Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Additions to Librarian Manual
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Added to the Manual: Author Sort fields
Would this be correct for Afonso d'Escragnolle Taunay?sort by field: escragnolle taunay, afonso d'
shelf display field: d'Escragnolle Taunay, Afonso
Mod
I'm sorry you chose the shelf display incorrectly asDubus III, Andre
Smith Jr., John
There could be many Dubus or many Smiths. He is not the third Dubus, but the third Andre. Jrs aren't Smith Jrs., but John Jrs.
ETA: But thank you for adding this to the manual. Even if it's wrong, at least everyone will be wrong the same way.
Mod
rivka wrote: "Elizabeth, we had quite an internal debate on both how to sort and how to display authors with generational suffixes. We settled on a sort that should make most librarians happy, but a display we t..."I can imagine you did have such a discussion and it's not that I don't appreciate it. I am appreciative of the time and effort that went into this, and that we will all do things the same way. (I have corrected the entries I made that I think were correct, but are contrary to policy.) I'm just very very sorry that we continue to look as if we didn't know the correct way to display these names. I think most readers are more than capable of learning what is correct, even if it seems a bit foreign at first blush.
rivka wrote: "I find French names with prefixes confusing, but I think that's correct."Not so sure about that. Latin languages family names with prefixes are not so easy to list. Can't assure it, but to me it would be
shelf display field: Escragnolle Taunay, Afonso d'
Following with Koenraad question, an example in Spanish (fictional name) would be:
Olga de la Fuente Sotogrande
sort by field: fuente sotogrande, olga de la
shelf display field:
because you'll never find that 'shelf display' type of listing on a phonebook or anywhere because it messes up all the listing thing. Everybody is gonna look for someone with that surname at the F, never at de D. What you'll find is the 'sort by field' type:
Fuente Sotogrande, Olga de la
And it only applies to the first family name, not to the second one, so someone called:
Olga Sotogrande de la Fuente
will be listed as
Sotogrande de la Fuente, Olga
Also, I'm not sure where to place some German and Dutch names' prefixes like von, van, der, etc. on a shelf display field or sort by field. Should it be
Rafael Ferdinand van der Vaart
sort by field: vaart, rafael ferdinand, van der
shelf display field: van der Vaart, Rafael Ferdinand?
or
Rafael Ferdinand van der Vaart
sort by field: vaart, van der, rafael ferdinand
shelf display field: Vaart, van der, Rafael Ferdinand?
Koenraad wrote: "Would this be correct for Afonso d'Escragnolle Taunay?sort by field: escragnolle taunay, afonso d'
shelf display field: d'Escragnolle Taunay, Afonso"
Here is the WorldCat Identities entry for this author:
http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lc...
It seems reasonable that we should use this resource when it doesn't absolutely conflict with written policy. All of the possibilities for sorting appear, but a preference exists.
The surname is d'Escragnolle Taunay or simply Taunay, for Alfonso and also for his father Alfredo. The entry on WorldCat for Alfonso looks like a part of the family name has been taken as a middle name, something that occurs frecuently with not hyphenated multi-part surnames. That's the entry for the father: http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lc...Both father and son are Alfredo/Alfonso d'Escragnolle Taunay or Alfredo/Alfonso Taunay:
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afonso_...
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo...
But whatever you decide as stardard is what will be used.
And yep, I know it's the Wiki, but it serves the purpose of seeing the name on the native language.
