her painting and said that it's bad. She recalled Tansley saying that women can't paint. She again turned her thoughts to Mrs. Ramsay. Bankes stopped staring at Mrs. Ramsay and looked at Biscoe's painting and asked the meaning of the triangle. She told him that it represents Mrs. Ramsay reading to James. They then talked about light, dark, etc. Biscoe felt that she shared an intimate connection with Bankes. (hide spoiler)]

Question 9
(view spoiler)[I believe Mr. Ramsay has a desire to be significant in this world. He wants his ideas to be remembered forever. But he knew that this could not happen since everything is ephemeral, even Shakespeare. He longs for greatness but thinks that he's stuck in Q. He wanted to reach R but accepted that not everyone could reach Z. (I don't know what I'm saying. Haha.) (hide spoiler)]

Question 10
(view spoiler)[I think Mr. Ramsay and Tansley are both inconsiderate to the feelings of others. Ramsay bashing their trip to the lighthouse and Tansley agreeing. Also, this shows when Tansley said that women can't paint. Also, they are both insecure and need others to feed their ego.

I don't think they are representations of men in general although I know a lot of men who are similar to them. Heh! (hide spoiler)]

Question 11
(view spoiler)[Reality is something that exists, something that really happened, a fact. But I think not everybody could understand what is real and what is not. Now, I'm confused. :D (hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Angus wrote: "As for Mommy Louize:

At talagang may special question ako? hehehe
(view spoiler)[

I think I get your drift regarding stream of consciousness, although I would have to argue that to derail the reader off the plot is the point because the plot is not the point.

Yes, of course. We both have read Auster, so we agree that the plot is not always the point. I should make it clear though that I did hate stream of consciousness because they have the ability to make you think beyond the plot, thus taking more time than my average reading. hahaha

Regarding reality, I felt that it was begged to be asked because Mr. Ramsay is a metaphysician after all. He's making his way through the alphabet, from A to Z, but could not finish "R". What is "R"? Can it not stand for Reality? Or do you think there is nothing more to "R", that it's just a mere letter the author chose and does not have to represent anything?"

Oh, I see. I'm sorry, but I regarded "R" as another stage of achievement. Another success to add in his feather. It's just that the question of Reality brought me back to my college days. Something a professor would ask for an essay. :)
(hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Part I: Chapters 06 to 09
(view spoiler)[

Question 08:
Mr. Ramsay was in one of his eccentric moods again, dramatically spouting lines from a Tennyson poem. Lily and Mr. Bankes overhear him but pretend not to notice.

Mr. Ramsay tries to placate his disappointed son by tickling his leg, but James rejects the peace offering. When Mrs. Ramsay mentions that she is trying to finish the stockings to bring to the lighthouse tomorrow. Mr. Ramsay is incensed by her apparent defiance and curses her. Mrs. Ramsay is hurt but remains silent and in the next moment, Mr. Ramsay regrets his outburst and tries to make it up to her. He will call the Coastguard tomorrow, if she likes. She is very much appeased by his words and feels unworthy of his affection.

Mr. Ramsay walks out into the lawn and returns to his reveries pondering on his intellectual achievements. He thinks of it in terms of going through the alphabet. He feels his achievements have gone as far as Q, a feat not many in England could speak of. He has difficulty in picturing how he will reach R and realizes he will never make it, much less reach Z. To counteract his feelings of failure, he imagines himself the courageous leader of a doomed expedition (Tennyson’s poem still very much in his mind). He concludes that no one will blame him for failing because he was the brave soldier who fought valiantly to the end.

Mr. Ramsay comes into the house again to speak to Mrs. Ramsay. James is consumed with hatred for his father. He sees Mr. Ramsay as a despot who rules the family oppressively. But most of all, James hates how his father intrudes on his relationship with his mother. Mr. Ramsay speaks of being a failure. Mrs. Ramsay knows her husband was seeking her sympathy so she does her best to reassure him. With his confidence restored, Mr. Ramsay once again leaves the house to watch the children play cricket. Mrs. Ramsay is overcome with exhaustion. She worries that others may see him as dependent on her, that she was better than him. It burdens her to feel that she could not tell him things like the greenhouse needing repairs or that his last book was not his best. As if to shake off the bad thoughts, she graciously calls out to Mr. Carmichael as he passes by. “Going indoors Mr. Carmichael?”

Mr. Carmichael ignores Mrs. Ramsay and she is hurt by the offense. She feels he doesn’t trust her and blames it on the humiliation he suffered from his overbearing wife. Mrs. Ramsay feels that she has never had a problem of making people like her and wonders whether her concern about Mr. Carmichael’s aloofness is merely her vanity surfacing.

Out on the lawn, Mr. Ramsay resumes his contemplation which leads him to think on his life’s purpose. He thinks about the inevitability of human ignorance and that his fate and his gift was his ability to fight against human ignorance for the sake of mankind. This, he feels, is what earns him the gratitude and devotion of others. Yet, as he looks upon his wife and children, he finds himself unwilling to pursue those lofty ideals. He finds consolation in his family life but is unable to say, this is what I like.

From their side of the lawn, Lily and Mr. Bankes observe the Ramsays and discuss their opinions of the couple. As they bring out their feelings about the couple, it became clear to Lily that Mr. Bankes was a little in love with Mrs. Ramsay. Lily turns to her painting, disappointed in her work that afternoon. It makes her think of Mrs. Ramsay and how she wanted to discover Mrs. Ramsay’s essential spirit that made her beloved by everyone.

Mr. Bankes moves to look at her painting. Nervously, she allows him. Mr. Bankes is thoughtful and interested. He asks questions about her painting and she explains her purpose to him. It makes her happy to talk to him about her painting, as if they were sharing something profoundly intimate.

Question 09:
I suppose he thought he would be like the other academicians who had become well-known upon retirement. Mr. Ramsay has been at his career for many years now and is close to retirement. He still had not reached that pinnacle of success he had envisioned for himself and, given the time left to him, does not see the possibility of ever achieving his vision.

Question 10:
Both men take pride in being academicians and intellectuals. They have little regard for abstract concepts and deal only with scientifically based, logical ideas. While they feel intellectually superior to everyone else, both take pains to hide their strong feelings of self-doubt.

Throughout history, Intellectual superiority has often been regarded as a masculine trait. Thankfully, the Dark Ages are over. :)

Question 11:
Reality is everything in the universe that exists. It is not dependent on anything for its existence. It just is. The way I understand it is that truth is different from reality. Truth is dependent on reality for its existence and is based on experience. My simplistic example is, say you have an apple on a table. The reality is the object you see on top of the table. The truth is that it is an apple because that is what you have been taught. Something like that. I’m sure DC and Ycel can explain it much better. :)
(hide spoiler)]

[Tin]

Question 8: (view spoiler)[ Mrs. Ramsay is reading a fairytale story to James when they were interrupted by a peeved Mr. Ramsay who, for some reason, tickles James' foot to the boy's annoyance. Mrs. Ramsay then mentions going to the lighthouse again, and that irks Mr. Ramsay who thinks his wife is being absurd.

Mr. Ramsay then goes out to the lawn to do some hard core thinking. He contemplates about success and how he is now on "Q" but is having difficulty reaching "R." Surely many men haven't even gotten as far as Q, says he. "I'm pretty sure I'll be fine and dandy!" (Okay he did not say that last bit. Dr. Seuss would, if he wrote To the Lighthouse) So he says that maybe he isn't made to reach "Z". He then goes back to stand outside the window where his wife is reading to their son James, looking for some comfort because he feels he is a failure for not being one of those to reach Z or even R. Little James is annoyed because his dad yet again, interrupts them! This impertinent, bubble bursting, party pooping, raining on his parade guy! But Mrs. Ramsay assures his husband still. She told him that there is Charles Tansley who worships him. But Mrs. Ramsay feels a bit unraveled by this act that she began to think about what the neighbors will think about Mr. Ramsay relying on her instead of the other way around. And about being afraid to tell him about house expenses and the not so successful book of his, a midst this vulnerable episode from her husband.

Then she looks up from her book to see Mr. Carmichael shuffle past. They took Mr. Carmichael in, as his wife threw him out. But the guy doesn't trust Mrs. Ramsay, on account of the wife. This annoys Mrs. Ramsay because everybody really likes her save for this guy. But then again, she thinks that it's her vanity coming into play when she thinks about being nice to this guy.

We go back to Mr. Ramsay who then thinks about how there are great men and whether they make up civilization. But what about the lift guy in the tube? Aren't they just as significant? This unsettles him and he soon drifts in deeper contemplation about leaving a mark in the world.

