The Sword and Laser discussion
Electronic VS Print: Which is a "deaper" experience?
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It's not the format, it's the reader. You choose to highlight, etc. I rarely do that but occasionally will select a word and define it if I feel that's important. But each of us chooses to do this or not.
Whispersync for voice is the deepest form ;)
I do get that the reader chooses those ways of reading, but there's something fundamentally different about the two that facilitates/ encourages different styles in each medium. When you open a hardback you don't have a set of highlighters sitting there along with an index of every word in the novel. There is a different context to each form. I think that has to effect readers in different ways and to different degrees (and many to a very minuscule degree) but I don't think the fact that between readers the effect is different means that it's simply a reader-choice thing. If that makes sense? :p(I think this might even tie in with Tom's story of reading Altered carbon, the pretty good for a trashy airport novel novel and reading Altered Carbon, the award winning hardboiled scifi mystery. If that simple change in context gave tom such a radically different novel, then all the extreme changes from one format to another should have some kind of effect)
I don't think there is any difference for me between read-tree and e-reader. I never highlight or bookmark, and I rarely stop to look anything up. I do sometimes skim over things though, and listening to an audio book stops me from doing that, which can be a good thing, unless I find the book even more boring that way. I think you can edit topics, same as the posts, if it bothers you too much :)
I hadn't thought about whether or not it's a deeper reading experience but I think the Kindle is leading me to read more actively. Because I don't need to pick up a pen and notebook to record my thoughts, or permanently defile the pristine pages (I never got comfortable with that) I feel more free to make notes. That makes me think through the ideas the book has inspired, so they become better formed. And patterns start to emerge as I make notes on similar points, leading me to notice recurring themes and patterns in the book.So on balance that seems like a yes, the Kindle is leading me personally to read more deeply.
If I'm using my Kindle e-reader, I don't really notice any difference in the reading experience. Though sometimes I come across one of those totally random sentences that 1,500 people or something have highlighted and I spend several minutes trying to work out why.If I'm using the Kindle app on my tablet or smartphone, though, the various notifications, messages and other distractions are constantly interrupting my reading experience. Not to mention the ever-present temptation to just flip to a game or something anyway.
I think I'm leaning towards feeling that I read more deeply on paper.
I make my Kindle reading experience as much like dead tree as possible. I don't highlight, I have seeing other people's highlights turned off. If I want to check something I bookmark it just like sticking a paper bookmark in a paper book. I used to keep the "how many minutes left in the chapter" up but now I just check it when I want to know, just as in a paper book I might leaf forward a bit to check; in other words, I have as few distractions on it as possible.I've actually never seriously considered highlighting. As for the dictionary, usually if I want to look something up the dictionary won't have it so I'd have to Google it; occasionally I do, just as I would with a dead tree edition.
I'm not tempted to change this.
Rob wrote: "I do get that the reader chooses those ways of reading, but there's something fundamentally different about the two that facilitates/ encourages different styles in each medium. When you open a har..."No there's not. At least not to me. Perhaps my reaction is borne out of the fact that I see too many people talking about things like this as if they had no choice - that ebooks force them to read differently - and I am severely allergic to arguments where people abdicate their responsibility for a 'devil made me do it' stance.
I read almost exclusively on my iPad these days after reading thousands of books on paper. I can get just as immersed in ebook form as in paper form, it's all about my attitude.
In fact, one of the things I like about ebooks is the ability to look things up. If you read Kadrey's Sandman Slim series, the names of his characters almost all have grounding in mythology and knowing the mythological meaning of the name can add a dimension to the books. On paper I'd never have bothered to look many of them up but on my iPad it's a quick highlight and lookup. On the other hand, if I don't want to mess with that... I don't.
I'm reading Words of Radiance on my phone with Nook software. The problem? Can't see the pictures very well and certainly can't read the miniscule handwriting on and around them! ARGH. In this case, I'd vote for print. Most of the time I'd say Electronic. Stephen King might vote audio.
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,15514...
Thane - is your issue that it's electronic? Or that you're looking at a book on a phone that's too small to show you things like the pictures? Take that same example... make the pictures color. Make the device a 7-10" retina tablet. Electronic wins then because it's highly likely the print version would be in B&W. If the pictures were B&W it would be a tossup of course.
