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The Voyage Out
The Voyage Out - Spine 2016
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Discussion - Week One - The Voyage Out - Chapter I - VII
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Cphe wrote: "Some of the prose was like looking through "sepia colored glass" I agree.
The opening couple of pages had some descriptions of Helen's depression that ring rather true to life -- it probably isn't too far from how Woolf felt around the time of her first breakdown.
Helen was obviously distressed as she walked to the ship. I may have missed something, because I kept trying to figure out why the Ambroses left their children behind. Maybe it was generally understood that people of their class left the children to be educated in English private schools. After all, parents used to send their children from India to Britain at great emotional cost. I read the book many moons ago, and it still grips me. All Virginia Woolf's books do. Like Septimus in Mrs Dalloway, she sees beneath the surface of our lives, the inherent reality of human existence , stripped of everything. It can be bleak, yet her writing transcends it all. (in some senses, it could be said that it did not save her life).
The book is worth reading if only for the observation of people, character, of the exchanges between them, and of course the superb writing. It is Edwardian England, but the humanity is universal.
As for the island, it may be imaginary, but I can visualize it in all its glorious colour.
I think I've reached ch. X
I love her writing. Both her stream of consciousness and this more straightforward prose. Reading about Clarissa and Richard makes me want to read Mrs. Dalloway again. I'm liking Rachel. It seems like there is quite a bit of Virginia in her.
Amanda wrote: "I love her writing. Both her stream of consciousness and this more straightforward prose. Reading about Clarissa and Richard makes me want to read Mrs. Dalloway again. I'm liking Rachel. It seems l..."I, too, like Rachel. Behind the subdued exterior is that wonderful interior life.
I also couldn't figure out why Helen was like that... at first I thought they were going to a funeral...
Mod
Chapter VII has a paragraph "explaining" Helen's rationale for traveling without her children. On page 90 in my edition, begins:
"Oddly enough it happened that the least satisfactory of Helen Ambrose's brothers had been sent out years before ... She too had been stirred by talk of a new world ... and the chance, when they were planning to spend the winter out of England, seemed too good to be missed. For these reasons she determined to accept Willoughby's offer of free passages on his ship, to place the children with their grand-parents ..."
Considering the story takes place after the suffrage movement is well on its way, it seems reasonable that Woolf would present us with a woman who was willing to place her desires above her duties to her children, and take a vacation. For balance, she shows Helen's anguish over having made that decision in the opening pages.
BTW, I just posted some general discussion questions for this project. You can check it out here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
"It appeared that nobody ever said a thing they meant, or ever talked of a feeling they felt, but that was what music was for. Reality dwelling in what one saw and felt, but did not talk about, one could accept a system in which things went round and round quite satisfactorily to other people, without often troubling to think about it, except as something superficially strange."I had to laugh a little at the ending scene of Chapter II. Rachel is so familiar, like a dreamy teenager from a more recent era. She's sequestered in her room with her music and idle thoughts, having a difficult time engaging with the adult world or caring about its expectations of her, trying (and failing) to connect with the older people in her life who understand her just as little. When Helen checks in on Rachel and sees her napping in her messy room, "slacker" is what would have popped into her head if this were a recent book. Just replace the sheet music with records spread out all over the floor, and this is a page from my own anti-social youth spent in devotion of my favorite bands.
Thanks. Another layer to think about. Women were considering their own needs as autonomous beings. Virginia's sister Vanessa was maternal yet pursued her career as an artist. (she had help in the house.....) Helen is loosely based on her.it's interesting to observe the different reactions to their cicumstances of the women in the novel.
Chapter IV, Rachel is talking to Richard"There's an old widow in her room, somewhere, let us suppose in the suburbs of Leeds."...."In London you're spending your life...."
Can anyone shed light on what Rachel is asking here? Or what point she is making?
Liz wrote: "Can anyone shed light on what Rachel is asking here? Or what point she is making?"Rachel is pointing out to Richard that while his policies may provide incremental improvements to the minutia of people's lives (e.g. the contents of the old widow's cabinets), they do not make people feel any better about themselves. The old widow is stil lonely and poor.
Rachel is being a social liberal: espousing the view that everyone deserves to be living the best life possible. Richard's response is partly "well, that's not really possible", and partly "look, we're making what improvements we can, and these improvements will in some ways make people feel better (if only because they are less miserable), so we're doing what we can".
Richard is basically laying out the old "men are thinking creatures, while women are feeling creatures" canard, but Rachel doesn't seem to be disproving it.
Rachel seems to have led such a sheltered life. I wonder that she knows enough to posit the question. I love the contrasts between Helen, Clarissa and Rachel. Helen seems so jaded, and Clarissa is so optimistic and ready to see the good in anything. I think Rachel's nature is closer to Clarissa's than Helen's, but she has so little experience of the world thus far. It will be interesting to watch this character develop.
Casceil wrote: "...I wonder that she knows enough to posit the question. ..."I adored it that Rachel did -- and that Woolf gave it to her. I agree, a bit of precociousness. Like Liz, I stumbled over what Woolf was doing here. Mkfs comments are even clearer than where I got on my own.
I also loved the interaction of Helen and Clarissa in her sick room -- and that Clarissa told Richard to be kind to Helen, which to him apparently included telling Helen she had pretty hands.
"...[Helen] could not help respecting [Clarissa's] spirit and her desire, even in the throes of sickness, for a tidy bedroom..."
"He remarked that the hands that moved about the cups were beautiful.