William Bankes and Lily Briscoe are somewhere in the area and are observing the Ramsays. Mr. Bankes says that Mr. Ramsay is a hypocrite to which he sort of wanted Lily to agree, but did not for she thinks he is the most sincere of men. Lily was supposed to say something critical of Mrs. Ramsay but then she saw how Mr. Bankes was looking at the former with such reverence that she forgot what she was about to say. Lily then got lost in her thoughts about how lovely Mrs. Ramsay is. She wanted to be in unity with her and was drawn to her like a bee to the hive. She soon realizes that Mr. Bankes is looking at her painting, and felt herself cringe at the scrutiny but in the end she felt like she shared something profound with Mr. Bankes. (hide spoiler)]

Question 9:(view spoiler)[ I think Mr. Ramsay is one of those people who are just hard on themselves. No matter what greatness he achieves, in his mind, he falls short of it. Or it could be because he heard that his book did not do so well and that made all of his doubts come out to play inside his head. (hide spoiler)]

Question 8:(view spoiler)[ Both men are academic types and there is this part where it was mentioned that Tansley liked to walk up and down with Mr. Ramsay and discuss who had won this or that, who was a first rate man, who was brilliant...etc. I feel like they both place great value over achievements/success. Also there is this part where they said that Charles would go to picture galleries and ask people whether they liked his tie. Haha. So I feel like he seeks assurance just like Mr. Ramsay does.

But I don't think men in general are such. Not all. But wait, what you mean by this question, is like, are men usually egotistical? Someone has to constantly stroke their pride? Much like when we say men are more visual? (hide spoiler)]

Question 11: (view spoiler)[Eeek! Tough question. Reality is what is?? Lol. I think I may have seen too many sci-fi movies that I am now having difficulty answering this. But anyhow, I think reality is what I perceive. What I can see, feel, taste, smell, hear, touch. It doesn't matter if it's in my mind only, it's reality if it feels real to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Krizia Anna]

I took a course in coursera tackling this book. Am I late to join now?

[Krizia Anna]

Sorry now lang
Question #1
Allende
House of the spirits no review
Portrait in sepia no review
Ernest hemingway
The sun also rises no review
Franz kafka
Metamorphosis with review
Country doctor with review
Virginia woolf
To the lighthouse with review

We did study e.e cummings back in HS counted ba yun?

[Angus]

Happy Mother's Day to every mom in our group and to Mrs. Ramsay. :)

Mommy Louize: Lahat naman merong "special" questions, hihi, so don't feel pressured. ;)

Meliza:
(view spoiler)[
It's Briscoe, not Biscoe. It might look like Biscuit if one is dyslexic, hehe. And hmm, since you know a lot of men who are like Mr. Ramsay and Tansley, do you think that the men that you know are less modern because of the attitudes that they have in similar with the two men (after all, Mr. Ramsay and Tansley are a century apart from the modern men)?
(hide spoiler)]

Miss Ronnie:
(view spoiler)[
I guess for more information on the nature of truth and reality, we should refer people to the Philosophy Buddy Reading, eh? Regarding Mr. Ramsay's struggle to fight ignorance, do you think that his being a brave soldier validates his intellect, or is the thought (or poem) merely a balm to soothe his battle wounds (after all, he has failed, so to speak)?
(hide spoiler)]

Tin:
(view spoiler)[
Your summary made me laugh mostly because of the Seuss reference. And regarding the question to my question, I didn't mean anything by it (I was merely being vague to open up a lot of avenues for discussion). So yes, we may put it that way: are men usually egotistical? Someone has to constantly stroke their pride? Much like when we say men are more visual?
(hide spoiler)]

Krizia Ana: Yes, you are late, hahaha, but that doesn't mean that latecomers are not allowed. So come and join us! We'd love to hear from you. :) (I suddenly miss Coursera.)

[Krizia Anna]

Question #2
Somebody said that this novel was autobiographical in a way. As I remember from the course, this book is about her mother and father's relationship :) as i remember correctly. Hehe

[Krizia Anna]

Ahhh andami ng questions, anyway di na lang to for the points but i'll answer in a cluster na lang :)

At that time that I was reading it I feared that i will not be able to finish the book on time, that happened to be true Haha! The flow of the story was soooooo slow so I was a bit anti-stream of consciousness. I do understand what was happening but it was still confusing,
I do like Mrs. ramsay. The others were "meh". Mr. ramsay I did not like, he's weird.

[Angus]

Hello, I've tallied your points and they are on the other thread. For those of you who have answered Questions 08 to 11, no more editing, okay? For the rest, you may still answer the two batches of questions. Kindly check the schedule below:

Questions 08 to 11: Until May 14, Wednesday, 11:59PM
Questions 04 to 07: Until today, 11:59PM. You may still answer after this but they will no longer earn points k.
Questions 01 to 03: You may still answer them but they will no longer earn points k.

Questions for Chapters 10 to 16 will be posted later, 9PM.

Krizia: Carry on! I'd still read your answers. :)

[Angus]

Part I: Chapters 10 to 16

Question 12:
(view spoiler)[
Summarize Part I: Chapters 10 to 16. (1 point for every 20 words, maximum of 10 points)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 13:
(view spoiler)[
"Children never forget," "The greenhouse would cost fifty pounds,"--why do they keep recurring in Mrs. Ramsay's mind? (1 point)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 14:
(view spoiler)[
Lily Briscoe rejects the notions of Mrs. Ramsay (women cannot know life completely until they have married) and Charles Tansley (women were not made to be painters or writers). What are your thoughts on these notions? (2 points)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 15:
(view spoiler)[
Describe the relationship between Mrs. Ramsay and Lily Briscoe. Do you think that the men surrounding them deny them of their social power and artistic vision? (2 points)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 16:
(view spoiler)[
Compare and contrast the world views of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay. (2 points)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 17:
(view spoiler)[
What role does Lily Briscoe play in the relationship of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay? (1 point)
(hide spoiler)]

Score Boosters:
(view spoiler)[
If you post within three hours after the questions are posted, total score is multiplied by four.
If you post any day, between 2:00AM to 5:00AM, total score is multiplied by three.
If you post any day, between 5:00PM to 8:00PM, total score is multiplied by two.
If your post is edited outside these times, multiplier is nullified. Example: you posted your answers one hour after the questions are posted but you edited your answers four hours later, you lose your multiplier.
Regular points on all other times.
(hide spoiler)]

[Meliza]

Angus: (view spoiler)[ (view spoiler)[Wait, natatawa ako sa Biscoe. I should have written Lily na lang. Haha! (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[I think they're not less modern. I just find those men (those I know that I'm talking about) who are achievers, competitive and academic, were also those who are egotistical and insecure, just like Mr. Ramsay and Tansley. (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Monique]

BUDDY: (In reply to your follow-up question) (view spoiler)[I think part of the reason Mr. Ramsay loves his wife is because of that, that he can look to her for comfort and reassurance whenever his insecurities get the better of him. Yes, I may concede that he loves her also because of that, but I hope it's not the sole reason! (view spoiler)[Also, I think answers to follow-up questions should earn points. Haha! (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Buddy: They do earn two points each noh, hahaha! I mentioned it somewhere here. Kaya nga I try hard to think of one per participant para fair. ;)

[DC]

Just catching up on the discussion questions.
Note: I've got a couple of actual To The Lighthouse spoilers in the spoiler tags below.

Part I: Chapters 01 to 05 (view spoiler)[

Question 04:
PASS. Haha!

Question 05:
Stream of consciousness--love it or hate it? Why?
This actually depends on the writing, I think. I found Woolf's stream of consciousness writing refreshing, and quite more palatable as compared to, say, James Joyce :)


Question 06:
If the novel had more speech and action instead of the interior thoughts and feelings of the characters, how do you suppose the first chapter would unfold?
Everything wrapped up in 10 minutes or less. Heh.

Question 07:
What are your impressions of Mr. Ramsay, Mrs. Ramsay, and Lily Briscoe?
By now, I'm 90% done with the book. Initially, however, I disliked Mr. Ramsay for being overbearing. I liked Mrs. Ramsay because of how she acts toward James. Lily seemed interesting, but I didn't understand her in the initial chapters.

(hide spoiler)]

Part I: Chapters 06 to 09 (view spoiler)[

Question 08:
Again, I pass. :)

Question 09:
Why does Mr. Ramsay doubt his own thoughts?
He's a philosopher, and he lives with philosophizing. Hahaha, respect :)

Question 10:
What are the similarities of Mr. Ramsay and Charles Tansley? Are these similarities a representation of men in general?
I didn't get what they were at first, but I suppose it's because they're both rather idealists, living in the realm of thought. Charles Tansley being "an atheist" probably means that he's thought the matter through and loves to debate. Perhaps that is also why Mr. Ramsay was drawn to him.

Representations of men? Nay. After all, (view spoiler)[Mr. Bankes and Mr. Carmichael and James and Paul have yet to show :D
(hide spoiler)]

Question 11:
What, for you, is reality?
I cannot believe that this is just awarded one point, hahaha. For me, reality is relative. It is difficult to understand. It is ironically fraught with idealism. It is how we act and think, versus what we believe in and think we do. It's difficult to pose this question to me without going into the discussions a la Philosophy thread :D

(hide spoiler)]

Part I: Chapters 10 to 16 (view spoiler)[

Question 12:
Yup, still a lazy git. Pass!

