City of Fallen Angels
discussion
Why I don't like Clary Fray
Yassss! I so agree with this! Clary is my least favorite character, and then it's Jace. I even made a whole discussion about this called, "For people who hate Clary and Jace." I think it was on City of Heavenly Fire...
Veronica wrote: "i am not a fan of calry. to use my favourite expression,"clary is half shade better than bella swan" she is too obsessed with jace that i am unable to differentiate between jace and her. it like ja..."
That's true..... its like bella and edward and anastasia and christian...... the worst "love" stories ever told.... she is pathetic and can't function without him... and when he is around she either wants to screw him or vent and then he makes the whole thing about himself and then she points it out lol......the only parts i read are the ones about Sebastian.... best character ever <3 at least she managed to write one character into the book that i actually like....except that i wish he would stop chasing clary because she is not worth any sensible person's time or energy.. and she does not even begin to deserve her brother
That's true..... its like bella and edward and anastasia and christian...... the worst "love" stories ever told.... she is pathetic and can't function without him... and when he is around she either wants to screw him or vent and then he makes the whole thing about himself and then she points it out lol......the only parts i read are the ones about Sebastian.... best character ever <3 at least she managed to write one character into the book that i actually like....except that i wish he would stop chasing clary because she is not worth any sensible person's time or energy.. and she does not even begin to deserve her brother
Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary? It says:
Look, it’s okay if you don’t like Clary. Characters are like real people: t..."
No...no....and no. The reason some people dislike a character ..in this instance .. clary.. is because she is a terrible character and she cant make up for it nor does she try to .. at all...in fact she just gets worse with each sentence and people with sense can discern a good character from a bad one , including the faults they have..
Anyways , if this was a boy main character it probably would still suck in most ways ... here's the reason ... most boys and girls are NOT the same... men have a different vibe about them .. a different line of thinking.. their impulsiveness is reasonable etc. usually its explained and they make up for it blah blah.. but clary in general absolutely sucks as a character and therefore everything she does becomes annoying... simple as that... including the fact that she is a hypocrite... an annoying bitchy whiny disrespectful hypocrite.
Clary is an awful person.
Setting aside the gender of the character if you just take the personality and characteristics then list the character's reasoning for them you would see why its a shitty character... cassandra clare used a shitty excuse to try and defend her shitty character XD
Look, it’s okay if you don’t like Clary. Characters are like real people: t..."
No...no....and no. The reason some people dislike a character ..in this instance .. clary.. is because she is a terrible character and she cant make up for it nor does she try to .. at all...in fact she just gets worse with each sentence and people with sense can discern a good character from a bad one , including the faults they have..
Anyways , if this was a boy main character it probably would still suck in most ways ... here's the reason ... most boys and girls are NOT the same... men have a different vibe about them .. a different line of thinking.. their impulsiveness is reasonable etc. usually its explained and they make up for it blah blah.. but clary in general absolutely sucks as a character and therefore everything she does becomes annoying... simple as that... including the fact that she is a hypocrite... an annoying bitchy whiny disrespectful hypocrite.
Clary is an awful person.
Setting aside the gender of the character if you just take the personality and characteristics then list the character's reasoning for them you would see why its a shitty character... cassandra clare used a shitty excuse to try and defend her shitty character XD
Chantal wrote: "Honestly I only hated her in City of Fallen Angels. She whined a lot, and was always making really rash, impulsive decisions without thinking of the consequences. But as a whole, Clary is a kick-as..."
SAY WHAT??!!?! i may not have liked divergent series eventually ... but she was smarter and braver in the first two books of the series than clary was in her whole pathetic life in the series... yeah thats right... Tris was a better character in 2 books than clary could ever even hope to be in 6 goddamn books!!!
SAY WHAT??!!?! i may not have liked divergent series eventually ... but she was smarter and braver in the first two books of the series than clary was in her whole pathetic life in the series... yeah thats right... Tris was a better character in 2 books than clary could ever even hope to be in 6 goddamn books!!!
okay it's been a long time since I posted on this thread but honestly speaking I saw a character development regarding Clary as the series ended on City of Heavenly Fire.Clary's outlook from "me and Jace" became "us" and I applaud that. However, she's still my least favorite character and I feel like Cassandra Clare made her the heroine on the last book so people would like her but somehow the way i see it's just pushed.
Princess wrote: "okay it's been a long time since I posted on this thread but honestly speaking I saw a character development regarding Clary as the series ended on City of Heavenly Fire.
Clary's outlook from "me ..."
lol development? it all went even more downhill..she ended up being a betraying untrustworthy backstabber..
Also how the heck is "me and jace" turning to "us" a big deal...its just a change of pronoun -_- but whatever
Clary's outlook from "me ..."
lol development? it all went even more downhill..she ended up being a betraying untrustworthy backstabber..
Also how the heck is "me and jace" turning to "us" a big deal...its just a change of pronoun -_- but whatever
She acts before thinkingShe is a way too sure of herself than she should be
She thinks that she is right and everyone is wrong
She cannot handle criticism
She whines
ThePirate74 wrote: "She acts before thinking
She is a way too sure of herself than she should be
She thinks that she is right and everyone is wrong
She cannot handle criticism
She whines"
PREACH!!
She is a way too sure of herself than she should be
She thinks that she is right and everyone is wrong
She cannot handle criticism
She whines"
PREACH!!
I'm just saying her decision mostly bases on her and Jace and on the latter part her decision kinda focuses on the good of many. I know my statements have not been very clear but that's just my opinion.
Princess wrote: "I'm just saying her decision mostly bases on her and Jace and on the latter part her decision kinda focuses on the good of many. I know my statements have not been very clear but that's just my opi..."
