The Catcher in the Rye
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Amy wrote: "Just before Christmas holiday begins for the private school Pencey Prep, situated in Pennsylvania, 16-year-old Holden Caulfield is expelled – just as he had been from previous schools. Not wanting ..."This is a discussion forum. A review is likely to get lost here. The designated place for reviews is as follows: click on the book cover (above), then click on "My Review" (at about 8 o'clock on the page).
Very nice review. I would say that the climax for me was the ending. Why, because it was such an anticlimax. I ended up rereading the book and instead of assuming that I understood this form of writing decided that maybe the message of this book was between the lines. I was even more disappointed with the "official" interpretation, because for me it seemed to be trying to explain something but it wasn't a perfect fit. It not realistic that a boy as old as Holden that has gone to private schools all his life doesn't know where ducks go during the winter, for instance. But lets take the carousel scene:
Holden is holding Phoebe money. When they get to the carousel the music playing is 'Smoke Gets in Your Eyes'. Read the lyrics. Is that what you would expect on a carousel? But when you think about the stock market of 1929 to me this is a great metaphor. Many people credit the war for getting us out of the depression. One of the objects in the book that Holden defines for us is the hat. Holden says that the hat is a people shooting hat, I hunt people.
Without Hollywood and propaganda films and schools would they have been able to create a WWII? Another thing that makes this book interesting to me is to read The Catcher and the Rye like a book that is impregnated with meaning, rather than like a Nancy Drew book. So you get to the 'history' teacher named 'Mr. Spencer'. You look him up and find that he coined the word survival of the fittest. But what does that have to do with war. Do the good guys always win? No. Sometimes life is a game that is unfair. And sometimes men create that game be it in a casino or on the battlefield. That what a game is all about, creating odds in your favor.
Some of the markers in the book seemed to be around words that created an emotional up tick... like 'that kills me' or 'that really made me very sad,' when talking about Radio City Music Hall.' reading about the history of RCMH makes you see how important movies were to bring about the war. People went there to escape the 'depression' and they got a good dose of propaganda.
One of the all time favorites of the silver screen was Shirley Temple. Here first movie was called 'Stand Up And Cheer'. I had never heard of this movie before. It reminded me of the football game and how you were suppose to cheer. The movie is a war propaganda film 1934. Hitler became chancellor in 1933. I believe lot of American's helped him get in office... including John Rockefeller... the same guy that built the Radio City Music Hall. It was just part of setting up the 'game'.
If you Google search 'Duck WWII' you will find a vehicle used during the war made by GM. GM made a ton of money off the war. In fact every vehicle that is mentioned in the Catcher in The Rye is a GM except that 'English job' the Jaguar.
There is a lot more history and literary references in the Catcher. It took Salinger over 10 years to complete the book, so maybe there is more there than meets the eye.
When Salinger wrote the book people were familiar with the film nd literary references. But today they are obscure and the 'cliff notes' just skirt over them as if they were secondary to the story. I think they are primary.
Even the name Holden is the name of a car factory that GM bought in 1931. Was this forethought? Did the CEOs of GM know something the rest of us were ignorant of? I did not know about the history of this car company till I started researching The Catcher in the Rye.
And NYC... he wasn't just in NYC he was going through the financial side of Central Park.... even in that there are very interesting tidbits.
Hope you give the book another read. And don't stop to smell some of the roses like thru books that he mentions and put those on your reading list.
There maybe many interpretations for a book. It is after all an interactive experience. Not everyone comes away with the same experience. Sometimes it is what you put into it. It just happen to click with me this way. Happy reading. Glad you gave the Catcher a shot.
Monty J wrote: "Amy wrote: "Just before Christmas holiday begins for the private school Pencey Prep, situated in Pennsylvania, 16-year-old Holden Caulfield is expelled – just as he had been from previous schools. ..."How rude, maybe this is how she wants to start a discussion. Maybe she wants to compare her experience to others.
Cosmic wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Amy wrote: "Just before Christmas holiday begins for the private school Pencey Prep, situated in Pennsylvania, 16-year-old Holden Caulfield is expelled – just as he had been from pr..."Thanks for the tip. I provided more context.