Question 13:
"Children never forget," "The greenhouse would cost fifty pounds,"--why do they keep recurring in Mrs. Ramsay's mind?
I was rather saddened by the "children never forget" one, especially since (view spoiler)[SPOILER ALERT(view spoiler)[we will see later on that this notion by Mrs. Ramsay is true (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]. I particularly try not to be unpleasant towards children because of this, because how can we expect them to understand what we, as already rational beings, could?

As for the recurrance, well, as a busy housewife and mother of so many children, she simply must do what she can to remember little details. By this time, I believe that I thought of her as a capable woman, a thoughful mother.

Question 14:
Lily Briscoe rejects the notions of Mrs. Ramsay (women cannot know life completely until they have married) and Charles Tansley (women were not made to be painters or writers). What are your thoughts on these notions?
On marriage: I think that this could be true, but only because of a certain angle. I can always speculate what it means to have children, be married, etc., but I would not quite be able to know how it feels like, unless I actually step into those shoes. However, life is relative, reality is relative :)
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
On women painters and writers: I laughed. So typically Tansley, so typical. I think that it's funny, particularly because Woolf, the author, is herself a woman. I suppose it's a kind of arrogance prevalent among those times? Or even of times today. Sexist, yes. I do not agree with this notion, of course.

Question 15:
Describe the relationship between Mrs. Ramsay and Lily Briscoe. Do you think that the men surrounding them deny them of their social power and artistic vision?
No. I think that these women have bloomed despite, because of it. They may have gone to other courses of life, but they remain with social power (see Mrs. Ramsay's power to charm) and artistic vision (see Lily's canvas and her thoughts).

Question 16:
Compare and contrast the world views of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay.
Mr. Ramsay: practical, yet a little idealistic. Patriarch.
Mrs. Ramsay: feminine, yet grounded. Strong mother figure.

Question 17:
What role does Lily Briscoe play in the relationship of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay?
Funny thing is, I'm still trying to understand this. Hope to gain insight from fellow question answerers :)

(hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Krizia, thanks for answering the past questions. If you have time, please do catch up and drown with us. :D

Meliza, Buddy, thanks for the follow throughs. :)

Camille:
(view spoiler)[
The reality question is only one point because it's only one question (I don't really care how looong anyone wants to answer for in the end, it is still one question). Fair enough? Hehe. And no, I won't give you follow up questions unless you answer Questions 08 and 12. I can be a lazy git as well. :P
(hide spoiler)]

[Monique]

Question 12:
(view spoiler)[
Chapter 10 continues from the scene where Lily and William are talking about Lily’s painting, and Cam, one of the younger daughters of the Ramsay couple, dashed past. Mrs. Ramsay had asked Cam to ask Mildred, the cook, if Minta Doyle and Paul Rayley had already come back from their walk. Because of the feedback that they haven’t returned yet, Mrs. Ramsay – who was, by this time, still reading the story to James – thought that this means Minta must accept Paul, meaning, accept any proposal for marriage. She thought that if Minta should go traipsing around the country with Paul – notwithstanding the fact that Andrew, another Ramsay son, was with them, because anyway Andrew wouldn’t be bothering with their conversation – she could not say no to a marriage proposal. Mrs. Ramsay thinks of Minta’s parents, particularly the mother, who had once accused her of stealing her daughter’s affections. Then Mrs. Ramsay thinks about her children: Prue, Andrew, Nancy, Roger, Jasper, and Rose, and when she lamented to Mr. Ramsay about them not being happy again, she was rebuked. Then she thought of life and their transactions. She finally finishes reading the story to James, after which Mildred fetches him and once again, she knows how sad he is about the Lighthouse.

With James gone, Mrs. Ramsay continues to knit and ruminates about Life again. As she looks up from her knitting, she sees her husband pass by, who thought about how he had lost his patience over the issue over the Lighthouse. He then thought how beautiful his wife is, and rued how he is unable to protect her. Mrs. Ramsay then took a green shawl, wrapped it around her shoulders, and went to her husband. Together they strolled over to the greenhouse and talked about the children, Charles Tansley, Mrs. Ramsay’s Aunt Camilla, and Andrew’s scholarship. At this, Mrs. Ramsay is reminded again that Minta and Paul, with Andrew, have not come back yet. When they reach a certain area in the garden where they could see the Lighthouse, she refused to look at it and instead, looked the other way, towards the town lights. Mr. Ramsay, on the other hand, thought about how when he was Andrew’s age, he used to walk around town with only a biscuit, and nobody would bother him. But times have changed, and he is now the father of eight children, and then he suddenly thinks that he would written better if he were not married, which Mrs. Ramsay had guessed. And then they strolled some more until they see Lily and William, retreating, and Mrs. Ramsay (again) thinks, oh they must marry! :/

Lily and William continue their talk about paintings, and eventually they come upon the Ramsays, who were watching the children throwing catches. William agrees to join them for dinner that night. As Prue runs up to catch a wayward ball, Mrs. Ramsay again asks whether Minta, Paul, and Andrew have already come back, and whether Nancy had gone with them. It appears that Nancy had gone with them, as well.

The story segues to Minta and Paul, who were at that moment taking a stroll and talking. Andrew and Nancy were wading in the water while Minta and Paul were by the edge of the cliff. Somewhere, Minta loses her grandmother’s brooch but since the water was already coming in, they had to leave. Paul pacified Minta and kept thinking that when they got back, he had to tell Mrs. Ramsay that he had asked Minta to marry him, being the worst moment of his life. He feels Mrs. Ramsay to be responsible for it.

Chapter 16 sees Mrs. Ramsay preparing for that evening’s dinner, with Jasper and Rose choosing her necklace for her. (hide spoiler)]

Question 13:
(view spoiler)[The first statement, perhaps in order to drive home her point that little James would never forget that his own father refused his wishes to go to the Lighthouse the next day. I think Mrs. Ramsay still wanted her husband to change her mind about going to the Lighthouse, and was trying to play up her husband’s guilt feelings by saying, in effect, that James won’t ever forget that incident.

As to the second statement, perhaps because Mrs. Ramsay wanted to tell it to her husband but, because of the steepness of the amount and the possible negative reaction of Mr. Ramsay, was trying to find the perfect time to tell it. So in between her thoughts, the amount it would cost to repair the greenhouse kept straying into her thoughts. (hide spoiler)]

Question 14:
(view spoiler)[On Mrs. Ramsay’s notion that women cannot enjoy life until they are married, I think it’s a crock of bull. Yes, I know that things were different then but look at Lily Briscoe – she bristled at the idea that she needed to be married in order to “know life completely.” I am married, myself, but I think I can enjoy my life even if I were single and/or unattached. I don’t think any woman needs a man in order to “know life completely.”

On Charles Tansley’s opinion that women can neither paint nor write, more bull. It’s completely sexist. These statements relegate women as the inferior gender, which should not be the case. (hide spoiler)]

Question 15:
(view spoiler)[I think that Lily looks up to Mrs. Ramsay for maternal guidance and inspiration, notwithstanding the fact that Lily disagrees with the latter’s opinion about women and marriage. Lily regards Mrs. Ramsay with reverence and respects her, and that’s always a good thing. On the other hand, Mrs. Ramsay thinks – in her messianic complex way – that she is responsible for Lily’s well-being and only wants the best for her. Their relationship is akin to a mother-and-daughter one, complete with divergences in opinions.

Yes, the men in their life do that, but it’s different for the two women because with Mrs. Ramsay, I think she has already acquiesced to the idea that she must be subservient to her husband, that that was her role as the wife. As for Lily, she still resists the idea that any man can curtail her social power and artistic vision, because she knows what she wants and that she can carry out her desires by herself. (hide spoiler)]

Question 16:
(view spoiler)[(view spoiler)[Okay, I’m not sure about “world view” but I’ll try. :) (hide spoiler)]
Mr. Ramsay is brash, impatient, and crude. He is also a selfish and insecure person. These insecurities tend to crop up a lot, and whenever they do, he turns to his wife for comfort and security. On this score, I go back to your previous question of whether Mr. Ramsay loves his wife because of this (and I answered yes, but I hope it isn’t the only reason!) and I still stand by that answer, except that I’m qualifying it by saying that it’s the PRIMARY reason why Mr. Ramsay loves his wife. Also, this same insecurity impels Mr. Ramsay to turn on his son James and adamantly refuse his wish to go to the Lighthouse. Even if there was a valid reason (the weather), I think it was impetuous of Mr. Ramsay to say over and over that they cannot go to the Lighthouse, effectively trumping on Mrs. Ramsay’s efforts to assuage the child’s feelings.