Her decisions are actually based on whatever serves her and jace...i doubt she gives a shit about anyone else including a lot of her "friends"
Her decisions are actually based on whatever serves her and jace...i doubt she gives a shit about anyone else including a lot of her "friends"
I stumbled across this post and as a massive TMI fan, I have to pitch in my two cents...My issue isn't that I hate Clary. It's that all of the other characters are constantly losing their minds over how GREAT she is. Quite honestly, I don't really see it. She is no different from every other YA heroine out there (her only flaws are being stubborn and impulsive...I mean come on, really??? Sounds way too familiar) yet we are constantly being told she is special rather than shown. I can't shake the feeling Clare just fictionalized herself and then made that fictional version "better" (in her eyes) if you will. I mean her pen name is Cassandra and her character is Clarissa. Her pen name surname is Clare and her character is Clary. Both are redheads... I still respect Clare as a writer and I love her writing and pretty much all of her other characters. I have to ask though- does anyone else feel this way?
I feel as though Clary was one of the main reasons I didn't enjoy the series as much as I could have. She annoyed me (along with Jace) and was similar to many YA heroines.
Emily wrote: "I feel as though Clary was one of the main reasons I didn't enjoy the series as much as I could have. She annoyed me (along with Jace) and was similar to many YA heroines."
Definitely lol she was nothing new in fact she was worse.. which is why i dont get why anyone likes her.. and jace was beyond boring.. their scenes together were gag worthy ... their romance was annoying and a waste of space in the book... even the supposed hot scenes weren't hot whatsoever.. the only reason i even skimmed through some scenes in this book was because there was one amazing character... Sebastian/ Jonathan Morgenstern .
Definitely lol she was nothing new in fact she was worse.. which is why i dont get why anyone likes her.. and jace was beyond boring.. their scenes together were gag worthy ... their romance was annoying and a waste of space in the book... even the supposed hot scenes weren't hot whatsoever.. the only reason i even skimmed through some scenes in this book was because there was one amazing character... Sebastian/ Jonathan Morgenstern .
i wouldn't say that clary is my fav character but she isn't a really bad character too i mean the girl faced alot of things in a really short time which of course would make her impulsive and whinny
I don't like her because she was obsessed with Jace and very selfish
Sammy wrote: "I don't like her because she was obsessed with Jace and very selfish"
Yeah she really was lol and honestly i don't even see anything in him really much... the only qualities of his are his good looks, his sarcasm which is actually thinly veiled insults usually and his obsession with Clary and keeping her safe from everything and everyone i guess. The only time i liked his character was when Sebastian was controlling him. Honestly there is an honest trailer where the movie trailer guy talks about a character who's existence is based solely around another character and that's what this is ... in some cases it works, in this one it doesn't and yes Clary is selfish in a very self absorbed way... being selfish is understandable to a degree but she is over the top lol.
Yeah she really was lol and honestly i don't even see anything in him really much... the only qualities of his are his good looks, his sarcasm which is actually thinly veiled insults usually and his obsession with Clary and keeping her safe from everything and everyone i guess. The only time i liked his character was when Sebastian was controlling him. Honestly there is an honest trailer where the movie trailer guy talks about a character who's existence is based solely around another character and that's what this is ... in some cases it works, in this one it doesn't and yes Clary is selfish in a very self absorbed way... being selfish is understandable to a degree but she is over the top lol.
Sabiha wrote: "I absolutely hate her, she's the only reason I gave the series 4.5 out of 5 stars. Clary depends entirely on Jace and cannot fend for herself. When the chance for her to finally train comes up, she..."
Maybe she should have died in the last book, she would have deserved it and it would have been something the readers didn't see coming lol but honestly i would want her to stay alive and be a better character and end up with Sebastian/Jonathan but that didn't happen.
Maybe she should have died in the last book, she would have deserved it and it would have been something the readers didn't see coming lol but honestly i would want her to stay alive and be a better character and end up with Sebastian/Jonathan but that didn't happen.
Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary? It says:Look, it’s okay if you don’t like Clary. Characters are like..."
Wait, are you saying that if Clary were a boy, her impulsiveness would be okay? Why? Men and women can both be impulsive. Or am I just misreading what you said?
Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary? It says:
Look, it’s okay if you don’t like Clary. Charac..."
I'm saying that usually when it comes to being impulsive girls and boys in books usually have a different vibe to them for example a different line of thinking ... a guy can easily be stupidly impulsive but most of the authors who write about impulsive male characters write them in a certain way in those scenes and in general as good characters that you end up liking ... Clary in general is a terrible character im not even kidding i can go into detail about why she is a terrible character and her seemingly endless flaws if you want i can mention some . I admire it when a girl is impulsive at times for example ones who impulsively try to protect the male protagonist when he is being attacked despite getting hurt and usually not doing much damage they give the male protagonist time to recollect themselves and also seeing the girl they love get hurt while trying to protect them gives them a burst of adrenaline and makes them more determined to kill off the bad guy or the monster.
The truth is i know a good character when i see one and despite the majority of fans obsessing over Jace i can clearly see something that even the author may not have seen....... Sebastian/Jonathan is the most realistic , deep , interesting, and amazing character i have seen in a while. And he is amazing lol.
Look, it’s okay if you don’t like Clary. Charac..."
I'm saying that usually when it comes to being impulsive girls and boys in books usually have a different vibe to them for example a different line of thinking ... a guy can easily be stupidly impulsive but most of the authors who write about impulsive male characters write them in a certain way in those scenes and in general as good characters that you end up liking ... Clary in general is a terrible character im not even kidding i can go into detail about why she is a terrible character and her seemingly endless flaws if you want i can mention some . I admire it when a girl is impulsive at times for example ones who impulsively try to protect the male protagonist when he is being attacked despite getting hurt and usually not doing much damage they give the male protagonist time to recollect themselves and also seeing the girl they love get hurt while trying to protect them gives them a burst of adrenaline and makes them more determined to kill off the bad guy or the monster.
