THE RIVER OF NO RETURN: General Discussion

[MK]

Mark wrote: "I'm on chapter 19, so I'd better keep my trap shut! :-)"

heh~ I will be not far behind you, soon :)

[Bee]

Thanks for the question, Lincoln! I could go on and on about time travel through feelings and why it's the method in my novel. I wanted it to be a talent innate to certain people, not a machine or a portal -- but at the same time, I didn't want certain individuals to be "drawn back" by intense personal connections, either desire or nostalgia or a sense of some perfect love in another era. I wanted it to be a broader human gift, not dependent on a single person's strength of feeling. I teach 19th century American literature, and over the years I've witnessed people falling, over and over again, into the feelings of another time period. Sometimes against their will. A lot of students REALLY don't want to get sucked in by Uncle Tom's Cabin, or Little Women -- but those two writers are so good at manipulating feeling that many students find themselves crying over Beth in spite of themselves. I think that's really VERY interesting in terms of time travel -- that a feeling from the past, a mode of emotion that we don't really experience any more in the same way, could reach out across hundreds of years and just grab you, yank you back or forwards. That's how I arrived at the idea of big movements of feelings, the feelings of an age, flowing like a river -- and our time travelers simply following the stream.

[Bee]

thanks, MK!

[Heather(Gibby)]

I am not getting through this as fast as I would like-I am mid chapter 3, but I am really enjoying it. Illness and grandbabysitting duties have intruded on my reading time-but I am really enjoying it so far, although I have not really gotten into the "meat" of it.

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Reading Question 4
For those of you who no longer live in the vicinity of your original hometown ... Would you need a culture and pronunciation class to fit seamlessly back into your old life if you had to return to the place and time you left? Do you think your life experiences since then would have noticeably changed your personality such that friends and family would think something was wrong?

[Mark]

Amy wrote: "Reading Question 4
For those of you who no longer live in the vicinity of your original hometown ...[spoilers removed] (26% / chapter 11)"

Yes, I'd need a culture and pronunciation class. I'm originally from Glasgow, Scotland. I had a Scottish accent up to the age of ten and I'd need to start using it again. I often put it on as a joke when I'm on holiday north of the Border. When I lived in Newcastle my accent was too 'posh' to fit in, so I would put on an accent there too. The Geordie accent is very hard for outsiders to understand, and I even occasionally had to translate for people who were from different parts of the region. British accents are presented in movies as being homogeneous, but they're extremely varied and apparently unrelated. Some specialists can place people within five miles, provided they've not moved.

[MK]

Amy, I'm originally from New York, and it's freaky how that accent creeps right back in, when I'm having a glass of wine with my sisters, on visits back home :D

As to seamlessly back in .... I could probably fit seamlessly back in to the time I left. There have been so many changes since tho, I'd need an assimilation class :D. Even the electric company has a new name now!

[MK]

Bee wrote: "thanks, MK!"

No no, thank YOU! I'm just over 50% now, and I love it! *grin*

[Mark]

MK wrote: "Amy, I'm originally from New York, and it's freaky how that accent creeps right back in, when I'm having a glass of wine with my sisters, on visits back home :D

As to seamlessly back in .... I cou..."
Hi MK, going back to your roots is a powerful thing. I also get my accent back to some extent.

[Mark]

Bee wrote: "Thanks for the question, Lincoln! I could go on and on about time travel through feelings and why it's the method in my novel. I wanted it to be a talent innate to certain people, not a machine o..."

Hi Bee, recent research showed that putting older people in an environment that echoed their youth has a significant anti-ageing effect. They put some senior citizens in a house decorated like it would have been in their youth and exposed them to music of that era. The result was that they all felt younger, were more mobile and had better cognitive function. So your time-travel through emotions isn't that far from reality at all!

