Miévillians discussion
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King Rat: Part Two - The New City: Chapters Five to Eight
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Yes, it does! Though decommissioned.Help, there is supposed to be a photo between these two lines.
Many times when you try to post what looks like a link to an image, you're posting a link to a page with the image.
Ok, so how did you do it?
My first happy thought when I reached this section was - yesssss!!!! Natasha! This name, clearly the best in the world (I may be juuuuust a little biased here) is sadly underrepresented in literature ever since Leo Tolstoy used it in his doorstopper 'War and Peace' (well, it got brief fame on 'Rocky and Bullwinkle', but that is not literature, so....)The stopping point for a while was the Drum' and Bass. I had to do some in-depth Wikipedia and YouTube research. I was 14 in 1998, and this genre has passed me by without making an impression. I am still not impressed, but I assume China Mieville has always been a much cooler person than I can ever aspire to be.
I really have to commend him. Did I mention that I can't stand Drum & Bass? (Actually, I may not even have encountered it by 1998: I think I came across it this century). Yet, Miéville totally makes me feel something of what lovers of Drum & Bass, and Jungle, get from the (I use the term loosely) music. I even intellectually understood the difference between the genres (though if you played me some, I'd never figure it out).
Admittedly, I skipped the research on the music genre. I'm not a music snob by any means but I got caught up in CM's description of Natasha's "zombie sound" music-making more, which I think you're referring to Derek when you say he made you feel it:"She scrolled through the selection and plucked a favourite bassline from her digital killing jar." Or, "Her eyes were wide as she scanned her kills, her pickled sounds..."
He's painting her like some witch, brewing something magical, and I'm reminded of Macbeth. And I get the feeling she's going to be playing a substantial part in the rest of the story. (I'm only at Part 3)
And then, "the alien landscape of classical music, an intimidating world of great beauty but vicious social exclusivity, to which she had never known the passwords."
I wonder if that's a bit autobiographical there? Or maybe CM's just how everyone feels.
Love the fact that Crowley starts to come around. Yes, at first I thought his belief in Saul's guilt was an act, like "good cop bad cop," but then I believed that he believed, and now, well it's nice to see him doubt. In a way, and in particular because of the crime scene description in Chapter 7, all hard-boiled-ish, I think he's becoming like detective Borlu, from TC&TC. His "grunted assent" and that he could misjudge people "but not like that." I'm hoping he becomes at least an intermediary hero.
Oh, and I think 'Rocky and Bullwinkle' is literaturenough ... I can make up words too. :)
Another favorite part here is in Chapter 8 just before he realizes he's shedding his humanity like snakeskin ..."Purity is a negative state and contrary to nature, Saul had once read. That made sense to him now. He could see the world clearly in all its natural and supernatural impurity, for the first time in his life."
Sounds like Mieville's making a case for "solopsism" amid the "palimpsest of noise" (Yes! It's in this book too!) in the sewers. That life's a sewer.
I tried to reconcile that with his father's disappointment and the book of Lenin he gave Saul that "always made sense to me."
I'm off to net for research because I didn't figure at first the book would be that important. Oops. Anybody got any ideas? How Lenin figures in? Again I am indebted to the more politically astute among us...
Damn, forgot I was suppose to be looking for palimpsest.I don't think Lenin really does figure in (though there's a little socialism coming at the end, iirc). It's not so much what's in the book, as just the fact that it's his father's gift, and he knows his father meant it with love, but he doesn't really understand the point. At least before his father's death.
It works wonderfully to have this all explained through Fabian's thoughts, rather than Saul's.
Good point. I rather liked Fabian's ride across London. His thoughts started me thinking about the book again ... I also enjoyed the tour of London. Closest I've ever been is by watching Sherlock. :)
Born in South London, probably like most Londoners, I've never actually been "across" London (despite the fact that I've travelled a great deal further than most Brits of my age).
Allen wrote: "I'm off to net for research because I didn't figure at first the book would be that important. Oops. Anybody got any ideas? How Lenin figures in? Again I am indebted to the more politically astute among us..."Like Derek mentioned, there is a little revisiting of socialism in the end, and it's quite good given the context.
I also love the descriptions of London - very vivid and very memorable.
I was browsing through other people's reviews on the weekend, and came across one who complained that London wasn't a character in this novel, as Place is in most of his books. And I had to wonder if we were reading the same book….
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I was browsing through other people's reviews on the weekend, and came across one who complained that London wasn't a character in this novel, as Place is in most of his books. And I had to wonder ..."That's odd. London in this book, like in the other Mieville stories, is more than just a setting; it's really a character. Yes, it feels a bit different from other CM books because it's a real location and not one of his fascinating made-up cities, but it's an integral part of this book.
Allen wrote: "Another favorite part here is in Chapter 8 just before he realizes he's shedding his humanity like snakeskin ...It's funny, it is in this chapter that I am getting really fed-up with Saul.
"'What are we doing here? What do we do now?' Saul was suddenly weary of following like a disciple, unable to intervene or shape events."
It reminds me so much of Kraken . There Billy is being dragged along for the ride, and bitches and complains that he doesn't understand what's going on. I realize characters have to start low in order to grow but I just get tired of waiting for the whining to be over.
But that's the point: Saul isn't whinging about being dragged along as Billy did (I really wasn't happy with Kraken). He's only known King Rat for a few hours; he's been hauled over roof-tops and through sewers; he's been made to eat rotten food. If anybody has a right to retreat into catatonia, it's Saul, and yet here he makes a stand. The next sentence is “I want to know what you want.” with the implied message “if it isn't what I want, I'm leaving.”
