A Harlot High and Low - Part Three - The Difficulty in Committing Suicide in Prison - Part Four - A Singular Criminal Trial

[Deborah, Moderator]

This week's discussion starts on Tuesday. It runs from The Difficulty of Committing Suicide in Prison thru Part 4, A Singular Criminal Trial. Pages 400 - 470.

The last sentence:

He shrank from any encounter which could have brought him face to face with a fanandel who might have demanded accounts which the dab would have found it impossible to furnish.

[Deborah, Moderator]

This week we spent our time in prison. Justice doesn't seem to reign there either. Lucien shows a sense of morality in choosing to kill himself due to betraying Carlos. Irony abounds - Esther kills herself before inheriting; Lucien kills himself before being set free.

1. Why does Carlos have so much power even in jail?

2. Why does the plan to identify him not work?

3. Does Carlos truly feel love for Lucien?

[Frances, Moderator]

Well, Deborah, is it down to you and me? I am feeling really bogged down by this novel (and was considering dropping it except I nominated it this time around) so last night I finished this section.

First, with the death of both Esther and Lucien it feels as if the main gist of the novel is completed-as Collin/Herera was never a focal point for me I found the switch to him at the centre of the novel to be quite jarring.

Second, I find the style to be quite disjointed-there will be some plot development and then a pause for a long explanation about politics or prison life or to introduce new characters -for example we get what seems like far to much information about the 3 prisoners who are supposed to identify Collin.

Third-what's with all the aliases? Can't Balzac just give one name to a character and stick with it?

Anyway-I think Carlos maintains his power (and therefore is not identified) in jail because the other prisoners still believe/hope he has their ill-gotten gains hidden away somewhere and will be able to give them back to them when they are all released.

I am now, for the first time, getting a sense that Carlos loved Lucien and previously Theodore Calvi erotically-he may not even have admitted it to himself but his apparent willingness to risk so much for a beautiful young man raises that possibility. At one point he muses to himself

"Another day and Lucien would have been rich! He'd have married his Clotilde de Grandlieu. I no longer had Esther on my hands. Lucien loved that wench too much, whereas he'd never have loved the drowning man's plank, that Clotilde...Ah, then the child would have been mine altogether!

Which suggests that possibly he was jealous of Lucien's love for Esther.

[Amy]

I finished the book a few weeks ago, but I remember not liking the prisoners speaking in lingo at all.
I think Carlos has power in prison because he has gotten away with all his terrible crimes. And also because he's so sure he can save his old chain gang mate. I think Carlos really did love Lucien, which was sweet. I agree he must have been jealous of Esther.

[Frances, Moderator]

O good, Amy, I was starting to feel badly about nominating this book!

I don't know if anyone has read any more Balzac (I remember reading Le Pere Goriot in high school french) but this hasn't spurred me to read any more of his La Comedie Humaine series. I also tried the Zola series with this group earlier but gave up on that pretty early on as well. Anyone think I should try another novel by either author?

[Deborah, Moderator]

Frances wrote: "Well, Deborah, is it down to you and me? I am feeling really bogged down by this novel (and was considering dropping it except I nominated it this time around) so last night I finished this section..."

Frances, it's okay. I'm having the same issues that you have with this book. It's been a slog for me. Still, it's part of the moderating job so I'm okay with it. :)

[Deborah, Moderator]

Frances wrote: "O good, Amy, I was starting to feel badly about nominating this book!

I don't know if anyone has read any more Balzac (I remember reading Le Pere Goriot in high school french) but ..."

As this is my first Balzac and I've only read one Zola, I'm afraid I can't help.

[Linda]

Sorry everyone. I'm still carrying my book around, but have not made much progress since week 3. The longer I go without picking it up, the harder I find to want to try getting back into it. I think the last time I started a book and didn't finish it was at least a few years ago, so I really didn't expect this to happen.

And Frances, don't feel bad for nominating the book. People vote for the book they want to read regardless of who nominates it. This was also my first Balzac and I didn't really know what to expect, but the synopsis sounded really good.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Linda wrote: "Sorry everyone. I'm still carrying my book around, but have not made much progress since week 3. The longer I go without picking it up, the harder I find to want to try getting back into it. I thin..."

I'll fess up. If I wasn't leading the discussion, I would have quit. I'm looking forward to when it's done. No guilt needed. How many times have you read a blurb of the book, couldn't wait to read it, only to be disappointed. It happens. I can't decide if Bazac just isn't my cup of tea or it's just this book. Either way, no harm no foul.

[Amy]

I read Old Goriot and loved it. This one, not so much.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Amy wrote: "I read Old Goriot and loved it. This one, not so much."

Good to know.

[Frances, Moderator]

This one feels like it needed a really good editor.

[Robin P, Moderator]

I'm still plugging away but just got up to this section. I even washed dishes rather than read it. My excuse is that it's harder for me since I'm reading it in French, but that's not really it. I think Goriot was much more interesting, fewer extraneous characters and a more straightforward narrative. It seems like this is just one installment, the way there are little references to previous books. It's kind of like starting to watch a TV series in the middle.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Robin wrote: "I'm still plugging away but just got up to this section. I even washed dishes rather than read it. My excuse is that it's harder for me since I'm reading it in French, but that's not really it. I t..."

I'm proud of you for continuing.

[Robin P, Moderator]

The title seems like it was used to attract sales. It really isn't about the life of a courtesan. I seem to remember that Balzac was always in debt and wrote at a furious pace to keep up. Maybe he inflated his word count by adding the sections on justice or other asides. He definitely cheats by reprinting Lucien's letter when Carlos reads it. The most interesting part so far in this section is the wife who tells her husband how to prosecute his case and how to ingratiate himself with the higherups.

Bottom line is there is a reason why this is a lesser-read work.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Robin wrote: "The title seems like it was used to attract sales. It really isn't about the life of a courtesan. I seem to remember that Balzac was always in debt and wrote at a furious pace to keep up. Maybe he ..."

Agreed

[Frances, Moderator]

Or it was about the highs and lows of this particular courtesan's life, and then he went way off track with the criminal/political/judicial tangent (which was also a much less interesting plot, IMHO). Perhaps difficulty in obtaining a book should be a group tip off that it might not be worth reading :)

[Robin P, Moderator]

I've officially given up, so many other things I'd rather read. I don't think this is representative of Balzac, so now that I have the complete works I'll probably try something else sometime. Same with Zola, we started with some of the lesser works and I think people got tired of him, but he does have some powerful and memorable books.

[Frances, Moderator]

I completely understand-I was pretty close to giving up and would have done so if I hadn't nominated the book. Free yourself to join us in the November read or for the Dickensian interlude!

[Deborah, Moderator]

Frances wrote: "I completely understand-I was pretty close to giving up and would have done so if I hadn't nominated the book. Free yourself to join us in the November read or for the Dickensian interlude!"

I would have given up too if I hadn't been leading the discussion. Robin you gave it a good go