On the other hand, Mrs. Ramsay has a warm, kind, and caring nature about her that shines whenever she acts patiently and decently towards others. She is quite obviously a loving mother, and looks out for the general welfare of practically everyone she knows. Whereas she is a good, benevolent person, her husband is crude and hot-headed. (hide spoiler)]

Question 17:
(view spoiler)[Okay, I’m really not sure yet, but I think she can relate to both Ramsays in her own way. By that, I mean there’s a little of Mr. Ramsay and Mrs. Ramsay in Lily, but I’m not sure what her role is exactly in their relationship. Perhaps it’s because of this that she can make one spouse understand the other [except that I think the spouses DO understand each other (in their own ways) and have no need of a go-between]. (hide spoiler)]

[Arjaye]

q12:
Summary of Chapters 10-16:
(view spoiler)[
Cam, one of the daughters of Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay, briefly opened Chapter 10. She almost knocked over the easel Of Lily, even Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay, though the latter called for her. She Just stopped when her mother called the second time around.

While still reading to James, this time, we were in for the Mrs. Ramsay's mind. She thought about Paul and Minta, wondering if she already accepted or refused. It shifted to to Minta's parents, the Owl and the Poker, she nicknamed them. Then, she thought of things she wanted to do like hospitals and dairy, but not till her children are old enough. Thought she countered that idea. She never wanted her children to grow up especially James, full of promises. Prue, a perfect angel with the others, took one's breath away with her beauty. Andrew who was good in mathematics, Nancy and Roger, both wild creatures. Rose who had a wonderful gift in her hands for dresses, table, flowers, anything. Jasper shot birds, but hoping it was only a stage. She thought about life itself with all the problems and sufferings and deaths but fought again to think about the happy endings of her children. Minta and Paul, as well, thinking that people must marry and must have children.

As she reads on, she wondered why the group didn't come back yet. When she finished reading, it was already nighttime. Mildred carried James, and Mrs. Ramsay thought of the disappointments of not going to the lighthouse tomorrow will be remembered all of his son's life.

When Mrs. Ramsay was finally alone, Mr. Ramsay noticed her and would like to approach her but didn't. Instead, Mrs. Ramsay grabbed her green shawl and walk towards her husband. Together they went for a walk in the garden. They talk about things, while simultaneously thinking about other things that they cannot tell each other. They continued on thing walking and talking some and thinking more until they had spotted Lily and Mr. Bankes together.
Lily and Bankes were talking about places and seeing art while in Europe. When both of the couple met each other, it was decided that Mr. Bankes will join them in dinner.

Chapter 14 introduces a new line of thoughts. It will be coming from the group that left to wander in the beach. Nancy, apparently, joined Andrew, Paul and Minta. As they give each other spaces, they went to to do their own thing. Andrew and Nancy to the opposite directions, while the young couple made out. When the tide was coming, Andrew called upon Nancy who ran away from the sea. As their preparing to leave, Minta told them she lost her grandmother's brooch. Heroic as Paul was, he promised he will find it for her. They put a mark on where they last saw it. Then they went home for dinner.

As they are preparing, Jasper and Rose helped Mrs. Ramsay on choosing the necklace and shawl to wear with her gown. She still cant help not to worry since the group who left for the beach hasn't arrived back yet. They should have a nice dinner since Mr. Bankes will be joining them. It will be boeuf en daube, the specialty of the night.

Finally they had returned, Mrs. Ramsay went down the stairs, and they all gathered for dinner. (hide spoiler)]


q13:
(view spoiler)[I think "children never forget" is all about disappointments. If someone experienced something in the past, it made an impression, or big impact, or in James' case, a big crushing feeling to his excited heart, well, definitely it will be unforgettable.
"the greenhouse would cost fifty pounds", honestly baffles me. Maybe it refers to the economic stability that they have. They cant afford to have extra expenses. haha! i really dont know! :) (hide spoiler)]


q14:
(view spoiler)[
These notions are somewhat relative. And i definitely dont agree with them. Not all women get the chance to get married and that doesn't make them any lesser.Yes, motherhood is the best thing that can happen to any woman but if not given the opportunity, why sulk? Instead, focus on other things that can make them as productive and as noble as being a mom.
Same with being an artist. A lot of women out there were showered with great hands and artistic talents. i go with Lily Briscoe of rejecting these notions. (hide spoiler)]

q15:
(view spoiler)[
Mrs. Ramsay and Lily Briscoe both represents two sides of the womanhood. The former, being the matriarch, the independent single, the latter.
I don't think so. Despite of the men wanting to be the dominating species of the society, still there are some roles that only women can provide, effectively. These where Mrs. Ramsay and Lily stepped in. (hide spoiler)]

q16:
(view spoiler)[
There are lots and lots of things that Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay disagreed upon. Views about Jasper's hobby of shooting birds, both hoping it was just a stage, about Tansley being not a polished specimen, Mrs. Ramsay's follow-up,he's far from it, Tansley not fit to be partnered with Prue, she prayed for him not to fall in love, he'll disown her if it will happen. Add thoughts about Aunt Camila, the beauty of Prue, Andrew's scholarship.
They agree on things, they disagree on most. This seems to give them balance. (hide spoiler)]

q17:
The role of Lily Briscoe.
(view spoiler)[I believe that Lily represents the idea of a woman with strong will. Like Mrs. Ramsay being the glue that holds the family, the strength of the husband the children. Though, Lily is not yet married, she lives independently doing what she loves, that is to paint. Though, from the episodes that i had witness, she doesn't believe in the beauty of her own paintings. Also like Mr. Ramsay, he thinks less of himself, a failure.
I think, Lily both represents Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay. (hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

WOW, so may kasama akong nagpuyat kagabi (me for a different reason, hehe). Thanks! I'll read your posts tonight (because magpupuyat ulit ako). ;)

[Angus]

Because it's down time at the office...

Buddy Monique:
(view spoiler)[
I can almost see you talking to my face when I read your answer to Question 16. Such passion! Anyway, why this face ":/" at Mrs. Ramsay's thought of matching Lily and William? Do you have objections against Mrs. Ramsay's thinking of it or to the pair itself?
(hide spoiler)]

Arjaye:
(view spoiler)[
That's a great take on Lily (regarding Question 17). But I'd like to ask this instead: can you cite examples of other things that can make women as productive and as noble as being a mom?
(hide spoiler)]

[Monique]

BUDDY: (view spoiler)[The ":/" was for the lack of an emoticon for "rolling my eyes." (view spoiler)[Now that I think about it, I should have just typed *rolls eyes* para mas accurate, haha! (hide spoiler)] And the reason for the rolling of the eyes is for Mrs. Ramsay's matchmaking ideas - of course, she's the Marriage Guru! Always thinking that everyone should be paired up and be married: Minta and Paul, Lily and William. I'm only waiting for a third pair. It's like, the answer to all of the world's problems is marriage. :/
There. :D (hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Heto daw ang mga roll eyes emoticons:

@@ --> I personally use this when I'm ngarag.
8-| --> This looks like a person with eyeglasses.
>> --> It doesn't look like anything to me.
9_9 --> I kinda like this, haha!

Hmm, I won't say if there's a third pair or none. :D

[Monique]

Hmm, I think I'll use 9_9 haha! :D

[Arjaye]

Angus to Arjaye:That's a great take on Lily (regarding Question 17). But I'd like to ask this instead: can you cite examples of other things that can make women as productive and as noble as being a mom?

(view spoiler)[ We all know that motherhood is such a noble job that requires nothing in return, except for the children that she took care of and nurture for live a better life in the future. no compensation, unlimited time, thankless deeds, life long commitment. But we all know, also, that not all women are given the chance to be mothers. But that shouldn't stop them for doing things that can better people's lives. Any job that aims to provides real care and concern to an individual, without giving a, excuse me for the word, damn, about fame or fortune, it may physical like doctors, spiritual like priests and preachers, emotional and intellectual like teachers, can be considered as productive and as noble as well. People who work abroad to better the lives of the people they left behind, without asking for any payments in return, is as noble as it is to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Hello, how's everyone? It has been quiet lately and I hope you haven't drowned in the pool, in the sea, or in the stream? We'll be on the halfway mark with tomorrow's chapter. I've tallied your points and they are on the other thread. For those of you who have answered the current batch of questions, good job and thanks for giving me something to do! For the rest, you may still post your answers. Kindly check the schedule below:

Questions 12 to 17: Until May 18, Sunday, 11:59PM
Questions 08 to 11: Until today, 11:59PM. You may still answer after this but they will no longer earn points k.
Questions 01 to 07: You may still answer these but they will no longer earn points k.

Questions for Chapters 17 will be posted in a bit.

Buddy Monique and Arjaye, thank you for the follow throughs.

