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Archived > Defenders of the practice of honest reviews, unite!

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message 1: by L.J. (last edited Jan 13, 2016 10:51PM) (new)

L.J. Kendall (luke_kendall) Yesterday I received an email, sent via the contact email on my blog, with a valid reply-to address.

It made me angry. This person offered, for a small sum, to "promote" my book with "honest" well-written reviews, with whatever star-rating I instructed. (I guess only a small percentage of the recipients of such an email would fail to see he's offering to lie as much as requested, in his "honest" reviews. But presumably, a small percentage is enough to keep him in business...)

Leaving aside, for the moment, the whole point that people like this are undermining the whole system of reviewing, and devaluing them for everyone - he also said he had 30 goodreads identities which he could use to post the reviews. The range of services he offers is rather shocking.

This seems like something worth investigating by Goodreads. Is there someone at Goodreads I should forward the email to, for further investigation? Should I post it here? If so: including his email address, or not? (I guess: not.)

But let me get back to the main point of this message...

It would be hugely valuable to all authors to develop some methodology or practice that could root out and reveal the people behind these kinds of practices, including the exposure and deletion of the phoney reviews.

So... what should be the next step?

BTW, I'm well aware that a bunch of sock-puppet accounts on Goodreads could be used just as dishonestly to post fake but plausible bad reviews of good books, if the operator of the scam got angry. So it'd be nice to factor that consideration into the planning of any response.

I was in a web chat about Self-Publishing in early December, hosted by the Australian Society of Authors, and at one point I mentioned my suspicion about how many books had up to 100 reviews with an average rating of 4.5-or-above stars. Here's a summarised excerpt [Note: I have removed the direct quotes, as I had not first obtained permission. I've replaced it with my own summary.]

I had asked: "What about tips on getting reviews? I don't understand how some people seem to have hundreds of reviews, with average star-ratings of 4.5 out of 5. Seems a bit odd to me."

Several of the participants replied; stating that people pay for online reviews on Amazon and Goodreads ("Bangalore!"); that getting reviews can be difficult even in traditional publishing with a marketing team; that there are genuine reviews around, but things are changing and reviews are moving more towards being done by readers - and, unfortunately, paid-for reviews. A couple of participants were puzzled as to why anyone would bother paying for a review; a couple were as surprised as I was, to learn of the practice.

But wouldn't it be nice to evolve some antibodies to deal with this kind of social infection? Please put your thinking caps on!

To arms!




message 2: by Riley, Viking Extraordinaire (new)

Riley Amos Westbrook (sonshinegreene) | 1521 comments Mod
Http://truereviewpledge.com
Already fighting the good fight, brother!


message 3: by L.J. (new)

L.J. Kendall (luke_kendall) I think that's all good, but I'm thinking there's lots more to do. For example, if influential sites (like Goodreads) have a system for following up on emails like I received, to uncover the fake identities and then expose them and contact all the authors who paid for the (now deleted) reviews to politely inform and educate (or, if they're repeat offenders who are colluding, undertake more drastic responses like deleting the author from the site), then we could do better.

I see this as a societal problem, albeit in the society of books and reading, not in wider society. But we could, surely, develop systems modelled on wider society's own, to defend ourselves from people who are working to undermine us? So we could have some kind of system of justice and fairness, of due diligence and juries of peers, etc., but all digitally-mediated - all enabled by the Internet.

I'm thinking that like the Open Source Software movement, or the powers developing in social media generally ("the Arab spring" via Twitter, or Avaaz, or Change.org, or ...), that there is great power in numbers.

That fact, coupled with the other great truth, that upwards of 90% of people are good and fair, honest and caring, mean that collectively we're stronger than the 5%-10% of bad apples. And it only requires a modest effort that can be spread amongst the general population of good people, to support our society.

(Whether through writing code or finding bugs; or Tweeting about injustice; or videoing abuses of black people by police...)