Gaia wrote: "Also, I'm not sure where to place some German and Dutch names' prefixes like von, van, der, etc. on a shelf display field or sort by field. Should it beRafael Ferdinand van der Vaart
sort by field: vaart, rafael ferdinand, van der
shelf display field: van der Vaart, Rafael Ferdinand?
or
Rafael Ferdinand van der Vaart
sort by field: vaart, van der, rafael ferdinand
shelf display field: Vaart, van der, Rafael Ferdinand? "
Dutch:
Rafael Ferdinand van der Vaart
should be displayed as
Vaart, Rafael Ferdinand van der
Flemish:
Rafael Ferdinand Van der Vaart
should be displayed as
Van der Vaart, Rafael Ferdinand
German:
Ludwig van Beethoven
should be displayed as
Beethoven, Ludwig van (ETA Oops, von should be van, of course. But the same goes for names with von)
Manuel Auf der Maur
should be displayed as
Auf der Maur, Manuel
Rule of thumb: if a prefix begins with a lower-case letter the sort should be on the last name. If a prefix begins with a capital letter, it should be sorted on that.
I understand though that there are English-language author names whose prefixes start with a lower case letter, but should still be sorted on the prefix. (Argh.)
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I'm just very very sorry that we continue to look as if we didn't know the correct way to display these names."But at least they are sorted correctly, not as in the example I gave in the other thread. And as I said earlier, to my eyes the generational suffix looks more logical after the last name.
What I am surprised about though, is the choice to sort on title and not on name (pope instead of francis, etc.). Looks very odd to me.
Am I right in thinking that only in the case of generational suffixes the sort by name and shelf display name will be different?
lethe wrote: "And as I said earlier, to my eyes the generational suffix looks more logical after the last name."The suffix is to give clarity to the question:
which John Smith? It's John Jr.
Otherwise we would be seeing all of John Smith's sons called Jr. They are not. Only his son, John, is a Jr.
lethe wrote: "Am I right in thinking that only in the case of generational suffixes the sort by name and shelf display name will be different?"I think that names with non-English characters sort and display differently.
Because of discussions on this subject in another thread, I believe I have marked némirovsky, irene to sort as nemirovsky, irene, so that she will sort with as ne (with the other names beginning Ne) rather than né (at the end of the N names). Shouldn't we follow the same thinking as we do with
Authors whose last names contain a special character over the first letter are treated differently. The special character should be excluded from the sort by field:
capek, karel
In the shelf display field, the special character should be included:
Čapek, Karel
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Because of discussions on this subject in another thread, I believe I have marked némirovsky, irene to sort as nemirovsky, irene, so that she will sort with as ne (with the other names beginning Ne) rather than né (at the end of the N names). "Yes, I did. I'm reluctant to change it back, but will if it is decided we'll only look at sorting on first letter.
lethe wrote: "What I am surprised about though, is the choice to sort on title and not on name (pope instead of francis, etc.). Looks very odd to me."Does that mean that saints are sorted on Saint too?
lethe wrote: "lethe wrote: "Does that mean that saints are sorted on Saint too? "Or St.?
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Yes, I did. I'm reluctant to change it back, but will if it is decided we'll only look at sorting on first letter."It is in the manual now:
Special characters should also be added to both the sort by field and shelf display field:
némirovsky, irene
garcía márquez, gabriel
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "lethe wrote: "lethe wrote: "Does that mean that saints are sorted on Saint too? "Or St.?"
Oh, I hope not. Very confusing with all the last names starting with St.
(I looked it up in my book, saints, like popes, are sorted on name in library land.)
lethe wrote: "It is in the manual now:Special characters should also be added to both the sort by field and shelf display field:"
Yes, I know. I just wanted to appeal the thinking, since this will make the sort in the wrong place. At least I think it's wrong. She will appear after any Nu authors and not where people would look for her I think.
We got so much more than we thought we would on this feature, and I am thrilled. But it's early yet - maybe not everything is cast in stone. If it is cast in stone, I'll cease the public grumbling.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "lethe wrote: "Am I right in thinking that only in the case of generational suffixes the sort by name and shelf display name will be different?"I think that names with non-English characters sort and display differently."
Ah, yes, if the first letter has an accent.
