General Writing Discussion

[Ashley Marie]

Awesome, thanks guys :) I'll try to get this polished up ASAP.

[Elora]

Yay! After pushing myself really hard on edits over the last couple of weeks (including all day edits and some very late nights), I'm so excited to say that I've finished the first major edit of my WIP! I'm sending it on its way to my first beta readers, then will open it up here if any of you are interested!

Shadows of the Broken a pseudo-dystopian, mostly adventure tale of a rebel named Ben who is trying to avenge the death of his sister and Everly who has had every privilege in life handed to her, but comes home to find her family gone.

Also, I had a question.....how do you protect your work when sending it to beta readers? Please, please, please don't think that I would ever think that you guys would do this, but we've all read stories of people stealing work. In the past, my beta readers have always been close friends, so there was no chance of an issue. But now I'm going to try to open it up to more people (including outside of this group). Have you guys found something that works?

[Ashley Marie]

I've been wondering the same thing Elora -- especially since I know a lot of people post their WIPs online. I actually started a side blog on my tumblr to post pieces of mine as I finish it, but I stick to snippets just on the chance someone would steal it. :-/

[Brigid ✩]

I mean, as scary as it sounds, I don't think there's really much you can do about that. :P For the most part I just trust that people aren't stealing my work––but like you, Elora, I usually only send my writing to people I know, although I do sometimes post snippets online. Yes, there's a risk of someone plagiarizing your work––but also, there are instances of people plagiarizing published books and selling them on Amazon so I feel like it's just a risk you have to take. If your work is out there in any form, there is a chance someone will steal it, although it probably won't happen.

[Elora]

I totally see your point, Brigid. I remember reading that article and thinking how terrible it was--and how bold. I guess I'm just looking for a way to "prove" that it was mine if I ever had to.....
I did some research and would love to hear your guys' thoughts. What about copyrighting the original work before sending it out and then doing a derivative copyright when the changes were made?

[Brigid ✩]

That's a good question, and I've often thought about that too. I suppose if I'd emailed someone a book and they'd plagiarized it, I would at least have the email to prove I'd sent it to them before they stole it. So, I guess my advice would be to not delete those email chains? :P Also I have all the drafts and notes from my books, which I assume a plagiarist wouldn't have. I guess those could be faked, but at least having them is better than nothing.

As for copyrighting unpublished work, I think it's an unnecessary expense. Legally, your work is already yours whether it's officially copyrighted or not, and getting an official copyright doesn't necessarily protect your work; plus a lot of services that claim to copyright your writing are scams. This is a pretty good explanation of why you don't need to do it.

[Ashley Marie]

I was pretty sure that if you posted your stuff on a site like Wordpress, Fictionpress etc it would automatically show a (copyright 2016 ) byline, but as I haven't posted on either in ages, I can't be certain anymore.

[Elora]

After promising myself 10 days off from writing, I'm on day 3 and loose-outlining my next work. Oh well :/

[Ashley Marie]

bahahaha. it's an addiction!

[Tommy]

I've been on an unplanned, unwanted writing break from several months, but looks like I'm back at it next month :)

[Brigid ✩]

Haha me too, Tommy. I don't really have an excuse, I've just been really lazy and unmotivated. I'm thinking about doing Camp NaNo again next month, though.

[Ashley Marie]

I'm doing Camp! Looking forward to kicking this revision in the pants.

[Brigid ✩]

Yay Ashley!

I'm still undecided about what I want to work on, if I end up doing it. But I think I'll be continuing to work on the book I started for my senior project in college. It's been forever since I touched it, and recently I've been doing a bit more research for it.

[Tommy]

To give an idea of how little I've been able to write, yesterday and today have easily been my two most productive writing days of the year so far. Yesterday I did just over 500 words and today so far I'm at about 850 which I'm going to try to get to about 1000. Starting early next month though I'll be out of this horrid area and up in Oregon in just a much better situation. I have great feelings for the second half of the year :)

[Ashley Marie]

So camp nano was an epic fail BUT meeting three authors at our mini-con at the library helped LOADS. I've spent the last few nights revising my mermaid story and feeling proud of myself for finally getting back into the groove. I'm thinking about taking this year off from NaNoWriMo so I can get this all ironed out and then work on my #weirdfamily once the mermaids are polished up.