For me, the paper book is everything.e-readers lack personality, lack tactile interaction, sensory interaction. It doesn't smell or feel or sound or even look like a book. I don't write in books, ever, so that isn't really a factor for me. I'm not a highlighter, I rarely if ever have to look up anything.
For the "deeper" experience, it has to be a hardback book for me.
I don't think either way is deeper for me. If a book is good, I'll be deeply into it regardless of format. If there's something I want to look up in a paper book, I'll still go look it up. I do highlight passages on my kindle though. I don't with DTE books.
Rick wrote: "Thane - is your issue that it's electronic? Or that youre looking at a book on a phone that's too small to show you things like the pictures. Take that same example... make the pictures color. Mak..."
Too small and I can't seem to resize the pictures. I'll just have to try it on the iPad one of these days. If I can pry MY iPad away from the kids.
The obvious solution, Thane, is to buy them their own iPad :)
You can also get the appropriate app on your desktop computer and view the graphics that way.Sometimes, the graphics are also posted online; Brandon Sanderson has, I'm pretty sure, the Way of Kings graphics on his website. Which is an extra step, but still, it's available at least...
Rick wrote: "The obvious solution, Thane, is to buy them their own iPad :)"Hah. They all think they need phones already. The youngest is seven. Who's he going to call! No one. Phones are for games and videos, don't ya know, dad!
For me, the "deepness" of the experience is about the same for both. They both have their pro's and cons.A kindle is easier to carry around than many books, especially hardcovers, I can carry many books at once, and I can look up words without going to the dictionary or computer.
With a real book I can flip back and forth easier, especially if there are maps or such involved, more easily see when the next chapter break is, and there seems to be fewer misprinted words than I see with e-books.
It's a pet peeve when people talk about the smell of books. You're using the wrong organ!
When it comes to immersion, I think I edge more into the paper book side. That doesn't mean I don't like reading on my phone or computer with the Kindle app, but I get a bit more immersed when it comes to the little things books give you. The sensation of the paper on your hands, their smell (brand new, really old), the sound of pages turning, etc. I don't know how, but that contributes to my reading experience. Maybe because I started reading Dandelion Wine by Ray Bradbury a few days back I have noticed these little things on some of my everyday activities...Anyway, on the utility side, I like electronic better. Highlighting, taking notes, and looking up unknown words are easier. I can take my whole Kindle library with me wherever I go (and that's great if you like to have some reading options when you're, let's say, stuck on traffic). And e-books can also get really, really cheap on sales (got The Way of Kings last year for $3, not to mention the option of free books).
Mod
I think I read less deeply in electronic form because I'm reading in these tiny little chunks. But the convenience of e-reading (now paired with voice whispersync) means that I read quite a bit. After I graduated college my pleasure reading went down to almost nothing until I took up Kindle. The biggest disadvantage now, though, is that if I read a book I think a friend will like, there's really no good way for me to lend it to them.
Cattfish wrote: "It's a pet peeve when people talk about the smell of books. You're using the wrong organ!"I disagree. There are many different sensory experiences attached to reading a physical book. You place less importance on that one, while I do not.
I like the portability of ebooks its much more convenient way to read on the go or at work. But it is nice to disconnect for a while and read a paper book. When you spend as much time as I do working with computers its nice to step away from an electonic device and read a traditional book.I always buy hard cover editions for my favorite author when they release a new book but for authors I've never heard I normally go with ebook copy that way it doesn't take up any valuable space on my bookshelf.
Also the way we are going libraries are going to look like the one from futurma.
Rick wrote: In fact, one of the things I like about ebooks is the ability to look things up. If you read Kadrey's Sandman Slim series, the names of his characters almost all have grounding in mythology and knowing the mythological meaning of the name can add a dimension to the books. On paper I'd never have bothered to look many of them up but on my iPad it's a quick highlight and lookup. On the other hand, if I don't want to mess with that... I don't. "See, I don't think we really disagree. Right there you say that your reading experience is very different on the iPad than it is in print. Obviously the iPad isn't forcing to change your reading style (and the print book isn't preventing you from looking things up) but because of the way it's set up your experiences are different. The devil didn't make you do it, but he made it so easy that you rarely would choose otherwise.