Catcher in the Rye, written by J.D. Salinger, and whether it is a joy to read is in fact, a very controversial topic. The book is about 16 year Holden Caulfield, the rebellious, hypocritical protagonist. As much as the attitude of this “relatable” teen completely appalls me, I found the book very intriguing to read, as well as very well written. As intriguing as this book is, the adult like situations, extreme personalities of each character, and of course the thoughts of Holden, are not in any way suitable for anyone under the age of 13 to read about and process. Salinger uses extreme profanity throughout the novel in order to portray Holden’s personality, as well as colloquialism, and sarcasm. Throughout the 3 day time period, Holden experiences situations involving sex, alcohol, and other illegal activities.
Holden himself, is also a very controversial topic. He is indeed a very unlikable person. His criticism, repetitive bad actions, sarcasm, and snarky, rude attitude make him a hard character to read about and enjoy. The Catcher in the Rye, similar to most novels, is found enjoyable simply by matter of opinion. I find going into the mind of a depressed, seeming to be psychotic teenager, more than entertaining. After all, Holden’s thoughts are what kept my attention throughout the novel.
From every mischievous action that Holden makes, to every mischievous thought he has, to the moment he finally finds true happiness, he deals with depression, loneliness, “phonies”, and much more, all major components to what almost led him to throwing himself over the age, up until the very moment he creates with his younger sister Phoebe, who creates just the amount of love and affectionate that Holden needs to be saved. Salinger’s novel about an imaginative, critical, depressed teen tells more than just an average story about a fictional teen, which is what sets this novel far apart from many others, as well as what creates a very good read.
Sammie wrote: "Catcher in the Rye, written by J.D. Salinger, and whether it is a joy to read is in fact, a very controversial topic. The book is about 16 year Holden Caulfield, the rebellious, hypocritical protag..."This is a discussion forum. A review is likely to get lost here. The designated place for reviews is as follows: click on the book cover (above), then click on "My Review" (at about 8 o'clock on the page).
The book starts with Holden in a mental hospital telling us a story that happened a year ago. He got kicked out of the school which lead to Holden running away to the city of New York. This book tells a series of event that Holden went through that lead to an enlightenment. The enlightenment made him realize that his dreams were unrealistic and impossible; however as he said in the end of the book that it did not change who he was as a person. Also, he experiences the dark side of New York City through his encounters with prostitute and crimes. This book is highly recommended for it is unlike any other books I have read in my life. The colloquium and profanity gives a more realistic view of Holden, and its big theme of innocence can be understood by almost everyone who had a childhood.
Welcome to Goodreads! I see this is the first book you have reviewed. Glad you liked this book, it is definitely one of my favorites, but for perhaps different reasons.
Iksun wrote: "The book starts with Holden in a mental hospital telling us a story that happened a year ago. He got kicked out of the school which lead to Holden running away to the city of New York. This book te..."I like what you got out of the book. It is also one of my all time favorites.
The Catcher in the Rye follows a young, confused, and somewhat pessimistic college boy, who has been kicked out. Holden Caulfield is an observing, judgmental, and interesting character that you follow in a narrative styled story. These attributes and characteristics are part of what made this book unlike any other I have read thus far in my history of reading. Caulfield, the main character, may spend a whole page describing how ugly a certain character may be. The character, Holden Caulfield, has been kicked out of Pencey, a college full of diverse people, none of which Holden is overly fond of. The story tells of his last days at Pencey Prep and his return home. We meet characters like Robert Ackley, the slobbish dorm-neighbor who asks too many questions, and his sister Phoebe, who is the only one of his family who knows he was kicked out for awhile. This story tells of him trying to find himself and find things that he likes. The character in this story is not defined as bold and strong, or scared and weak, as most stories may describe characters. Rather, we learn about whom he is by hearing his thoughts on what happens and goes on throughout his life. He describes the good and bad in each type of person. Or how self obsessed a seemingly kind and caring person can be. This book is a narrative in which we are told every little thought that comes to the characters mind. I enjoyed this book a lot, and found it to be more of a leisurely activity to read, rather than thinking of it as an assignment. I would rate this book 4 out of 5. Another positive thing about this book is that it is a rather quick read, so if you do not thoroughly enjoy it, you are not stuck with it for a month or so. I enjoyed The Catcher in the Rye, and suggest you read it.
