Reading the Chunksters discussion
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The Luminaries
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The Luminaries, (09/20 - 09/30 (10 days) ) Mercury in Sagittarius; Jupiter in Sagittarius
pages 1-45Honestly, I didn't expect the narrative to be Dickens-like, there are so many questions to be answered in the first forty-five pages alone; I can't imagine what kind of twists and turns I'll be encountering for the next 777 pages, or if the rest of the book will be able to stand up against the excitement and intrigue created in these prelimenary pages? It's simple to read, easily digested, and yes, this does cause me to over read... Where did the pages go?
This brings me to one of your questions, Zulfiya... The language? It's modern, I don't think she's copying the Victorian language.The narrative lacks that romantic feel and flare Victorian novels leave me with...It's polite and cautious, yes, but it lacks an air and Victorian colloquialisms. It's reading like a modern day mystery novel set in an English/New Zealand backdrop...Old vs New? Maybe this could be the reasoning behind choosing to write in a modern language... A representation of a "new" and foreign place? Structurally, I can see it being Victorean.
Intriguing Character...
Thomas Balfour, most definitely. I could tell he had an agenda from the get go. He's sly, cunning, and most of all, he lacks boundaries; which makes him a dangerous person in my eyes.
Other Thoughts
While I'm aware Moody arrives on Hokitika full of promise and a new beginning for himself, landing On the shattered 'graveyard'of the Hokitika bar didn't leave me with a great feeling for Thomas Moody (4). Also, on page 18, the narrator changes from omniscient while guiding the reader along the smoking room to a third person, "we." At this point, I would think the "we" would be the twelve telling me the story, but wanting Moody to tell his tale in his own words... Essentially, the story is being told about Thomas Moody... Anybody else read into this at all?
I thought the name for the private meeting The Catholic Friendliness held at the hotel was interesting (23).I don't feel any strong religious undertones as of yet, but I'm wondering if the name is nothing more than a "smoke"screen... Preventing them any further conflict from discussing the subject matter at hand... The murder?
Z,I'm glad you mentioned the narrative detail. I'm liking the mystery, but there was too much (unnecessary) description, in my opinion, and it occurs, possibly intentionally, at odd places in the narrative. Just when Moody or Balfour is about to reveal something, the narrative switches to flashback and detail.
Having said that, I am hooked by all the mystery: What happened on the Godspeed when Moody was present; the Carver/Wells relationship; the Carver/Wells/Lydia/Lauderback foursome, the prostitute's role in all this; and what is Lauderback holding back? Almost seems like 800 pages isn't enough to explore it all :-)
Who is the most intriguing character? I'm going with Balfour. An interesting thing to me is how different he appears when questioning Moody and when conversing with Lauderback -- almost two different personas and two different styles of asking questions.
This is just wild speculation, but I'm wondering how much of the story Balfour is relating to Moody about Lauderback is true? After all, Balfour and the others have just met Moody. How much are they willing to reveal? They seem very secretive to reveal so much so soon. Is Balfour reliable?
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Z,I'm glad you mentioned the narrative detail. I'm liking the mystery, but there was too much (unnecessary) description, in my opinion, and it occurs, possibly intentionally, at odd places in th..."
If I had to read about Thomas Moody "entering" that smoking room one more time...!! Good Lord, get through the damned door already, Moody? That particular aspect of the scene felt as if it took at least thirty minutes in real time, versus the seconds in literary time; which renders it more comedic an entrance, than a shockingly surprising one. :)
Very good, Ami. I had a good laugh at that. Description is important, but over done is another matter.
I'm just starting this now but I thought I'd put a link in for 'Mercury in Sagittarius' for those of us who want to keep in mind the position of the stars in relation to what's happening down below.http://www.alwaysastrology.com/mercur...
So far (although I'm only a few pages in) there has been a lot of words, too many, like she needs to show off her large vocabulary to prove her writing credentials.
There is also a large amount of 'telling, not showing'.
Both of these makes the novel feel unrealistic. But I've only just started so if this is going to be her style I might become accustomed.
Something else, I wanted to mention...The novel begins by Thomas Moody entering a room of twelve, but I only count eleven within the narrative, as the twelfth is the mystery narrator, I would think... This is what I have so far, anybody have anything different, or more to add? Or I can add my notes from the second chapter a little later.Two Chinese men Two of the twelve men were Chinese dressed identically (7).
A Native One a Maori native face tattooed (7).
Thomas Balfour (8-10)
Blond man w/cue in hand disinterested in the game (8).
Dick Mannring, operates/owns the theater Fat man, ostentatiously dressed, feigning sleep, massive watch chain (9, 26 & 27).