And I'd argue that what you describe of your experience reading Sandman Slim, it's much deeper than what your experience would have been in print, you gain a greater understanding of the text without ever harming your sense of immersion (and that's why I don't know which of my experiences is deeper; I don't have that same capacity for immersion).
Catfish wrote: It's a pet peeve when people talk about the smell of books. You're using the wrong organ!
But that's the best thing about physical books, they aren't just images, they are really interesting concrete objects. I love the smell books, I love the feel, I love the weight, etc. Things like binding, cut/ normal pages, age, etc, are all just things that add character to this very personal object.
Rob wrote: "Rick wrote: In fact, one of the things I like about ebooks is the ability to look things up. If you read Kadrey's Sandman Slim series, the names of his characters almost all have grounding in mytho..."No, no, we disagree VIOLENTL... oh wait.
I guess what I'm pushing back on is the idea that ebooks are inherently less immersive as a medium for most or all people. I'm sure that's true for some... but it's not a universal. Ebooks are different in some ways... but that does not translate to less immersive or even better or worse for all. I'e stayed up until 4am with many ebooks.... just as I've down with paper ones. Hell, I read through the entire Dresden Files series in 5 weeks on my iPad. Talk about immersion...
As far as the Sandman Slim books, I like that I can look things up but I don't let it interrupt immersion. I often look things up on the second read through or early on for a character where the name strikes me as somehow crucial, but in many books I don't do this at all. I do it with Kadrey's since I've discovered that he names his characters intelligently and not just randomly.
I find little or no difference between e-ink and paper. I love being able to load 10 books and having them available as it suits my whim.
I do experience a difference between e-ink and backlit devices. The latter I find more stressful on my eyes, so I tend to skim more. It is less likely I'll get lost in the text. I do have f.lux on my computer and something similar on my phone, to reduce eye-strain a bit.
I don't think I'd like reading long texts on my phone, just too small for my taste. I've heard there is a phone overseas that has an e-ink screen on the back, much better battery life. I might give that a try if it ever makes it over here. Still the size factor whould still be there. e-Readers are about the size of a paperback, a phone's much smaller.
I do experience a difference between e-ink and backlit devices. The latter I find more stressful on my eyes, so I tend to skim more. It is less likely I'll get lost in the text. I do have f.lux on my computer and something similar on my phone, to reduce eye-strain a bit.
I don't think I'd like reading long texts on my phone, just too small for my taste. I've heard there is a phone overseas that has an e-ink screen on the back, much better battery life. I might give that a try if it ever makes it over here. Still the size factor whould still be there. e-Readers are about the size of a paperback, a phone's much smaller.
I generally find little to no difference between the two, but, for immersion, perhaps reading on my kindle has the edge. See, if there is something in a book that I don't understand, like a word I'm unfamiliar with or a reference to events I don't know about, these kinds of things will root themselves in my mind as a tickling sort of irritation which will, if I'm reading a paper book, eventually cause me to put the book down and go look up whatever it was that was bugging me. With my kindle, I can do that right there and then, meaning I get less distracted, and get back into the book much more quickly. I imagine e-readers are great for kids for the same reason. I remember keeping a massive dictionary by my bed as a girl, and I sorely missed it when I was reading elsewhere. Having a dictionary built in to the book would have been a dream for me back then.
David wrote: "I do experience a difference between e-ink and backlit devices. The latter I find more stressful on my eyes, so I tend to skim more.I have the same problem with backlit devices. The protective screen on E-ink devices sometimes picks up some glare (similar to glossy magazines), but is still much better than an LCD and only a little worse than paper. E-readers are great when I cannot carry enough books when traveling.
David wrote: "I've heard there is a phone overseas that has an e-ink screen on the back...
That would be the YotaPhone. http://yotaphone.com/en/ I have my eye on it too.
Catfish wrote: It's a pet peeve when people talk about the smell of books. You're using the wrong organ!
Rob wrote: "But that's the best thing about physical books, they aren't just images, they are really interesting concrete objects. I love the smell books, I love the feel, I love the weight, etc. Things like binding, cut/ normal pages, age, etc, are all just things that add character to this very personal object.
