10/06/15 - Chapter 7: Catelyn I

[Clara]

I have an exam tomorrow, so I'll comment later.

[Clara]

1-I think it can be seen as an analogy how heavy the crown is for Robb. I like it's made of bronze and iron, and not of gold.

2-Ser Cleos Frey is sent to deliver a message of peace for Cersei. He's Ser Lady Genna's son, sister of Tywin. I forgot he had a sister. Robb tells Frey he is still a captive, and should deliver the message and get back. I think it's hard to hope someone would go back voluntarily to be a prisoner, so maybe that's why Robb scared him with Grey Wind.

3-Clearly Lord Karkstark does not want peace at all, and I understand why. But I also understand why Robb wants to propose peace, even if it's such an impossible one. The terms among other are to release both Stark girls and he'll release Cersei's cousins. He wants Ned and his men's bones to go to Winterfell, where they belong. He also wants Ice back. And what I think it's the thing Cersei would never agree on, is to get all the captives back, except for Jaime. I can see why Robb would want to keep Jaime so Tywin won't try anything, but she'll never agree, and he knows that.

4-Meanwhile, Catelyn thinks it's her fault Ned is dead. She insisted him to go and be Robert's Hand. I feel so bad for her! I understand why she feels like that, and I can't imagine what it's like to be in her position.

5-Another condition is the North to be a Kingdom apart from the others, another thing the Queen won't agree with. Robb also wants 10 highborn hostages, who he'd be releasing every two years. If Cersei doesn't accept, he'll giver her another Whispering Wood. I wonder why he proposed such and unrealistic peace. He knows she won't accept it I think.

6-Edmure thinks like Lord Karkstark, and wants no peace. Is it mention how old he is? I know he's younger than Catelyn though. Anyway, he asked Robb to let the river lords leave to defend their lands and people. I understand why they would want that, but they are all dispersed now, and I don't think it's a good idea. War is so hard!

7-Robb wants vengence no less than Karkstark. I can't imagine how hard it is to be a King, and being one at 15 even less. He can't please everybody, but he needs them all.

8-Catelyn found Kings do not listen like sons. I think I never stopped thinking how hard this must be for her as well. Grieving Ned and trying to keep alive her children, and fearing for Robb everytime he goes to a battle. I don't think I noticed how strong she is the first time I read the series.

9-Catelyn told the obvious, Cersei won't agree to a peace like that. RObb tells her he won't free Jaime Lannister for his sisters. And this must be so hard for him! But looking at it from a war point, the Kingslayer is not worth two girls. They might have traded him for Ned, but they can't do so anymore. I think Catelyn is extremely hurt, and that's why she asked Robb is his sisters aren't worth it just because they are girls. I think she knows Robb is right, but of course she wants her daughters at any costs. This is so hard and so sad. She hurt Robb, and she knows it.

10-Robb wants her away, and tries to sent her to different places. Catelyn, perceptive as she is, knows he doesn't want her near. She tells him things he does not want to hear, but in my opinion most of them are good advise, and he needs her words. But nobody likes being told hard trues, Kings even less.

11-Robb is sending Theon with Mallister, and Catelyn tells him not to trust Theon. She thinks Theon's father will probably want to wear a crown again, but Robb does not care he is King of his lands, as long as he helps to bring the Lannisters down.

12-It made me happy to see Brynden with her father, even if he can't tell his brother is there. The Blackfish seems to be really important in Robb's campaign. He's Robb's eyes and ears. Her father is really bad, and talks nonsense, which is never a good sign.

13-I really liked when she talks about how despite quarrels, they have a deep bond. I wish they had told each other how they felt.

14-Another mention of the comet, this description tells it seems like blood smeared across the sky. It's a really haunting description.

15-Beric Dondarrion is fighting agains Tywin again, attacking little parties. An interesting thing is some swear Lord Beric was slain in one of the fights, but he was seen after this slain.

16-The Blackfish tells Catelyn it was a mistake to let the lords go back to their lands. I wonder what would Robb have done of Brynden was there to tell him not to let them go.

17-The Mountain, who we know by now is a fucking monster, kill Darry, the boy who was there representing his family when they named Robb King in the North. He was the last of his line. It makes me sadder he was so young. The Mountain does not care about gold, only cares about killing, and that makes him very dangerous. You can't buy him.

18-Everytime Catelyn thinks about Ned it makes me sad. It's hard for her to think he's gone for good. Sometimes she thinks he'll be there next to her in bed, and when I read it it made me want to cry.