Why are you quoting me when you are answering Kristsa?
Krista wrote: "The Catcher in the Rye follows a young, confused, and somewhat pessimistic college boy, who has been kicked out. Holden Caulfield is an observing, judgmental, and interesting character that you fol..."I believe that Holden was 16, and Pencey Prep was a boarding school for boys. He was in high school not college.
Also there is some controversy over what Holden was in the hospital for. I thought it was for TB. But this is also another possibility:
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/afd...
Even though my book review was very different from yours, i believe that this book can hold two meanings depending if one takes the book literal or as an allegory.
But either way the literary references should have something to do with the author's intended meaning. This is often overlooked in my opinion. I don't hear many people bring these references up. Obviously movies and books were important to Holden. He mentions quite a few of them and he took his sister to see The 39 Steps ten times.
Did any of you watch the movie?
How did that add meaning to the story?
Why do you think Holden mentioned it? Or why do you think Phoebe liked this movie so much?
I have equated the ducks to:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DUKW
The wandering around in central park reminds me of War and D-day...because in war you lose your self. If Salinger was talking about PTSD it was something he and many that read his books could relate to since the war had ended but not the nightmare of war.
What do you think Salinger audience was when he wrote this book? Most boys went off to war right out of high school. I bet many didn't finish high school. During the great depression many schools closed because there was no money.
James wrote: "Why are you quoting me when you are answering Kristsa?"Sorry about that. My mistake. I deleted it and fixed it.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Cosmic wrote: "Why do you think Holden mentioned it? Or why do you think Phoebe liked this movie so much?"The hero of The 39 Steps was an innocent who was pursued by espionage agents who had infiltrated local British government agencies, including the police. Fascism was, and still is, a political force within the U.K. and worldwide. Salinger worked in counterintelligence for three plus years during WWII, and volunteered to return to Europe to hunt Nazi war criminals after recovering from his nervous collapse. He was well aware of the worldwide continuing threat of fascism.
Perhaps he thought The 39 Steps would raise awareness about the threat of foreign espionage and made such a prominent mention of the film to keep the fascist threat in the public consciousness.
The John Birch/Ayn Rand fascists have almost gained control over the Republican party in the U.S. Salinger was right.
Cosmic wrote:"What do you think Salinger audience was when he wrote this book? Most boys went off to war right out of high school."
He never intended the book for the young adult audience, per se; so it could have been targeted for returning war veterans, who were by then adults, in every sense. But I don't get a strong sense of this from reading Salinger's work. I just think he wanted to raise awareness about America's loss of innocence, caused by the war, perhaps. The bullies who caused James Castle's death could easily represent the Nazis. Stradlater's sexual exploitation of innocent girls echos this theme, as does Ms Morrow's towel-flipping "bastard of a son," Ernest. The disease of leukemia that killed Allie could represent the disease of fascism. But the book lacks enough supporting symbolism to carry off this theme, in my view.
The Central Park ducks are innocent, but tying them to WWII watercraft used for carrying troops to shore is a stretch for me. They were used primarily in the Pacific theater, and Salinger wouldn't have had exposure to them in his European assignments.
Oddly, the book is marketed to young adults, most of whom can't comprehend its meaning and can't relate to Holden.
Monty J wrote: "Cosscism was, and still is, a political force within the U.K. and worldwide..."I am not arguing with you on this but just want to add to what you have said by defining fascism for the sake of our discussion. I want to expand this thought that you have brought up in light of the Catcher. I will write about this more tomorrow.
Fascism
scism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy during World War I, in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and Anarchism. Fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[3][4]
Fascists saw World War I as a revolution. It brought revolutionary changes in the nature of war, society, the state, and technology. The advent of total war and total mass mobilization of society had broken down the distinction between civilian and combatant. A "military citizenship" arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner during the war.[5][6] The war had resulted in the rise of a powerful state capable of mobilizing millions of people to serve on the front lines or provide economic production and logistics to support those on the front lines, as well as having unprecedented authority to intervene in the lives of citizens.[5][6] Fascists view World War I as having made liberal democracy obsolete, and regard total mobilization of society under a totalitarian single-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[7] Such a state is led by a strong leader — such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party — to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society.[7] Fascism rejects assertions of violence automatically being negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation.[8][9][10][11]
Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[12] Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The terms neo-fascist or post-fascist are sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideologies similar to, or rooted in, 20th century fascist movements.[13]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Cosmic wrote: " Following World War II, few parties have openly described themselves as fascist, and the term is usually used pejoratively by political opponents."Interesting that examples aren't given of the atrocities committed by HItler, Mussolini, Franco, and others.