Exactly! The package is part of the reading experience. Not all of us appreciate the sterile technology experience that renders every book identical.
The real problem with devices is getting them turn pages accurately. Sometimes, they don't register the command. Other times, they read it too wrong and turn too many pages.
About backlit devices... Let's clear up something your eyes don't deal differently with transmitted vs reflected light. What a lot of people don't do, though, is to compare a backlit device to a paper novel The paper is MUCH less white that most backlit screens and the contrast is less. I turn my iPad down to about 5% brightness if I'm reading in the dark and, in the latest iOS version, you can adjust the white point, thus controlling how pure white the white is. I also just downloaded an interesting ereader for iOS called Marvin which has several themes including some that mimic the lessened contrast.
bottom line here is to TURN DOWN BRIGHTNESS. I'll get eyestrain fairly quickly if I use the normal brightness settings I use for looking at apps when I read. If I turn the brightness down a lot it's much better. This is even more important on Samsung devices that use a highly saturated screen.
If I'm reading on the Iphone rather than the Paperwhite I always invert the background colour - black background and off white text - no eyestrain.Where I think the Paperwhite shines though compared to lcd is if reading in full sunlight. Zero glare. I haven't compared a paper book reading in full sunlight though.
Mod
I find I get eye strain only with paper books/magazines/newspapers and it all has to do with not being able to enlarge the font size (if needed).
Getting to choose font type and size is a huge plus for eReaders for older readers.
Also, Marvin seems to be a really nice ereader program for iOS. Lots of options, including some that allow you to set various text/background options, fonts, etc. Be aware that it's iOS only and only reads non-DRMed epubs. http://marvinapp.com
I love my kindle fire. Many, many good e-texts available from Gutenberg Press. I set the background to black and use white text. I can carry a whole library around, and set the font size to whatever I want.
John wrote: "I love my kindle fire. Many, many good e-texts available from Gutenberg Press...."
Gutenberg Press and eBooks@Adelaide are a great source for books. They are books I might not want to bother my local library with getting through interlibrary loan. But being able to quickly download a book, well, lets say my "to read" list is long.
Gutenberg Press and eBooks@Adelaide are a great source for books. They are books I might not want to bother my local library with getting through interlibrary loan. But being able to quickly download a book, well, lets say my "to read" list is long.
I find e-books so much more pleasurable to read. I don't have great eyesight and I always found the curvature of paper and the uneven lighting that it caused really annoying. With paper books I was a ferocious spine cracker and every 25 pages I would have to fight with the spine again. My books also never lasted through very many readings because of my spine destroying ways so I would have to buy new copies of favorites every few reads. My kindle paperwhite goes everywhere with me and keeps me from ever having to lug 2 hardcovers with me on the subway again.
When I'm reading an ebook, my brain is firing on a lot of levels that it wouldn't be ordinarily. It's easy for me to be constantly highlighting this and that, taking notes, flipping back to earlier highlighted passages for comparison, and searching through the book for mentions of _____ character or concept. Things even get color coded on my kindle app, so I can scroll through and not just see all my notes, but all my notes on _____ theme and instantly compare the most relevant passages. My academic-brain is very active. And I normally read much more quickly than normal!
BUT all of this means I'm less immersed. If I'm going "AHA another passage on Lady Trent's missionary friends, better highlight this and then go back and see if at their last appearance they said anything interesting...oooh that's right when they last showed up they were being all White Imperialisty," then I'm somewhat removed from the novel. When I'm reading in print, unless I'm rereading, nothing like this crosses my mind. I don't stop and go "oh, what a beautiful passage of prose, better note this for later" or "ooh, this paragraph needs to be blue so I can quote it in the resleeving discussion." I'm not consciously thinking anything at all other than "DANG this is a good/bad/mediocre book!" And until I hit a chapter break, nothing really exists except the novel's world.
I don't really know which is better, or which is a "deeper" way of reading. I get two different but two really great experiences out of both. Does anyone have such discordant experiences? If they do differ, which do you prefer?
EDIT: Dang it did I put a typo not only in the subject but in quotes, thus obviously pointing out the typo to everyone? I did? Double dang.