19-Catelyn thinks Tywin is the true danger, and I agree. He wants to provoke battle, and it seems he's gonna make it happen.

20-Tywin has bought some men, and he has Armory Lorch, and a man "who’d sooner maim a man than kill him" from Qohor. I know who he is this time.

21-It seems Tywin's plan is working, Robb wants to march on Harrenhal. The story of this place was really interesting to read, and in my head it would be like one of those hunting places you see in pictures. Also, what bad luck the day the castle was finished was the day Aemon got there. "The walls were of small use for dragons".

22-Another army is gathering at Casterly Rock. The Lannister really show they are the richest family in the realm.

23-Brynden knows Tywin is not like Jaime, he will wait. Unless he's forced to leave. Catelyn came up with this idea of having Renly on their side. She is really smart, and she knows what she has to give Renly to use him against Tywin: homage.

[Vicki]

I'm sorry I didn't get to type this yesterday, I was SUPER busy this whole week!

1. It's interesting to me that RObb has a brand new crown freshly forged. It's a shame what happened to the Stark crown, lost over 300 years ago when it was yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. I hope Aegon didn't destroy it! No one knows what he did with it. In The World of Ice and Fire, I gathered it was a private conversation between Aegon and Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt. It sounds like the North posed just as difficult to obtain as Dorne, but unlike Dorne, Torrhen mysteriously agreed to kneel, despite having a strong host behind his back. I don't think his men knew why he knelt. But I guess it was wise of him; dragons "fly." A part of me wonders if Torrhen had a vision that a Stark would one day rule all 7 Kingdoms, but only if they became lords for several centuries. Dunno. It is said that Torrhen was highly regarded and not seen as a coward; they named a town after him: Torrhen's Square, and Barrowton is named because that's supposedly where Torrhen is buried. Curious he's not buried in Winterfell. I'm just throwing that out there! Might be far fetched. More likely he simply was wise enough to realize that having a huge army and a good natural defense against the rest of Westeros is not enough compared to someone with three fire-breathing dragons.

2. Ser Cleos Frey doesn't look like a lion. He is part lion on his mother's side, being a son of Genna Frey, who is Tywin's sister. He looks every bit a Frey, but they call him Lannister because he chose to fight with the Lannisters rather than the Freys. He is temporarily set free to deliver a message to his cousin, Cersei Lannister, of his terms for peace. Among them he wants his sisters back, his father's bones and all of his servants who died in King's Landing with him, he wants his father's greatsword, Ice, and prisoners of war, in return he would return a few cousins here and there, and to recognize that the North and the Riverlands are a separate kingdom from here on out, and overall he can't hope to expect Cersei to agree to these terms because Robb refuses to give up Jaime Lannister. I wonder what would have happened if he DID offer him up. I bet Cersei would be much more willing to give him a lot more for him. But Robb is just being overly cautious. After he delivers the message Robb expects Ser Cleos to return back into captivity and makes him promise in front of everyone that he will return. Robb can't possibly expect him to honor his word! He is part Frey, part Lannister!

3. It's sad that Cat feels it's her fault Ned went south to his death. She knew he knew he belonged in Winterfell, but she urged him to go anyway. :( She was fooled!

4. Cat doesn't like Theon's sly smile. I wonder what's up.

5. Robb's terms are already asking for too much with so little for Cersei to gain, and then he also adds he wants ten hostages, promising to return two of them each year for every year the Lannisters behave! He can't seriously expect Cersei to agree to these terms?

6. That was a bit over-dramatic, with the loud chanting/cheering and Grey Wind howling, lol.

7. Cat later reminds Robb that Lord Karstark is not happy with peace, nor is Edmure Tully, who wants vengeance still. Robb admits they lack men to continue fighting. Cat approves of setting up terms for peace, but she knows what Cersei really wants is Jaime, and Robb will NOT let the Kingslayer go, no matter how much Cat tries to talk sense into him. RObb won't even let him go to get his sisters back. Which I think is harsh. He would have been willing to trade for Eddard Stark but his sisters aren't as important? Important for whom, Robb, or his people? I seriously doubt his people care two shits for Robb's sisters. It's Eddard Stark they wanted. And Robb is really starting to sound like his men. He's even starting to treat his mother differently, and she can tell. This is sad: "...Catelyn was finding that kings do not listen half so attentively as sons."