The truth is i know a good character when i see one and despite the majority of fans obsessing over Jace i can clearly see something that even the author may not have seen....... Sebastian/Jonathan is the most realistic , deep , interesting, and amazing character i have seen in a while. And he is amazing lol.
Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary? It says:Look, it’s okay if you don’t li..."
So you're saying that a girl can help, but it's ultimately the boys job to step up and kill the threat. Why? There were times were Jace wasn't there or was unable to help and Clary was the one who saved herself and others.
Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary? It says:
Look, it’s okay if..."
Lol jeez no i'm not saying girls can't fight off the bad guy and be the main person doing it , i'm just saying most authors can't do it right or they make the character one that is hard to like so everything they do seems annoying . But there is nothing wrong with letting a guy fight off the bad guys either... in certain cases its smarter especially if the guy is bigger and stronger, its rational. Clary was kind of obsessed about seeming important and the center of attention and all that and some people noticed that.... she was just a terrible character ... end of story. She can't be redeemed either lol.
Look, it’s okay if..."
Lol jeez no i'm not saying girls can't fight off the bad guy and be the main person doing it , i'm just saying most authors can't do it right or they make the character one that is hard to like so everything they do seems annoying . But there is nothing wrong with letting a guy fight off the bad guys either... in certain cases its smarter especially if the guy is bigger and stronger, its rational. Clary was kind of obsessed about seeming important and the center of attention and all that and some people noticed that.... she was just a terrible character ... end of story. She can't be redeemed either lol.
Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary? It says:Lo..."
Oh okay! My bad, I misunderstood you. So, may I ask, what would have made Clary less annoying for you? What could she have done to make her more likable?
Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's post about Clary..."
Ok then. Well first off i will mention i did not hate her at all for calling Sebastian/Jonathan to stop Jace from giving himself over to the clave, sure it was selfish but it was rational as well in a way but yes if she was really on the side of good she would have let him do what needed to be done to fix the whole mess. Honestly what i didn't like about Clary was that she was a hypocrite
Example: She is disgusted by Sebastian's advances towards her etc. but when she thought Jace was her brother she was angry at him for trying to break off the relationship and hurt when she saw him make out with another girl . Not to mention that before she knew who Sebastian was she was attracted to him and even after she found out it was clear there was something there between them.
She's a liar
Example: She says she will give Sebastian a chance but in her mind she won't stop condemning him and hating him and all that .. despite the fact that she has killed people or gotten them put in risky situations herself for her own purposes.
She contradicts herself
Example: She doesn't know the truth so she is constantly contradicting herself to meet whatever needs the situation calls for by either saying that Sebastian can't feel or that he can feel but only terrible things. Even when he opens up and lets her into his world she stabs him in the back ... figuratively and literally .
She Ignores others yet doesn't like being ignored
Example: I have only skimmed through the series but i'm pretty sure she has dismissed certain people and their problems but when they do it to her its unacceptable ... for example Jace says he wants to hurt her and she goes all Bella on him saying "i trust you" lol also both of them have serious issues , they complain about how self absorbed they are to each other or how reckless etc. i mean come on Jace is so full of himself and Clary is so self centered that she doesn't know how self absorbed she is sometimes.
There's more but i think i made my point? idk lol let me know.
Ok then. Well first off i will mention i did not hate her at all for calling Sebastian/Jonathan to stop Jace from giving himself over to the clave, sure it was selfish but it was rational as well in a way but yes if she was really on the side of good she would have let him do what needed to be done to fix the whole mess. Honestly what i didn't like about Clary was that she was a hypocrite
Example: She is disgusted by Sebastian's advances towards her etc. but when she thought Jace was her brother she was angry at him for trying to break off the relationship and hurt when she saw him make out with another girl . Not to mention that before she knew who Sebastian was she was attracted to him and even after she found out it was clear there was something there between them.
She's a liar
Example: She says she will give Sebastian a chance but in her mind she won't stop condemning him and hating him and all that .. despite the fact that she has killed people or gotten them put in risky situations herself for her own purposes.
She contradicts herself
Example: She doesn't know the truth so she is constantly contradicting herself to meet whatever needs the situation calls for by either saying that Sebastian can't feel or that he can feel but only terrible things. Even when he opens up and lets her into his world she stabs him in the back ... figuratively and literally .
She Ignores others yet doesn't like being ignored
Example: I have only skimmed through the series but i'm pretty sure she has dismissed certain people and their problems but when they do it to her its unacceptable ... for example Jace says he wants to hurt her and she goes all Bella on him saying "i trust you" lol also both of them have serious issues , they complain about how self absorbed they are to each other or how reckless etc. i mean come on Jace is so full of himself and Clary is so self centered that she doesn't know how self absorbed she is sometimes.
There's more but i think i made my point? idk lol let me know.
Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone read Cassie's ..."You brought up some interesting points.
Clary stopping Jace from turning himself in was the most rational thing she do at that moment. After all, the whole reason she was there was to help Jace and try to find out what Sebastian's plans were so she could stop him. I wouldn't say it was selfish, it didn't really benefit her and it would have just jeopardize her mission. Besides, at that time, they still didn't know how to get Jace out from Sebastian's control, so going to the Clave wouldn't have done much good anyway.