But more precisely, I meant: the order of the different parts of the name.
lethe wrote: "But more precisely, I meant: the order of the different parts of the name. "If post #2 is correct, which subsequent discussion says it is, then there are other instances where sort by and display will be different.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "She will appear after any Nu authors and not where people would look for her I think."Yes, I'd think so too. But did you see (in the other thread, I think it was) somebody's post on how in different languages the special characters are sorted differently, and sometimes even in one language, depending on the publication?
I think it will be impossible to do right by everybody/every language.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "If post #2 is correct, which subsequent discussion says it is..."No, it isn't/doesn't. Gaia is right, the d' should come last if it is attached to the last name. And post #10 says that in this example, it should be
Taunay, Alfonso d'Escragnolle
lethe wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "She will appear after any Nu authors and not where people would look for her I think."Yes, I'd think so too. But did you see (in the other thread, I think it was) someb..."
Yes, that's where I saw that Némirovsky sorts at the end of the N names. And yes, I agree that it will be impossible to satisfy everyone. The first letter in Čapek, Karel isn't a C either (I don't what that letter is in Czech nor where it would sort in it's own language), but those not familiar with the language would be looking for it there.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "lethe wrote: "But more precisely, I meant: the order of the different parts of the name. "If post #2 is correct, which subsequent discussion says it is, then there are other instances where sort ..."
Rivka thinks is correct, I think it's not. To me "sort by field" and "shelf display field" on #2 should be the same except for the caps.
If not, they have to be reached on the first letter of the prefix.... and then I predict an enormous increase on the letter D with the addition of all the D', d', de, De, Di, Du, del, Del, di, Della, Dello,etc.
lethe wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "If post #2 is correct, which subsequent discussion says it is..."No, it isn't/doesn't. Gaia is right, the d' should come last if it is attached to the last name. And po..."
Well, that's what I posted in #9, but I read Gaia's post to say I was incorrect.
Elizabet, not you, WorldCat displays differently father and son names, has no sense.#10 means:
Afonso d'Escragnolle Taunay
sort by field: escragnolle taunay, afonso d'
shelf display field: Escragnolle Taunay, Afonso d'
or
Afonso Taunay
sort by field: taunay, afonso
shelf display field: Taunay, Afonso
but not a mix of both (see links to wiki in Portuguese on #10).
There is a typo in the new librarian manual:The sort by names should be entered in lower case, or will be corrected to lowercase when the page is saved:
brockmann, suzanne
The shelf display field should be entered with correct capitalization:
Brockman, Suzanne
Her surname should end in nn
Gaia wrote: "Elizabet, not you, WorldCat displays differently father and son names, has no sense."I was looking at the primary entry in the link I provided, not the multi-entries in the right-side column. As there is only one primary entry, I thought that would be the one to choose. Am I incorrect in my thinking?
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Well, that's what I posted in #9, but I read Gaia's post to say I was incorrect. "I don't think she meant that, only that Worldcat isn't always right. She linked to the father's page, which mistakenly quotes 'Taunay Taunay'.
(The best source for names are the national libraries, or indeed Wikipedia in the correct language.)
-- Right, it's after 11, time to log off for me :-)
Gaia wrote: "To me "sort by field" and "shelf display field" on #2 should be the same except for the caps.If not, they have to be reached on the first letter of the prefix.... and then I predict an enormous increase on the letter D with the addition of all the D', d', de, De, Di, Du, del, Del, di, Della, Dello,etc."
Absolutely agree (except that in Italian, sort should be on capitalized prefixes).
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I was looking at the primary entry in the link I provided, not the multi-entries in the right-sid..."Not to me, but your primary entry for Afonso http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lc... and the primary one for his father, Alfredo http://www.worldcat.org/identities/lc... are showing some inconsistencies, the first one the use of the apostrophe, so, to me is not a valid source when is not even capable to match father and son surname.
lethe wrote: "Absolutely agree (except that in Italian, sort should be on capitalized prefixes)."So, Marco Di Luccia, for example, should be under Di? I would put it under Luccia, Marco Di.