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Answer to #4: I'm originally from Alabama, but I haven't lived in the Deep South for 19 years. I worked hard on not having a strong accent during my high school years because I planned to move away and didn't want my accent to mar my job prospects. So I copied what I heard on TV, dropped myself into the middle of the USA, and voila. One summer when I came back for a visit, a girl I was working with endlessly asked me to say her name for her: "Beth" instead of "Bay-uth". She thought my non-Southern pronunciation the height of entertainment. If I returned and lapsed into full-on Southern pronunciation, I'd be looked at strangely. But if I used my current pronunciation, I'd be looked at strangely as well. I'd have to somehow hit the middle ground of still using Southern expressions (tote, get up with, reckon, etc.) and faked TV pronunciation for nobody to wonder at my accent. I'd have to remember to use all the Southern niceties like calling everyone "Miss" and "Mister" and saying "yes ma'am" and "yes sir". It would definitely be difficult to portray myself as having the same worldview as I did previously. I do still understand the culture, but it would be hard not to want to rebel against it and tell people off. I could fit in if I had to, but I wouldn't like it.

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Lincoln wrote: "Reading Question 3 ...

The interesting thing is that she (view spoiler)[rewound as an experiment. She didn't even know that she was able to rewind before she did it. But it was really the only safe option. If she went forward, he'd still be trying to take her life. But by going backward, she could just keep her mouth shut and not anger him to the same point again. Since her time travel abilities rely on strong emotion, then it's not likely that she'd be rewinding every little mistake she made, just the large ones. What an amazing ability to have to undo the big moments that changed our lives for the worse.

Should she freeze time and flee? I don't think it would help her any to freeze time. She could just flee in the night without freezing time. But I don't know that that's the best option. Perhaps she could pretend to find the talisman and then pretend that it only works for certain people. If he sees that he's not able to use it, then maybe he'll stop looking. Or not. I bet Bee knows how to solve this problem though.

And, yes, I think Julia can keep her mouth shut about her ability because her life depends on it. (hide spoiler)]

[Lincoln, Temporal Jester]

Answer 4

I grew up in a small town in New Mexico...Graduated in a high school class of 155 students from the only high school in town. Went from there to a Mormon Mission in Jacksonville Florida...Then came back to Provo Utah where I live now to go to school at BYU. I still have relatives in New Mexico but seldom visit. I went back for a funeral and felt very out of place...Had nothing to do with accents...just the extremely different feel a very small town has compared to everywhere else I had been since...

[MK]

Mark wrote: "Hi MK, going back to your roots is a powerful thing. I also get my accent back to some extent. ..."

So true, Mark!

And, wow, interesting on your next post about elder-aging and environment effects!

[MK]

Amy wrote: "(tote, get up with, reckon, etc.) ..."

So ... translation for a transplanted NYer living in New England ;-) ?

tote - carry?
get up with - a big mystery :D
reckon - know?

[MK]

Lincoln wrote: "Answer 4

I grew up in a small town in New Mexico...Graduated in a high school class of 155 students from the only high school in town. Went from there to a Mormon Mission in Jacksonville Florida...."


Ahh, you're a city boy at heart! :D

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Bee wrote: "I teach 19th century American literature,..."

I used to teach American literature, and that was my very favorite period to teach. Being able to focus on that one period must be an absolute joy because it's so rich. I'm sure it gets into your bones. I don't generally see myself as an emotional person, but I love the richness of emotions from the literature of that time period. No wonder you chose emotions as the means by which your characters time travel.

Hmm ... If you taught 20th century American or British literature, I'd expect to see Ambrose Bierce and Agatha Christie as time travelers somewhere in the novel since both of them were missing persons.

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Lincoln wrote: "Answer 4

I grew up in a small town in New Mexico...Graduated in a high school class of 155 students from the only high school in town. ..."

Yes, I can understand. I graduated in a class of 26, and we were bussed in from throughout the county. It's a different world living in a small town (or the middle of nowhere as was my case).

[Amy, Queen of Time]

MK wrote: "And, wow, interesting on your next post about elder-aging and envir..."

Very. And that brings up the question of nature vs. nurture. Are we who we are based on environment? Are we completely different people simply as a product of our environment? How much would we change to being like our former selves if we were placed back into an old environment?

[Bee]

Wow, that's fascinating. Thank you. And interesting that many very elderly people recreate those conditions for themselves, believing they are living in their youth, etc. Time/feelings -- very strange and NOT linear!

