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I've figured out this Nephilim nonsense.
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So here's what we got to work with: Genesis 61When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown...
7So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
Genesis 7:
11In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 9:
28After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29All the days of Noah were 950 years, and he died.
Genesis 10:
6The sons of Ham: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan. 7The sons of Cush: Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabteca. The sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan. 8Cush fathered Nimrod; he was the first on earth to be a mighty man.
Genesis 11:
11And Shem lived after he fathered Arpachshad 500 years and had other sons and daughters.
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And here's where the confusion STARTS:
Numbers 13:33
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
Or, more correctly: Numbers 13.
The Reports of the Spies
…32So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. 33"There also we saw the Nephilim.
A BAD REPORT. How interesting. Remember that Genesis and Numbers were written at the end of the adventure.
So simply:Nephilim are VERY OLD people. Possibly tall.
These are the leftover folks from God's original 1000 year life spans. Especially as they started to dwindle down to the 120 year life spans.
"the sons of God" = Earlier people. Noah and family.
" the daughters of man" were attractive. = those who will live 120 years.
Eventually all ancient aged people died out. But the myth was legendary. The wimpy Spies even allowed it to frighten them and affect their decisions.
Anyone care so far? I would appreciate any holes poked in this theory. Before I sell it to DC Comics as truth.
It appears the book of JUDE is what confused many scholars. Jude 1:
6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire...
Angels left HEAVEN and that position of authority. Gloomy darkness may be spiritual blindness to truth. (no worse prison than that.) Now their natural position is that of a demon...no hope whatsoever.
Pursuing UNNATURAL DESIRE may be more important than abused sexual desire of Sodom & Gomorrah. Many scholars dwelled on the sex part and ignored the NATURAL part. The very nature of demons and human sin.
That's basically all I got. What thinkest thou?
My husband is a senior high youth group leader at our church, and this year the youth group pastor asked the kids for questions they wanted to discuss/find answers to (this is instead of a traditional lesson plan). The first three questions submitted were about the Nephilim, pre-destination and then mysticism. These kids are a bit more advanced than I was at their age, lol.
The discussion on the Nephilim is coming up soon and I'm very curious to read the notes, because it's one of those things that I've always been curious about, and have absolutely no idea what to make of it!
The discussion on the Nephilim is coming up soon and I'm very curious to read the notes, because it's one of those things that I've always been curious about, and have absolutely no idea what to make of it!
Apparently Cassandra Clare's books "Immortal Instruments series - City of Bones" is all about the Nephilim. It's similar to Twilight with Demon Hunters. Big fan fiction stuff. My wife is heavily into this world. (I prefer REAL Demons and Theology.)
Pre-destination is one of my favorite topics. God's election changed the way I read and understood the Entire Bible. (I'm glad God picked ME and didn't wait around for me to pick him.) Jesus would have NO BRIDE if it were up to us. Thankfully God chose the perfect gift for His Son.
Mysticism? I just assume it's Hinduism, mixed with some Buddhism, shuffled through some New Age nonsense. Basically modern Christianity A LA Rob Bell and liberal charismatic propaganda. "Everyone goes to heaven except those pesky Bible-loving Conservative Christian Reformers." Said by a non-existent Hippy Jesus guru that does NOT match that of the historical Bible.
We'll have to start some threads on those issues. They are very relevant to todays kids.
Rod wrote: "Apparently Cassandra Clare's books "Immortal Instruments series - City of Bones" is all about the Nephilim.
It's similar to Twilight with Demon Hunters. Big fan fiction stuff. My wife is heavily i..."
Ha, I live in Rob Bell territory-his former church is in town here (Mars Hill), and we visited back in the day when he still preached there. I'll stop there before I go on a rant lol.
It's similar to Twilight with Demon Hunters. Big fan fiction stuff. My wife is heavily i..."
Ha, I live in Rob Bell territory-his former church is in town here (Mars Hill), and we visited back in the day when he still preached there. I'll stop there before I go on a rant lol.