Am I making any sense? I'm basically suggesting that we could consciously evolve some methods to deal with these pests lurking under covers, by putting our brains together. We could start right here to discuss and grow something big and important...




message 4: by W. (new)

W. Boutwell | 157 comments thank you like


message 5: by L.J. (new)

L.J. Kendall (luke_kendall) Riley wrote: "Http://truereviewpledge.com
Already fighting the good fight, brother!"


And I've now signed up - good one, Riley, you can count on me!


message 6: by Denae (new)

Denae Christine (denaechristine) | 167 comments Luke, I'm not sure whether you should be offended the "honest" reviewer thought you were gullible enough to fall for his ploy, or if you should be flattered that the reviewer heard about your books.
Riliey, good article. Sad, though. I wish I didn't have to be suspicious of glowing reviews. The book world would be a great place if we spent our energies writing well instead of buying reviews well.
I guess one thing we can do is vote for reviews that talk specifics about the stories rather than "This book was amazing!!!!!"


message 7: by L.J. (new)

L.J. Kendall (luke_kendall) Sorry, Denae, I think they've become much, much more sophisticated than that. They've turned it into a real business, and have real people writing plausible but phoney reviews. And doing much more than just that: promoting via social media, voting reviews up or down via their fake accounts, ... It's scary. But there's money to be made, so the amoral money-hungry are now active.


message 8: by Deidre (new)

Deidre Huesmann (redpandabear) | 7 comments I just blogged about this today, actually, though my deduction was fairly different. Often when I receive a review offer, I find that if I ask for total honesty, even if it results in a one-star review, the reviewer will reject that and say, "I only leave reviews of 3 stars or higher." In my opinion, that's damaging and deceitful. We need to stop encouraging this "positive only" attitude. Readers are already beginning to distrust indie authors because they're catching on to this practice.

Always request constructive criticism.


message 9: by J C (new)

J C Steel (jcsteel) OK, guys - from an author and a reviewer, I'm going to toss this out here. Y'all are welcome to disagree :)

As an author, I always would rather someone told me the truth about my writing. Always. You can't improve otherwise. On the other hand, as a reviewer (and here's my but) I'm not out to destroy someone, publicly, in print. I know a lot of people do bring out the big guns in the review area, especially on indie books - I just don't feel the need to join in.

I won't provide a dishonest review, trying to put a shine on sh*t. I'll decline to leave a review publicly at all if I fall over a book that in my opinion is truly bad. I will instead provide that feedback to the author and try to explain what caused my opinion. Cop out? Maybe.


message 10: by Chikamso (new)

Chikamso Efobi (cheexy) | 92 comments I agree with J.C 100%. Most people who say they give 3-5 star reviews, also state that if the book is less than 3 stars, they would give constructive feedback to the author. I have seen this stated over and over again by many reviewers and there is nothing wrong, nor dishonest about that.


message 11: by Christina (new)

Christina McMullen (cmcmullen) Same here, JC, though my rule is nothing under a four stars gets posted and I don't give author feedback because I don't let anyone know I'm reading their book.

The problem, and the reason why paid reviews and fake review services exist, is because somewhere along the line, someone decided that reviews are the be all end all. There is even false information that gets thrown about claiming that after a certain number of reviews, Amazon will give a work more exposure. (Spoiler: they don't)

Reviews are nice, but no, they are not and should not be treated as a marketing tool. Truly organic reviews are for readers to convey their thoughts to other readers and nothing more.

As for the original email claiming to have sock puppet accounts here on Goodreads, yes Luke, you absolutely need to forward that to Goodreads. I'm sure there's a contact us link from your dashboard.


message 12: by Riley, Viking Extraordinaire (new)

Riley Amos Westbrook (sonshinegreene) | 1521 comments Mod
Deidre wrote: "I just blogged about this today, actually, though my deduction was fairly different. Often when I receive a review offer, I find that if I ask for total honesty, even if it results in a one-star re..."