Aubert Gascoige, a clerk Herringbone coat too warm to be worn sitting so close to the fire, turning a cigarette case over in hand (10, 38).
A dark haired, slim build man, very tall, whistling breather (11).
A Clergyman There's a Clergyman amongst the twelve (14).
A man sitting next to the cleric... has fallen asleep...Red hair, florid, imperial mustache... (16).
A dark haired man on Moody's left speaks... Found something in the cargo, you said (36).
Hmmmm . . . What would Holmes think?
I need to buy a pipe.
Very perceptive catch, by the way. Don't know what it means though.
I'm only a bit in, but already agree with with several of the comments about her writing. There is, I agree with Ami and Xan, too much digression into unnecessary description at inappropriate times, and the entry of Moody into the room was way too extended. I also agree with Ami that she does a good job sprinkling in questions that we are eager to get answered.
I haven't finished the intro to all the smoking room characters, but will be counting carefully to see whether I can find out why the 12 instead of 11.
I was actually quite struck by the modern, yet antiquated feel, of the narrative. It reminded me very much of the opening chapters of Cloud Atlas- which is the Pacific Journal of Adam Ewing, a character who finds himself alone and out of his depth on the Chatham Islands- so also in New Zealand. There may or may not be more to explore in that connection. (Ironically, several days after reading the first two chapters of Luminaries, Cloud Atlas was actually referenced in NOS4A2... so its just sort of everywhere all of the sudden). Cloud Atlas focuses largely on how souls, people, goals, and consequences intertwine throughout time. Already in these two chapters we see sort of the same thing, a cascade of events that is enveloping people in unlikely ways, but who seem largely unable to escape them. It will be soemthing I keep in mind.Other than that I do not think that the digressions are placed at inappropriate times. I think it has to do with the fact that we are at the mercy of multiple unreliable narrators. We are kind of tossed about between stories and narrations like a ship at sea, or on the graveyard and shoals of Hokitika. I think it is meant to keep the reader off balance. I do think, however, that its handling and sentence structure could have been handled more deftly. Still, she has only written two published books, so kind of still a freshman/sophomore attempt. It will be interesting to see if she grows as an author throughout this single book.
Also Balfour is my favorite, he very much reminds me of my godfather. In your face, a little reckless, gregarious.
Becky,Interesting. I also was reminded of Cloud Atlas. I didn't say anything, because I thought it was just another example of my mind getting away from me. And now you say the same thing. Ha. Thank you.
I think Balfour walked away from the conversation with Lauderback admiring him far less than when he walked into it. But I am suspicious of the whole conversation because Balfour strikes me as unreliable. We shall see.
I found Lauderback to be way more unreliable. His story doesn't add up and I got the feeling that it was actually him setting up/blackmailing Carver and/or Wells, maybe along with Lydia. The description hasn't bothered me, I kind of like how it mixes things up. I definitely agree with the 'telling' and not 'showing' comment though. It makes it seem like it could be easier to solve some of the mysteries though.
But Lauderback doesn't tell his story, Balfour does.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "But Lauderback doesn't tell his story, Balfour does."Yes, Xan... You beat me to it! Balfour "is" telling the story. I found Balfour unreliable because of his mannerisms while interrogating Moody. He was " smiling into the fire," feeling sympathy without being sympathetic (off the top of my head)... There are hidden meanings in his overtones.
The intricate language in the first few pages took me by surprise. It felt modern but highly layered, kind of like when I first read The God of Small Things but foggy instead of humid. After the first paragraphs it felt like I did slide into it. The subtle and frequent references to the various characters in the waiting groups and their shifting around definitely inspired curiosity, along with the more blatant references to whatever murky and ghastly happened on the boat.
I've only read the first chapter so far and need to move on to the second one for this section.
I have to say: reading this book on the kindle is really unhelpful. Thank you for the link, Nicola. I've been consulting it on my phone whenever i start another chapter.I like the mystery feel of the novel so far. I don't really feel one way or the other about the language. Quite frankly, I don't know a lot about different genres of stylistic writing.
It seems like each character will get a chapter for introduction. I feel like everyone is telling his story (from a sort of third-person omniscient perspective), and somehow it will all come together in the end. When you have so many characters, I suppose it takes that much time to go through the events, and it seems like nothing is insignificant.
I suppose the narrative, if anything, make it so easy for me to forget who did what and when. (Maybe it's my memory; ugh.) Maybe that's par for the course for a chunkster? I know I often felt that way through The Bone Clocks, so it might just be me.
I'm hooked, though. I'm surprised that I am. Maybe it's because of the language of the book? Plus, I love the hint about a potential supernatural aspect (which is probably not there, but I love a good potential supernatural aspect).