[Angus]

Part I: Chapter 17

Question 18:
(view spoiler)[
Summarize Part I: Chapter 17. (1 point for every 20 words, maximum of 10 points)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 19:
(view spoiler)[
At the dinner party, what is the prevailing mood before the candles were lit? (1 point)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 20:
(view spoiler)[
Do you believe that the ability to create social harmony is a special gift? Do you think that Mrs. Ramsay has this? (2 points)
(hide spoiler)]

Question 21:
(view spoiler)[
At this point, can you decide if the novel's tone is hopeful or despairing? Why? (1 point)
(hide spoiler)]

Score Boosters:
(view spoiler)[
Receive one point for every proper name or proper noun mentioned in your answers. Improperly capitalized and incorrectly spelled items are not counted. Example: you type Lily briscoe or Lily Briscow, you will not earn a point for either. By the way, Lily Briscoe is only one point, not two. And so on. Oh, Life and Lighthouse are not counted.
No more editing once your points are tallied, okay?
(hide spoiler)]

[Kristel]

Question 08:
(view spoiler)[The actual scene that spans Chapters 6 to 9 is actually a short tableau that starts with Mrs. Ramsay sitting with James and reading him a story. Mr. Ramsay then disturbs them by tickling and prodding his son, which made him very upset. Mr. Ramsay is obviously agitated and continues arguing that there is no point in planning for tomorrow since it's going to rain. Mrs. Ramsay tries to be placating, but her husband's gruffness hurts her.

Inside their own heads, there are a lot of conflicting and roiling emotions that absorb all three characters. Mr. Ramsay is obviously agitated by the thought of someone "blundering". He also struggles with his place within his own generation and how he can never rise above the people who "stay in Q and never reach R". Later on he also contemplates on the legacy of Shakespeare and how culture would be different without it. He ties it into his own legacy to the world.

On the other hand, James feels a great hatred in his young heart towards his father. He thinks that his father is imposing on his mother, particularly when he comes back and disturbs their story-telling to express some self-pity in an obvious ploy to make Mrs. Ramsey reassure him.

Mrs. Ramsay feels great tiredness for the role that she has to play in order to keep the peace in her family. She tries to reassure her husband of his worth, even though her words have obviously been rehearsed and empty. Her thoughts turn to Mr. Carmichael, a guest who seems too caught up with drugs (I think) to be something other than indifferent to the other guests in the vacation house. Mrs. Ramsay feels slighted that he doesn't admire her the way people who meet her often do. But she does feel ashamed of these vain thoughts and forced herself to go back to reading to James.

Outside of this scene, Lily Briscoe and Mr. Bankes observe them. They have a conversation about Mrs. Ramsay in which Mr. Bankes comments contradict the look of affection that he has for Mrs. Ramsay. Lily Briscoe wonders about the qualities that women like Mrs. Ramsay possess that make people love her, since Lily herself seems not to possess them. After a while Mr. Bankes turns to look at Lily Briscoe's painting, and asks why she uses a triangle shape to depict Mrs. Ramsay and James. (hide spoiler)]

Question 09:
(view spoiler)[Mr. Ramsay feels that he is not living up to the promise of greatness (as a writer, maybe) and that he cannot rise above the other writers of his generation and be considered extraordinary. He worries about critics' opinions and considers their regard for his work as reflective of his worth as a person. (hide spoiler)]

Question 10:
(view spoiler)[They both come off as brash and inconsiderate, especially when it comes to intellectual pursuits. The difference between them is class; Mr. Ramsay is obviously the richer one between them and therefore more "refined" and simply a poetic soul. (hide spoiler)]

Question 11:
(view spoiler)[I don't actually know how to characterize reality. A lot of things that we would consider objective (such as history, philosophy, and science) have been revealed to be products of their respective cultures. So there may be different "realities" depending on peoples' consensus of what that might be. (hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Chapters 10-16
(view spoiler)[

Cam the Wicked dashed passed Lily and William, passed Mrs. Ramsay and James –she ignored them all. Meanwhile, Mrs. Ramsay was preoccupied with lots of things inside her head. One (1), Minta, Paul, and Andrew have not yet returned from their walk. This agitates her to think that a rumor might erupt from this unescorted event she herself had orchestrated. It’s scandalous for people to see Minta wondering about town with Paul, to whom she is not yet engaged. Surely, Mrs. Doyle will accuse her of more than just stealing Minta away from her this time.

Two (2), she reflects that she doesn't want her children to grow old, and forget all about happiness. She remembered how she and Mr. Ramsay argued about this. But if they do get older, she’d be able to pursue some social problems, mainly the hospital and the dairy. Further on (3), the social problems moved on personal problems, like “the bill for the greenhouse would be fifty pounds”. These went on until finally the storytelling concluded and James was taken by the maid. But then, James turned to look at the new lighted lighthouse, and Mrs. Ramsay was afraid that James will never forget about this disappointment.

Finally, Mrs. Ramsay had a few moments alone, an escape from all her woes and worries, thinking about nothing but the continuous motion of knitting. But worries did creep in. As the light beam from the lighthouse mesmerized her, she reflected that it is very important to watch what one is saying in front of the children, because they never forget. Her musings led her to think that surely God did not make a world where happiness is fleeting, and sufferings rule. She was closely observed by her husband, who didn’t want to disturb her peace. The frown on her face made him thought that perhaps it was his temper that caused that frown. But then, Mrs. Ramsay noticed him, put on a shawl, and went to him on the lawn.

Walking together, the couple discussed issues regarding their children –Jasper’s bird shooting, and disinheriting Prue is she ever considers marrying Charles Tansley. Emotionally, Mr. Ramsay mourns that the pinnacle of his career was over. Mrs. Ramsay, however, was amused by her husband’s moods and beliefs that his books would have been better if he had not married and had children. Inasmuch as her husband is intellectual, the simple thing in life was unnoticed by him, simply insignificant in his set of mind.
Amazing. Even with problems plaguing her thoughts, Mrs. Ramsay still managed to convince herself that Lily and William should marry, coming upon them on the lawn.

Lily listens while William recounts great work of arts he has seen in Europe. Reflecting on art works, Lily concluded that perhaps it is best that she had not seen most of them because it will kill her confidence all the more. They came upon the Ramsay couple watching their kids playing ball. For Lily, Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay is the best picture of a married life. And perceptively, she also sensed that Mrs. Ramsay intends for her to marry William.

Mrs. Ramsay’s anxiousness for the late party, she asked if Nancy joined Paul, Minta, and Andrew. The answer would be yes, Nancy was with them. Andrew hates taking girls for a walk; and his irritation heightened when he and Nancy caught Minta and Paul kissing secretly. Upon leaving, Minta discovered that she lost her grandmother’s brooch. Everyone searched for it until it has dimmed and the tide rolled high. Paul, feeling chivalrous, volunteered to head back to the beach early next morning to look for it. Paul was considering whether he should consult with Mrs. Ramsay regarding his proposal to Minta, to which he was influenced by Mrs. Ramsay; but when the fully lit house came into view, he decided not to make a fool of himself.

Dressing up for dinner, Mrs. Ramsay let Rose choose her jewelry for the evening. Why she was saddened by this ceremony, I cannot tell. But she was very anxious that the dinner might be ruined after leaving it warming this long. Then, she heard the late group had finally arrived.

Question 13

Mrs. Ramsay above all wants to keep her children happy. That will never happen if they keep on experiencing disappointments especially very early in life. She kept saying “children never forget” because it’s the one thing she can never resolve after their formative years.
"The greenhouse would cost fifty pounds" is of a different matter. It’s the one thing she needs to resolve herself without adding more burdens to his husband’s unstable state.

Question 14

I am a married person, and I have nothing against marriage. People can be happy and complete, of course, even without being married. We make life by how we live it.
Now, Tansley’s remarks were pure discrimination.

Question 15

Lily regards Mrs. Ramsay as a mother and inspiration, regardless of the latter’s view on happiness and marriage. Mrs. Ramsay, on the other hand, thinks it is her responsibility to look after Lily and make sure that she gets a proper husband to make her happy.
In a way, yes, the men did just that. Mrs. Ramsay did accept the docile role of a wife, but somehow she was able to manage them all, not by superiority or power, but with her gentle demeanor and understanding. It’s an art wife needs to learn. Lily, despite her low regard for her own talent, believes that she can make something of herself independently in the future.

Question 16

Mrs. Ramsay views were simple enough –to keep her family happy, serve them wholeheartedly, and care for them the best way she can, while showing them the beauty of life.
Mr. Ramsay is driven by his ambition to be recognized with excellence in his field by those around him, especially by his contemporaries. He wanted to exceed them all. His inadequacy in not reaching his goals fast and sure made him insecure. This insecurity turns him into a bully, both to his wife and children; but in times like this, it is to his wife he run for comfort most of the times.

Question 17

To that I have no idea yet.