Back on topic: Genesis 63Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward
Maybe: Days of Noah... Days AFTER the flood!
As a kid - I assumed God just chopped all the long lives down from a thousand to 120. But this all shows He did it over a period of time.
another issue is that people wrote meanings into words and then labelled history based on those definitions.
So:
Was Nephilim "Giant Ones" written BACK into the story? Did Moses have an ancient dictionary with him? I doubt it.
Commentary comment:
"MEN in Genesis 6:1 describes all of humanity, while the same word in verse 2 designates only Cain's line.
My wife mentioned it would be interesting if it was:
Noah, His wife (Mrs. Noah), and his 3 sons who were actually Nephilim. The 3 women the sons married were simply daughters of men.
Genesis 6:
2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Noah's sons were the beginning of the end of VERY OLD people.
I don't think your theory is consistent enough. The day's of Noah are simply the days he was alive. And I don't think the confusion begins in Numbers 13The problem lies in verse 4 as the subject references the children of some sort of co-mingling that seemed to take place between the 'sons of God' and the 'daughters of man'. These children were 'heroes of old, men of renown'. Anywhere else in the Old Testament where the term 'Sons of God' is used (Job to my recollection) refers to angels.
When you add that to what Jude seems to be saying then it seems the best solution is just that, some form of spiritual creature (angels) tried to corrupt the human DNA line. Noah's line was clean (perfect in his generation) and so was chosen to preserve the human race.
How many times in Scripture is the line of the Messiah trying to be overthrown? At least a few I can think of. And I think this is one of them.
That, to me, is the most consistent solution. Doesn't mean it's correct, but if it isn't consistent it's definitely not. I just don't think the Sethite view works.
Indeed, Sons of God is a huge challenge.Remember we are working with almost 4000 year old accounts - and some of that is poetic or prophetic. Wordplay is often a huge concern.
I also think God has a great deal of fun with what we choose to do with words and meanings.
I agree: Days Of Noah are indeed the days He was alive. And verse 4 is definitely ALSO AFTER - maybe even the days of Moses (possibly not though.)
4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward
Hard to prove that Jude is about Angel sex. Unless you REALLY REALLY want it to be. If you read it as a paragraph - it is very much about rebellion.
The book of Enoch sheds a lot of light on this subject. Enoch was highly thought of in old testament times and in the new testament, being 7th from Adam, and considered a prophet. Though his letters didn't make it into final scripture of our bibles, his book is included in scripture in Christian churches in some parts of Africa. He calls them the Watchers as if their chief duty was to monitor the on-goings of the world from a lofty place. It is thought by some (high speculation warning) that the fallen angels sought to have a blood line of their own and that was the reason for their departure (Rebellion) from heaven and for their eternal punishment. It was their blood line that God was ridding the world of since it had polluted the human race. (Jesus bloodline had to be preserved at all costs, which is why Noah was chosen) In addition, they likely had intercourse with the animals of the earth which is why they too were included as targets of the flood. (remember those myths about mermaids and centaurs? makes you wonder.)
Seems like crazy talk right? :-)
Rod wrote: "Hard to prove that Jude is about Angel sex. Unless you REALLY REALLY want it to be. If you read it as a paragraph - it is very much about rebellion."I don't think that's hard to prove, though. Jude talks about the angels and then says 'just as Sodom and Gomorrah ... LIKEWISE indulged in sexual immorality.' There the 'unnatural desires' is just like the unnatural desires given over to those in Romans 1:26-27. There the unnatural desires deal with homosexuality specifically but it's still sexual immorality. For angels, I would suspect, it should be unnatural for them to desire human sexual intercourse as well.
So I don't think it's hard to prove. Again, it doesn't mean the view is absolutely correct, but I think it's the most consistent of any I've seen.
Rod wrote: "Remember we are working with almost 4000 year old accounts - and some of that is poetic or prophetic."