Monty J wrote: "CosInteresting that examples aren't given of the atrocities committed by HItler, Mussolini, Franco, and others..."Well this was the top of the page that I copied.
The Italian term fascismo derives from fascio meaning a bundle of hay, ultimately from the Latin word fasces.[14] This was the name given to political organizations in Italy known as fasci, groups similar to guilds or syndicates and at first applied mainly to organisations on the Left. In 1919, in Milan, Mussolini founded the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento—which, in 1921, became the Partito Nazionale Fascista (National Fascist Party). The Fascists came to associate the name with the ancient Roman fasces or fascio littorio[15]—a bundle of rods tied around an axe,[16] an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of the civic magistrate[17] carried by his lictors, which could be used for corporal and capital punishment at his command.[18][19]
The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break.[20] Similar symbols were developed by different fascist movements: for example the Falange symbol is five arrows joined together by a yoke.[21]
What was very interesting was the Oxford dictionary definition:
1) an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
synonyms: authoritarianism · totalitarianism · dictatorship · [more]
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press
I put a little bit more here because it really speaks to what I want to say about the Catcher tomorrow.
Monty J wrote: "Coism was, and still is, a political force within the U.K. and worldwide. .."I am going to publish this it is 11:15 am. But i am not through.
This is a quote from the Catcher:
"How much is it, for God's sake?"
"Eight dollars and eighty-five cents. Sixty-five cents. I spent some."
Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared hell out of old Phoebe when I started doing it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can't just stop on a goddam dime."
She spent 20 cents. In 1920 we set Germany up for WW2
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_...
I am always learning so much...
Rest of 1920
The last five months of the year were much less eventful in Germany. The country was still suffering from a shortage of food, though not in the acute degree which was so painfully characteristic of Austria and also of some of the other countries farther east. The German government appear to have made serious efforts to comply with their treaty obligations regarding disarmament and reparation. Thus, in the three weeks following the Spa conference over 4,000 heavy guns and field guns were destroyed; and measures were taken to obtain the very large number of arms which existed all over the country in the hands of the civilian population. Great numbers of livestock were also handed over to the Allies. Thus France received from Germany (up to November 30) over 30,000 horses, over 65,000 cattle, and over 100,000 sheep. Belgium received, up to the same date, 6,000 horses, 67,000 cattle, and 35,000 sheep.
The financial position of the country remained extremely serious. The total national debt (funded debt and floating debt) amounted to 200,000,000,000 marks, that is, £10,000,000,000 sterling at the old prewar rate of exchange. The anticipated revenue for the year 1920-21 was 27,950,000,000 marks, and the anticipated ordinary expenditure was 23,800,000,000 marks. There was, however, also an anticipated extraordinary expenditure of no less than 11,600,000,000 marks. A heavy deficit on the railways was also expected. The exchange value of the mark had fallen disastrously since the armistice, and though it rose towards the end of the year, the mark was still reckoned at over 200 to the pound sterling in December.
Various statistics of population were published during the year. Among other significant features, it was stated that the number of children under five years of age, in the whole of the territories of the former Hohenzollern empire, had sunk from 8,000,000 in 1911 to 5,000,000 in 1919."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_...
"We study history because history repeats itself." This is what my history teacher told me when i asked, think that history was boring.
He also mentions the word dime right before Stradlater hits him and knocks him out.
See the fascist symbol?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasci...
You can't really see the AX...here is a better picture
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_...
I knew I had written about this fascist symbol before.
Here:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
but I didn't tie it together with the dime...instead I connected it to his saying:
figured my parents probably wouldn't get old Thurmer's letter saying I'd been given the ax till maybe Tuesday or Wednesday. I didn't want to go home or anything till they got it and thoroughly digested it and all. I didn't want to be around when they first got it. My mother gets very hysterical. She's not too bad after she gets something thoroughly digested, though
So I got the ax. They give guys the ax quite frequently at Pencey. It has a very good academic rating, Pencey. It really does.
