January 2016 - The Sherlockian

[Cherie]

There is another series of Sherlock stories by different authors. I have The Stuff of Nightmares and Sherlock Holmes: The Spirit Box waiting on my book shelf, as well as The House of Silk and the 2nd one in this series of two, so far by Anthony Horowitz He has several other series, but I have not read any. There are series of young Sherlock Holmes, but I have not read them, so I do not know how they are.

[Sandra, Moderator]

Just finished chapter 11. Really interested in both lines of the story.
(view spoiler)[I laughed so hard when the Scotland Yard inspector asked for a SH signature (not Doyle's) dedicated "To Eddie, from one detective to another". (hide spoiler)]

All I read of SH was around 14 years ago. It was a collection of 10 or so short stories. I remember an introduction that said all this craziness about SH and how people was so mad at Doyle when he got him killed. I remember reading even that Doyle's mom stopped talking to him, so offended she was.

[Cherie]

Sandra wrote: "Just finished chapter 11. Really interested in both lines of the story.
[spoilers removed]

All I read of SH was around 14 years ago. It was a collection of 10 or so short stories. I remember an i..."

LOL! Yes, I remember reading that his mother was angry with him after killing off SH. She was the one that finally got him to reconsider bringing him back, especially when the American publishers were willing to pay him for more stories.

[Lynda]

Cherie wrote: "I did not suggest the book, but I have recommended it to many others. I thought it was a great story and loved the double time line too. I am so happy to hear everyone enjoying it..."

I suggested the book for the Monthly Read, but I'm pretty sure you suggested the book to me, Cherie, so I guess you suggested it once removed!

I think Doyle's frustration with Sherlock's success seems like a reasonable and even common frustration that many creative people have, once they get stuck being or doing that just one thing. And if fiction Doyle or factual Doyle was grieving the loss of his father or his wife at the time, I imagine that frustration could almost turn to disdane. I do think it's hilarious that the paper wrote a eulogy, though!

I've been grieving Bowie's death really hard this week; it feels weird to be this upset over someone who I never met, but who held a great deal of influence and importance for me. Yet, it's not like I'm grieving the death of Ziggy Stardust...

In the middle of ch 8! (view spoiler)[Finally! We have a body; I feel like Sherlock impatient in between cases, while the mystery built to it's presentation. (Rest assured, I didn't resort to cocaine to get me through!). I had to laugh about the "footprints" - when they talked about the wet footprints in the lobby, I'm like, "aha!"...I'm convinced they'll matter later.

I think my only quibble, is the phrases and the language when in the Doyle story line does feel a bit forced, and at times awkward. The writing style doesn't change too dramatically, but I do feel the author strains himself trying to sound old-fashioned. (hide spoiler)]

[Joan]

I am following up with Arthur & George An historical novel about Arthur Conan Doyle and a real crime that he investigated.
Only 100 pages in but the writing is great - the author's style just makes me take a deep breath, slow down and enjoy.

From the amazon synopsis:
"A real tour de force from masterful author Julian Barnes is Arthur & George, which was short-listed for the 2005 Man Booker Prize. Late-Victorian Britain is brought to vivid life in the true story of the intersection of two lives: one an internationally famous author, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, and the other, an obscure country lawyer, George Edalji." Conan Doyle set out in Holmesian fashion to solve a case for George and "this lifted Arthur from the slough of despond into which he has sunk after his wife, Touie, died."
I never read anything by this author before.

[Cherie]

I have A & G on my TBR list Joan. A few of our YLTO members have read and rated it. I am glad to hear you are liking it too.

[Cherie]

Lynda, I understand your grief over Bowie. Not my music genre, but I have certainly always known who he was.

I sense of loss is something all of us feel for music, screen, stage, and TV icons, no matter who, when they leave us.