Edit: Maybe I won't skip NaNo this year, actually. If I can get this first draft and round of revisions finished for the mermaid story in the next two months, I should have time to work out a direction for #weirdfamily before November gets here.

[Brigid ✩]

That's awesome, Ashley!! What authors did you meet? And I'm glad to hear you're back in the groove again. :D

I .... still haven't really written anything since like, April. I did some research/planning during June, but I totally fell off track during July. I was hoping to do Camp NaNo but I was super busy, and when I wasn't working I just felt totally drained and couldn't get anything done. And for some reason I'm just not feeling inspired by any of my WIPs at all .... the thought of writing just feels so exhausting. I don't really know what's up with me, I've just totally lost all motivation to write lately. :-/ Plus I have a project I need to edit that I have not touched in months and months. GAHH. I've been thinking I might try to get back into it soon, though. I don't know.

[Ashley Marie]

I got to meet Lisa Maxwell, Mindy McGinnis and Cinda Williams Chima :D

The last few days I've found myself debating about #weirdfamily and asking myself if I really want to do another historical fantasy after the mermaids... But I feel like if I make it more current/contemporary I lose something. So I'll probably stick it out (who am I kidding, I'm a history nut) but right now the thought of research exhausts me.

[Brigid ✩]

Wow, nice!!

Gahh I know how that feels. Two of my WIPs are historical fiction and that's part of why it's so draining. :P But I love both of them conceptually so I don't want to give up on them ... it's just that the research is SO MUCH.

[Ashley Marie]

Right -- and then part of me is always terrified of not covering enough of the research in the actual book, and making up too much. Like, where do I draw the line between historical accuracy and the fantasy that comes out of my imagination?

[Brigid ✩]

Exactly, omg! Like ... it's so difficult to incorporate all the research you've done without it feeling really forced and textbook-y, but I also want there to be a lot of detail so it feels realistic/believable. And yeah, at some point I feel like you have to let go of historical accuracy to an extent, especially when you're writing historical fantasy (which is also what I'm doing, lol). Sometimes in order for the plot to work, it can't be completely accurate. :P But I'm always nervous someone is going to call me out on it, haha.

[Ashley Marie]

And I don't want to bog down the story with extraneous junk that doesn't matter, but I'm also at only 20K+ words and most publishers/agencies don't accept MSes under 50K -- granted I haven't finished the draft yet either but idk if I can conjure up another 20K o.o I worry over wordcount soooo much.

[Brigid ✩]

I worry a lot about word count too, but I have the exact opposite problem. My first drafts are always INSANELY long. Like I just .... cannot shut up, lol. The first draft I finished earlier this year is over 150k. *screams* And yet nothing happens in it?? I don't know what's wrong with me, I try to carefully plan out my plots and yet they inevitably always turn into rambling messes.

[Ashley Marie]

I found one publisher who doesn't accept submissions under 80K so you'd be good to go there ;) bahahaha

I feel like if we could mesh between the two of us, the result would be perfect LOL

[Brigid ✩]

Well a lot of agents/publishers are unlikely to read anything longer than 80k-90k, especially from unpublished authors, so lol I need to learn to be more concise. :D Haha I know right??

[Ashley Marie]

I just read an old Daughter of Smoke & Bone promo article where Laini Taylor talked about how a free write churned out Karou and Brimstone fully-formed and that was the first time characters had ever just appeared like that to her. Same goes for JKR with Harry Potter, if I remember right. Has that ever happened to anyone?

I know for me a lot of times I wind up with either character traits I want someone to have or else I start with a name and build from there, I have yet to have characters spring fully-realized into my head like that.

[Elora]

It hasn't happened to me. If I had to guess, I'd think they are the exception and not what normally happens to writers.

[Elora]

Ashley, I used to freak out about word count too--pushing myself to fill with words that just weren't needed. Then I turned word count off and just wrote what I wanted to write. I haven't had a problem since. When I just focused on the story I wanted to tell, the words came. Also, some books are fantastic when they're on the shorter side. (Both Ness and Shusterman have shorter novels and they wouldn't be the same longer.) At least for me....it's the short ones that deliver the punch to the gut and make you think :)

[Ashley Marie]

That's a good point, Elora. I need to give myself a reality check when it comes to my favorite bestselling authors sometimes ;)

re: post 77 - yes! some of my favorite books are the Riders of the Apocalypse series by Jackie Morse Kessler and those aren't very long either.