Then all of a sudden, she said, "Oh, why did you do it?" She meant "why did I get the ax again." It made me sort of sad, the way she said it.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Was America Fascists before the war?
n the so-called Business Plot in 1933 Major General Smedley Butler claimed that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow President of the United States Franklin D. Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified to the Special Committee on Un-American Activities Congressional committee (the "McCormack-Dickstein Committee") on these claims. In the opinion of the committee, these allegations were credible.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasci...
I am sure that is why Sinclair Lewis wrote It Can't Happen Here
There are always two sides to war...the winners get to write the history. The winners are right and the losers are wrong. Holden talks about "the game."
That's how history is always written. We believe in the survival of the fittest (Spencers and quote) or that God is going to allow the good guys to win.
But War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier: - Illustrated Edition - by Smedley D. Butler would argue against this kind of historical view. ...and maybe this is the "racket" that hits Holden on the head when he looks into the closet (for the skeletons).
Salinger just like Holden couldn't fault the system...the army or the school respectively. It was not patriotic. They had to internalize it instead. Just like a child can't admit his parents are wrong and he starts internalizing it. Salinger didn't have a breakdown because he went to see a movie, he had a breakdown because he was in the war.
He saw things that the people back home could not imagine and he could not speak about. He lost his innocence and it was a bloody war and those that profited by it that were to blame.
You won't read this just reading the book once or twice...but if you read it four times in a row the noise in the story starts to filter out and you pick up the 3-D image. Some people, like myself can't see the 3-D images to those "magic prints". But the ones that can can never see the picture the same.
So if you didn't get all this out of the Catcher and it really doesn't interest you that much ok, but this is what gets me excited. Because before i read the Catcher i didn't know anything about WW2. Except the little i forgot from High School.
Cosmic wrote: "Salinger didn't have a breakdown because he went to see a movie, he had a breakdown because he was in the war. He saw things that the people back home could not imagine and he could not speak about. He lost his innocence and it was a bloody war and those that profited by it that were to blame."
Exactly.
Cosmic, you posted a link there to neo-Nazi anti-Semitic hate on the Internet.Seriously? What is wrong with you? This thread has young readers on it and you are exposing them to the worst sort of garbage on the Internet.
That's shameful.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Cosmic, you posted a link there to neo-Nazi anti-Semitic hate on the Internet.Seriously? What is wrong with you? This thread has young readers on it and you are exposing them to the worst sort of..."
I did not know that. What do you mean?
Follow the link you posted above to Hellstorm...the name alone should be a tip off.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Follow the link you posted above to Hellstorm...the name alone should be a tip off."Yes, I just checked. This should be removed, or it will be reported.
Monty J wrote: "Petergiaquinta wrote: "Follow the link you posted above to Hellstorm...the name alone should be a tip off."Yes, I just checked. This should be removed, or it will be reported."
No problem, I removed it. Sorry i didn't mean to offend anyone.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Follow the link you posted above to Hellstorm...the name alone should be a tip off."Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I removed it.
Monty J wrote: "The Central Park ducks are innocent, but tying them to WWII watercraft used for carrying troops to shore is a stretch for me. They were used primarily in the Pacific theater, and Salinger wouldn't have had exposure to them in his European assignments...."You have said they are innocent...as if they are victims of something? But Salinger doesn't say anything about innocence. I personally think if the study guides didn't keep repeating this that no one would come up with this interpretation on their own.
Holden first mentions the ducks while he is have a conversation with his history teacher 'old Spenser'.
I believe this is a reference to Herbert Spencer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbe... who coined the phrase survival of the fittest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survi...
Why do I think this because of him being a history teacher and the idea that history repeats itself. Holden argues with him that it isn't fair to compare 'life' as a game because it there are those that have no chance, such as the people that were in Hamburg during WW2.