Since we are on a SH thread, I will tell you about stumbling onto Granada TV's series of Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett. I caught a couple of episodes on Masterpiece Theater and waited every weekend for a long time to see if any more would be shown. Nada. Then, I started looking into the series and found them on You Tube. I watched them all and wanted more! I know you will understand now, how devastated I was when I found out that Jeremy had died in 1995. I never knew who he was before I saw him as Holmes, but he brought Holmes to life for me.

[Almeta]

Almeta wrote: ".... was a sucker for the Basil Rathebone and Peter Cushing movies..."

Cherie wrote: "Since we are on a SH thread, I will tell you about stumbling onto Granada TV's series of Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett. I..."

Oh yeah, I remember that one too. He had a scoffing laugh.

[Lynda]

Thanks, Cherie. Art brings a lot to people's lives, I think without sometimes even realizing it until it's gone. Here's to all the artists out there!

I found myself falling more into the story last night, as both of the timeline mysteries are building. Unfortunately, didn't read too much, because my need for sleep always exhausts my desire to keep turning the page.

[Cherie]

LOL about the desire to read vs need for sleep. I just woke up after dozing off in my chair reading Jurassic Park. Maybe I can continue in Zoo City since I've already had a nap.

[Lynda]

That's my philosophy, I'll fall asleep for 30 minutes, which gives me permission to read some more before I turn out the light.

I'm not progressing very far with this book. That's kind of been the story lately with my reading. I'm just not moving very fast. The other side of it is the other book I'm reading is one I have a hard time putting down.

I'm through chapter 15. (view spoiler)[I'm glad Harold is suspicious of Sarah, because what freelance journalist spends months with a story that would only be an amusing aside in anything it got published in? I don't think the world-at-large, would care too much about a fandom associated with Sherlock Holmes. Also, Sebastian seems a bit sketch, too. Why wouldn't this guy just hire a PI if he didn't trust the police to solve the murder? (hide spoiler)]

[Susan]

I finally wrapped up the book yesterday while I had some uninterrupted time to read. I thought both plot lines were interesting though I was a bit more intrigued by the Doyle thread than the modern mystery.

I read lots of Sherlock Holmes when I was younger but confess to not knowing too much about the author and I didn't realize ACD had killed Holmes off and then brought him back. It was interesting to see how he (ACD) felt about being so strongly identified with his character and how that character really did take on a life of his own. I was also fascinated with the glimpse into Doyle's relationship with Bram Stoker.

[Cherie]

Susan, ACD's relationship with Bram Stoker was very intriguing to me too. I thought it was an interesting bit for the author to throw in.

[Sandra, Moderator]

I've been so busy... I got stuck around 47%. I hope to resume soon though. I was really enjoying this one....

[Cherie]

Sandra wrote: "I've been so busy... I got stuck around 47%. I hope to resume soon though. I was really enjoying this one...."

LOL! I think that is about where I am in all 6 books that I have started. I tried to read last night but fell asleep in a very boaring part in The English Patient.

[Janice, Moderator]

I downloaded the book from the library last night and started reading it, but I didn't get very far in. I was too tired.

One comment, when Conan Doyle was complaining that people thought Sherlock was a real person, I thought that not much has changed. I think some people still think he was an actual historical figure.

[Sandra, Moderator]

Wasn't he?

[Almeta]

Sandra wrote: "Wasn't he?"

;0)

[Lynda]

It's kind of a Pluto/Socrates dilemma, innit?

[Lynda]

So, I finally finished tonight - I was determined to do so, even postponing my watch of the X-Files until tomorrow (something about skipping the commercials might have also gone into that decision). It seemed to take me a long time to get through this one - for whatever reason, despite liking the story, I kept falling asleep whenever I started reading it. I gave it 3 stars.

(view spoiler)[Overall I liked the conceit of the two story lines and how they interacted. Of the two storylines, I'd say that I found myself engrossed in the Conan Doyle tale more than Harold's adventures. I think in part, because I never got a firm foothold on Harold. I know he was supposed to be highly intelligent and obsessive, but he read as more naive and kind of silly to me. I did like that, in the end, the initial mysteries were not the final mystery, and I feel like the two storylines converged elegantly.