[Brigid ✩]

Ashley *Hufflepuff Kitten* wrote: "I just read an old Daughter of Smoke & Bone promo article where Laini Taylor talked about how a free write churned out Karou and Brimstone fully-formed and that was the first time ch..."

I guess it depends on what you mean by "fully-formed"?? Like, I don't know ... I feel like I don't "fully" know or understand a character until I've started (or even finished) writing the story.

But I guess yes, at times certain characters just "click" in my mind––that is, I seem to understand who they are and their motivations faster than with most other characters.

[Ashley Marie]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "I guess it depends on what you mean by "fully-formed"?? Like, I don't know ... I feel like I don't "fully" know or understand a character until I've started (or even finished) writing the story."

Exactly, B. Like with my mermaids, I thought the MC was going to be one girl and as I'm rereading/revising I've come to realize the story is all about the girl viewed by the rest as the villain of the piece :) and this has been in progress for nearly a year, so I'm constantly learning about them as I go. Also just uncovered a factoid last night -- apparently the St Lawrence river is big enough that it has WHALES :D so excited to incorporate that.

[Ashley Marie]

I find it amusing how many contradictory pieces of advice we're given when it comes to writing. Like, there's the "Write what you know" camp and also the "Write the book you want to read" idea. I've also heard "Don't let anyone else tell you what you can and cannot write" but also "White authors shouldn't write POC for the sake of diversity".

[Tommy]

Glad to see this thread starting to kick again. I'm moved and occupied, but settling in is taking a bit longer than expected. I am back in the swing, just more bunts than swinging for the fences. But I will be back to writing at least something daily, and me and my bud are gonna meet up every Monday to slowly advance a comic series we've been talking about forever.

[Ashley Marie]

Sounds like fun, Tommy!

[Brigid ✩]

@Ashley - Wow! Yeah it's really interesting how your view of a character can totally change throughout the process of writing/revising the story. And oooh whales! I went whale-watching for the first time a couple weeks ago and it was amazing!! I didn't know whales could live in rivers? :O

Omg I know, there's so much conflicting advice out there. I've always taken issue with "Write what you know." To a certain extent I think it holds some truth, but of course when it comes to writing fantasy/sci-fi it doesn't really apply, haha. But of course, you can always draw from your own experiences––or even just your own emotions––to further enhance your story, so I agree with it in that sense.

And gahh don't get me started on "white authors shouldn't write PoC characters", and same goes for "straight/cis authors shouldn't write LGBTQIA+ characters." It really pisses me off to see white/straight/cis authors saying they refuse to write about minorities because they're afraid of """offending someone""". Like .... obviously don't portray characters in a problematic way, and don't try to speak for minorities if you aren't one, but like??? Representation really matters??

@Tommy - Congrats on the move! But yeah it's always hard to settle in. Hope things are going okay. Oooh a comic series?? Can I ask what it's about?

[Ashley Marie]

One of the strongest proponents for "White authors shouldn't write POC characters" that I've seen is a really well-known author. It's frustrating because she says it shouldn't be done for the sake of diversity but... diversity is what we NEED?!?! So... idk.

I totally understand the sentiment that if you're not a POC there's a fear you won't portray things properly, but the point remains that books desperately need more diversity and if we can get it out there, why not? This is why we have editors and beta readers and people around us to glean feedback from, so we can recognize if we've done something wrong and fix it. I'm not going to pass on a kickass idea I've got just because it's got two WOC and I'm afraid of offending someone -- obviously it's the last thing I want to do, but I'm not going to wait around for someone else to write it because of skin color limitations.

[Brigid ✩]

Lol yup, exactly. I hate this attitude of like "I'm afraid of being 'offensive' so I'm only going to write about cis/straight/white characters." As if that helps things at all??

And like, I understand part of the problem is that a majority of authors are white/cishet, and it's a matter of having more diverse authors and not just diverse characters. But also I think it's up to all authors to have good representation in their stories. As you said, if you're not sure if you're representing something correctly, that's what beta readers are for!

