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Can Galactic Empires Exist Without FTL Drive?
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Kirsten wrote: "So true, Anna! There's evidence that romance sales went way up as soon as e-book readers came up! Proportionally more than other genres. Coincidence?"The indie romance writers tend to band together to cross-market their books, and also reach out directly to their readers to form little communities, so the confluence of e-readers and social media have been the perfect tool. I think sci-fi can catch up. We just have to recognize as the most cutting-edge genre, some of our worldbuilding has moved to venues such as television, gaming, and manga.
True, Anna, but when I heard about this, I don't think they were focusing on indies. I guess the big names like Harlequin shot up through the roof. (Hmmm... wonder how Don Pendleton did?)
Kirsten wrote: "True, Anna, but when I heard about this, I don't think they were focusing on indies. I guess the big names like Harlequin shot up through the roof. (Hmmm... wonder how Don Pendleton did?)"Most of the mid-list romance writers jumped ship the moment they realized they could earn a LOT more money going directly to their audience. The big names ... the publishing houses promote ... but the little guys earm almost nothing for their hard work so why NOT go direct? The big publishing houses actually lagged a while until it began to dawn on them the readers were following the authors and not the 'brand.' Right now there is a big divide between romance readers who read ebooks (who will buy indie) and romance readers who don't own ereaders yet who buy Harlequin and Mills & Boone. Romance readers tend to read a LOT and the books tend to be shorter, so even at $2.99 an indie author can earn a modest living once they get around their 7th book out so long as they keep churning one out every 60-90 days.
As for Don Pendleton (action/adventure writer?) he died in 1995, but it looks like his re-released Mack Bolan series is ranked under 50,000 on Amazon, which isn't too bad for a guy who hasn't graced our presence for almost 20 years :-)
Would like to see sci-fi do as well :-)
Anna wrote: Would like to see sci-fi do as well :-) Amen, sister.
Anna wrote: "Kirsten wrote: "True, Anna, but when I heard about this, I don't think they were focusing on indies. I guess the big names like Harlequin shot up through the roof. (Hmmm... wonder how Don Pendleton..."I mention Don Pendleton, because I recently discovered they were on my library's Overdrive site. I hadn't seen them since they were always at the grocery store.
First, I read the article that is on the link of the first post and I think the story concept is original and interesting.Secondly, I don't think we can throw in ideas like wormholes or gates or similar concepts because that negates the overall question of whether or not galactic empires could exist without FTL.
I think Hugh Howey does a good job of working with this idea in his book Half Way Home. This is the only non-Wool story of his that I've read and I really liked it.
In the story, Earth sends out colonies consisting of genetic material that will become people. Once a probe lands at its destination, if the world is suitable, it opens up shop and grows its crew to adulthood and then births them. The people are genetically programmed and given certain abilities (jobs) and personality types.
Take this concept to the next level and the Earth sends out these probes and whenever they land, they radio back to Earth for instructions. Whatever regime is in charge can then send programming information to the probe and the colonists that are grown are imbued with whatever the current Empire's beliefs and laws are.
So even if it takes hundreds of years for the probe to get somewhere, it will always have the latest updated genetic code for its citizens. Not to mention that in the time it takes a probe to get somewhere, the Empire will be that much more technologically advanced which will help to speed the process.
We can already 3D print human tissue to a certain extent. I just read an article the other day that scientists are talking about 3D printing colonists on other planets rather than using live crews to travel to other worlds. So the concept is already out there.
I think Karl Schroeder's LOCKSTEP had a great concept for a galactic empire without FTL travel. The book was an OK read, but nothing spectacular as far as plot or character. But the "lockstep" worlds and their 30 year hibernation cycles was an interesting way to handle vast distances.
Moving on from the romance stuff... yuck! lol.I think it would be difficult if not impossible to have an interstellar empire without at least FTL communication.
Across such vast distances, colonies would diverge rapidly. Even language would shift to the unrecognizable.
I suppose that you could have a rough union of worlds that all tried to follow the same laws and such, but Empire suggests control.
Without communication and enforcement (a military that travel fast) people just won't do what you want them to. Look at how rapidly colonies on the Earth broke away from their parent nations, and they were only separated by months. Space colonies without FTL will be separated for decades, at the least.