[Bee]

Amy -- the book has dozens of tiny little citations from the books I teach. So you'll be reading along and suddenly half the sentence is by Poe or Dickinson. I did it because I could -- because my brain is just full of those little twiddles after years of teaching -- but also because I wanted the prose itself to be time-travel-ish. You're reading along and you don't know it, but suddenly the sentence is 200 years old for just a phrase or two. As for Agatha Christie, that disappearing act is so fascinating! I adore her -- and read every single one of her novels again in the two years before I started writing my novel!

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Bee wrote: "Wow, that's fascinating. Thank you. And interesting that many very elderly people recreate those conditions for themselves, believing they are living in their youth, etc. Time/feelings -- very s..."

Observing people dealing with dementia, I've often thought of it as a type of time travel induced by our brains. Now and the far past are often the only time that exist, and they often exist simultaneously. "Now" has suddenly become something completely different than how we generally define it.

You get a glimpse of this phenomenon in your dreams where your brain convinces you that the dead are still alive or that you're back in high school. And then there are the times when you open your eyes in the morning expecting to see your childhood bedroom, and you're disoriented by waking up to a different time than you expected.

[Heather(Gibby)]

I am at Chapter 10-It is one of those books where I am loving both the past and present story lines. I get so engrossed in one of the time lines, and get annoyed when it switches (especially as there is no indication that is will be happening, except a double space between paragraphs) but then I get entrenched in the new story line, and don't want to leave it either, It is like reading two different books at the same time, and I am eagerly anticipating when the two storylines will intertwine. (view spoiler)[ I assume it will be very soon as Nick is preparing to leap back to his own time period (hide spoiler)]

[Samantha]

Here are my educating time-travelers pop culture picks:
Freaks and Geeks
The Now (That's What I Call Music) CDs
and I agree with the person who said Borat for a movie. It demonstrates the modern sense of humor and the political state of mind.

Who do I think Mr. Mibbs is? (view spoiler)[I wonder if he is Eamon once he has learned to time travel, and now he is trying to protect the secret of how he learned to do it, or maybe prevent people who might have known him in his own time from figuring out his identity. (hide spoiler)]

At this point I think it is good that Julia lies in wait for the perfect move. If she acted too rashly she could ruin her reputation wholly and throw suspicion on herself. Right now she has the upper hand.

I am really loving this book so far. It is long but it doesn't feel long and I'm breezing right through it.

[MK]

I haven't got a theory on who/what Mr. Mibbs is yet! Unless (view spoiler)[he's from beyond the Pale. That's the only thing I can think of ... (hide spoiler)]

I'm at 92% (chap 41). I don't really want to finish! It's all still alive in my mind, until I finish :p.

heh. Might read some Goldfinch tonight instead ... but I have a feeling I will just finish this one.

Really well done, Bee!

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Question 5:
Given the ultimatum at the end of Chapter 25, would you choose Guild or Ofan for your allegiance?

[MK]

Hmmmm ... Well, that's an easy pick now, since I've finished :D. Given the scenario at Chapter 25 (if it's what I'm thinking), there wasn't another choice to make, at that point, not really, I don't think.

I have to say, I was missing the story last night. I was enjoying reading Goldfinch sure, but I was sorry I was done. This book had been my nighttime read since I started reading it. The setting was still full and alive in my mind.

It's fading a bit now.

[MK]

It feels like there could be a sequel sometime in the future, btw. Is that true, Bee? :D

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Speaking of Guild vs. Ofan, let's revisit this poll:https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/8...

[Amy, Queen of Time]

MK wrote: "Hmmmm ... Well, that's an easy pick now, since I've finished :D. Given the scenario at Chapter 25 (if it's what I'm thinking), there wasn't another choice to make, at that point, not really, I don'..."

I thought there certainly was a choice to make. The choice made aloud didn't necessarily have to match what he preferred in his heart.

It comes down to not only who he feels he can truly trust but whether he'd prefer to be conservative or revisionist when it comes to the preservation of the river of time.

[MK]

Amy wrote: "I thought there certainly was a choice to make. The choice made aloud didn't necessarily have to match what he preferred in his heart.