[Tommy]

As a straight white guy who has published very, very little, I hate to say I understand that "I don't want to offend" stance. I wrote a short, 10 page comic called Death of a Hero where the main character was a young girl going through the death of a loved one. Some of the inspiration was drawn from losing my own father, some from my love for comics, etc. *Spoiler alert* Her father dies and in the end she leans on her mother for support(I'll share it if you guys want). The comic went out in an anthology and I got a surprising amount of feedback, nearly all positive, but there was this lady on Twitter who messaged me, congratulating me on my story about how women and girls don't need male figures in their life as long as they have each other. I thanked her, then told her that wasn't the intended message, but if that's how she interpreted it and it, awesome. Then she went on to tell me I didn't know what the story was about(the one I wrote) and that if I was so oblivious I should refrain from writing, or at the very least writing females since I "clearly don't understand them".

That's not to say I won't aim for diversity(even if I fall short because I tend to not think about character races, and if not explicitly told otherwise, people tend to read characters as white) but I do get why it would be daunting to receive messages like that regularly.

Still, I'll write whatever characters I feel like writing, and I like to keep them different from one another so, you know. Boom.

[Tommy]

@Brigid
Our comic is a kind of Tolkien, Warcraft-ish fantasy, with elves, orcs and some made up races. The main character is a half elf/half orc, son of an orc prince and a high elf princess who was prophecized(not a word) a long time back. Tons of things happen and there are tons of characters/storylines already planned, but everything comes back to that boy in some way or another.

[Ashley Marie]

Tommy wrote: "As a straight white guy who has published very, very little, I hate to say I understand that "I don't want to offend" stance. I wrote a short, 10 page comic called Death of a Hero where the main ch..."

Whoa, whoa... the first part of her message was nice, and then it just... devolved. Wow. She sounds like one of those high school English teachers who overanalyze and nitpick at everything because SYMBOLISM. ugh.

[Elora]

Tommy wrote: "As a straight white guy who has published very, very little, I hate to say I understand that "I don't want to offend" stance. I wrote a short, 10 page comic called Death of a Hero where the main ch..."

Wow. What a judgment that was made on you.....and a stereotype that woman made of women--we all aren't the same. I honestly feel sorry for people who nitpick at other people's lives--do they find true joy in anything???
Anyway, I understand where you're coming from. I'm a pasty white chick and I tremble at the thought of POC characters. I will put them in my book for diversity, but I don't think I could ever write from that perspective....our country has come a long way, but I truly cannot feel the struggles that a POC goes through everyday. Just like I don't know the perspective of a man or father. I can imagine, but I don't know what it feels like.

[Ashley Marie]

Don't think about it like that, Elora. Think like... if JK Rowling could write seven books from a boy's POV, we can too! :D

[Elora]

Ashley *Hufflepuff Kitten* wrote: "Don't think about it like that, Elora. Think like... if JK Rowling could write seven books from a boy's POV, we can too! :D"

You actually made me laugh out loud. Good point, Ashley. Now I'm the one who's over-thinking things!

[Brigid ✩]

@Tommy - Wow, sorry about that lady's comments! People can get offended by the smallest things. But yeah, personally I try not to let that control my writing too much––readers are bound to get offended by one thing or another, after all. :P Also your comic sounds really cool!!

@Elora - Yeah I mean, as a white writer I don't think it's my place to speak for PoC––and while I'm not saying white authors can't address the subject of racism, I don't think it's up to them to portray a struggle they haven't experienced. I guess what I'm saying is, people are all different races and I think fiction should portray that. You don't necessarily have to explore racism, but I think it's important to diversify characters, to not rely on stereotypes, etc. etc.

I've actually never been that nervous about writing from a male perspective. Not sure why. Obviously I don't know what it's like to be a man, but I guess I've always thought about characters' personalities more than their genders. :D

[Elora]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "@Tommy - Wow, sorry about that lady's comments! People can get offended by the smallest things. But yeah, personally I try not to let that control my writing too much––readers are bound to get offe..."

I totally agree with what you said about diversity, and I think you worded it so well (not necessarily exploring race but being diverse). We need so much more of it! I was watching something (I think it was a John Oliver bit) about whitewashing in Hollywood, and it really made me sad. :( There is absolutely no good reason for it.