But we do have semitic language scholars and they should be able to help. Dr. Michael Heiser is one I know of has provided a lot of information into the worldview of the ancient Hebrews. His info can be found here: http://drmsh.com/
Yep, crazy talk. Very fun though. Thanks for adding to this discussion. Exciting.It is always interesting when these books pop-up and claim to be important. Then we find out:
Quote:
" in 1773, returned to Europe from six years in Abyssinia with three copies of a Ge'ez version.[63] One is preserved in the Bodleian Library, another was presented to the royal library of France, while the third was kept by Bruce. The copies remained unused until the 19th century."
Makes me think these books are later Comic books that the church mostly discarded for many many centuries. Apparently even the Jews paid little attention to it.
For a world questing for (and desperately abusing) religion and mystical behaviors and traditions... This book meant little to NOTHING. Now that's strange.
Hmmm... a bloodline of angels? Do angels bleed? Or need reproducing? Not according to the other 2000 pages of the Bible. We don't even really know what Demons desire -- other than rebellion.
Thanks Chris. I agreed with your points until a few months ago. The Bible is a tricky book.
Similar to when Jesus said "Why do you call me good? Only God is GOOD!"
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Jude 1
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Although looking at the world around us today: I don't think sexual abuse is really that big a priority to God. OR he'd quickly take care of it.
Sex never killed anyone or a nation: But destroying Natural Desire does. It removed the angels from Heaven and turned them into Demons.
And Genesis tells us that the Nephilim weren't really dealt with. Some lived on. That's kind of sloppy for God - must not have been such a big deal.
Right now i'm disagreeing. (because it's fun and because I think i'm right!) But also because it might help us get all the cards on the table. The more stuff the better.Worst case scenario:
Demons got freaky with some ladies and made Centaur's that turned into Goliaths and are now legendary Comic Book celebrities.
A Piece of the puzzle. Book of Job.6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
and...
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
If Satan ain't the worst of them? Wow!
I'm curious how exactly SONS OF GOD is credited as referring to Heavenly beings? Sounds like it might be a forced bias.
Quote
"The Hebrew idiom Sons Of can be used of a group that is led by a figure referred to as their FATHER." Was Adam an Angel?
Were the "Sons of" presenting themselves to God as simple as Cain and Abel bringing sacrifices: Genesis 4
. 3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, 5but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen?
I'm just trying to very carefully read EXACTLY what is there. No more and no less. (Don't jump to Supernatural conclusions --- and don't belittle all of the Bible to liberal parables.) Unless that is called for.
Rod wrote: "I'm just trying to very carefully read EXACTLY what is there. No more and no less. (Don't jump to Supernatural conclusions..."Seems our presuppositions are different so we won't agree. I believe the Bible to be a supernatural book and will, therefore, present supernatural ideas and conclusions. The people who wrote it were certainly believers of a supernatural universe. Maybe supernatural is a poor term... I believe it to be the greater reality though.
Rod wrote: "Demons got freaky with some ladies and made Centaur's that turned into Goliaths and are now legendary Comic Book celebrities. ..."I don't think it's just for the sake of rebellion. I think the goal is to thwart the coming Messiah who is to be the undoing of the adversaries of God. I don't believe the genealogies in the Bible are there for window dressing.
The first promise of Messiah comes from Genesis 3:15. It was simply promised from the human race and there was no narrowing focus yet. The Messiah is promised to be a son of Adam.
Only in Genesis 12 do we see the direction go from the human race entirely to the tribe of Abraham. In Genesis 21 we see it being handed to Isaac, and then to Jacob and from Jacob to Judah in Genesis 49. From Judah to David in 2 Samuel 7 and obviously that goes through the Kings to finally reach Jesus, the culmination of which.
Throughout this time there are numerous attempts to undo these promises or render them impossible. The final one what is called the massacre of the innocents.
Rod wrote: "Was Adam an Angel? "No, he is referred to as a son of God in the New Testament in Luke. But all of his descendants are always referred to as sons of Adam (or son of man).