However, I really wish the writing was just simply better. There were some exceptionally awkward sentences through-out, more so when he tried to sound "old-timey". Also, he provided some ridiculous descriptions, such as how Harold and Sarah untied an archive box, and how they went about getting their laundry done. These are things as a functional human I understand, I don't need my handheld. (Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine...let me use my own mind and imagination, thank you).

Moore tried to make a stronger statement with the symbolism of nostalgia giving away to modernity, and then our 21st century escapism back to a time long gone. I liked the imagery of the19th century giving way to the 20th, as electricity clears away the gas fog of London. However, I'm not quite sure where, in the end, he was aiming? (hide spoiler)]

[Lynda]

@ Joan (view spoiler)[I like your idea of the initiation twist. I think that would have been better; I'm not really sure I understood why Harold suddenly didn't care about his life anymore, just because some girl he barely knew lied to him about who she was. (hide spoiler)]

@Alemta (view spoiler)[The conversation between Bram and Arthur about Wilde, and their subsequent legacies was my favorite part of the whole book. I think it's interesting that in the end Sherlock and Dracula outlived their authors in the zeitgeist, however, Wilde ended up eclipsing his fiction. Dorian Grey is a great story, but Wilde's witticisms are certainly what people first think of. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Lynda wrote: " for whatever reason, despite liking the story, I kept falling asleep whenever I started reading it. I gave it 3 stars..."

I'm having that problem myself. I crawled into bed last night and kept dozing off while reading. I gave up and turned off the lights. Something woke me about a half hour later and then I was wide awake, so read on.

When I was reading the section about the woman who accosted him because he'd killed off Holmes, I couldn't help stop and muse a bit on an author's responsibility to his reading audience. This question comes up often when authors delay the next book in a series (GRRM anyone). How frustrating it must have been when people wanted him to provide Sherlock Holmes's autograph instead of his own.

I'm at the part where both Doyle and Harry have asked the question, "What would Sherlock Holmes do?" and set off to solve their mysteries. (view spoiler)[ I'm surprised Harry didn't get arrested for obstruction of justice when he contaminated the crime scene. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

regarding your spoiler, Janice. I wondered that too. I guess it is us just letting what we know of "reality" cloud our escape into fantasy. He didn't get caught doing it, is what I have to say to myself - although he should have.

I finally finished watching all of the Person of Interest TV shows Season 1-4 and there were so many episodes where they tamper with evidence and worse - and they don't get caught. I have to keep telling myself that it is not reality, but doesn't it make you wonder?????

[Cherie]

Lynda wrote: "So, I finally finished tonight - I was determined to do so, even postponing my watch of the X-Files until tomorrow (something about skipping the commercials might have also gone into that decision)..."

I agree, Lynda. I liked the past time line much better. I always thought Harold was a flake. I "wanted" to like him though.

I agree with Moore's writing style too. He could have done a much better job and I am glad to hear that you did not have to resort to using cocaine in your frustration. (view spoiler)[I was listening to Dust and Shadows last night and Watson was musing about how anxious that he has not heard from Holmes and he was stressed out about the waiting. He wondered if it was like how Holmes felt and why he resorted to the 7% solution. (hide spoiler)]

At the end, for me, it was about the story, not how well he did or didn't write it. I forgave him.

re your response to Almeta's spoiler. I loved this part too, and did a lot of research about Bram and Wilde. I really did not know anything about them at the time.

[Joan]

I just finished Arthur and George or maybe George and Arthur? Anyway it covers the same period in Conan Doyle's life and a crime he actually investigated, but is a fictional account. It gives quite a bit of background on Doyle's family and life. I liked it and it paired well with The Sherlockian.

[Lynda]

Cherie wrote: "At the end, for me, it was about the story, not how well he did or didn't write it. I forgave him."