8. Wow, Robb is really firm against giving Jaime up! She says who cares if Robb's lords bannermen won't want him as king anymore if he gives the Kingslayer up for his sisters. And I agree. Why is being king more important than family? Let someone else be king, then! But I think Robb is full of pride. I wonder what Ned would do in Robb's shoes. The Tully's value family above all other things. Their words are: "Family. Duty. Honor." But it seems Robb would rather be king than have his sisters back home safe and sound. The worst part is that half his lords bannermen want Jaime dead, which would do Robb no good at all, resulting in the death of his sisters. It seems no matter what Robb chooses he's disappointing someone.

9. Poor Edmure Tully was only trying to support Robb but ends up pissing RObb off when he called him 'boy.' Hmm... Grey Wind is getting angry too.

10. Her voice was icy quiet. "Girls are not important enough, are they?"

--At least he looks hurt when she says this. He should feel bad! I know it's an overall shitty situation all around, but I have to side with Cat on this. Robb is being too stubborn. Or maybe I'm biased because I know what happens later...who knows. I'm just glad I don't have to face hard decisions like this!

11. Now we find out why Theon is so happy: Robb is setting him free to treat with his father so Balon Greyjoy can join forces with Robb to fight the Lannisters. Of course Cat thinks this is a bad idea. She thinks he can get Balon Greyjoy to do this with Theon by Robb's side, but Robb doesn't see it that way. I think a part of him feels bad for his "friend" and wants him to no longer be a hostage. But it seems he's forgotten why he's a hostage; Balon Greyjoy led a rebellion in the past. What's to stop him from trying to be king again? But Robb says who cares if Balon is King of the Iron Islands, as long as he helps him destroy the Lannisters, he doesn't care. Oh Robb... :(

12. Now Robb doesn't want his mother there anymore. He's fed up with her advice. I thought she was rather smart, but it seems he doesn't want to hear it anymore and doesn't know how to straight up tell her to leave. He even tells her he can command it of her; he could, as king. What an ass. Cat refuses to leave her father's side, though.

13. I like that the leaves on the trees in the godswood are "ignorant" of the white raven's message. :) Autumn sounds so frightening in this world! I suppose it was scary back in our time too, before electricity and stuff. You never know if this winter will be your last.

14. Cat visits her father and sees the Blackfish is already there, visiting him in his sleep. Awe. :) Even though they've had their differences, they're still brothers and care about each other, even though Hoster Tully probably doesn't know Brynden is there.

15. I wonder what kind of regrets Hoster Tully has? And who was Catelyn's mother? She apparently looks like her.

16. Brynden Tully's men call the comet "the Red Messenger." He wonders what the message is. So do I! Cat says the northmen say the comet was sent by the gods as a sign of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it's an omen of victory for Riverrun, since it kind of looks like a fish with a red tail on a blue sky, the Tully colors. But she says red is a Lannister color. It means something different for everyone. Spooky what Brynden says: it's not crimson nor Tully red; it's blood red, "...smeared across the sky." Cat wonders whose blood, and Brynden says both sides of the war bleeds.

17. Ha! Brynden says Beric Dondarrion's been raiding the raiders. Attacking Lord Tywin's foraging parties and disappearing before they can get at them. Some swear they killed Beric, but he keeps coming back. Cat says some of his men are Stark men. I can't even recall who all went...it's in another notebook. She hopes they're all okay.

18. The Blackfish thinks Robb should never have let the Tully lords bannermen split up to take care of their lands. Now they've weakened themselves, spreading out too thin. Darry men were slaughtered completely, including their little lord, the last in their line. That sucks. Gregor Clegane did that. He could have made a lot of money if he had ransomed the boy, but he doesn't care about gold. He just loves the slaughter. What a monster!

19. Cat believes Tywin is the true danger. I agree. Even though Harrenhal is supposed to belong to the Slynts now, Tyuwin took up residence anyway, lol; then again, it is smack dab in the middle of a war zone. They discuss how despicable Tywin's men are, raping and mutilating and leaving corpses out for animals to eat. The Blackfish says Tywin's doing this to provoke RObb and his men to attack him. I do believe that was his intent. Cat is afraid Robb and his men will take the bait. Brynden says his first rule of war is never give the enemy his wish. Smart man, though that could mean even Brynden Tully agrees Robb should never give up Jaime Lannister.

20. So 300 years ago Harrenhal was built by Harren the Black, a tyrant from the Iron Islands who had control over the Riverlands for some time. He built the grandest castle that took 40 years of slavery and plundering to build, and on the day it was finished, Aegon the Conqueror landed on Westeros, ha! Harren hadn't taken into account that dragons can fly. And blow fire. When Harren refused to treat with Aegon, Aegon had Harren and all his men cooked to death inside their castle. Since then Harrenhal is supposedly a cursed place.