Rod wrote: "If Satan ain't the worst of them? Wow!"
I'm not sure how you get that from the text?
Rod wrote: "I'm curious how exactly SONS OF GOD is credited as referring to Heavenly beings? Sounds like it might be a forced bias. "
That would depend on what you see as being 'forced'. I don't think it's forced when the the idiom is used consistently in a certain manner. I would think that a 'direct' living cognitive creation of God would be more appropriate.
THanks Chris, good stuff - I'll keep looking into this over the years. Chris comment:
"Seems our presuppositions are different so we won't agree. I believe the Bible to be a supernatural book and will, therefore, present supernatural ideas and conclusions. "
I agree PaRtiALLy.
This Nephilim topic (for me) is about God reducing humanities age limit from a thousand to 120. So that is rather supernatural in nature.
Once again. I think this Nephilim issue is ALL ABOUT MAN. Look again.
Genesis 6
1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
Really there is nothing about Angels or supernatural there. Just God/mankind/history.
I'm still toying with this: so thanks for letting me think out loud.
Here's a fun thought:"1When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose."
What if this is moving the storyline back to Cain and Abel. Mark of Cain silliness? NO, more just recapping up to the point of Noah.
Just thinking:Does the Nephilim even matter in any way? Is salvation attached to this?
Only if people assume demons can still breed with humanity. Which i'm not convinced is shown anywhere else in scripture. "God doesn't make mistakes."
Rod wrote: "Really there is nothing about Angels or supernatural there. Just God/mankind/history. ..."But that depends on who the 'sons of God' are. If they are simply human beings then sure. But if they are not human, then they should be attempted to identify as best we are able. I don't know what else you are left with in light of other passages.
Why would it matter that human beings are procreating? What is the issue with their offspring? Up this point there has been no commandment about tribal affiliation or anything of the sort; and yet Noah is 'perfect in his generation.' What does that mean?
But if they are angelic (fallen), then it does make sense in light of Genesis 3:15 where the Messiah is promised to come from a human lineage and there will be a battle between Satan's offspring and the Messiah.
Rod wrote: "Does the Nephilim even matter in any way? Is salvation attached to this?..."
It's definitely not salvific. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't matter. How you interpret even non-essential issues will play a role in how you interpret God's working in human history as a whole. So while it's a bit abstract in how it matters in the Christian life, it still matters.
Rod wrote: "Only if people assume demons can still breed with humanity. Which i'm not convinced is shown anywhere else in scripture. "
Well that goes back to Genesis 3:15. Who is Satan's offspring? How does he come about? Further, there are several areas where angels take on human form. The author of Hebrews even warns us that we could be entertaining them without knowing it.
Rod wrote: ""God doesn't make mistakes." ..."
But that's irrelevant. Nowhere does this view presume a mistake on God's part.
I think your view lacks consistency. I believe the view I am presenting has much more biblical credence in light of taking as much of Scripture as possible into account.
I do appreciate the discussion. It's always a fun topic to get into.
I heartily disagree with you Chris - but you are bringing up some great stuff. I hope you do change my mind though. Hopefully we can throw a lot more at this. Like Satan's offspring vs. God's.Why didn't the Bible simply say Angels or Demons? Instead of sons of God?
Language isn't my specialty - but I'm sceptical of it.
This type of issue has relevance to a few other things I'm working on. Not the Nephilim issue - but the use of words in scripture being vague or craftily misleading... Election fits heavily in this category... So does Hell... And Faith.
Rod wrote: "Why didn't the Bible simply say Angels or Demons? Instead of sons of God? "I don't know. Why are things vague in one place or explicit in another? I wonder if you are presuming that angels and demons were always called such. Job and early Genesis are certainly the oldest items found in Scripture. In fact some believe Genesis was mostly compiled by Moses (instead of written by) and the earliest parts of which were actually written and passed down from the time of Adam. Both Job and Genesis use the term sons of God. Maybe the terms slowly changed over the course of human history?