I understand that. I did like the mystery and the conceit of the two storylines. I like how they both resolved, so in the end, I did like the book.

I put George and Arthur on my TBR, Joan, but don't know when I'll get to it.

Oh, also, I was going to point out, as I'm only halfway through The Return of Sherlock Holmes - there were plenty of spoilers, thank you very much, Mr. Moore. ;-)

[Janice, Moderator]

I managed half hour in bed before I fell asleep with book in my hand last night.

I giggled at the relationship between Bram and Arthur in Chapter 13. I think that's the chapter I've enjoyed the most so far.

I had to stop and consider the bit about whether or not ACD's last name was Conan Doyle or simply Doyle. Graham Moore can't seem to make up his mind. So I googled it and found that Conan was a middle name and that Doyle was officially his last name. However, his second wife went by Conan Doyle.

[Sandra, Moderator]

Interesting, I was sure "Conan Doyle" was his last name.

Arthur and Bram's friendship is really enjoyable to read. I'm glad the author decided to portray it in the story.
I'm still in chapter 38. Although the book is not perfect, of course, I think the author is doing a great job following 2 mysteries, that a some point will converge, and developing a historical fiction setting too, specially taking into account this is his first novel, and he was pretty young at the moment he wrote it.

[Janice, Moderator]

Sandra wrote: "Arthur and Bram's friendship is really enjoyable to read. I'm glad the author decided to portray it in the story...."

I giggled all through that chapter. It's interesting too that Bram thought his book would amount to nothing and that he'd be lost in obscurity, and that Arthur thought his "penny dreadfuls" were unmemorable too.

[Sandra, Moderator]

I'd love to Mr. Stoker know that Dracula was a 5 stars for me...

[[deleted user]]

Janice wrote: "I downloaded the book from the library last night and started reading it, but I didn't get very far in. I was too tired.

One comment, when Conan Doyle was complaining that people thought Sherlock ..."

There is an episode of Murdoch Mystery's, great show, that has a man thinking he is the real Sherlock Holmes. He dresses, talks and acts like the character. He in the end helps to solve the case. It has been a while since I have seen the episode, but I believe the detectives bring in Doyle to help with this man, and you of course find out the reason why he believes he is Sherlock.

[Joan]

Did Harold or any of the characters remind you of someone you know?
This may sound like a really bad thing to say but Harold really reminded me of one of my co-workers (I actually do like him). As I read I kept seeing him in my mind's eye.

[Joan]

Lynda wrote: "@ Joan [spoilers removed]

@Alemta [spoilers removed]"

Lynda - yes the change was a bit abrupt wasn't it.

[Cherie]

Lynda wrote: "Cherie wrote: "At the end, for me, it was about the story, not how well he did or didn't write it. I forgave him."

I understand that. I did like the mystery and the conceit of the two storylines. ..."

Oh, you had me laughing there, Lynda. Yes, I guess Mr. Moore would be considered as giving many things away in The Sherlockian, if you had not read The Return yet. It is hard for me to stop and think about folks just getting started with SH when it feels like I have been reading about him and watching him all of my life.

In the Granada TV series, there were two different actors playing Watson between The Final Solution and The Return. The sites that they filmed at were different too. It was a little strange.

[Lynda]

I guess I can't criticism him too hard for his spoilers since the books were written over 100 years ago! LOL.

[Janice, Moderator]

It's taking me longer to get through this book than I expected. It doesn't help that I keep falling asleep.

I'm getting a bit frustrated with the jumping back and forth between time periods. I'm rather enjoying ACD's story more than Harold's. I realized I was calling him Harry earlier in the thread.

Harold/Harry is kind of dorky. I like Sara's comment that all the Sherlockians must have a bit of OCD. (view spoiler)[He was even going to wear the deerstalker hat to talk to Alex's sister! (hide spoiler)]Weirdo!