As far as I know, Le Guin was the first to use entangled particles to communicate in a story. That was back in the 60's with the Ansible.
Many writers have used it since, like Card in Ender's Game.
One of the best I've read recently was The Risen Empire by Scott Westerfeld.
I use dynamically entangle pair communications in my own books, also.
Jay wrote: "Take this concept to the next level and the Earth sends out these probes and whenever they land, they radio back to Earth for instructions. Whatever regime is in charge can then send programming information to the probe..."But radio signals are inherently even slower than light speed, unless you believe superluminal communication is possible via quantum entanglement, in which case you're right back to a form of wormholes again. I -do- like the idea of 'genetic printers' though, as a way to create colonists.
But then we must ask, are we still space travelers ... or gods?
[*ooh ... I could have all SORTS of fun following THAT train of thought...*]
Paul wrote: "Without communication and enforcement (a military that travel fast) people just won't do what you want them to. Look at how rapidly colonies on the Earth broke away from their parent nations, and they were only separated by months..."I have to agree with this. Or as the Nox said in SG-1, "The very young do not always do as they're told..."
Anna wrote: "...unless you believe superluminal communication is possible via quantum entanglement..."That has been proven. Now we just need to make it work over longer distances than a few hundred kilometers. Given the principles, distance shouldn't matter.
You wrote earlier that you use this to explain psi in your stories. Works great, actually. If psi phenomena is real, then it is going to be quantum physics that proves it.
Here is a real world example.
Question: is light a particle or a wave?
Physics Answer: Both, either or neither. It depends on the observer.
Why: Because quantum physics! *handwavium*
Nobody knows why light is fundamentally altered by interaction with the human mind. Sounds like psi ability to me.
Paul wrote: "You wrote earlier that you use this to explain psi in your stories..."Yeah ... but I'm just flinging pretty, shiny bu!!$#!t around my science-fiction-decorated epic fantasy series to explain my system of magic :-) I have several friends who are professional psychics and when they explained to me how the 'gift' works, quantum entanglement is the closest I can come to putting into words something I know on an intuitive level.
Thomas wrote: "Why would anyone WANT to maintain one under such circumstances?..."I tend to agree with you, Thomas. But then again, why does Vladimir Putin want to re-assert control over the Ukraine? Sometimes, you just feel more warm-and-fuzzy knowing that not only do you control YOUR neighborhood, but also the 'hood the next star system over :-)
Thomas wrote: "Gotcha. Chalk it up to 'Humans are weird and do weird things.' :)"Yeah, watch out for those people that want to start up agriculture, it's all downhill from there.
Complex societies must develop systems of control in order to convince/force a portion of their labor force to work hard enough to give some other part of their society enough time to develop art, science, religion, etc.
I wasn't debating that they would want to control star systems, only that it wouldn't be possible for long. They might hold an empire together for a few decades, but it would start to unravel fast. The more things unravel, the tighter the control, and the faster things come apart.
Lack of rapid, reliable communication is the big problem. It is a major factor in the decline of historical empires.
I love anthropology. :-)
Thomas wrote: "Something I haven't seen in the discussion about whether galactic empires are possible without FTL (or any way to "cheat" the question by using wormholes, teleportation, etc. instead): Why would a..."Well there are somewhat modern examples but travel wasn't by years but my months. Think of the British empire they had a colony in every continent. It worked for a while but the system didn't last very long. Assuming while we don't have FTL we have solved many of the issues with aging. Time can be somewhat less of a factor. Those making the trips back and forth while not at light speed but a fraction of it will have significantly extended "perceived" lives of us on the ground.
So my answer is can they try yes.
Will it last well somewhat but at some point it will break down to regional rule. maybe thats all that is needed empires deal with capitols of the entire planet. eg. planets get taxed not the people.
Emeketos wrote: "eg. planets get taxed not the people...."And we know how THAT worked out in that pesky British colony known as New England... :-)
[*brews herself a cup of coffee ... I shall have no tea*]
Anna wrote: "And we know how THAT worked out in that pesky British colony known as New England... :-)[*brews herself a cup of coffee ... I shall have no tea*]"
We need a 'like' button.
Personally, I think Empires are doomed whether you have FTL or not. Shrug.