She wasn't just disgusted with Sebastian because he was her brother, she was also disgusted by the things he's done. He murdered Max. He murdered an innocent child, which is atrocious. Max was like a brother to Jace and that devastated him. Seeing Jace hurt by Max's death also hurt Clary. He also helped his father start a war. He unleashed hordes of demons on the Shadowhunters. That caused deaths of her fellow Shadowhunters. Those actions, combined with the fact he was her brother, was the reason she hated Sebastian. Also, remember when Clary and Jace thought they were siblings, they tried to stop having romantic feelings for each other. Clary tried to date Simon and Jace tried acting like a brother and made out with Aline. They did try. When Clary got upset with Jace for kissing Aline, she said (I think it was to Izzy) that she was trying not to be upset because Jace was her brother and she had no reason to feel that way. They thought they were siblings and they tried to stop their feeling because they knew it was wrong. Sebastian always knew they were siblings. He even tried to seduce her in City of Glass, knowing full well they were related. He doesn't try to have familial love for Clary. He even tried to rape her, which is absolutely horrible. I don't blame Clary at all for hating Sebastian, I hate him too.
Yeah, she did lie to Sebastian. It was for her mission. She had to gain his trust so she lied. Everything she did was for her mission.
I don't recall her saying Sebastian couldn't feel then said he could only feel bad things. It was been a while since I've read some of them, so I can't really agree or disagree with you on that. I also don't recall her dismissing anybody. Yeah, when Jace tried to hurt her and she just let that go was weird, I agree with on that.
Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Brianna wrote: "Atty wrote: "Maddie wrote: "I understand some of the comments that people have posted here... but has anyone r..."
It was selfish actually but what im saying is it was understandable.
Second, killing a child is atrocious? seriously ? because fucking Clary wished for a while that Jocelyn had killed Sebastian/Jonathan in his crib ... Jocelyn wishes the same... they are both beyond messed up ... worse than anyone else and they're too terrible to know it , too self righteous. Also as Sebastian mentions he didn't mean to kill Max only knock him out like he did with Isabitch .....Isabelle lol.
The demons killed her shadowhunter friends? big deal... shadowhunters have been killed plenty but of course its a special case scenario if its Clary's shadowhunter friends right? *sarcasm*
None of those are legitimate reasons to hate her brother.
Clary never really stopped having feelings for Jace and no she didn't really try to stop her feelings ... in fact she got hurt and angry at him for trying to move on ... these are things i heard from people who actually read the book series. What i can't stand about them is that they think there is nothing wrong with two men screwing each others brains out but if they have feelings for each other its "sick" and "wrong" they are such morons !!! One reason i really like Sebastian's character is because he doesn't feel ashamed of anything he feels and he goes after what he wants and he does whatever he can in his power to get it or have it.
Yes... so what? even she was attracted to Sebastian in City of Glass.. i find nothing wrong with that and people who do usually turn out to be absolute hypocrites. Like Clary and Cassandra Clare herself.
He does clearly have familial love for Clary and also love that goes far beyond that as he has evidently shown ......... i thought that was obvious and is even stated at times by other characters that if Sebastian loves anyone it's Clary.
That scene wasn't really a rape and i am tired of people calling it that.... I'm sick of people making this sort of thing always seem like a rape like it couldn't possibly be consensual but anyway .. seriously at that point any girl with any depth or understanding and hormones would have fallen for Sebastian, he is an amazing character... the only reason it ended up being grim is because of Clary and what she supposedly felt etc. it was really annoying to read about her reactions.
Yeah many people hate Sebastian for no good reason... they swoon over Jace ... which is the worst character and brush aside Sebastian which is the deepest, most intriguing, and realistic character in this entire book series. I didn't mind Simon's character either and at time Magnus was funny or interesting.
Yes she had to gain his trust by lying and he ended up lying to her and people consider him evil for that? for playing it smart and not telling the truth which is exactly what she was doing? ugh!! once again with the one way street metaphors.
She didn't say those quotes specifically but something very similar.
I get that she trusts him but when someone tries to hurt you and tell you about how they have recently been getting those thoughts and you just brush it off, you are a total moron, they clearly need someone to talk to and figure out what's going on but Clary acts like a lovestruck dismissive idiot. It's like to her Jace is more of an idea in her head than an actual person... someone who could never hurt her, someone who's entire life revolves around her, and someone who loves her and would do anything for her and who has to be by her side... its suffocating really.
It was selfish actually but what im saying is it was understandable.
Second, killing a child is atrocious? seriously ? because fucking Clary wished for a while that Jocelyn had killed Sebastian/Jonathan in his crib ... Jocelyn wishes the same... they are both beyond messed up ... worse than anyone else and they're too terrible to know it , too self righteous. Also as Sebastian mentions he didn't mean to kill Max only knock him out like he did with Isabitch .....Isabelle lol.
The demons killed her shadowhunter friends? big deal... shadowhunters have been killed plenty but of course its a special case scenario if its Clary's shadowhunter friends right? *sarcasm*
None of those are legitimate reasons to hate her brother.
Clary never really stopped having feelings for Jace and no she didn't really try to stop her feelings ... in fact she got hurt and angry at him for trying to move on ... these are things i heard from people who actually read the book series. What i can't stand about them is that they think there is nothing wrong with two men screwing each others brains out but if they have feelings for each other its "sick" and "wrong" they are such morons !!! One reason i really like Sebastian's character is because he doesn't feel ashamed of anything he feels and he goes after what he wants and he does whatever he can in his power to get it or have it.
Yes... so what? even she was attracted to Sebastian in City of Glass.. i find nothing wrong with that and people who do usually turn out to be absolute hypocrites. Like Clary and Cassandra Clare herself.
He does clearly have familial love for Clary and also love that goes far beyond that as he has evidently shown ......... i thought that was obvious and is even stated at times by other characters that if Sebastian loves anyone it's Clary.
That scene wasn't really a rape and i am tired of people calling it that.... I'm sick of people making this sort of thing always seem like a rape like it couldn't possibly be consensual but anyway .. seriously at that point any girl with any depth or understanding and hormones would have fallen for Sebastian, he is an amazing character... the only reason it ended up being grim is because of Clary and what she supposedly felt etc. it was really annoying to read about her reactions.