Like you, J.c. I don't post a review below 4 stars, unless the author asks me to. That's how I got my first 1 star review on my trilogy, and also where I learned a lot about being an author. I asked the reviewer to post the review, because I'm not afraid of other people's opinion.
The True Review Pledge states that I as an author refuse to pay for a review. I accept each and every review, positive and negative, and try to learn something from every review.
An author gets my opinion no matter what, negative or positive. Whether or not that 1 star review gets posted is up to them. Remember, some people are coming from no education besides the school of hard knocks. Sometimes they need help being hammered into shape. But like a blacksmith with a too an eager hammer, a reviewer can ruin what could otherwise be a perfectly good sword.


message 13: by Riley, Viking Extraordinaire (new)

Riley Amos Westbrook (sonshinegreene) | 1521 comments Mod
Christina wrote: "..."

I hope I didn't do all that hard work on Everyone Dies At The End for nothing! Reviews can be effective marketing if done right, at least I hope


message 14: by Steve (new)

Steve Harrison (stormingtime) | 52 comments I only review books I finish - it's unfair to review a book I abandon - so my reviews are always 3, 4 or 5.

I'm very happy when I receive reviews for my novel, but I concentrate on attracting buyers and have no interest in soliciting reviews.


message 15: by Segilola (new)

Segilola Salami (segilolasalami) | 108 comments how come the likes of kirkus are so big?


message 16: by K.P. (new)

K.P. Merriweather (kp_merriweather) | 266 comments I review when I can and start on a 3 (expecting the book to be decent) and move up or down the scale as I continue. I don't rate books I don't finish and note why. I give 2 types - technical and personal. folks can take it or leave it.
yeah it's difficult getting reviews as it is. I've been tempted but I'm stingy (and usually there's yet another computer to be fixed). it's sad how crazy it's gotten. .


message 17: by Jamie (new)

Jamie Campbell | 49 comments Deidre wrote: "I just blogged about this today, actually, though my deduction was fairly different. Often when I receive a review offer, I find that if I ask for total honesty, even if it results in a one-star re..."

Agreed. I had a blogger email me to say sorry, but I can only give your book two stars. I only had two other reviews at that time, and the blogger didn't want to hurt my book. I asked her to post it. I asked because I don't want people with her tastes to read my book. I'd much prefer people who might enjoy it to find their way to it. I'm the only one or two star review on that site. She normally posts her reviews to GR and A, but hasn't in my case - one day I'll get around to asking her to post the review on GR and A.


message 18: by W. (new)

W. Boutwell | 157 comments Jamie wrote: "Deidre wrote: "I just blogged about this today, actually, though my deduction was fairly different. Often when I receive a review offer, I find that if I ask for total honesty, even if it results i..."

You are a good deal more confident than I am. Nevertheless, the destruction of the review system will bring chaos. Almighty A has some control in that it will label the review "verified purchase."
This will halt the McViews to the extent that multiple personas will have to purchase new copies.
However, if anyone believes that they can make money out of reviews they will do it.


message 19: by G.A. (last edited Jan 13, 2016 04:24AM) (new)

G.A. Stratton | 3 comments I have received 2 offers from McViewers, very disappointing.
I don't give reviews for books I don't finish and start at 3, 4 or 5 stars. I am always respectful of the time and effort an author devotes to writing a book.
I prefer honest reviews for my book, if I can get any. However, marketing is my first priority.


message 20: by T.L. (new)

T.L. Clark (tlcauthor) | 727 comments Riley wrote: "Http://truereviewpledge.com
Already fighting the good fight, brother!"


Well done! Thank you. I've now signed up to this.

It really bugs me when I see authors who clearly have fake reviews.

Erego, you don't even have to pay for them either.
I've been invited to a few groups who band together to leave 5* reviews; they simply read other reviews, slightly reword and post. Disgraceful!!

I want HONEST reviews only.
If someone thinks my writing's sh#t then I want to know why. How can I improve? (should I bother continuing writing??)
If someone loves my books then great; it gives me motivation to carry on.

What does a fake reivew give me?
Nuffin! And people are learning to spot the fakes now, and so they're opening themselves up to trolls (and serves them right, not that I condone trolls you understand).