" 'I hear you've been very good to my wife,' he said."
Woolf, Virginia (2012-05-17). The Voyage Out (pp. 42-43). . Kindle Edition.
(The surrounding text is relevant, too.)
Casceil wrote: "Rachel seems to have led such a sheltered life. I wonder that she knows enough to posit the question. I love the contrasts between Helen, Clarissa and Rachel. Helen seems so jaded, and Clarissa is ..."Mkfs wrote: "Liz wrote: "Can anyone shed light on what Rachel is asking here? Or what point she is making?"
Rachel is pointing out to Richard that while his policies may provide incremental improvements to the..."
The difference in outlook between a young girl with hardly any experience of life and a middle-aged man with a past is evident here. Rachel is being exposed to new environments and people.
I feel that Rachel would like to be like Clarissa. But she is very young, inexperienced and unconfident. Although 24 I associate her as a modern day 16 year old - still a bit lost. This is probably the first bit of excitement in her life.
Sheila wrote: ""It appeared that nobody ever said a thing they meant, or ever talked of a feeling they felt, but that was what music was for. Reality dwelling in what one saw and felt, but did not talk about, one..."Equate it to a modern teenager. Who want to go and talk to all the old people
It is an interesting passage. firstly, because some of the characters, in particular Rachel, feel the lack of deep communication, and secondly, it points to Virginia's desire that her writing should be like music, assaulting the senses simultaneously and touching our innermost being.(I cannot put my hand on the quote at the moment)
I was intrigued by the exchange between Rachel and Helen on Richard and Clarissa. I have been reading elsewhere a book where the dialogue has been deemed flat and awkward. I asked myself if the same is true here, but it seems more as if the awkwardness here is from the reticence about the subject matter than from the choice of words to represent the conversation. "... [Helen] could think of no way of easing the difficulty except by going on talking. She wanted to make her niece talk, and so to understand..."
Woolf, Virginia (2012-05-17). The Voyage Out (p. 49). . Kindle Edition.
Almost as if only more words, regardless of how succinctly relevant, could bring forth the comprehension desired? Helen guesses the situation (Rachel's naivety), but isn't quite sure. Or perhaps isn't sure, given the conventions of her day and station, how to impart what she suspects Rachel needs to know. What she does finally say seems more than faintly ridiculous to today's ear. But Rachel's response and comprehension is very feminist in tone:
"'So that's why I can't walk alone!'
"By this new light she saw her life for the first time a creeping hedged-in thing, driven cautiously between high walls, here turned aside, there plunged in darkness, made dull and crippled for ever— her life that was the only chance she had—..."
Ibid.
I find myself struggling to understand these words simply in terms of the text without overlaying what is deemed to be known about Virginia's own experiences at this point. But for the moment, I'm trying to ignore her bio. And consider it just a crying out to not be shackled by gender.
Lily wrote: "I was intrigued by the exchange between Rachel and Helen on Richard and Clarissa. I have been reading elsewhere a book where the dialogue has been deemed flat and awkward. I asked myself if the sam..."This is an interesting exchange—maybe the first time Rachel and Helen really converse with each other? For me, these passages suggest that thanks to her experience with Richard and Helen's fumbling guidance, Rachel now comprehends what was only previously hinted to her about the risk of sexual desire. Her guardians had told her not to walk alone but never explained why—because as a single young woman Rachel would attract the "wrong" kind of attention and gain her an iffy reputation. Now she perceives how her life as a woman is restricted by implicit codes of sexual conduct.
Sheila wrote: "...Now she perceives how her life as a woman is restricted by implicit codes of sexual conduct. ..."Sheila -- you put into straight-forward words so well what VW says with story and dialogue!
I love your phrase which I hastily read as "Richard's and Helen's fumbling guidance" [g].
Lily wrote: "Sheila wrote: "...Now she perceives how her life as a woman is restricted by implicit codes of sexual conduct. ..."Sheila -- you put into straight-forward words so well what VW says with story an..."
Ha! I should have placed a comma after Richard. But "fumbling" does rather describe his encounter with Rachel too.
Cphe wrote: "It's as if Rachel had come out of hibernation with the introduction of the Dalloways. They are like a catalyst for Rachel to come out of herself and take an interest to those around her."A Snow White story? Not quite, but a little bit of the archetype of the girl awakening to her womanhood?
Cphe wrote: "It's as if Rachel had come out of hibernation with the introduction of the Dalloways. They are like a catalyst for Rachel to come out of herself and take an interest to those around her."Cphe wrote: "It's as if Rachel had come out of hibernation with the introduction of the Dalloways. They are like a catalyst for Rachel to come out of herself and take an interest to those around her."
I didn't much like the Dalloways - thought they were silly people. Also didn't like VW's "Mrs Dalloway"
“Warships, Dick! Over there! Look!”
… She had sighted two sinister grey vessels, low in the water, and bald as bone, one closely following the other with the look of eyeless beasts seeking their prey. Consciousness returned to Richard instantly.
“By George!” he exclaimed, and stood shielding his eyes.
“Ours Dick?” asked Clarissa.
“The Mediterranean Fleet,” he answered.
The Euphrosyne was slowly dipping her flag. Richard raised his hat. Convulsively Clarissa squeezed Rachel’s hand.
“Aren’t you glad to be English!” she said.
The warships drew past, casting a curious effect of discipline and sadness upon the waters, and it was not until they were again invisible that people spoke to each other naturally.
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