Yeah many people hate Sebastian for no good reason... they swoon over Jace ... which is the worst character and brush aside Sebastian which is the deepest, most intriguing, and realistic character in this entire book series. I didn't mind Simon's character either and at time Magnus was funny or interesting.
Yes she had to gain his trust by lying and he ended up lying to her and people consider him evil for that? for playing it smart and not telling the truth which is exactly what she was doing? ugh!! once again with the one way street metaphors.
She didn't say those quotes specifically but something very similar.
I get that she trusts him but when someone tries to hurt you and tell you about how they have recently been getting those thoughts and you just brush it off, you are a total moron, they clearly need someone to talk to and figure out what's going on but Clary acts like a lovestruck dismissive idiot. It's like to her Jace is more of an idea in her head than an actual person... someone who could never hurt her, someone who's entire life revolves around her, and someone who loves her and would do anything for her and who has to be by her side... its suffocating really.
Honestly, what bothered me the most about Clary is how chill she was after she killed her dad and brother. I mean, it doesn't matter how evil anyone in your family is, they're your family. She didn't seem one bit bothered that she killed Valentine, her flesh and blood, the reason she exists. No guilt at all. Like what the heck? How couldn't she feel guilty for committing patricide, one of the unforgivable crimes in Ancient Rome. And she killed her brother. Still no guilt. Everything is perfectly fine.Family is family, no matter how dysfunctional you are.
Irene wrote: "Honestly, what bothered me the most about Clary is how chill she was after she killed her dad and brother. I mean, it doesn't matter how evil anyone in your family is, they're your family. She didn..."
I disagree with that statement, some people really are that awful but it would still affect you psychologically... not for killing them but the fact that you killed anyone’s in the first place. But in the books her family was perfectly fine , in fact her dad and her brother were very interesting and good deep down while her mother was rotten and elvish and disgusting ... just like her... oh wait.. I think I just solved the puzzle ... it’s because clary and her mother are horrid and heartless lol
I disagree with that statement, some people really are that awful but it would still affect you psychologically... not for killing them but the fact that you killed anyone’s in the first place. But in the books her family was perfectly fine , in fact her dad and her brother were very interesting and good deep down while her mother was rotten and elvish and disgusting ... just like her... oh wait.. I think I just solved the puzzle ... it’s because clary and her mother are horrid and heartless lol
So I had a hate-love relationship with her. I def wanted her to end up with Jace, but she was so stupid and refused to back down when it could kill everyone. She's def selfish which is why I felt more for Tessa, even Isabelle and Jessamine.
Idk I don’t see Clary being super obsessed with Jace. Yes, they’re dating and yes , in all the books she does think about him a lot out of worry... but she’s a teenager though and this is her first real boyfriend (her relationship with Simon was weird and she really only dated him because he was the safe option so it wasn’t really serious in my eyes). I mean like in the first book she didn’t really focus on Jace as much even though she hinted a little bit of interest, she was focused on saving her mom and Jace was there to help her out when others were reluctant despite her being oblivious to the fact that he really was only doing it because he was falling in love with her. For her to enter the shadowhunter world Jace seemed to be one of the main people who was sorta guiding her and making sure that she wasn’t going into the journey all blindfolded and overwhelmed . There are a lot of parts in the books that I can bring up where she really does prioritize the important things over sitting and sulking about her conflicted feelings for Jace, but that would just take a long time lol. All in all, I’m just saying that on the start of her Journey it was Jace that was there willing to help her and I think it’s okay for her to worry about him and all that. She’s just trying to take care and look after his back like he did those past times when she was in trouble
Irene wrote: "Honestly, what bothered me the most about Clary is how chill she was after she killed her dad and brother. I mean, it doesn't matter how evil anyone in your family is, they're your family. She didn..."
Exactly, most of her characters are very unrealistic. Her dad and her brother actually had more depth and reason than she did , she was a stereotypical cliche of a hero . Killing someone in your family even if you despise them (which she didnt) can haunt you . In the godfather when michael decided to kill fredo i already knew that was a bad idea and was going to bite him in the ass in the future and it did, he never forgave himself and it broke him and haunted him for the rest of his life , he became afraid of losing anyone from his family. Clary would have had to be a heartless cunt for it to not affect her at all, but more like she would have to be a completely one dimensional character , because most people would not be ok after doing that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Exactly, most of her characters are very unrealistic. Her dad and her brother actually had more depth and reason than she did , she was a stereotypical cliche of a hero . Killing someone in your family even if you despise them (which she didnt) can haunt you . In the godfather when michael decided to kill fredo i already knew that was a bad idea and was going to bite him in the ass in the future and it did, he never forgave himself and it broke him and haunted him for the rest of his life , he became afraid of losing anyone from his family. Clary would have had to be a heartless cunt for it to not affect her at all, but more like she would have to be a completely one dimensional character , because most people would not be ok after doing that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Clary is a horrible protagonist. There is nothing remotely likeable or inspiring about her. Cassandra Clare does try to present her as this femme fatale at times but she is just a whiny kid that throws temper tantrums. Clary is forever the damsel in distress. Now Isabelle on the other hand is quite likeable with the right blend of courage, vulnerability and morality. But of course how can she be the protagonist since she is never the damsel in distress.
Amrita wrote: "Clary is a horrible protagonist. There is nothing remotely likeable or inspiring about her. Cassandra Clare does try to present her as this femme fatale at times but she is just a whiny kid that th..."
I agree about clary but she had potential that cassandra clare squandered .
As for isabelle , she had her own set of problems , her character had plenty of drawbacks.
I agree about clary but she had potential that cassandra clare squandered .