If I've read a book that is less than 3* I will contact the author (as they've probably asked me to read their book anyway), and I will gently advise things like getting a proof reader etc.

Sadly, the only way to truly stop fake reviewers is to stop all reviews; scumbags will always find a way if there's a profit in it for them :-(


message 21: by G.G. (last edited Jan 13, 2016 08:38AM) (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments What are your stance about authors who contact you for a read and review and after you accept, they send you the books with a note NOT to post a review unless it is a 4 or a 5? I'm asking because it happened to me and it was hard to even open the books and start reading. (I didn't go far in anyway but that's another story). I see that many of you won't post anyway if it is not a 4 or 5 but is having the author 'order' you before hand a deal breaker? It is for me. I don't post many bad reviews but I want to have the free will to do so if I feel I should. :/

Edited: a not too many that made the sentence unclear.


message 22: by Riley, Viking Extraordinaire (new)

Riley Amos Westbrook (sonshinegreene) | 1521 comments Mod
G.G. wrote: "What are your stance about authors who contact you for a read and review and after you accept, they send you the books with a note NOT to post a review unless it is not a 4 or a 5? I'm asking becau..."

I wouldn't read the book, and I would tell the author why. Like you GG, I don't like it when someone tries to "force" me into a corner.
So, I'd send them their e-mail back, explaining that my reviews are honest, you can either take it or leave it.


message 23: by Christina (new)

Christina McMullen (cmcmullen) G.G. wrote: "What are your stance about authors who contact you for a read and review and after you accept, they send you the books with a note NOT to post a review unless it is not a 4 or a 5? I'm asking becau..."

Definite deal breaker. This is the main reason I won't review books when other authors ask. I'm an author, not a reviewer. I write reviews of books I enjoyed as a courtesy and not as an obligation. If someone were to request that I not only read for review, but also posts stipulatiins as to what I can and can't say, they would get reported.


message 24: by Deidre (new)

Deidre Huesmann (redpandabear) | 7 comments The stance on not posting lesser star reviews because it'll hurt the author bothers me. The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers. It's a nice sentiment but why offer to post a review if you're worried about the author's feelings? What about the reviewers who deserve to hear all opinions before making a purchase?

It feels like lying for profit to me.


message 25: by Kathi (new)

Kathi Brettell | 36 comments I don't post reviews of less than 4. If I read a book and find it only worthy (in my honest opinion) of less than 4, then I contact the author privately and give my views on what I find lacking. I've found the authors email, PM'd their Facebook page, or some other route, and if I can't find a way to privately give my response, I let it go without giving a rating. I don't think anyone benefits from 1 or 2 stars without an explanation.
However, my own book has received a couple of 1 and 2 stars (all without any comments), out of over 70 positive reviews, and my feeling is that even Hemingway's, The Old Man and the Sea received 1 and 2 stars - so go figure. Lol Can't please everyone.


message 26: by Riley, Viking Extraordinaire (new)

Riley Amos Westbrook (sonshinegreene) | 1521 comments Mod
Deidre wrote: "The stance on not posting lesser star reviews because it'll hurt the author bothers me. The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers. It's a nice sentiment but why offer to post a rev..."

First off, I don't finish a book I won't rate at least 3 stars. I chalk it up to being "not my cup of tea".
2nd, I'd like to know how I can "lie for profit" as I seem to have made no money doing this.
Yes, reviews are for readers, and I didn't say I won't post it out of fear of hurting the other authors feelings. I said I won't post it because some people are just starting out. Should I take and rip away their confidence, leave them bleeding out in the gutter? Or should I take the time to point out to them what I liked, didn't like, and help uplift them instead of shoving them under the bus.


message 27: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Thanks guys. I'm glad to see I am not alone. :)
Like Christina, I'm an author who writes reviews as a courtesy because I know how much it means to other authors. I do post three stars reviews and when I do, it do because I feel the book still deserves a review. Thing that bothered me may very well be something others will love. Knowing in advance I wouldn't even be able to do that makes me feel I'd be wasting my time. It's not like I don't have plenty of other books to read for which an author wouldn't mind a three. :P


message 28: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Christina wrote: "If someone were to request that I not only read for review, but also posts stipulatiins as to what I can and can't say, they would get reported. ..."