Also nearly half past eleven to me. Good night ladies!
Mod
Fixed. Thanks!
Marco Di Luccia should be Di Luccia, MarcoSo, I didn't get the part about special characters in the sort by field.
I thought the new display addition was to solve this problem.
Currently Irène Némirovsky has "nemirovsky" (NO accent) in the sort by name field and it DOES sort correctly.
Why change it to "némirovsky"?
Gaia wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I was looking at the primary entry in the link I provided, not the multi-entries in the right-sid..."Not to me, but your pimary entry for Afonso http://www.worldcat.or..."
Ah, yes. I was looking only that they both sort as Taunay, not d'Escragnolle.
Is there a limit for the no. of characters in the "shelf display name" field? Author Hans Jakob Christoffel von Grimmelshausen doesn't fit and on my books appears as "Grimmelshausen, Hans Jakob Chri".Please increase the limit if possible
Moloch wrote: "Currently Irène Némirovsky has "nemirovsky" (NO accent) in the sort by name field and it DOES sort correctly. Why change it to "némirovsky"? "I made that entry early, before we had the display field, and before we had manual direction. If we are absolutely to follow current manual direction (and there is no re-thinking), I will change it back, or Rivka will, or ...
Mod
Yes, and unfortunately, that can't be changed.
Could I ask for an official word (and perhaps a tiny wording clarification) on how to treat letters such as the Swedish ÅÄÖ, Norwegian Ø, Latvian Ā etc? These are not diacritics - Swedish does have diacritics (ü, é) but åäö are simply extra letters. The current wording about "special characters" when they occur first in the author name, will probably leave most Swedes either scratching their heads, or assuming it doesn't apply unless the name starts with É, which would be a very eccentric spelling.
And if it does apply, and I'm assuming it does, what do we substitute them with? Again with assumptions, I suppose you want åäö -> aao, to get a sort order natural for English (although it'll look quite mad in Swedish.) But unless you say so, most swedes would substitute with aa, ae, and oe, (if they substitute at all, which most won't) which would have a similar but not quite exactly the same effect.
At this point, I'm just glad that the majority of Swedish names begin with letters that exist in English, but if you'd like some examples to twiddle with:
Sonja Åkesson
Østergaard, Gudrun
Örnólfur Árnason
Östman, Kim
Steingrímur J. Þorsteinsson
(Actually those turned out harder to find than I'd have thought, so you got a two Swedes, a Dane and a couple of Icelandic authors :)
Please fix this GR Author: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...sort: wu ming
display: Wu Ming
Thanks
Mod
How would Swedes sort such names?
Mod
Please limit this thread to discussions of the Manual entry.
(At least for now, I am not taking on any editing of Goodreads Author Program sort fields. The authors themselves are welcome to do so, of course.)
The Swedish alphabet is the same A-V, then goes (no W, they are sorted with V) XYZÅÄÖ.Finnish, Danish and Norwegian do the same. Icelandic has it's own completely other order (but then, they have ten more letters than English, we only have three :)
Mod
Is that a thorn? We got rid of those in English centuries back. What would its closest English-letter correspondence even be? "th", maybe?
Mod
That's . . . . huh. I have no idea how we should deal with those.
Adding it to the list of things to be discussed next week.
Yup, that is thorn, it's the soft th sound (as in 'thick' vs the eth ð th which is the one in 'the' but Wikipedia says that one never occurs in names). Þ sorts after Z in Icelandic (and the Á in Árnason just to really mess things up, sorts separately after A)
I should mention, Scandinavians are a tolerant lot. Most people are used to not getting "correct" sorting in English, as long as it's consistently applied so we know where to look, we'll figure it out. So if you can't do it, we will briefly make sad kitten faces and move right along.What gets confusing though is if all the Åkessons that have been edited show up in one place (say with the A's, because a substitution was performed), and all the ones that haven't turn up grouped together somewhere else (say after Z).
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