It comes down to not only who he feels he can truly trust but whether he'd prefer to be conservative or revisionist when it comes to the preservation of the river of time. "

Ahh, that's true. I suppose the rebel in me answered. (view spoiler)[Given the coercion, I think I'd make the choice he did, without thinking of the underlying issue. I mean, if someone is threatening to kill you, would you sign up with them?

Hmmmm ..... I guess ..... yes, I'd choose Ofan, even absent coercion. (hide spoiler)]

[MK]

Amy wrote: "Speaking of Guild vs. Ofan, let's revisit this poll:https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/8..."

haha! That poll is on-point!! Looks like more Guild than Ofan here. And a minority contingent of players who'd just fiddle with their own circumstances.

[Amy, Queen of Time]

I think my answer changes based on the book I'm reading at the moment.

[MK]

Amy wrote: "I think my answer changes based on the book I'm reading at the moment."

Interesting change :). So, how would you answer your question? Would you choose Guild or Ofan?

[MK]

Oh, hey, I just found out there's a novella prequel:


The Time Tutor by Bee Ridgway

http://www.amazon.com/The-Time-Tutor-...

[Amy, Queen of Time]

MK wrote: "Oh, hey, I just found out there's a novella prequel:


The Time Tutor by Bee Ridgway

http://www.amazon.com/The-Time-Tutor-......"

Nice. How did I miss that?

[MK]

It doesn't link to her author page on Amazon. Don't know why.

[Samantha]

If our hero never had a reason to question the Guild before Chapter 25, he certainly does now. (view spoiler)[There is little evidence to suggest the Ofan are much better, so I can't say that being threatened with slow, painful death would have made me switch sides, but it certainly would have made me lose my loyalty to the Guild. (hide spoiler)]

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Samantha wrote: "If our hero never had a reason to question the Guild before Chapter 25, he certainly does now. [spoilers removed]"

Well said. The (view spoiler)[bullet game would caused me to lose all sense of respect and feeling of loyalty. Fear is a poor substitute for loyalty. Of course, throughout history, it has caused many to do horrible things. But for someone with an alternative, it's not a great way to create a sense of loyalty. I'm the type of person who doesn't duck on command but has to ask why. So if you threaten me but don't give me reason and purpose, you've lost me. I love how they only decide to explain the Pale to him only after the threat. Perhaps they could have gained his respect by telling him about it without threat. Perhaps. But, like he's said, how does he know who's right and who's wrong?

Clearly, something's going wrong with the current timeline, so it seems to me that perhaps the Ofan are the ones in the right since they want to discover a way to save the world from the Despair behind the Pale. I have a sneaking suspicion that Mr. Mibbs has something to do with said despair. (hide spoiler)]

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Sometimes I really love the dialogue in this book. This is a favorite that could quickly turn into an internet meme if this were a movie:

“He can behave like a gentleman when he must.”

Jemison swallowed. “Can’t. Tallow chandler’s son.” He licked his fingers.

I found myself adapting it this morning to myself.

"She can behave like a lady when she must."

"Can't. Helicopter electrician's daughter."

It's a great excuse for whatever bad behavior you just can't help. ;)