I didn't know you could report them. To whom do you do?


message 29: by J C (new)

J C Steel (jcsteel) G.G. wrote: "What are your stance about authors who contact you for a read and review and after you accept, they send you the books with a note NOT to post a review unless it is a 4 or a 5? I'm asking because i..."

If someone told me what to write I'd refuse a review. Got plenty of other books lined up to review. :)


message 30: by Christina (new)

Christina McMullen (cmcmullen) Deidre wrote: "The stance on not posting lesser star reviews because it'll hurt the author bothers me. The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers. It's a nice sentiment but why offer to post a rev..."

*I* am the only author I'm protecting.

If I were to go around posting one and two star reviews (I don't post threes only because I am a love it or hate it kind of person) of books, not only am I opening myself up to retalliation reviews, but I will also look like an ass. I read and review books in the same genres that I write. I don't want it to look like I'm deliberately trying to bash my 'competition' so I avoid unnecessary conflict.


message 31: by Christina (new)

Christina McMullen (cmcmullen) G.G. wrote: "Christina wrote: "If someone were to request that I not only read for review, but also posts stipulatiins as to what I can and can't say, they would get reported. ..."

I didn't know you could repo..."


If they send you a message through Goodreads you can flag it for abuse.


message 32: by Joe (new)

Joe Jackson (shoelessauthor) I just wanted to mention, in the context of people only wanting 4 and 5 star reviews, that if you look, Goodreads says that 3 stars is still "I liked it." 3 stars is still a "positive" review according to that, anyway. For me, a 3-star was a good book that was just missing one little attribute that would've made it 4 or even 5 stars.


message 33: by Mysti (new)

Mysti Parker | 19 comments I've gotten several spam messages here on Goodreads (and elsewhere) offering the same thing. Obvious they are fake accounts. Check the right hand side of the message window--there should be a "message actions" list. One of those is "flag", so you can flag them and add a little description. The more these get flagged, the more GR staff will take notice (I hope).

I strive for honest reviews, both in getting and giving. I don't do review swaps, don't pay for reviews, unless you count book blog tours that include them, but you're not paying the actual readers, just the blog tour organizer.

Hi, by the way, I just joined after seeing this thread on my GR home page :)


message 34: by J C (new)

J C Steel (jcsteel) Deidre wrote: "The stance on not posting lesser star reviews because it'll hurt the author bothers me. The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers. It's a nice sentiment but why offer to post a rev..."

First of all, I take offense at being called a liar: I do not post dishonest reviews and I do not provide dishonest feedback.

Second, I don't charge for my reviews, so I'm uncertain how I can be lying for profit.

I also like to think my reviews help both the author and potential readers. The author gets either a review, or a review and my feedback, or just my feedback. The reader gets a fairly detailed review to read and base an opinion on, if I post one at all, which clearly gives genre / book type.


message 35: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Christina wrote: "G.G. wrote: "Christina wrote: "If someone were to request that I not only read for review, but also posts stipulatiins as to what I can and can't say, they would get reported. ..."

I didn't know y..."


Oh they were clever enough to send by emails with the books. :/

And I agree with your other statement as for reviews. I think that's the policy on Amazon too. Authors can review other authors as long as it's positive reviews. Maybe what I heard is wrong but I'm like you. I'm afraid of sock puppets that can destroy your hard work just because you happened not to like a book. No matter what people say, or think, a lot of 1* can hurt...


message 36: by K.P. (new)