"The attack during the last week of July 1943, Operation Gomorrah, created one of the largest firestorms raised by the Royal Air Force and United States Army Air Forces in World War II,[2] killing 42,600 civilians and wounding 37,000 in Hamburg and virtually destroying most of the city.[3] Before the development of the firestorm in Hamburg there had been no rain for some time and everything was very dry.[4] The unusually warm weather and good conditions meant that the bombing was highly concentrated around the intended targets and also created a vortex and whirling updraft of super-heated air which created a 1,500-foot-high tornado of fire, a totally unexpected effect. Various other previously used techniques and devices were instrumental as well, such as area bombing, Pathfinders, and H2S radar, which came together to work with particular effectiveness. An early form of chaff, code named 'Window', was successfully used for the first time by the RAF – clouds of shredded tinfoil dropped by Pathfinders as well as the initial bomber stream – in order to completely cloud German radar. The raids inflicted severe damage to German armaments production in Hamburg."
Holden is thinking:
"Game, my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it's a game, all right--I'll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game. "
Hamburg was like "shooting ducks in a barrel". So maybe this is where he gets the ducks from?
Or maybe it is a reference to Donald Duck who was used as war propaganda.
Salinger knew all about that. Just like life is a game so is war. Or chess or duck hunting.
Mr Spencer is totally subservient to Mr Thurmur:
"There was this one old guy, Mr. Spencer. His wife was always giving you hot chocolate and all that stuff, and they were really pretty nice. But you should've seen him when the headmaster, old Thurmer, came in the history class and sat down in the back of the room. He was always coming in and sitting down in the back of the room for about a half an hour. He was supposed to be incognito or something. After a while, he'd be sitting back there and then he'd start interrupting what old Spencer was saying to crack a lot of corny jokes. Old Spencer'd practically kill himself chuckling and smiling and all, like as if Thurmer was a goddam prince or something."
Thurmur is a name used in the Masonic lodge:
is generally accepted that the rough ashlar refers to a rough hewstone as brought from the quarries, which in olden times was cut one eighth to one sixteenth of an inch over the required finished measure. However, the meaning of the broached thurnel in the catechism is uncertain. It seems most likely to have been derived from the Scottish operative masons to whom broach meant to rough-hew, or to groove or scarify. A broaching thurmal, broaching thurmer or broaching turner was the chisel used to carry out broaching work. One form of the broaching thurmal is a narrow serrated chisel similar in many respects to the scutch, a cutting and dressing tool used by a bricklayer, probably is derived from the Old French escousser meaning to shake off. Thus the three immovable jewels referred to in the old catechisms of an apprentice logically symbolized the instructions he received for the work, represented by the tresel board; the tools he used to execute the work, represented by the broached thurnel; and his finished product, the rough ashlar. Another possible derivation of thurnel is as a variation of the French tournelle, which means a turret, because the word was in common use in England in various forms from about 1400 until at least the 1750s.
Yet another suggested derivation is from the German thurm, which means a tower, because that word also was in general use in England during the same period. Moreover, it is likely that the French tournelle and German thurm have a common ancestry, from which the Scottish thurmal or thurmer may also have been derived.
http://www.hiram.net/mi-masons/The_Je...
So back to school...we have a head master that scars children by etching facts or views of history into their minds. They don't need to make sense. They need to be memorized and tested to make sure the programming worked.
How does this fit into the 39 Steps:
You can watch of it on YouTube for free.
So as to not have any spoilers why don't I just give everyone a chance to watch it first. So I will come back next week after everyone has watched it.
Petergiaquinta wrote: "Cosmic, you posted a link there to neo-Nazi anti-Semitic hate on the Internet.Seriously? What is wrong with you? This thread has young readers on it and you are exposing them to the worst sort of..."
You are ridiculous. On a site that PROTESTS the banning of books for anyone, for ANY reason, you would attempt to shame Cosmic for citing a source that helps to tie together her ideas for CITR, for the sake of the *children*.
Get over your pretentious little self.
Uh, spreading neo-Nazi hatred on the Internet is shameful and has no place on Goodreads, especially in the discussion of a novel about tolerance and compassion written by a (part) Jewish man who was at the liberation of a death camp.Cosmic was wrong, and so are you.
Sheila wrote: "citing a source that helps to tie together her ideas for CITR, for the sake of the *children*."If this were an adults-only site, it would be a different matter, but where children are involved we have an obligation to be circumspect. Schools screen material as a routine responsibility. Goodreads is final arbiter of what goes on their site. They make that clear in their Terms of Use. Reporting something for their perusal is not censorship, but they claim right of censorship over their site.