I never said it would work well.. but even for the period it did last which as for empires goes is pretty long. Similar things could be said in the days of the Roman empire which in some ways had a larger territory than the brits did. That lasted a very long time...so yes I think it could work depending on how benevolent the empire it might even be worth while such as shipping out very high tech terraforming equipment.
But I think its more than just how fast the ships can go the biggest concern is how effecient the impulse is to be anything more than a perm one way trip.
but here is where I think it can work. The transport of goods back and forth is relatively impossible at least from the colony side until the industry is up to the point it can make the ships to send back. its the communication network that CAN work. while sending messages back and forth will take probably years the communication will be constant just with a delay of distance x2.
so.. Empire unlikely... cooperative comunity likely.
which means News, technology (knowhow), education, discoveries basicly anything that can be digital.
All 'empire' usually hinges on trade. If a distant cluster of worlds has some substance so valuable that other worlds would need it, even with a huge time-delay, then some effort will be made to formulate a relationship. But it would only work if the SOURCE worlds -also- had something necessary that the colony needed as well. Mutually beneficial trade relationships can often overcome obstacles that empire alone cannot solve.
Material trade in any form would bevery unlikely if we are talking real world physics. Hell even getting enough people to make a working colony with enough genetic diversity to survive is something that would be difficult to even conceive (Bad joke) outside of artificial wombs cold stored eggs. Memory storage. The amount of mass even that amount would be a astronomical amount of fuel mass. Which is why I say theonly type of trade possible would need to be words.. Un less something avatarish existed to warrent the trip back and the fuel/ship mass/cargo/more fuel mass needed to move the mass of the new mass plus fuel and more to cover that.
That assumes principles of rocketry based in 50's, because we haven't had much advancement since then.Nuclear pulse engines are much more efficient.
The bottom line is that it is more exciting to have people move from planet to planet. We never know what the future may bring.
But it is fun to speculate.
Speculation is what science fiction is all about :-) Fantasy is nice because you can dream of magic, but when you shut the book that's where the fantasy usually ends. Science fiction is more fun because, once the book closes, you're left wondering when some clever scientist will come up with such technology.
Nuclear pulse or fusion torches or among the myriad of other engine designs. They are still all based on the same principle, how fast can I eject my fuel out in one direction while propelling my ship in the other all while wasting as little of the energy as possible. Math is still mostly the same just a little more efficient. but this is getting off topic. Can an empire or nation exist when the distances are Decades of years apart (travel time). Can Material trade exist? Doubtful, Can Intelectual trade exist probably, Can Laws, Taxes, Borders exist all governed by a central body? Thats the real question and would be possible but near impossible to enforce. Even if a colony all came from the same region of the world all spoke the same language and even the same town. Once it sets forth on a new world the laws changes (gradually as inequality happens). I would be very suprised if it could last long (as the british empire as a good example). If the empire could keep everyone mostly happy it could last a good while. But as percieved inequity real or not happens the days on the wall move faster. It mostly depends on how much an equal partner in the relationship is the colony to the homeland.
Perhaps if they had some kind of inflexible, mechanical police force? All overseen by computers with set parameters for behavior? I'm thinking of that episode of Star Trek TOS when they went to the planet that had the 'temple' that was really a computer (I'm spacing on the computer/gods name). Only more of a police force, like Cylons or Peacekeepers or something.
Reminds me of The Humanoids and The Humanoid Touch by Jack Williamson. They had slow FTL, but the robots used rhodomagnetism for instant transfer of information. They just wanted to protect mankind... Good and scary.In regards to the original question. No. I don't think they would exist for long without FTL or FTL communications.
However, since such things are scientifically plausible, there is really no reason not to have it. It would be a stretch of the imagination not to have FTL* of some kind.
*note that by FTL I'm referring to jumpdrive/hyperspace drives and entangled quantum comminications, not actual faster than light. There are lots of reasons why actual FTL will not work.
I don't know why I find it weird that the most plausible form of FTL is the warp drive. Just could someone find me that canister of negative energy?FTL communications I don't find it absolutely nessicary at least you can have the news of the last 19-50 years on the radio. So who won the worlds cup or super bowl of post diaspora -50 calendar years ago. But to have some form of communications at all would be comforting. Scientific data sent both directions on new tech to new discoveries found on the colonies. That alone is reason enough to send out more colony ships.