(hide spoiler)]

[Tin]

Question 12:(view spoiler)[ As Lily was packing her paint set, with Willaim Bankes standing by, Cam came dashing past and almost knocked the easel over. Mrs. Ramsay calls out from the window and tells Cam to ask Mildred whether Andrew, Paul and Minta have come back. To which Cam replies, that no they haven't yet. This prompts Mrs. Ramsay to think about the idea that Minta should now take Paul for her husband. She could not very well go traipsing about the country if she won’t accept him for marriage. Then she now thinks about how Minta’s parents whom she nicknamed The Owl and The Poker, accused her of stealing their daughters affections from them. This irked her because she couldn't help being awesome. Then she began thinking about her 8 kids , their personalities and their future. She then expresses her query as to why can’t the kids to remain as they are, forever young, to which Mr. Ramsay expresses his anger for such a pessimistic declaration. Mrs. Ramsay then counters her negative feelings about the children growing up and experiencing the world’s pain and suffering by some positive self-talk and saying that they will be perfectly fine. Now, the fairy tale that she was reading to James, finally comes to an end. She now dreaded that the boy will be asking whether they will go to the lighthouse and she will then be forced to reply that no, they wouldn't and the boy will remember that all through his life.

She soon finds herself sans James and thus wraps a green shawl around her shoulders and proceeds to do some knitting. She saw the Lightouse and its strokes and thought over and over about how “Children Never Forget.” She thought about how beauty and happiness are fleeting and then she saw the light from the lightouse again and she said she was grateful for having known true and exquisite happiness. Mrs. Ramsay passes by and saw how lovely she is and yet felt pained at how sad and distant she looks. He dare not disturb her, but Mrs. Ramsay herself got up to join the former for a walk for she knew that that was what her husband wanted, to protect her.

As they were walking they began to talk and have differing views about many things: Andrew’s scholarship, Charles Tansley, Prue and Aunt Camilla, etc. Mr. Ramsay then contemplated his old bachelor life, at how he used to roam about with only a biscuit in his pocket. But alas marriage took that away from him. Mrs. Ramsay picked up on this and she thought that maybe he could have produced better books if he was a bachelor. Mr. Ramsay then quickly countered his thoughts by thinking that he does cherish his family life would not change a thing and then kissed his wife’s hand. Mrs. Ramsay then saw Mr. Bankes and Lily together, from afar and said: “Surely they must marry!”

Lily and William Bankes are talking about the travels they have been in and the art they have seen. And then they spot the Ramsays. Lily thought that Mrs. Ramsay surely wants her and William Bankes to get married now. Lily then went on to think about how Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay are the “model couple.” Mrs. Ramsay now saw Prue and Jasper playing catch and asked whether Nancy came with Minta, Paul and Andrew, and whether they have come back.

Nancy did go with them. Minta asked her to. So then Paul, Minta, Andrew and Nancy all went to the shore of the sea. As they were busy playing around, Nancy and Andrew soon spots Paul and Minta kissing and both were outraged, They put on their shoes in silence, but then Minta cried that she lost the brooch she got from her grandma. They looked and looked but did not find it. Paul promised to look for it once daylight comes and said that he always finds whatever he is looking for. All of them proceeded to go home now.

Mrs. Ramsay is now getting ready for a grand dinner with William Bankes, Lily, Tansley, Carmichael and the rest of the Ramsay family. She is thinking about the BOEUF EN DAUBE and how it must be cooked to perfection. She then went to her room and had Jasper and Rose pick her a necklace to go with what she was wearing, as well as a shawl. After which she heard the dinner bell and went down for the banquet. (hide spoiler)]

Question 13:(view spoiler)[ I think only because these are the two things she is most worried about. Her children and house expenses and her husband’s ego; as she has delegated herself to be the quintisential wife. (hide spoiler)]

Question 14: (view spoiler)[ I think these notions are very gender bias and aren’t really rational or fair. But I guess, that was how it was back then huh? So I am quite glad that I am born in this day and age of Girl Power and Women’s Lib and Destiny’s Child (hide spoiler)] (view spoiler)[ All the women, who are independent ♫ Throw your hands up at me!♪ All the honeys, who making money ♫ Throw your hands up at me♪. The shoes on my feet ♫(I've bought it!)♫ The clothes I'm wearing ♪(I've bought it)♪
The rock I'm rocking♪. Cause I depend on me! Hahahah (hide spoiler)]

Question 15:(view spoiler)[ Lily and Mrs. Ramsay sort of have a “respect-and-admire-each-other-despite-being-completely-different” kind of relationship. Perhaps it is the stark difference that actually draws both to each other.

I don’t think so. I think these two can do whatever they like despite the men around them being dominating. I think Lily is pretty independent minded and defies the conventions society (or that Tansley and Mrs. Ramsay) imposes by not looking for a husband and by engaging in her art. Mrs. Ramsay on the other hand, I think she sort of delegates herself to be the “comforter” and wants to be the lesser half between her and her husband. It’s kind of her choice. (hide spoiler)]

Question 16: (view spoiler)[ Mr. Ramsay often has a practical view of the world. I realize that he doesn’t think much about visual beauty. Like he doesn’t notice Prue or Aunt Camilla’s beauty. Or he doesn't really notice the flowers as well. But Mrs. Ramsay is much more open to appreciating it. Mr. Ramsay is concerned about the big things, like success, and scholarships, and legacies. Mrs. Ramsay on one hand notices the tiny things like the children's emotional well-being(how disappointments might affect them/children never forget) the flowers, the green house repair.

I feel however that they have a similar view of marriage. That men should be the superior and dominant figure, that they are the ones who will make a living and engage in scholarly endeavors and such. While women are the caretakers, the comforters, the ones who need protection (hide spoiler)]

Question 17:(view spoiler)[I don’t know, to be honest. I do think that of all the people in their home, Lily knows Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay the most. She has unraveled them pretty accurately. So they can’t hide from her. I don’t think that the couple realize that though so I can’t say whether she plays a role in their relationship. (hide spoiler)]

Angus:(view spoiler)[ Regarding the follow–up question: In any case, I think women are just as egotistical as men. They just express it differently, or seek attention in a different manner. I think Mrs. Ramsay touches on it at some point, about vanity. Also now that I have read more about Lily, she is in no way, similar to the Lisbon ladies. I take it back. This book is more dissimilar that similar to The Virgin Suicides as well. (hide spoiler)]

[Angus]

Hi Kristel
(view spoiler)[
It's interesting that you brought up class when talking about intellectual pursuits. I've read somewhere (it's an article about Edith Wharton) that only the extremely rich or the extremely poor can achieve intellectual greatness. What do you think of this statement?
(hide spoiler)]

Hi Mommy L
(view spoiler)[
Why do you have no idea yet on Question 17? Is this a fault in characterization or do you feel that you need more info?
(hide spoiler)]

Hi Tin
(view spoiler)[
♫ Girl I didn't know you could get down like that ♪ Charlie, how your Angels get down like that ♫ Okay, enough singing for now. Regarding the Ramsays' view of marriage, do you think that, if we put this in a modern context, do you think that it is a healthy view of marriage?
(hide spoiler)]

[Arjaye]

Chapter 17

q18:
Summary.
(view spoiler)[ The dinner. As Mrs. Ramsay was setting the seats and the food, she noticed the disorder among her guests. She felt the need to create the harmony so to start, she engaged Mr. William Bankes to a conversation about letters. While the stream of thoughts were jumping from one character to another, the dinner continued. Charles Tansley was irritated having called upon dinner. He was under dressed, he thought and he was not happy. Lily Briscoe, on the other hand, was thinking about her work, that she should put the tree in the middle of her painting. While watching them converse, Mrr. Ramsay and Mr. Bankes and Charles Tansley, Lily Briscoe came to a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsay took pity more to men than women.
Because Tansley was not enjoying himself, he started again the impossibility of not going to the Lighthouse the next day. Lily was irritated but tried to control herself. While Mr. Bankes was starting to regret ever joining this dinner.
As the conversation went on, about friends Mrs. Ramsay and Mr. Bankes both knew, about Tansley's knowledge of being a sailor, of fishermen and wages, Mrs. Ramsay was hoping that her husband, Mr. Ramsay would join and say something. But unfortunately, all Mr. Ramsay saw was Augustus Carmichael requesting for another plate of soup, and he doesn't like it.
Candles were lit. It brought a sense of order and harmony among the guests.
Paul and Minta, finally arrived, explaining the reason of being late and the lost of her grandmother's brooch. Mr. Ramsay said she was a fool to bring jewelries at the beach. Minta sat beside him, Paul on the other. Mrs. Ramsay, on the other hand, as she assumed Paul and Minta were already engaged, she reminisced her engagement with her husband.
The boeuf en daube was set on the table and it was a success. For a while they talked about French and culinary arts. And then some more. Topics and thoughts were jumping from one to another, till the dinner was over. Then decided to have poetry.
As Carmichael finishes the poem, Mrs. Ramsay gets up and leaves, looking once over her shoulder to confirm that that dinner has already become part of the past. (hide spoiler)]

q19:
(view spoiler)[ Before the dinner starts, it was chaos. The party who left for the beach were running late, Charles Tansley was quite unwilling to be there, he preferred to be just in his room doing his work. Mr. Ramsay was quiet, thoughts to himself alone till he got upset with Augustus Carmichael who was asking for another plate of soup. Tansley acted being a jerk with Lily Briscoe. Bankes and Tansley talking about politics, while Mrs. Ramsay was wishing her husband to participate instead of scowling. (hide spoiler)]

q20:
(view spoiler)[Yes, i do believe. Just like being the life of a party, of having a knack in public speaking, of quite leading a group of people effectively, of talents and skills, of being charming, the ability to create social harmony can be considered as a gift. Not every people have these special kinds to interact with other people. It is within the personality of the individual. To be able to gather all the family and guests, and in turn change the mood from chaotic to peaceful dinner, Mrs. Ramsay has this special gift. It was established since the beginning that Mrs. Ramsay is as likeable and endearing and as nice to everyone. (hide spoiler)]

q21:
(view spoiler)[ Hmm... hopeful. I always focus on the good side of every thing. And this group, with all the differences of actions and thoughts that they have, i think, will still yield good results in the end. (hide spoiler)]