Angel simply means 'messenger'. Jesus shows up in the Old Testament as 'The Angel of Yahweh'. Why don't the theophanies of Jesus in the Old Testament just say it's Jesus? I half think your question is loaded to begin with. But I have some ideas around why things are this way. As you say:
Rod wrote: "but the use of words in scripture being vague or craftily misleading..."
You are assuming they are misleading as though intentionally so. But I've always thought the Old Testament idiomatic in order to produce wonder in the one who is reading and studying it seriously. Proverbs 25:2 says it's God's glory to conceal items and the duty of kings to search them out.
Hebrew is much more of a playful language. It lends itself to wordplay and mystery. Greek is the exact opposite. So you will hear some scholars state things like Jesus is concealed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New.
So it makes sense to me that God delights in us searching His Word and not simply using it as though it's nothing more than a reference manual or dictionary. It falls in line with seeking God diligently instead of getting a quick easy and concrete answer.
I am a fan of God's playfulness.Thanks Chris.
It is fun watching how the Bible allows different spiritual folks to abuse theology.Charismatics have endless fun with certain sentences. We wouldn't have Jehovah's Witnesses without Word distortion. Mormon's took what little they could and added a side story. Then there' s all the cults that twist every bit of teaching they can (while always missing the obvious).
Then we have Deepak Chopra insisting that Jesus was always teaching God-consciousness to gnostic disciples. (while ignoring the other 95% of the Bible).
Roman Catholics have done basically the same thing: took a few tricky verses and built an oppressive empire out of them.
I think some bits of the Bible might just be so angels can laugh at us as we squirm to apply our desires.
But it seems this entire discussion really comes down to:Sons of God and Daughters of Man.
Rod - In my book Creation Strikes Back, I posit that Nephilim were actually Gorillas the "doomed to wander" offspring of Cain ran across in their peregrinations in Africa.
I doubt God reduced the age of humanity because Gorillas were wandering and snatching some ladies. Nothing a few hunters couldn't have taken care of.Robert most people argue the opposite: That SONS OF GOD means they are heavenly beings --- Gorillas seems to be going the other direction. Marrying gorillas? Who gave the bride away in that scenario?
Genesis 6
2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
Genesis 61When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.
I do think it's a bit of an insult for God to say "My Spirit Shall Not abide In Gorillas forever..."
Much more theological to assume Noah (and SONS) was a thousand year old Nephilim --- and later all humans were reduced to 120 years.
Well Rod, at least Gorillas exist. I'll accept angels and demons as they are mentioned frequently throughout Scripture, but Nephilim are pretty much a one off. Maybe they are like Ebenezer Scrooge's dab of mustard or undigested bit of cheese. I'm sure Mormons and Islamists would like the polygamist bit, but I feel this episode is just another Old Testament scribe getting carried away with his storytelling ability.
Robert wrote: "I'm sure Mormons and Islamists would like the polygamist bit, but I feel this episode is just another Old Testament scribe getting carried away with his storytelling ability. "Seems a low view of Scripture to hold if that's what you think.
Another question: How did the Nephilim survive the flood? Were they tall enough to keep their heads above water?Numbers 13:33, We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
btw, the book of Jubilees explains that most, but not all, were swept away in the flood.
Here is a bit more about the Nephilim from 1 Enoch:And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it...
The winning scholarly (pop-culture understanding - same thing?) is that fallen angels did something sexual with the ladies. I don't think so...
Before I discuss this: Does anyone care???
It is impressive how often Nephilim comes up in television and books...as well as videogames and even music.
I have yet to find a Biblical commentary that agrees with me and my understanding. Which is funny --- because all I did was read the Bible a little slower than usual to find the written point.
Anyone? Your thoughts?
I don't recall: Did Buffy the Vampire Slayer ever deal with Nephilim? Hmmmm.