As for isabelle , she had her own set of problems , her character had plenty of drawbacks.
Atty wrote: "Amrita wrote: "Clary is a horrible protagonist. There is nothing remotely likeable or inspiring about her. Cassandra Clare does try to present her as this femme fatale at times but she is just a wh..."Of course Isabelle has her own set of problems and that is fine. The issue I had wasn't about having a flawed character as a heroine, it was having an uninspiring character as a heroine- one that sees little development and character growth throughout the series and yet is presented in a way that suggests to the readers to accept her as perfect.
Jace, Alec, Simon, Magnus- all of them had their demons and battled through it. Isabelle was just not important enough for Cassandra Clare to be given her own graph. Thank God the TV Show changed that. But Clary was never given a reason to distrust herself, to introspect, to change, to grow. She did whatever she did first for her mom, then for Jace always going by what she thought was right and ignoring every advice anyone else ever gave her. And the readers were just supposed to accept her behaviour since she was the protagonist.
Irene wrote: "Honestly, what bothered me the most about Clary is how chill she was after she killed her dad and brother. I mean, it doesn't matter how evil anyone in your family is, they're your family. She didn..."While I personally don't like Clary at all I feel that her not feeling remorse for killing Valentine and Jonathan is no reason to hate her. The whole 'blood makes family' concept is so flawed and archaic. Even going by the books Jace was Valentine's favourite child and he was adopted. Clary never thought of Valentine or Sebastian/ Jonathan as family, had no idea they existed at the beginning of 'city of bones' and they made it their life's mission to kill/ destroy the people she actually considered family. The fact that Clary could see the bigger picture and kill them without trying to manipulate someone else into doing it for her OR chickening out and letting the world suffer is, for me, a huge point (may be the only point) in her favour.
Amrita wrote: "Atty wrote: "Amrita wrote: "Clary is a horrible protagonist. There is nothing remotely likeable or inspiring about her. Cassandra Clare does try to present her as this femme fatale at times but she..."
Yes i understand that but i mean isabelle was unrealistic and as one dimensional as anyone , but ironically when she was with simon she seemed a bit more sophisticated , more realistic. Though generally the examples people give make her off putting . She sleeps with a guy right after her brother’s funeral to make herself feel better? That’s just low and disrespectful.
I dont know if i mentioned this but Clary did have potential its like Cassandra gave you glimpses of a possibility of something more in her, something not as predictable or acceptable to most readers as her usual persona, but then she would jerk you right back to the reality of her keeping Clary as a set character that had no depth and acted horribly.
Woah, in the show isabelle seemed even more like a cardboard cutout at first , then she became more like the book i think but either way not a fan lol
Jace ..... his only “development” was establishing clary as his only reason for everything. Yes teen relationships can make that happen but its done to an unrealistic degree.
Clary actually had more going on around her, far from perfect obviously, but there was so much that could have been done with her character, but cassandra made it so that her only inner conflicts were about jace in terms of personal relationships. Sebastian almost brought out her humanity (i know sounds ironic to most readers) but she slipped back and the books ended with everyone following their usual path.
Yes i understand that but i mean isabelle was unrealistic and as one dimensional as anyone , but ironically when she was with simon she seemed a bit more sophisticated , more realistic. Though generally the examples people give make her off putting . She sleeps with a guy right after her brother’s funeral to make herself feel better? That’s just low and disrespectful.
I dont know if i mentioned this but Clary did have potential its like Cassandra gave you glimpses of a possibility of something more in her, something not as predictable or acceptable to most readers as her usual persona, but then she would jerk you right back to the reality of her keeping Clary as a set character that had no depth and acted horribly.
Woah, in the show isabelle seemed even more like a cardboard cutout at first , then she became more like the book i think but either way not a fan lol
Jace ..... his only “development” was establishing clary as his only reason for everything. Yes teen relationships can make that happen but its done to an unrealistic degree.
Clary actually had more going on around her, far from perfect obviously, but there was so much that could have been done with her character, but cassandra made it so that her only inner conflicts were about jace in terms of personal relationships. Sebastian almost brought out her humanity (i know sounds ironic to most readers) but she slipped back and the books ended with everyone following their usual path.
Atty wrote: "Amrita wrote: "Atty wrote: "Amrita wrote: "Clary is a horrible protagonist. There is nothing remotely likeable or inspiring about her. Cassandra Clare does try to present her as this femme fatale a..."I guess we just have different opinions on how the characters are represented in the books and thats fine. To each his/her own.
On the TV series front, I think when the show started every character was a cardboard cutout except may be Simon. However, they really came into their own as the show progressed and I think the show treats the characters with a lot more respect, really fleshing them out.
The books were way too focused on Jace and Clary and so the stories for other characters suffered (especially for Isabelle). With the show though all the lead characters have been given equal importance and their own storyline. Its reflected in the popularity of Malec and Sizzy over Clace. Even the show Clary is better- not half as dumb or self-involved as the books. By no means is the show a work of genius but I feel its definitely better and healthier than the books. Just my 2 cents.
Well i mean there’s a basic standard that characters have to meet that isabelle does not meet, neither do a lot of her characters lol but if you want to like her despite that , its fine . Glad you didn’t get all fangirl defensive though XD
No , i mean the show seemed to make them slightly progress , alec for sure . But for the most part they had as much progress in the books which isn’t much despite the length of the books .
The show’s dialogue was laughably bad , like literally i laughed because it seemed like it was almost written as a comedy and the acting reflected that but in a way it wasn’t as bad as i originlly thought , it was a nice kind of badly done teen drama XD
Maybe they would have done better in a comedy show , i can almost picture it. But anyways this was a nice little debate and no one got a rock thrown at them so i would say it was a pretty successful one lol
No , i mean the show seemed to make them slightly progress , alec for sure . But for the most part they had as much progress in the books which isn’t much despite the length of the books .