[Ashley Marie]

Back to research I go -- inspiration and plot hole fillers come from the most unlikely places! My mom's been on vacay in Michigan this past week, she texted earlier and said "We're at Mackinac Island today!" and I was like ASIDVHSIONKEFFFF I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT MACKINAC ISLAND because it's this island out in the middle of the lake that was extremely prominent in native culture as well as for the fur trappers, so now I'm reading up on Mackinac and the War of 1812 and thinking about pushing my timeline back by about ten years to incorporate that because it might be a bit more compelling than just a regular storm... sigh. A writer's work is never done ;)

[Brigid ✩]

@Elora - Icck yeah, whitewashing is a real problem. And it's not just in Hollywood––I've seen a lot of that in fandoms and whatnot too. Like, people will literally make fan art of PoC characters and draw them as white?? It's just .... gross. Why are people like this. :P

@Ashley - Ooooh that sounds really cool! It's awesome how inspiration can come out of the blue that way. You're making me want to get back into researching for my stories, since I've been really slacking on that lately, haha.

[Ashley Marie]

do it do it do it :)

One of my favorite things about the HP fandom is how many people have headcanons of Harry being Indian and Hermione being black (prior to the play casting).

[Brigid ✩]

Haha, I will! In general I really just need to get back into writing. I fell into a bit of a slump and I haven't touched any of my writing projects in forever. Lately I've been feeling more compelled to get back to work, though. :D

Yes!!! I love that, too. Personally I headcanon Hermione as black, so it makes me happy to see fan art that reflects that––and I was happy about the play casting (although to be honest I'm not that enthusiastic about the play itself, haha). And yeah I've seen art of Harry as many different races, which is cool.

In general I love to see fans' headcanons about characters' cultures, races, etc. (as long as they're respectful about it, that is). It's a refreshing change from the "white=default" problem that plagues most media, and it's helped me learn about a lot of different cultures as well!

[Tommy]

@All
I honestly didn't mind her combating me about what my story was about. It was a rare argument that I literally could not lose, you know? Haha. What bothers me is not her judgment on me, or even her interpretation of my story, which was actually ugly as hell. I'm all for strong females and female comradery, but to embrace the death of a girl's father as a positive thing because, "hey, now the two females can bond more!" Just gross.

What really bothered me is that that lady is a prime example of why I don't claim any labeled belief system(political, religious, social, or otherwise) regardless of how much I believe in what those things are supposed to stand for. No matter how well intentioned, such labeled belief systems seem to always lead to extremism which I can't stand. So instead, I just borrow what I like from all belief systems and kind of mold them. I.E. I believe in a lot of feminist ideals without being a feminist, or a lot of Christian values without being a Christian.

@Elora
"and a stereotype that woman made of women--we all aren't the same."

No worries on me thinking that. The woman who messaged me was not a jerk because she was a woman or because she was a feminist, she was a jerk because she was a jerk, and she just so happens to be a woman and claim feminism haha. I don't let any one person sway my opinion on a whole group of people. Look at this thread for instance. The only male here is me, yet I can get along with everyone here just fine. Why? We're all readers and writers with shared interests, goals, etc. Those types of things, that happen in people's heads and hearts, are far greater than things like gender and race, IMO.

@Bridgid
"I've actually never been that nervous about writing from a male perspective. Not sure why. Obviously I don't know what it's like to be a man, but I guess I've always thought about characters' personalities more than their genders. :D"

Very, very well said. This is why writing a female, a minority, a made up species, any age group, etc. is not at all daunting for me(while writing. Angry Twitter messages come after writing haha).

There are a lot of people who hold the opinion that white authors can't write minorities or males can't write females because they don't get what it's like. I call horse hockey. I would argue that no one knows what it's like to "be a girl" or what it's like to "be black" or "be white". One girl is not another girl, so neither one of them are "being a girl" in the same way, you know? I don't need to know how to be a girl to write a girl, all I need to know is the girl I'm writing. There are girls in life I get along with/relate with more than guys, so why shouldn't I write from their perspective?

*shrugs* at the end of the day, haters gonna hate, writers gonna write.

[Brigid ✩]

Tommy wrote: "@All
I honestly didn't mind her combating me about what my story was about. It was a rare argument that I literally could not lose, you know? Haha. What bothers me is not her judgment on me, or eve..."

"I don't need to know how to be a girl to write a girl, all I need to know is the girl I'm writing." --> Yes, this!!

And as you said, there is no "right" way to be any race/gender/etc. Every person is different, and so should be every character. Race and gender are certainly important parts of someone's identity, and I'm not saying they should be ignored, but in the end I think good characters are based more on their personalities, strengths, weaknesses, etc.