K.P. Merriweather (kp_merriweather) | 266 comments lolz wut folks only want 4 or higher reviews? pfft 3 is decent. I was happy was the 3s I got because it as decent. I know my work isn't for everyone (it's a hard sell as it is) and if someone took the time and gave my work a 3 it meant they understood what I was getting across (bonus in my book since most don't). sure I had a few 2's because they didn't get it and I expected that (I don't write typical mainstream stuff in the first place) but the concensus was it was well written so Im still cool with that nonetheless. I wish the climate wasn't as it is now but that's the nature of the beast these days and hopefully it doesn't get out of hand. however it is and if banding together to make sure folks stay honest and we as authors keep cranking out quality the best way to stop the sock puppetry I'm all for it.
keep working hard y'all. that's all we can do.


message 37: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Joe wrote: "I just wanted to mention, in the context of people only wanting 4 and 5 star reviews, that if you look, Goodreads says that 3 stars is still "I liked it." 3 stars is still a "positive" review accor..."

You are entirely right. A three star for me is a good book, a book I don't regret spending time reading. :)


message 38: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Mysti wrote: "I've gotten several spam messages here on Goodreads (and elsewhere) offering the same thing. Obvious they are fake accounts. Check the right hand side of the message window--there should be a "mess..."

Hey Mysti! Welcome aboard. Good to see you here. :) I was wondering when you'd decide to come. :P I know.... I could have send an invite, but I also know you're busy and one more group might not have been included in your plans. ;)

Mysti is the kind person who got me in a cool online writing course. I won a free subscription on a Facebook event she had organized. :)


message 39: by Riley, Viking Extraordinaire (new)

Riley Amos Westbrook (sonshinegreene) | 1521 comments Mod
Mysti wrote: "I've gotten several spam messages here on Goodreads (and elsewhere) offering the same thing. Obvious they are fake accounts. Check the right hand side of the message window--there should be a "mess..."

Welcome to the group!


message 40: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments K.P. wrote: "lolz wut folks only want 4 or higher reviews? pfft 3 is decent. I was happy was the 3s I got because it as decent. I know my work isn't for everyone (it's a hard sell as it is) and if someone took ..."

I like how you see it. A three is a good review. It is also someone who took time not only to read a book but also to review the book with his or her fair opinion. I'm happy myself with any reviews that shows up from someone who took their precious time to do so. :)


message 41: by Anthony Deeney (new)

Anthony Deeney | 437 comments K.P. wrote: "lolz wut folks only want 4 or higher reviews? pfft 3 is decent. I was happy was the 3s I got because it as decent. I know my work isn't for everyone (it's a hard sell as it is) and if someone took ..."

I agree that a 3* is decent. If you mouse-over 3* on Goodreads it comes up as "I liked it," but on Amazon it is rated as a critical review. Go figure.


message 42: by Hákon (new)

Hákon Gunnarsson | 53 comments About a year ago a book which I had one story in got a two and a half star review, and my story was said to be an interesting experiment that failed. Strange as it may sound I was happy with that review, because it was the first time my work has got a mention in main stream media in Iceland. So even though the review isn't a good one, I still felt it was a step in the right direction to get mentioned.


message 43: by Chikamso (last edited Jan 13, 2016 11:01AM) (new)

Chikamso Efobi (cheexy) | 92 comments Just to also note that I also received the spam messages from an individual with a name which starts with a "J". The first time, the person actually posted the same message he/she sent to my goodreads as a comment on my blog. A1 for effort I'll say. Anyway, I flagged it to goodreads and I received a reply saying that the individual's account had been deleted. Two days later, I received the same message from the same account. While pondering what to do, I discovered a fairly hidden block button on the right hand side of the message (using the desktop version), and used it. I have not received any more messages from the individual.


message 44: by Mysti (new)

Mysti Parker | 19 comments Chikamso wrote: "Just to also note that I also received the spam messages from an individual with a name which starts with a "J". The first time, the person actually posted the same message he/she sent to my goodre..."

Right, yes, block them too. I forgot to mention that. It's really sad the things these shady people and even authors resort to just to get ahead. I've learned a lot of that here on Goodreads. :/

Hiya GG!! Proud to see how well you're doing! I'm glad to be here too. Been following some threads for a while but I don't participate in a lot of groups. It's hard to keep up and I hesitate to join if I know I'm not going to be able to post a lot.


message 45: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Chikamso wrote: "Just to also note that I also received the spam messages from an individual with a name which starts with a "J". The first time, the person actually posted the same message he/she sent to my goodre..."