The show’s dialogue was laughably bad , like literally i laughed because it seemed like it was almost written as a comedy and the acting reflected that but in a way it wasn’t as bad as i originlly thought , it was a nice kind of badly done teen drama XD
Maybe they would have done better in a comedy show , i can almost picture it. But anyways this was a nice little debate and no one got a rock thrown at them so i would say it was a pretty successful one lol
I would consider it pretty successful too. Thumbs up! Although the reason I didn't get all fangirl defensive is because I am not a fan. I read the TMI series at a time when I was stunningly bored and I personally think they are horrible books with shitty writing and a badly developed universe (the clave- a government of every shadowhunter over 18, really?). I have described that in detail in other discussions so won't do that here. Also, the books just really make me question Cassandra Clare's morals.And like I said before while the TV show is no work of genius, I feel like they genuinely went about it the right way. I agree with you that the dialogues and the dialogue delivery could be so so much better had they paid more attention to acting instead of style. But for me the choice was between really-sucky-and-goes-on-forever (the books) and kinda-enjoyable-with-popcorn (the TV show).
Anyway, this was a fun little discussion. Peace.
Amrita wrote: "I would consider it pretty successful too. Thumbs up! Although the reason I didn't get all fangirl defensive though is because I am not a fan. I read the TMI series at a particular time when I was ..."
Oh, that makes sense! Lol really clears it up .
Wait so if you’re over 18 you’re automatically part of the government clave? I did not know that, maybe since there aren’t many shadowhunters all of the elders are recruited.
I don’t mind some morals being questioned lol hmm but the way she portrayed certain things was unhealthy .... like the abusive relationship i keep hearing about, or the clace stuff that is so co dependent and with clary just missing all the red flags like they’re flying over her head or something . People find the idea of clary and sebastian gross or “messed up” which to me it isn’t but i have to kind of laugh when they say it’s unhealthy as if clace is a healthy relationship.
Yeah i checked out some more clips, i mean its not unwatchably awful , its like the if you’re really bored and want something kind of stupid but entertaining sort of show. I actually like the characters more in the alternate dimension episode in a way when theyre acting like normal teens (funny to see) but idk it wasn’t bad .
Really anything about nephilim and powers and bloodlines seems to capture my attention so damnit!
But yeah , good chatting lol nice meeting you .
Oh, that makes sense! Lol really clears it up .
Wait so if you’re over 18 you’re automatically part of the government clave? I did not know that, maybe since there aren’t many shadowhunters all of the elders are recruited.
I don’t mind some morals being questioned lol hmm but the way she portrayed certain things was unhealthy .... like the abusive relationship i keep hearing about, or the clace stuff that is so co dependent and with clary just missing all the red flags like they’re flying over her head or something . People find the idea of clary and sebastian gross or “messed up” which to me it isn’t but i have to kind of laugh when they say it’s unhealthy as if clace is a healthy relationship.
Yeah i checked out some more clips, i mean its not unwatchably awful , its like the if you’re really bored and want something kind of stupid but entertaining sort of show. I actually like the characters more in the alternate dimension episode in a way when theyre acting like normal teens (funny to see) but idk it wasn’t bad .
Really anything about nephilim and powers and bloodlines seems to capture my attention so damnit!
But yeah , good chatting lol nice meeting you .
I get what everyone is trying to say, I really do. And it makes sense. Another factor I would like everyone to put into consideration is that Clark is just that, female. Which scientifically means she is more sensitive and that is probably why people think she is whiny (if she were male she would be absurdly whiny). Reasons
She is new to the Shadow World and if I were part of a world I never knew of I would go into full panic state. But she doesn't which leads us to point one for why she is not relatable.
She is always asking but never willing to give in return (need I give examples, need I?)
I know it's cliche and everything but she is pretty dependent on Jace. So much that she becomes blinded by the people who really helped her become the person she is.
I get it, maybe she is really caring but does she show it on the battlefield. No. Only towards one person. Guess who? Jace. And if she is caring, does that not contradict the fact that she does not put much effort into understanding the people closest to her heart.
She does everything for herself in the end of the day whether everyone likes it or not. She just so happens to find and excuse that makes her seem not as self-centered.
Her somewhat dislike for Isabelle (because she is pretty and practically 'flawless' and also because she captures Simon's attention) proves how attention-seeking she is.
And to those people who say that people hate her because she is female, why do people not hate Annabeth, Six (the best comparison to Clary but she is ten times better than Clary could ever hope to be) or Ginny as much. There must be a certain quality that she lacks. In my opinion qualities.
Does she love Jace or does she love his golden hair, golden eyes and golden skin? Their love has never gone deeper than kissing, sex and looks. Not as much as Magnus and Alec'd anyway.
She has absolutely NO character development
Look at her and then look at Alec
One question that remains a mystery to this day for me is how did Jace and Clary, the most irresponsible and reckless people of the century, become co-heads of the NY institute. Because their so called bravery does not make up for it. Alec would've done better. But then again the Herondale factor could've come into play. And the fact that Alec is dating a warlock could've made the Clave suspicious whether he would be fit leader.
If anyone has another answer please tell me. I am desperate (Ha! Like Clary)
One thing she needs to understand is that just because she can create new runes and because she has more angel-blood doesn't make her morally powerful.
She is not 'beautifully flawed, she is morally stupid
Doesn't it also bother anyone that she was not trained in the beginning and didn't train as much as the other Shadowhunters yet she manages to put up a real fight when Sebastian fights. Sebastian who might I add is faster and stronger than everyone in the Shadowhunter World. Like not even the most trained could kill him and she swoops in and suddenly kills him (either her or Jace I don't remember) all the while not feeling heartless despite him still being her brother.