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Question 6
Who would you cast in a movie version of this book?

~~~
I know she doesn't fit the physical description, but I keep seeing Karina Lombard as Alva (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0518312/?r...). I think it's the accent and the personality.

[Lincoln, Temporal Jester]

From Chapter 23

It feels good to be alive when there is danger. The stars and the moon, they shine. The city may stink but she is very beautiful. She smiles on us. We are her kings, her masters. In all ages she recognizes us and welcomes us as a lover.

Nick then tells Arkady he is a terrible poet...but I like it, even if Nick does not.

[Lincoln, Temporal Jester]

Some thoughts after pivotal chapter 25...(not sure if its an answer to question 5 or not)

(view spoiler)[ So you die...or at least you think you die...you wake up in a hospital 200 years in the future. You have a someone to welcome you and integrate you into modern society. Cash and floating in the pool with buds. I can see how life would be good why question, no need to work, do what you like and love. Nick decides to be a womanizing cheese farmer and lives 10 years with a nagging suspicion of the guild.

I understand his desire to get back home. I just have a nagging suspicion of this book...I am over half way and I still not sure what the guild is? Do they simply keep people happy? I think my issue is that Nick is not concerned until his real life and his guild mission conflict.

Part of it is his personality I suppose...fun loving and overly trusting.

Let's see the alternate universe played out by someone who does not trust anything. A la Captain America busts out of his mock 1945 hospital room and runs down the street of modern day Manhattan!

There has been a huge amount of character development so far and its been beautifully slow, and Nick finally goes on a spy mission finally and his target is waiting and willing? Does that make any sense? I thought there might be some intrigue and espionage.

Half way through the book your working for the wrong team? I am not giving up yet as the book is very enjoyable but wow Nick better pull off some "Marquess of Blackdown...Temper ridden action hero stuff soon"

Why is the choice Guild or Ophan? If it were me I would stop playing the games and go home to Julia!

It all flows to the ocean right? (hide spoiler)]

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Lincoln wrote: "Some thoughts after pivotal chapter 25...(not sure if its an answer to question 5 or not)

So you die...or at least you think you die...you wake up in a hospital 200 years in the future. You have..."

I think that's the point of why Nick was chosen by the Guild. He likes the good life and is content being a millionaire, so left to his own devices he's not going to question anything if enough money is thrown at him. I think this would be true of a large majority of people, but especially those used to the good life. Besides, who's going to question and take on such a rich and powerful omnipresent society? Not many.

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Question7
What do you think about the concept of (view spoiler)[all wars being caused by the Guild and all wars being about money? (hide spoiler)] (answer after Chapter 32)

Question 8
What do you think about the idea of friendship (view spoiler)[obligations being translated to money? (hide spoiler)] (answer at the end of Chapter 35)

Question 9
After finishing the book, what's your guess about the purpose of the Talisman?

Question 10
After finishing the book, who or what do you think Mr. Mibbs is?

[Amy, Queen of Time]

You wrote: "Amy -- the book has dozens of tiny little citations from the books I teach. So you'll be reading along and suddenly half the sentence is by Poe or Dickinson. I did it because I could -- because m..."

Bee: It's very obvious in your writing that you've absorbed literature into the very fiber of your being as only a literature teacher can. I can see so many phrases you've mulled and absorbed and so many ideas that have crept into your worldview very solidly over time. Lovely.

I'm wondering what coalesced to form your ideas about (view spoiler)[money, friendship, and the Guild's power as connected to them. (hide spoiler)] What a fascinating idea.

[Mark]

Amy wrote: "Question7
What do you think about the concept of [spoilers removed] (answer after Chapter 32)

(view spoiler)[I don't think all wars could ever be about 'money' per se. I think one might look at the current wars going on and they're mostly about *power*. You could argue that money and power are [pun warning!] two sides of the same coin, though [groan].

I've actually written in one of my own time-travel books about how difficult it is to 'front-run' a market using knowledge you gain in advance. The other problem is that wars aren't entirely predictable. If you do start 'front-running' wars you can affect their outcomes. (hide spoiler)]

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Interesting. By the end of the prequel, Burt Reynolds got cast in my mind as Julia's grandfather.

[Mark]

Amy wrote: "Interesting. By the end of the prequel, Burt Reynolds got cast in my mind as Julia's grandfather."

Burt Reynolds? Seriously? What about in the main novel?

[Samantha]

Question7
What do you think about the concept of (view spoiler)[all wars being caused by the Guild and all wars being about money? (hide spoiler)](answer after Chapter 32)

(view spoiler)[I think this is clever. It's the same idea as knowing the future and then gambling to make money off of your knowledge, only it uses something that often naturally rejuvenates economies. I don't think the Guild was starting the wars, but it was profitting off of them to fund itself. (hide spoiler)]

I can't really answer the last two questions because I felt that the novel was incomplete. I had so many questions at the end that I thought, 'There surely will be a sequel.' It didn't explain Mr. Mibbs or really why the Talisman was important, only that it might be important because it is unique. It also introduced a new setting, so I hope that means there will be a second book. If not, I have to say I am disappointed. I was involved up until the ending which just stopped too abruptly.