Ruth, I see what you mean, but I wasn't getting fed up with him. Maybe rolling my eyes. It was when he started seeing "for the first time in his life" all the impurity in the world that I thought he was at least becoming more accepting, or perhaps trying to take a stand (remains to be seen for me though). In a way, he's finding direction as opposed to the seemingly directionless life he's led, which his father disliked. He's on a quest now.Made me think of Kraken too. But I remember Billy as a stronger, more together and "with it" kind of guy, even if he is dragged along ... May have to reread some. Saul seems more like a stereotypical slacker/hacker dude.
Oops, i entirely missed this section, thinking i had to read up to Chapter 14 for my next comment... :PDerek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Samplers have power buttons, now? I'm afraid I was thinking of a more traditionally feminine hobby."
..being obviously not a traditional person myself, i am now very curious as to what kind of sampler you might be referring to there, Derek?
..anyway, re Jungle, i had to google it and educate myself a bit on it, and , er.. yeah. I can see why they call it "Jungle". :P
Allen wrote: "And then, "the alien landscape of classical music, an intimidating world of great beauty but vicious social exclusivity, to which she had never known the passwords."I wonder if that's a bit autobiographical there? Or maybe CM's just how everyone feels."
...er... having grown up with my mother playing it all the time and my father liking opera (which I personally find too artificial) and doing piano lessons from age 6 and having classical music as a subject at school, a view like that seems a bit alien to me personally.
I mean.. I myself like contemporary music as in general pop stuff and I even like rap and boom and techno and metal and alternative and so on, but I always simply thought that people who didn't like classical music simply did so as a matter of personal taste? <_<
(I personally do like most of it, but i have no idea how much my tastes are due to exposure--I mean, if it was purely an exposure thing, i would have loooved opera. Although I must admit to a particular liking for Verdi. :P )
Allen wrote: ""Purity is a negative state and contrary to nature, Saul had once read. That made sense to him now. He could see the world clearly in all its natural and supernatural impurity, for the first time in his life."Nice catch! That bit went clean over my head when i read it initially... thanks for pointing it out!
Traveller wrote: "..being obviously not a traditional person myself, i am now very curious as to what kind of sampler you might be referring to there, Derek?"Embroidery or quilting: it's a demonstration piece.
I've never found the world of classical music to involve "vicious social exclusivity" (though it's been almost forever since I've paid any attention to it: played some in high school, stopped, and 40 years later I joined a choir and we do one Mozart piece), though I find that's exactly true of Natasha's milieu. Even Natasha thinks so: she doesn't want to actually let Pete perform, because listeners will think less of her.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I've never found the world of classical music to involve "vicious social exclusivity" (though it's been almost forever since I've paid any attention to it: played some in high school, stopped, and ..."Yes,in my world only the cost of an instrument precluded you from doing it, but, you could have done it with a cheap plastic recorder even, if you wanted to. But i mean modern instruments and equipment also costs money. I bet you can get a cheap piano or other classical instrument for less than a good electrical guitar and drums and bass-set and all the equipment that goes with it, especially if your going to be using synths and so on.
..and our school offered classical music kind of as a matter of course, where they didn't teach modern music methods in any in-depth way.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "..being obviously not a traditional person myself, i am now very curious as to what kind of sampler you might be referring to there, Derek?"
Embroidery or quilting: it's a demonstration piece. "
Ohhhh! Now I understand...Hmm. Sounds like something out of Anne of Green Gables.
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "though I find that's exactly true of Natasha's milieu. Even Natasha thinks so: she doesn't want to actually let Pete perform, because listeners will think less of her..."
Excellent catch on that one! Yes,she disapproves of Pete's clothing and demeanour, thinking he would look "out".
...so the character's remarks are pretty ironic, ha ha.
Miévillians
Books mentioned in this topic
Kraken (other topics)Un Lun Dun (other topics)
Now, I have to say, I can't stand Drum and Bass or any of its bastard offspring. It's primitive and unrefined: dismissing melody feels like a deliberate rejection of the best of humanity. But the way Miéville describes Natasha's work does make me understand the artistry of it. Still, I was briefly perplexed when I read "She reached out and pressed the power button on her sampler." Samplers have power buttons, now? I'm afraid I was thinking of a more traditionally feminine hobby.
I think I'm on pretty safe ground despising CM's Jungle, given Natasha's own thoughts: "Discordant indie bands had done it, she knew. My Bloody Valentine had used flutes." Discordant! What is "cordant" about Jungle?
Another bit of animation of the inanimate, as we briefly discussed in the last section: “Fabian treated his bike carelessly… He was rough with it. He yanked himself onto it now with unthinking brutality…” The bike is an adversary, rather than a mode of transport. Then, “Food wrappers and lost television supplements tugged at ankles.” This is very much like Un Lun Dun.
I love the descriptions CM gives of Saul's relationship with his father. “Fabian knew Saul hated his father's disappointment.” We know they have a troubled relationship, but everything we read says that Saul loves his father and is disappointed that he can't be what his father wants him to be. I think one must assume that that is in part because he's a rat.
“On Fabian's right, the four chimneys of Battersea Power Station loomed into view. Its roof was long gone…”
These chimneys feature in practically every 20th century story I've read that's set in London. Does anybody know if the station still exists?
Crowley, the police inspector, begins to show some shards of humanity. He still thinks Saul is his killer, but he is at least thinking about it, which is more than was apparent the night before. “What I interviewed last night was a scared, confused, fucked-up little man.” Well, it's only the smallest glimmer of humanity, as the only reason he's "fucked up" is because of the treatment he's received by the police.