[Meliza]

Question 12
(view spoiler)[Cam was running and ignored everyone until Mrs. Ramsay called her twice. Mrs. Ramsay were thinking about Minta and Paul not yet coming back from their walk and if they’re going to marry. Andrew was also with them. She continued reading to James. While reading she can still think about Minta and her parents. She also thought about not wanting her children to grow up. She enumerated all her children and described them. She switched her thoughts on Minta and her children and she did this while reading. (Multi-tasking, hehe.) She finished reading the Fisherman and His Wife. After that, James thought of the lighthouse while Mrs. Ramsay was thinking that he will forever remember this moment when he knew that they’re not going to the lighthouse the next day.

Mrs. Ramsay was knitting while she contemplates about her being herself and alone. She looked at the lighthouse with its stroke. She believed that the long steady stroke, which is the third stroke, is her stroke. She said that “We are in the hands of the Lord” but eventually wondered why she said it and was even annoyed for saying it. Mr. Ramsey saw her, admired her, notice her sadness, and then thought of wanting to protect her. Mrs. Ramsay sense that he wanted to protect her so she called him and approached her husband.

Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay walked and talked about Jasper, Andrew, Prue, Tansley, and the garden. Mr. Tansley said that if Andrew didn’t work hard, he would lose a scholarship. Mr. Ramsay will be proud if Andrew gets a scholarship but Mrs. Ramsay will be proud either way. Then Mrs. Ramsay said that Mr. Ramsay would have written better books if he had not married her. He said that it’s okay, and then kissed her hand. Mrs. Ramsay thought that even if his husband is already 60, holding his arm still felt like it was an arm of a young man. She continued thinking about his husband’s inability to understand simple things but focused more on the complex ones. Mr. Ramsay shouted at Mrs. Giddings. He also commented about the flowers to please his wife. Mrs. Ramsay,on the other hand, saw Briscoe and Bankes and decided that these two should marry.

Bankes and Briscoe talked about their travels. Briscoe saw Mr. and Mrs. Ramsay watching the kids throwing a ball and thought about this as a vision of marriage. Lily realized (wow!) that Mrs. Ramsay wants her and Bankes to marry. Mrs. Ramsay was worried because Paul and Minta haven’t returned yet from their walk. She asked if Nancy was with them.

Nancy went with Minta and Paul because Minta asked her to. Minta kept on holding Nancy’s hands. She seems confused. Andrew thought about Minta, her clothes and how she’s not afraid of anything except bulls. Minta sang “Damn Your Eyes” and the others joined. They went to the beach. Nancy head out to the pool and imagined it as a wide sea with sharks. Andrew yelled about the tide coming and they both ran away from the sea. They saw Minta and Paul kissing. Afterwards, Minta freaked out because she lost her grandmother’s brooch. They looked for it but the tide was rising. Paul promised to look for it the next day. Paul thought about his asking Minta to marry him and can’t wait to talk to Mrs. Ramsey to tell her about his proposal and thank her.

Prue answered her mother’s question and said that Nancy did go with the others.

Jasper and Rose went to Mrs. Ramsay’s room to ask if they’ll wait until the others return for dinner. Mrs. Ramsay allowed Rose (and Jasper too) to choose the jewels that she’ll be wearing for dinner. She was worried about the four who took a walk for being late. She looked out of the window and watched the rooks. She even named one of the old rooks as Joseph. She heard the return of the four and was annoyed again. She went downstairs for the dinner and thought herself as a queen accepting tributes from her people. She smelled something burning and wondered if it’s the boeuf en daube. When everything was ready, everyone stopped what they’re doing and went to the dinner table. (hide spoiler)]

Question 13
(view spoiler)[I think these statements keep on recurring in her mind because these are her only real worries in her life. She may think about other things and other people but the most important part of her is her family. The first statement is pertaining to her children while the second statement refers to her husband.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 14
(view spoiler)[I believe that being a married woman is a great accomplishment in life. But this doesn't mean that those who weren't given the chance to marry are less fortunate. Everybody has their own life experiences that could make them feel complete and fulfilled in life.
If women are not made to be writers or painters, maybe men too. What I'm trying to say is that everyone has a chance to be good in arts and in literature. To be good in these fields requires talent and perseverance and the gender doesn't really matter.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 15
(view spoiler)[I think both Mrs. Ramsay and Briscoe like and respect each other even though they have different perspectives in life, especially about women. Also, I don't think that they were denied of their social power and artistic vision. On the contrary, I believe they both achieved their own type of power and vision despite of being surrounded by domineering men.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 16
(view spoiler)[Mrs. Ramsay tends to appreciate simple and ordinary things while Mr. Ramsay is more inclined to contemplate on the complex and philosopical aspects of the world.
(hide spoiler)]

Question 17
(view spoiler)[I don't really know Briscoe's role in the relationship of the couple. Though I could say that she shares some common characteristics with both of them. Like Mr. Ramsay, she focuses on her career although she is quite having doubts on her work. But like Mrs. Ramsay, she still thinks about the domestic aspects of life, like having a family and children. (hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Angus wrote: "Hi Mommy L
Why do you have no idea yet on Question 17? Is this a fault in characterization or do you feel that you need more info?"

(view spoiler)[
I think it is the latter. Reading, we can surmise that Lily is one keen observer. Somehow, she was able to discern both Ramsays beyond their outside behavior. In other words, she has depth in her for understanding people. To what her role is to the couple's relationship, we can only assume. One of which is that she may lead one towards the other in understanding their relationship beyond marriage; because as far as I can tell this couple is unaware of each others love for each other. It's a topic that they have not discussed before.
(hide spoiler)]

[Louize]

Part I: Chapter 17
(view spoiler)[
Question 18:

It’s time for dinner, and Mrs. Ramsay is not going to delay it much longer. She took her seat on the table, and then curiously reflected on what she had accomplished in life. Dinner would speed up much faster if she help ladle the soup. As she was doing so, she cannot help noticing the shabbiness of the room, feeling once more that she is responsible in addressing that problem.

Mrs. Ramsay engaged Mr. Bankes into a conversation. Her apparent pity for Mr. Bankes was keenly observed by Lily Briscoe. Mrs. Ramsay also did her best to include Charles Tansley into the conversation. And Lily concluded that Mrs. Ramsay pities men more than women. But Mr. Tansley acted annoyed by all these small talks and nonsensical gathering for dinner, when all the while he’s feeling self-pity for not having the means to change into something suitable for the said occasion. So, he asserted himself by implying once more that it is impossible to go to the Lighthouse on the morrow. Lily resented his behavior, and with a hint of sarcasm asked Charles to escort her to the lighthouse. Sensing her insincerity, Charles decline and prompted that she’ll be sick.

Reminded of an old friend she never had a chance to see again, Mrs. Ramsay asked about Carrie. Mr. Bankes told her what became of Carrie; then went on expressing his good nature to keep in touch with people. But then, Mrs. Ramsay had to interrupt their conversation to address the maid, which annoyed Mr. Bankes terribly and inwardly regretting his decision to join the Ramsays for dinner.

Mr. Tansley was brooding by then, concocting a lie in his head on how he will spread about that he dined with the Ramsays and they did not impress him. His eyes roamed around the table, secretly wishing for someone to engage him once again so he can have an excuse to give more of his atrocious comments. Lily saw all these, and left him to struggle on his own; his payment for being nasty with her. Mrs. Ramsay looked at Lily, telepathically telling her to take pity on the man and talk to him.

Conversations were moving around the table, but it was obvious that there was no harmony among them. She looked to her husband, who at that moment was scowling at Mr. Carmichael, who had asked for another serving of soup. A mental argument went across the table between husband and wife.

Candles were brought into the room, casting a warm glow, bringing in a change, a sense of order into the room. Everyone’s attention was caught by the fruit arrangement on the table.

Finally, Minta and Paul joined them at the table. Minta announced that she had lost her grandmother’s brooch on the beach. And while Paul recounts their walk, Mrs. Ramsay deduced that the two latecomers are finally engaged. Minta was like a firecracker, giggling and flirting with Mr. Ramsay, while he tells her that she’s a fool for wearing jewelry on the beach. For a moment there, Mrs. Ramsay felt a pang of jealousy, of Minta’s youth and beauty; she remembered her own engagement then with her husband.