I think I know whom you mean and that's the one I was talking about. :/

Misty, I understand. I have problems following them all too. I end up having to let go of some and only keep up with the more interesting ones. There are only so many hours in a day. :P


message 46: by Denae (new)

Denae Christine (denaechristine) | 167 comments Deidre wrote: "The stance on not posting lesser star reviews because it'll hurt the author bothers me. The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers. It's a nice sentiment but why offer to post a rev..."
As a reader, I find critical reviews more useful than the ones that only say nice things. If there are several bad reviews on a book, I can feel prepared for any "bad" thing I may read in the story.

Christina wrote: "I am an author, not a reviewer."
Same here! I review for the fun of it, for my own benefit. If other readers find my reviews useful in finding books they'll enjoy, that's a bonus.


message 47: by L.J. (new)

L.J. Kendall (luke_kendall)

Apologies for this delayed and scattershot post - I've been away for a day.

J.C.: Sure, any wise author would prefer honest, constructive criticism. But I imagine most would prefer highly critical material to be shared somewhat more privately than on Amazon or Goodreads.

Christina: "Reviews are nice, but no, they are not and should not be treated as a marketing tool."
I beg to differ: if you're not traditionally published, the "received wisdom" is that reviews are vitally important for your marketing.

T.L. wrote: "Sadly, the only way to truly stop fake reviewers is to stop all reviews"
I disagree strongly. Because good people heavily outnumber bad people, if good people put in place methods for dealing with bad people, the damage they do can be reined in. It's how human societies work, after all.

G.G. asked what people do if they're sent a book, but told "Don't post a review unless it's 4 or 5 stars"?
To me, that's clearly another attempt to produce an inflated rating for the book: in my view, it's asking you to help them cheat. Not to mention wasting your time if you didn't especially want to read it anyway and it's not 4/5 stars! I would refuse.

Deidre wrote: "The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers."
Again, I don't think it's that simple. In my view, reviews serve both those purposes. And more.

Chikamso wrote: "I flagged it to goodreads and I received a reply saying that the individual's account had been deleted. Two days later, I received the same message from the same account."
That's disturbing: do you mean the Goodreads people said they deleted the account, but didn't?! What's the point in reporting them, if nothing happens? Could you explain a bit more?

Mysti recommended blocking them. But if you do that, how can you check that they've been put out of action so they can't continue doing harm from that account? How would you know to chase up to find out why their account hadn't been deleted?

BTW, they did not contact me via Goodreads, but via my blog, http://toeinthebookocean.blogspot.com.... In the email, he claimed to have 30 Goodreads accounts.

I find the topic of reviews very interesting, and I'm enjoying the discussion.

The whole question of the best practice for giving reviews is interesting. How do you define "best" though - should it be best for the readers? Best for the author? Best for both together?

My point of view is that if a book is such that I'd only rate it as two stars or less, I believe the book's "goodness" would be pretty obvious to most readers anyway - they'll see that for themselves if the bother to "look inside". So a 1 or 2 star rating does little for the readers, but it would probably hurt the author if posted publicly. So my plan is to provide such feedback to the author privately, if possible. But if the author has no means of contact, I'd not bother reviewing. But all that said, since I have so far only reviewed books I've chosen to buy, I so far haven't had the necessity of dealing with the issue.

But what I had hoped, when I kicked off this topic, was that we would focus on the problem which I see as far more significant: that of fake reviews, since:

1) that practice undermines the whole value of reviews, and

2) reviews could be the key to evolving self-publishing/indie-publishing to provide better books and better discovery of books than what the traditional publishing industry manages to achieve!