Mary anne, I too almost felt the supernatural quality in the story telling that did not necessarily come from the positions of the stars and moons. I think it came from the recollections of Moody, which presented themselves almost as a ghost story in the way that he felt l regarding the coffin and the bloody contents within. Whenever he thought back to that, the narrative became very disjointed, which I think is meant to unsettle the reader
Ami wrote: "Something else, I wanted to mention...The novel begins by Thomas Moody entering a room of twelve, but I only count eleven within the narrative, as the twelfth is the mystery narrator, I would think..."There were apparently at least three men playing billiards, because (I can't easily find the passage because I'm reading on Kindle, but this is my best recollection) she talks about one player and then says "the others...". Others, plural, means to me there were at least two others. Maybe they were among the later named people, but there may have been one unnamed and otherwise unidentified billiards player.
Mary Anne wrote: "I have to say: reading this book on the kindle is really unhelpful. "I'm finding the same thing. There is too much complexity to keep every perhaps important detail in mind, but it's hard to go back to check things. This isn't a problem with lighter reading, but for this book it's challenging.
One thing I found disconcerting. Early in the book the author says [Kindle location 82] that "Moody was only modestly rich, and often gave coins to paupers," but when he tells his story he claims to have lost all his money and to be in debt (but he can still tip the maid with the expectation of tipping her further in future). The initial location didn't say he had been modestly rich, but seems to suggest that he was and is. Disconcerting.
I don't trust Moody. First of all, it doesn't seem credible that having found his father and brother he would just casually decide to flee to the gold fields without any preparation for mining, without apparently any equipment (unless it's in the luggage still on the Godspeed, but there's no mention of his getting any, and if he was broke how did he pay for it?), without apparently any experience of physical labor (being a student at Cambridge and a lawyer in training doesn't count for much), and without any companion or mentor who actually knows how to look for and find gold. None of this seems credible to me.And then there's this matter of almost casually and without any consideration swapping identities and identity papers with somebody he has only met. what if that person is wanted by the police, or by creditors to whom he owes a bunch of money, which seems not unlikely if he wants to flee under an assumed name? What will he do when he gets back to England with Moody's identity papers? For somebody partially educated as a lawyer, and well educated at Cambridge, this is simply not believable, at least for me.
Something seems very wrong here.
Everyman wrote: "Ami wrote: "Something else, I wanted to mention...The novel begins by Thomas Moody entering a room of twelve, but I only count eleven within the narrative, as the twelfth is the mystery narrator, I..."Everyman wrote: "One thing I found disconcerting. Early in the book the author says [Kindle location 82] that "Moody was only modestly rich, and often gave coins to paupers," but when he tells his story he claims ..."
Moody
Yes, I remember reading both instances (pauper and maid) and didn't think anything about him not trusting him; in fact, I honed in on Moody's reflection after tipping the maid and thought him sly instead...Something along the lines of how she would prove to be useful to him later? My impression of Moody's remark was that it was of a sexual nature, but then thought better of it...Maybe she'll just make sure his sheets are always clean and he has extra towels on hand? LOL! I'm going to keep what you posted on the radar as I continue reading.
I did think Moody's immediate departure from Dunedin was peculiar, but I chocked it off as a young man who was severely jilted by not only his father but brother too. He left under duress and made very poor choices as decisions made from emotion are often never the right answer since he threw absolutely "everything"(family, identity, education, etc.) to the wind. Dammit, Everyman...One more person to add to this growing list of men who are all criminal in some shape and form! LOL!
Others, plural, means to me there were at least two others. Maybe they were among the later named people, but there may have been one unnamed and otherwise unidentified billiards player.
Perfect...That's exactly what I needed, thank you! I'll go back and find the passage :)
Ami,Moody's "obsession" with his appearance makes me think he is more about appearances than substance, and that the person he is may be quite different than the person he passes himself off as.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Ami,Moody's "obsession" with his appearance makes me think he is more about appearances than substance, and that the person he is may be quite different than the person he passes himself off as."
Yes, I do remember thinking he is awfully narcissistic too, yet I failed to translate it any further. Now, I'm wondering why I chose to ignore these signs in Moody and focus instead on say, Balfour or Lauderback?
Maybe it's because I'd just finished War and Peace, but I found it very easy to remember all of the characters and to follow the story.I like Moody, even though I don't believe his story about his father. I think that Catton does a great job of describing how a man in his late 20s, who is extremely good-looking and well-dressed, feels about himself. In fact, I really enjoyed Catton's writing. I find her approach to be fresh and fluid. I've read many new authors who have their MFAs over the past few years and some of their writings are stilted and forced.