This book is making me think more about ACD and what he was like as a man. I'm disappointed to learn that he was anti-sufferage, for one. When he resurrected Holmes, (view spoiler)[ people wondered what had happened to Holmes during his excile to change his attitude towards the police and not wanting to collaborate with them. Sara asked, "What happened to Arthur Conan Doyle?"

The relationship between him and Bram Stoker continues to amuse. (hide spoiler)]

[Lynda]

Janice wrote: "his book is making me think more about ACD and what he was like as a man. I'm disappointed to learn that he was anti-sufferage, for one..."

It's not too surprising to me, when you consider how one dimensional and inconsequential the women in his stories typically are. He always struck me, through his writing, as a trifle naive and sheltered. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his writing, but that was just the impression I had always had of him.

[Janice, Moderator]

I have to confess that I haven't read any of his books. *ducks* I guess in all fairness, he wasn't alone in his opinions and was a product of his time.

[Lynda]

There's some weird race stuff in his books too.

That's always been my justification of him, but I think I'm glad he didn't win his elected seat!

[Joan]

just laughed my way through Wilde's

"the truth is rarely pure and never simple"

[Sandra, Moderator]

Another Wilde's quote I love (paraphrased) "Everything in moderation, including moderation".

[Lynda]

"I can resist everything except temptation."

[Sandra, Moderator]

That's a good one!

[Lynda]

Gotta love Oscar Wilde!

[Janice, Moderator]

My interest in the story has shifted and I'm quite enjoying it. I could almost call it slapstick humour in places - Holmes and Stokes (view spoiler)[ dressing up as women to crash the suffragette meeting had me giggling. Pretty much anything to do with Arthur and Bram together is funny! What a pair they are being painted out to be. (hide spoiler)] The modern day setting also has it's funny moments especially the bit about Ron (view spoiler)[ in the alleyway, contemplating whether he himself could be the killer. ROFL (hide spoiler)]

Harold and Sara - (view spoiler)[ I didn't even think of Harold being a sexual kind of person. Then to learn of him having sex 4-1/2 times in one night.... ewww. But, seriously - 4-1/2 times? Cracked me up, so it did. I'm still a little on the fence about Sara's motives and now that she's walked out on him, what is going to happen? And who is following them? (hide spoiler)]

I was disappointed in Arthur when Janet (view spoiler)[ came to seek his help. He was so dismissive, even rude! I hope nothing happens to her. That she isn't the killer's next victim. He seemed to take a trip down the dark side after finding Emily and his little stint in Newgate Prison. (hide spoiler)]

[Almeta]

Janice wrote: "Harold and Sara ..."

(view spoiler)[ Oh yeah, I forgot about that!:0) I giggled at "4 1/2 times" as well. Made me wonder what qualifies as a half! (hide spoiler)]

[Sandra, Moderator]

I finished yesterday and rated it 4 stars. In the overall it was a good book. I'm adding a lot of books from the Author's Note section...

[Janice, Moderator]

Almeta wrote: "Janice wrote: "Harold and Sara ..."

[spoilers removed]"

Well.... (view spoiler)[ Someone must have fallen asleep. (hide spoiler)]

[jaxnsmom]

I read the book back in 2012 and I know I enjoyed it - I gave it 4 stars - but I can't remember enough of it to join in the discussion. Theses posts have given me ideas of what I liked, but not clear enough :(

I remember catching a few episode of Arthur and George on my PBS station. I thought they were pretty good.

Cherie - remember all the SH related episodes on Star Trek Next Generation? They were a lot of fun.

[Lynda]

jaxnsmom wrote: "Cherie - remember all the SH related episodes on Star Trek Next Generation? They were a lot of fun. "

It's funny you bring this up, because this is what my primary Sherlock Holmes education came from until the BBC series with Cumberbatch and Freeman, then this last year finally reading it for the first time. Reading the Sherlockian though, my mind tumbled back to the TNG interpretation!