Part of those terms includes the agreement not to post "hate" material, and anything even vaguely pro-Nazi falls in that category. But it's up to Goodreads management to decide. If we don't like that, nobody's holding a gun to hour heads to join Goodreads.
"There were even more upstairs, with deer inside them drinking at water holes, and birds flying south for the winter. The birds nearest you were all stuffed and hung up on wires, and the ones in back were just painted on the wall, but they all looked like they were really flying south, and if you bent your head down and sort of looked at them upside down, they looked in an even bigger hurry to fly south."This is a quote from the Catcher in the Rye when Holden visits the museum when he was in grade school.
Now what is interesting is that Holden does indeed know that birds migrate for the winter.
But also I like the idea of changing perspectives. "If you bent your head down and sort of looked at them upside down, they looked in an even bigger hurry to fly south."
I think this is a very big pointer to WW2. Maybe he was talking about Donald Duck and the war propaganda films that Disney made? Most likely it was, because Holden says that he "hates the movies" and this is because they are the medium by which men were sold on the war.
It reminds me of "Back To the Future 9 11". In that documentary clip he talks about what it means to view something upside down as well as the power of the media, especially film or television (of course there was no television in the 30's. But what there was was cheap movies. A dime would buy you an escape!)
Do you know of any other books or movies that depict the Tarot card "The Hangman"?
"Go ahead, then--I'll be on this bench right over here. I'll watch ya." I went over and sat down on this bench, and she went and got on the carrousel. She walked all around it. I mean she walked once all the way around it. Then she sat down on this big, brown, beat-up-looking old horse. Then the carrousel started, and I watched her go around and around. There were only about five or six other kids on the ride, and the song the carrousel was playing was "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes." It was playing it very jazzy and funny. All the kids kept trying to grab for the gold ring, and so was old Phoebe, and I was sort of afraid she'd fall off the goddam horse, but I didn't say anything or do anything. The thing with kids is, if they want to grab the gold ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything. If they fall off they fall off, but it's bad if you say anything to them."When it comes to war we don't want children to know what might happen. They might not get on the ride. They might not get on the "goddamn bus".
Smoke Gets In Your Eyes (lyrics)
They asked me how I knew
My true love was true
Oh, I of course replied
Something here inside cannot be denied
They said someday you'll find
All who love are blind
Oh, when your heart's on fire
You must realize
Smoke gets in your eyes
So I chaffed them and I gaily laughed
To think they could doubt my love
Yet today my love has flown away
I am without my love
Now laughing friends deride
Tears I can not hide
Oh, so I smile and say
When a lovely flame dies
Smoke gets in your eyes
Smoke gets in your eyes
Glenn Miller conducted his rendition of the song at Abbey Road Studios in 1944. His orchestral version of the song was not released until 1995, due to his sudden death in 1944.
While he was traveling to entertain U.S. troops in France during World War II, Glenn Miller's aircraft disappeared in bad weather over the English Channel.
hile in England, now Major Miller recorded a series of records at EMI owned Abbey Road Studios.[84][85] The recordings the AAF band made in 1944 at Abbey Road were propaganda broadcasts for the Office of War Information. Many songs are sung in German by Johnny Desmond and Glenn Miller speaks in German about the war effort.[86] Before Miller's disappearance, his music was used by World War II AFN radio broadcasting for entertainment and morale as well as counter-propaganda to denounce fascist oppression in Europe with even Miller once stating on radio:
"America means freedom and there's no expression of freedom quite so sincere as music."[87][88][89]
There were also the Miller-led AAF Orchestra-recorded songs with American singer Dinah Shore. These were done at the Abbey Road studios and were the last recorded songs made by the band while being led by Miller. They were stored with HMV/EMI for fifty years, never being released until their copyright expired in Europe in 1994.[90][91] In summarizing Miller's military career, General Jimmy Doolittle said, "next to a letter from home, that organization was the greatest morale builder in the European Theater of Operations."
he bombing of Dresden was a UK/US aerial bombing attack on the city of Dresden, the capital of the German state of Saxony, that took place during the Second World War in the European Theatre. Germany would surrender three months later. In four raids between 13 and 15 February 1945, 722 heavy bombers of the British Royal Air Force (RAF) and 527 of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city.[1] The bombing and the resulting firestorm destroyed over 1,600 acres (6.5 km2) of the city centre.[2] An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed. Three more USAAF air raids followed, two occurring on 2 March and 17 April aimed at the city's railroad marshaling yard and one small raid on 17 April aimed at industrial areas.