Mrs. Ramsay felt that Charles and Lily must have felt left out in all these glow of love and newly engaged couple. For Charles, she assumes that he will be disagreeable until he himself got married. And as for Lily, she must plan to seat her next to Mr. Bankes next time. Lily may have felt upset, but then the saltshaker reminded her of her unfinished painting, she must move the tree in the middle.

Time and again, Mrs. Ramsay stirred the conversation away from topics that may upset her husband. When dinner was over, everyone recited a poem. Her husband recited one and tells out a story to Minta. Then Mr. Carmichael recited a poem as tribute to their hostess. Mrs. Ramsay waited until the merriment mellowed and walked out of the room. Looking back at her shoulder, she confirms that dinner turned out to be special, but like all things, it already belonged to the past.


Question 19:

There was no harmony at the table. I don’t think people were too excited for this dinner in the beginning.

Question 20:

Yes, I believe so, on both question.

Question 21:

Considering this chapter alone, I think it’s hopeful. There was an engagement, after all.

(hide spoiler)]

[DC]

Haha, Angus, (view spoiler)[truth is, I've already gone past the noted chapters, and dislike to go back xD Hahaha! Lazy git!

But hey, I come back to answer your disussion questions! I've even finished the book already! Effort! :D (hide spoiler)]

Part I: Chapter 17 (view spoiler)[

Question 18:
PASS, BWAHAHAHA.


Question 19:
At the dinner party, what is the prevailing mood before the candles were lit?
I think there was a little awkwardness between parties, which really happens before an event is underway. There's also a lull and some small talk socials, and some people are busy thinking about what's going to happen during the actual event (i.e. Mrs. Ramsay's worries).

It's like a pre-F2F meeting, when people are just hanging about, waiting for the actual F2F to start :)


Question 20:
Do you believe that the ability to create social harmony is a special gift? Do you think that Mrs. Ramsay has this?
YES. "Social harmony" is very difficult to achieve, and you need to be observant, considerate, and smart.

(Since I mentioned the F2F... or actually, any book discussion, really.) It's rather like being a moderator, wherein you need to take care of other people's "needs", and make sure that everyone gets their say somehow.

Mrs. Ramsay does indeed, and I think that her charm really helped with this situation.


Question 21:
At this point, can you decide if the novel's tone is hopeful or despairing? Why?
I actually thought it was neither; just that it was sort of a kind of scene portrayed. (Though I was despairing over James, aww. Oh, oh, and there was Minta and Prue, of which (view spoiler)[I get sad about later on, especially with Prue. (hide spoiler)])

Though, with Part II....

(hide spoiler)]

[Tin]

Question 18:(view spoiler)[Mrs. Ramsay takes her place at the dinner table but she somehow felt a little sad and wondered:"What have I done with my life?"(♭ Sweet Jesus, what have I done? Become a thief in the night, Become a dog on the run ♭) She then tells everyone where they are to sit and still she feels that the room is in disarray, that there is no unity. She takes it upon herself to fix that by turning her attention to William Bankes. She pities him for he has no wife or children and has to eat his dinners alone. Lily Briscoe, being the mind reader that she is, picks up on this. She wonders why Mrs. Ramsay pities William when he is quite established. He has his work, after all. Could the pity be for her vanity and not really for William? And then Lily thinks about her own work, her painting and how it would benefit if she puts a tree in it.

Now William Bankes starts talking about how one can't get anything good from the mail and yet one always want ones' letters. Mrs. Ramsay takes pity now on Charles Tansley and draws him into the conversation by asking if he writes any letters. Charles Tansley, acting all hoity toity, hates everything that is going on. He thinks the dinner party is silly and women are even sillier. Randomly, he blurts out: "No going to the Lighthouse, tommorow!" Lily is then annoyed by this, by Charles' hoity toityness (I love that word). She starts mocking him by saying:"Would you take me to the Lighthouse? I would so lurve it."(I could feel her batting her eyelashes sarcastically) Tansley is irked by this because he knows Lily is not sincere about it. He says: "You'd be sick". which annoys him even more because he surely now looks like a "dry prig" in front of Mrs. Ramsay. But the latter is not even paying attention because she is in deep conversation with Mr. Bankes.

They are talking about an old friend named Carrie Manning whom Mrs. Ramsay has grown apart with, but whom Mr. Bankes has kept in touch with. This growing apart saddens Mrs. Ramsay but Mr. Bankes feels pleased as punch to have more social clout than the social butterfly beside him. Mrs. Ramsay starts talking to the maid and soon Mr. Bankes starts to feel bored and thinks about how he could be reading his work right now. Mrs. Ramsay soon turns to him and says in French: "Ow you must detest dining in ze bear garden" to which William replies: "No, not zat all". It's because he did not want Mrs. Ramsay to think he doesn't care about her. Charles Tansley is somehow annoyed by this exchange in French (as he is with almost everything). He soon thinks how he will tell is friends of how terribly boring it is staying with the Ramsays, they talk such nonsense. Our mind reader, Lily, again picks up on Tansley's need to assert himself in the conversation. She thinks that social convention dictates women must stroke men's ego whenever such an opportunity presents it self. Just as Tansley is expected to get her out if she is trapped in a Tube that has burst into flames. But what if they both don't do these things? And she just sat there smiling. (Tansley would have a bruised ego and she would be burnt to a crisp.)(I so love Lily. She thinks of the darnedest things.)

But Lily's plan of leaving Tansley to squirm, unaided, is thwarted by Mrs. Ramsay. The latter, just using her mind powers, conveys to Lily (the mind reader) that she must help Tansley assert himself (I was expecting James McAvoy (< Angus, a McAvoy reference for you!) to burst into the door and say: "You have been chosen to attend Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters! X-Men will be out on May 23!)And so Lily does. She asks him if she would take her to the Lighthouse in her most kind and gentle voice. But she soon thinks, how she'll never know Tansley and vice versa and whether this is how it is with men and women interaction, very insincere.

Then Tansley starts to open up now, thanks to Lily. He talks about how he never gets seasick and about how he got thrown off the boat when he was young....the conversation soon turns to fishermen and politics. Mrs. Ramsay wants Mr. Ramsay to speak up instead she finds him scowling at Augustus Carmichael because the latter asked for another bowl of soup. Mr. Ramsay thinks that it it excessive and ill-mannered of Carmichael to do so. Rose and Roger was looking at their father and is about to burst into laughter. But to prevent that, Mrs. Ramsay stands up and orders for the candles to be lighted and it brought about a quite unity to the table. They were all fixated on the fruit plate in front of them.

Minta Doyle and Paul Rayley stumbles in and explains about the missing brooch. Mrs. Ramsey assumes that the two are now engaged judging from the glow they were emitting. This made Mrs. Ramsay a bit jealous and also made her think about how Charles Tansley and Lily Briscoe suffers in comparison to Minta and Paul. Then the crowd talked about Middlemarch and Annakarenina's Vronsky, Bristish dairy system, and Sir Walter Scott Waverley books...

Mr. Ramsay and Augustus Carmichael both recited some poetry and then Mrs. Ramsay exits the room and thinks that the dinner party has just become something of the past (hide spoiler)]

Question 19:(view spoiler)[ Everything seems to be in chaos. Some of the kids weren't there yet. Tansley and Bankes weren't keen on the dinner itself. Mr Ramsay got annoyed by Augustus...It was not smooth sailing. (hide spoiler)]

Question 20:(view spoiler)[ I think it is. It takes skill being attuned to the mood of the surroundings and of your guests and knowing what needs to be done to bring some harmony. (hide spoiler)]

Question 21:(view spoiler)[ I can't tell to be honest. While the ending of the dinner party seemed hopeful, there was an engagement, a poem recitation, Mrs. Ramsay was feeling relieved and grateful...but then she said that the scene was vanishing before her and that it was now a thing of the past...i don't know...might mean that the happy times are over and something is dark is brewing, come to shake things up. But I could be reading too much into it. Maybe it just that Mrs. Ramsay will never go through the torture of arranging one again, so that was the last and only dinner party that they'll have. (hide spoiler)]

Follow-up Q: (view spoiler)[
Lol! Isn't it such a fun song?

Regarding the Ramsays' view of marriage, do you think that, if we put this in a modern context, do you think that it is a healthy view of marriage?

I think it isn't a healthy view of marriage because it is never good to tell what one can do and cannot do. If it's a must for women, upon marriage, to assume the role of a traditional wife, against their will, then either single ladies will overrun the world or many marriages will fall apart.

There are those who are excellent homemakers and love doing it too. But then there are those who are happiest with their careers. So whatever makes one happy, the other ( and the society) should be supportive.

And do you know who popularized the term "Girl Power?" The Spice Girls! ♬ Yo, I'll tell you what I want, what I really really want ♬. Okay, I am so sorry Angus that I keep on subjecting you to this. I am going to stop na. Hee. (hide spoiler)]