Which reminds me of Christina's note: "As for the original email claiming to have sock puppet accounts here on Goodreads, yes Luke, you absolutely need to forward that to Goodreads. I'm sure there's a contact us link from your dashboard. "
Sorry for being a dope, but I just spent 10 mins looking for any sort of "contact us" link (on my author dashboard), but failed. Could you hit me with a clue stick, please? :-)

But it does I suppose bring the topic back to what I wanted to discuss: how we might defend ourselves from this practice. I'm happy to forward the email to the appropriate person, as soon as I find out who that is, but what's the next step?

Let's assume he hasn't used an email address linked to any of his Goodreads accounts. How can we discover who he is, and better still, the identities of his 30 fake Goodreads users, so their reviews can be reported and deleted, and the authors of the books reviews contacted and informed that by buying reviews they are damaging the ecosystem (and they should stop buying reviews), and that the reviews are being reported and deleted?

I don't really want to buy his services, just to perhaps ask him to make sure to mention the something specific enough to allow GR to identify his reviews. I don't want to dirty my reputation by buying reviews, even if it's just for a short period. And he may not even be doing reviews: he might just be trawling for credit card details to try to abuse.

I don't have a good answer, which is why I hope we can collectively brainstorm some.

Here's some possibly-controversial ideas:

Idea 1? Should Goodreads require users to somehow authenticate themselves as an individual (e.g. a credit card or something), purely for use of identification if they begin doing evil stuff?

Idea 1? Should Goodreads allow users who so choose, to authenticate themselves in some way (as above), but only use that to flag the reviews of such people as "true individuals" (i.e. to create more trustable reviews)?

There might be better "identity keys" than a credit card, though I don't think such technology has been fully developed yet. I think it relates to trust networks and anonymisable identity, and is still an an area of research...

And again, apologies for this long post.




message 48: by G.G. (new)

G.G. (ggatcheson) | 2491 comments Luke wrote: "I don't really want to buy his services, just to perhaps ask him to make sure to mention the something specific enough to allow GR to identify his reviews. I don't want to dirty my reputation by buying reviews, even if it's just for a short period. And he may not even be doing reviews: he might just be trawling for credit card details to try to abuse...."

I received a PM from someone who was offering to give reviews and it was clearly from sock puppets. I didn't respond because like you I didn't want any, but also because if I was afraid that if I said so there might be retaliation. Anyway, that account was deleted a few hours later. I assume someone else had reported him/her. Now I don't know about his puppets.

Anyway, all that to say that in a case like that unless you can clearly hit a button report, I wouldn't dare answer that person. :/

IDEA 1: No. Definitely no. I'm tired of having to beg my husband to use his credit card just to get to places. I use Amazon gift cards and I still have to have a valid credit card to use them.
I know I'm probably the exception not having a card to my name but I also know that the minimum age here is too low for them having a credit card. They'd have to ask their parents and what if their parents are here too? Of course, some people have dozens of credit cards, so that might not stop sock puppets. :P

But aside from that, this would become another place for bad people to hack. :/

Sorry, from my answers you must now realize I'm a 'chicken' and don't trust much. :P


message 49: by L.J. (new)

L.J. Kendall (luke_kendall) G.G. wrote: "Luke wrote: "I don't really want to buy his services, just to perhaps ask him to make sure to mention the something specific enough to allow GR to identify his reviews. I don't want to dirty my rep..."

:-) Fair enough, though. I, too, am concerned at the prospect of sock puppets being used for retaliation.

I still feel that there must be ways to defend ourselves, if we're clever enough to think them up. Some form of ability to trust that a person is a real person, and to discover if an identity is just a shadow of a single source, would be immensely valuable, and I think would go a long way to solving the problem...


message 50: by Chikamso (last edited Jan 14, 2016 05:00AM) (new)

Chikamso Efobi (cheexy) | 92 comments Not to sound defeatist or anything like that, but save any of us actually getting employed to work for or heading up a reviews verification department within goodreads as an organisation, I don't see the point of proffering solutions which we are in no position to implement. We can only work with the tools we are given as users of the site and they are to either flag the messages we receive or block the sender of those messages. Any other solution would simply not be realistic. Just my two cents.


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