I guess there are books on Goodreads that have adult content, such as the Catcher In The Rye. So if they are old enough to read that then i don't think the truth about war will hurt them. I am not for any government that is racist aginst humans.
Monty J wrote: "Sheila wrote: "citing a source that helps to tie together her ideas for CITR, for the sake of the *children*."If this were an adults-only site, it would be a different matter, but where children ..."
I agree with you Monty, but there is an author here on GR who does just that- promoting his vaguely, or not so vaguely pro-nazi books.
Cosmic wrote: "An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed."This is an extremely conservative and politically-oriented estimate of the number of people killed in the Dresden atrocity. Other sources put the number up as high as 300,000-500,000. The film version of Slaughterhouse Five deals graphically with this subject. More details about it are in my review of the novel here: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Dresden was considered a safe haven for war refugees because it had no targets of military significance; so the population swelled, and there were no bomb shelters. The number of refugees alone was estimated at 300,000, according to my Web research.
The reason the official body count is so low is because they stopped looking. In excavating for survivors they kept uncovering areas with (don't read this if you don't have a strong stomach) (view spoiler). After a few days of this, people refused to dig beneath the rubble anymore. That's what Dresden had become, rubble.
The decaying remains of untold numbers of uncounted dead are beneath the streets of Dresden to this day. Ashes to ashes. But officially, the German government doesn't want to talk about it.
Dresden was the Allied war efforts worst atrocity of WWII. Kurt Vonnegut's views on it can be found on Youtube, if you're interested.
Salinger, working in counterintelligence, likely knew about Dresden. Regardless, with three straight years of combat experience in some of the worst battles of the war (including Utah Beach, The Battle of the Bulge and the liberation of Dachau*), he had seen plenty of atrocity, on both sides, I'm sure, and his war experience had to have influenced his writing. One of his future novels supposed to address his war experience. One is coming out late this year, as I recall; so we may know soon.
*"The sub-camps of Dachau liberated by Salinger’s division were Horgau-Pfersee, Aalen, Ellwagen, Haunstetten, Turkenfald, and Wolfrathausen.” --http://www.jns.org/latest-articles/20...
Also, see my blog on Salinger: http://jdsalinger-heying.blogspot.com/
Monty J wrote: "CoThis is an extremely conservative and politically-oriented estimate of the number of people killed in the Dresden atrocity. ..."
Thank you Monty! I am sure this is the case. I can only imagine how much no one, wanted to be counting dead bodies. They just wish that that nightmare was over. It is amazing that people lived on past that point and rised families and had a life. I can't imagine.
I definitely want to read Slaughterhouse Five!
Monty J wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "An estimated 22,700[3] to 25,000[4] people were killed."This is an extremely conservative and politically-oriented estimate of the number of people killed in the Dresden atrocity. ..."
Monty, one thing that I don't claim is that the Catcher is autobiographical. What my point is that it is about war and Wall Street (Madison Avenue).
I was looking up James Madison. He was for a National Bank (unconstitutional). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James...
I like Rothschild's quote "Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."
It has been a while since i have been on this thread. Tonight I was thinking about the first line in the catcher in the rye. About how if Holden was a car then who were his parents that he was "protecting".Maybe Holden being a car is something you had never heard of before. Well i invite you to check out this link.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
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War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier (other topics)
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It Can't Happen Here (other topics)War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier (other topics)
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J.D. Salinger’s writing was perfected, with the reader being actively engaged through his use of vivid diction and storytelling. While Holden appears superficially emotionless and careless, as the story progresses, his true feelings are pronounced, and his character is clearly developed. The book was intriguing, with the audience hearing about Holden’s criticisms about society and his personal anecdotes, which make us feel more sympathetic towards him. The ending, however, was somewhat disappointing, and there was no dramatic climax, but while these points negatively impacted the book, the story of Holden Caulfield overall was still excellently written and depicted.