#1MalecShipper wrote: "Doesn't it also bother anyone that she was not trained in the beginning and didn't train as much as the other Shadowhunters yet she manages to put up a real fight when Sebastian fights. Sebastian w..."
Your first reply was accurate and hilarious i think from what i remember. As for your second, yes she was definitely weaker and should not have been able to do what she did , either the author did that for the sake of the story which i can elaborate on if you want , or sebastian let her kind of have an upper hand before he demolished her lol
Your first reply was accurate and hilarious i think from what i remember. As for your second, yes she was definitely weaker and should not have been able to do what she did , either the author did that for the sake of the story which i can elaborate on if you want , or sebastian let her kind of have an upper hand before he demolished her lol
Thank you. I was genuinely speaking from heart. But I do get why the author did what she did, but that doesn't necessarily mean that i'm happy about it or that I fully accept it. She seems to do a lot of things for the sake of the story, doesn't she?By the way, I totally agree with your theory that Clary may have developed actual character depth if she had ended up with Sebastian. It would also have made it distinctively different from most YA fantasy books. Not only would it have been social justice (so different from your 'ordinary points', it would also have made Clary an actual likeable character
#1MalecShipper wrote: "Thank you. I was genuinely speaking from heart. But I do get why the author did what she did, but that doesn't necessarily mean that i'm happy about it or that I fully accept it. She seems to do a ..."
It wasn’t just about the sake of the story i think she did it because of fans . She might have been testing the waters with the who,e reaction to clace possibly being siblings , didnt work out well so she could only play around with the topic when it came to clary and sebastian and drop hints but either way she just wrote bs politically correct socially correct things she couldnt push the envelope . (I cant stand the term social justice, the term is too wrapped in politics) yeah clary would probably be a lot more likeable with Sebastian but oh well i guess. Lol either way its enjoyable to think or imagine the different ways it could have gone . The story definitely had some potential.
It wasn’t just about the sake of the story i think she did it because of fans . She might have been testing the waters with the who,e reaction to clace possibly being siblings , didnt work out well so she could only play around with the topic when it came to clary and sebastian and drop hints but either way she just wrote bs politically correct socially correct things she couldnt push the envelope . (I cant stand the term social justice, the term is too wrapped in politics) yeah clary would probably be a lot more likeable with Sebastian but oh well i guess. Lol either way its enjoyable to think or imagine the different ways it could have gone . The story definitely had some potential.
Atty wrote: "#1MalecShipper wrote: "Thank you. I was genuinely speaking from heart. But I do get why the author did what she did, but that doesn't necessarily mean that i'm happy about it or that I fully accept..."Personally I feel like the author was making a tempest in a teapot about the whole incest story. Others won't agree with it as much (or at all) but in my opinion if you really love someone, common ancestry should most definitely not stop you. I just think that they should not reproduce as it could it be harmful towards the child.
P.S Ever since I finished the fourth book, my mind has been swimming with potential plot twists or the different ways that it could've gone.
#1MalecShipper wrote: "Atty wrote: "#1MalecShipper wrote: "Thank you. I was genuinely speaking from heart. But I do get why the author did what she did, but that doesn't necessarily mean that i'm happy about it or that I..."
Considering theyre not even really human yeah , but either way europeans are all pretty closely related so its a bit ridiculous. Either way yeah , but as for the child thing genetics isnt as clear cut as people think they could have easily had a kid , its happened before , genetic problems or mental problems can happen to anyone’s kids but they say they’re “angelic beings” even though they only have the blood of angels that they drank, angelic dna would be more pure.
Yeah thats what i meant , there were many other possibilities.
Considering theyre not even really human yeah , but either way europeans are all pretty closely related so its a bit ridiculous. Either way yeah , but as for the child thing genetics isnt as clear cut as people think they could have easily had a kid , its happened before , genetic problems or mental problems can happen to anyone’s kids but they say they’re “angelic beings” even though they only have the blood of angels that they drank, angelic dna would be more pure.
Yeah thats what i meant , there were many other possibilities.
Atty wrote: "#Considering theyre not even really human yeah , but either way Europeans are all pretty closely related so its a bit ridiculous. Either way..."Couldn't agree with you more
Somewhere along the line the truth melts into lies.
But that statement would open door to a lot of unanswered philosophical questions.
And anyway, most Shadowhunters are too stuck-up on the fact that they are somehow 'better' than faeries, warlocks, vampres, werewolves,etc. (cough...Zara Dearborn...cough) that they forget their true ancestry.
And about the child thing, I was thinking about it from the human point of view, since Shadowhunters are still theoretically half-humans, but I understand your point - if they're different why should their outcome still be the same
I really don’t care much if they think they’re better lol technically being angels they are above everything else , my problem was actually the opposite .... clary “cares” about downworlders if theyre someone she knows, if not , theyre “evil” or “untrustworthy” because theyre downworlders . The absolute hypocrisy and bs of clary and her friends and jocelyn and luke is just ridiculous . If youre going to be a hypocrite at least be an interesting one , but clary isnt , shes cliche and predictable.
I meant from the human point of view as well , its happened before the outcome with a baby is usually just a throw of the dice , anyone can get a bad outcome , it takes only one mistake in the developmental process.
But yeah since theyre angels or part angel they should be immune to human flaws.
I meant from the human point of view as well , its happened before the outcome with a baby is usually just a throw of the dice , anyone can get a bad outcome , it takes only one mistake in the developmental process.
But yeah since theyre angels or part angel they should be immune to human flaws.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Mikaela wrote: "Normally when you read books the main character is your favourite, however in the mortal instruments series my favourite characters over Clary are Isabelle, Magnus, Simon and Maia. Whilst I can say..."
Same here!