21. The Lannisters are a huge family! Lots of cousins, nieces and nephews. Ser Stafford Lannister is gathering an army at Casterly Rock. Ser Stafford is Joanna Lannister's brother, and cousin to Tywin, because Tywin married his cousin...because that's okay, but not your sister, your aunt or your niece...weird. However, he's got to train boys from the Westerlands first, so they have some time before they have to deal with them. I can see a potential problem for Robb Stark and his men, though, if they don't do anything about this soon; they'll be sandwiched!

22. Lord Tywin is patient, unlike Jaime, so he won't be in a hurry to leave Harrenhal. He'll wait for his cousin to raise the second half of the Lannister army before doing anything. Unless, Catelyn says, he is forced to leave to face some other threat. I love how her uncle understands where she's going with this. These two are the smartest in Robb's army, and he wants one of them gone! The Blackfish finishes her train of thought: Renly. So they're going to see if they can team up with King Renly to take down the Lannisters. Should be interesting. :)

[Clara]

I do think his sisters are not worth a trade for Jaime, seeing this like people and their war value. Jaime is a great fighter, and Robb's sisters can't fight. I think the decision was good, imagine what the people would have said if he trade the Kingslayer, almost if not a legend by now, for two girls. And not even two, because they don't have Arya. I understand why he did it, and I understand why Catelyn is upset about his choice. They are both right in their own way, but they are in war, and they have to remember that, even if it's so hard.

I don't think he is desperate to be King, but he was put in that position, an it's his duty to be the man they made him be. And again, it sounds harsh, but he'd be trading a girl for one of the best fighters in the Kingdom.

[Vicki]

Well he wouldn't have ONLY asked for his sisters if he traded Jaime away. He probably could have gotten Ice back, his father's bones, all their prisoners of war, and maybe even a separate kingdom, if he had simply given away Jaime.

[Clara]

Yeah, but I don't know. He was asking for a lot of things, and I don't believe his bannermen would agree to free Jaime, even if they got all the other things. And Lord Karkstark and Edmure did not agree with making peace. Anyway, it's always hard to know what is right and wrong in this situations, and sometimes both sides have good points, like in this case.

[Certo]

Well, from what I've read in this Chapter it all comes down to POLITICS. Robb's Sisters are really not good enough to Trade the Kingslayer (Jaime Lannister)for. Think about it. If you were a king and you have a dangerous enemy that is skilled in Warfare and is the son of a great house whom, by the way, are very influential in the Southern Part of Westeros, and is also Feared by the likes of the Powerful House Tyrell. Well you wouldn't want him back in the Field, where he can wreak havoc with an army and at the same time strengthen their house's influence. It is much better to contain him and at the same time have some form of Influence on House Lannister. That way King Robb will be able to deduce House Lannisters' plans and limit their movement with the threat for the life of one of their own blood.

[Certo]

Clara wrote: "I do think his sisters are not worth a trade for Jaime, seeing this like people and their war value. Jaime is a great fighter, and Robb's sisters can't fight. I think the decision was good, imagine..."

Yeah I don't believe that will happen even if its Jaime Lannister we're talking about here. Because for the Following reasons;

1. At the end of the first book it hints that Westeros was divided. (Sorry, I had to say this for justification)

2. In a divided kingdom I doubt that the other Kings shall recognized the Agreement of Division. (In the end of Catelyn's Chapter)

[Clara]

It is a really complicated situation and Robb is in a position where he can't please everyone. But even if I do want the girls to be with their family again, seeing this again from the point of view of how much they are worth in the war, I have to agree with Robb. And it must not be easy for him to make so much choices, and such hard ones as well.
And I also think the Lannisters wouldn't accept to lose such a big part of the realm.

[Vicki]

I agree it is a very complicated situation. I would not want to be Robb! The first time I read this I was on Robb's side, and I admit I am being biased in my second reading a bit.

[Clara]

It is really hard! And I think both Robb and Catelyn have a point. And I honestly don't know what I would do in Robb's situation. I don't remember what I thought the first time I read it, but now I am trying to see things more objectively, so that's why I'm in Robb's side. And why a lot of my opinions are changing, but it's so hard to try to think like that, and not let the feeling get in thw way, knowing what Sansa is going and will go through!