Material civilizations(not empires) The biggest hurdle is going to be fuel. Less you need to carry the more you can transport could you build refueling depots along the way of transportation. Some form of hydrogen condenser that could be picked up by a buzzard ram scoop. So stopping would not be nessicary just fly though the field.
I assume you mean the Alcubierre drive, not Star Trek.White's version of the drive is a good first step, but 10x light speed isn't going to win us the galaxy, and there are some real problems with the design. That kind of distortion to spacetime could have serious effects.
Quantum teleportation is also viable and being worked on, but maybe this is a discussion for another thread.
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If fuel is the only thing you're worried about, then use a solar sail. Electronmagnetic sail have been tested and are viable. Given a reasonable size sail, a decent size ship can achieve a high percentage of light speed in less than a year. You flip over and use the sail to slow down when you reach the destination stellar system.
The electromagnetic sail also can be used to protect the ship from stellar radiation. You can also use quantum paint (real stuff) that produces a field that can block certain particles.
Ships can be light and carry only maneuvering fuel and life support.
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My point was that given how soon we may have some form of circumventing light speed both physically and in communications, an author should explain why they are NOT being used in their story.
Mod
Betsy wrote: "Has anyone read Neptune's Brood..."I have not read it, but just the fact they pair up merfolk with space opera makes me want to read it :-) I love science fiction/fantasy crossover stuff.
I haven't read it, but the reviews don't look great. Stross is hit and miss in my experience. Sometimes he writes a really good book (Atrocity Archives) most of the time he writes crap. Shrug. Just not a fan of his pop culture referencing everywhere when not appropriate.
Betsy wrote: "Has anyone read Neptune's Brood? I have not, but it apparently deals with a universe with no FTL travel and the issues that ensue."Good question! A race could colonize over thousands of years but there's no empire without FTL communication let alone travel. If you like this subject, give Vernor Vinge's "zones of thought" series a try, wherein he postulates that gravity causes everything to slow down--A.I. as well as ship travel--whereas outside the fringes of the galaxy things move faster. It's a fun idea first presented in "A Fire Upon The Deep" (hugo winner).
Jon wrote: "If you like this subject, give Vernor Vinge's "zones of thought" series a try, wherein he postulates that gravity causes everything to slow down..."I haven't read the Zones of Deep series yet, but I got to attend a lecture by Vernor Vinge at BOSKONE two years ago where he explained his theories of how meta-intelligence arises. Given the fact he's a mathemetician, if he postulates time may move differently in the inner portions of the galaxy than the outer ones, chances are there's some mathematical theory banging around someplace that backs him up. I suppose it's like time being slightly different on Mount Everest than at sea level?
Now that is a great book. I really need to read the second one (others?) But A Fire Upon the Deep was fantastic.I'm not sure, but I got the impression it did have to do with the greater density of matter deeper in the galaxy.
I need to read this again.
Thomas wrote: "Anna wrote: "I haven't read the Zones of Deep series yet, but I got to attend a lecture by Vernor Vinge at BOSKONE two years ago where he explained his theories of how meta-intelligence arises..."..."
I think his zones are more complex than just Einsteinian relativity (where gravity slows down time). Deep in the gravity well of a galaxy seems to affect space itself (e.g. quantum structure) in a manner different from relativity. It's hard to explain because Vinge doesn't explain it at all--just has characters living with it.
Look time space is looked as a never ending blobFTL Drives 100%
Time bending 0%
Gravity slowing down time 00%
Look up nuclear fussion
And you will see what im talking about
Then Play FTL on steam
My metaphysical friends say all of time and space is happening at once. I have no idea if that's true or utter B.S. ... but it makes for an intriguing premise for a story :-)
To quote Douglas Adams, "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
Space Opera Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
A Fire Upon the Deep (other topics)Neptune's Brood (other topics)
Neptune's Brood (other topics)
Neptune's Brood (other topics)
The Humanoid Touch (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jack Williamson (other topics)Scott Westerfeld (other topics)
Hugh Howey (other topics)
Charles Stross (other topics)
Hah! Yeah ... we all have things like that we look back on and say WHY WAS I A GOOD BOY/GIRL???