My favorite character so far is Balfour. He's a trip. As someone mentioned earlier, I like his directness and fire. I am also curious if he knows more than he let's on.
I am looking forward to reading more of this book already, which I view as a great sign for me, because we have a long way to go. Catton has set up the storytelling nicely already.
Astrology:So for the first two chapters I have:
Mercury in Sagittarius espouses freedom of thought; at least, they try. They are optimistic and look to the future. They have big ideas and mean well. Vision is their strong point. Details are not. = Moody's ideas of coming to the goldfields and making his fortune. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that there is a great deal of chance involved and many people do not find the colour.
This would mean (I presume) that Moody is Mercury (as I know he is one of the planetary bodies) and Balfour is Sagittarius (one of the 12 signs). When I first started reading it I was thinking Moody was rather a Mars, due to his arrogance and good looks. I guess I'll have to do some more reading into Mercury.
Chapter Two focuses on Lauderback (Jupiter?) and Balfour - http://www.alwaysastrology.com/jupite...
Jupiter in Sagittarius attracts good luck as long as they are generous, tolerant and practice what they preach. They can be very inspirational. To do so, they just need to believe in themselves and their goals. Their natural enthusiasm should come through when they teach or learn new things, and they should be able to see the big picture. They are commonly interested in teaching, sports, publishing, education, travel and foreign cultures.
Their own opinions and perceptions are important to them, and they may take it as a personal affront if others disagree. They are good at making their own opportunities. When they tune into themselves, they can intuit what their next step should be. They are able to take these leaps of faith and succeed. They should be challenged to grow intellectually and physically. They love to compete. Sports are a good outlet for them.
This certainly seems like Lauderback, a confident politician.
1. A good opening. I sat down and re-read what I'd started and the whole of the first section. I liked the mystery and, like all good mysteries, there is definitely more than one. So far it seems that every character we've been introduced to, bar Balfour, has things to conceal. Not that he doesn't as well, I'm positive he does, it just hasn't been implied directly in the text. There seems to be a lot of changing identities going on which would no doubt be a lot easier in that age of poor records and mass migration. You can become someone new and implicate someone in a crime simply by changing tickets or writing their name on a packing invoice.
2. Well they are all interesting but I currently want to know more about Moody. What he saw on the Godspeed (a ghost?), this memory of a 'bloody cravat'; the 'dead man rising, bloody throat' and the 'bloody casket' in the Godspeeds hold. And the name Magdalena.
His story seems a little shady to me and he might have a murder or some sort of crime on his conscience.
3. They'll probably all get their turn.
4. Rather a mix. The use of d__m is old fashioned as are the short comments at the start of the chapter about what is about to be revealed but she doesn't try to make this authentic Victorian prose. Thank goodness.
5. The Hokitika bar. I remember this from The Colour. Another list book and a very good read. It brought back memories :-)
Re-reading this bit:She was delighted to discover a “triple conjunction in Sagittarius, three planets in the same sign” around the time she had been planning to set the novel. “As I tracked it over the year, I could see that certain planets were following each other and it set me to thinking about how I could put that into a story. Mercury, which is a planet that governs reason, was following just behind all the other players of the action. So I could build this narrative that the person who is trying to unravel the mysteries is one step behind it all.”
This makes more sense as to why Moody is Mercury.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets...
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology_p...
Nicola wrote: "Re-reading this bit:She was delighted to discover a “triple conjunction in Sagittarius, three planets in the same sign” around the time she had been planning to set the novel. “As I tracked it o..."
Thank you for this!
Does anyone have any ideas on the (deceased) under Related Influences? Is this part of the list?I'm rather curious because adding up the 12 signs (Stellas), plus the Earth, Planets and Influences, if you include (deceased) then the total is 28 which is the number of days in a lunar month.
Also the Related House list has 12 locations (and the Crown Hotel rather surprisingly to me isn't one of them) so I presume they correspond with an astrological sign. So far I'm clueless but I'm sure it's not a coincidence.
Oh my, not sure I can keep the astrology straight when I'm having a hard enough time remembering everyone in the billiards room! :D
Ha! I know, Becky. I really enjoyed that whole billiard scene, too. I thought that it was pretty cool how the author handled it.
Becky wrote: "Oh my, not sure I can keep the astrology straight when I'm having a hard enough time remembering everyone in the billiards room! :D"Ditto!!!!!!
I'm not done yet with the section, so I won't read everything above, but I'm finding it interesting so far, although I'll confess, the number of characters feels daunting to me! I certainly feel the intrigue from the very beginning, though. The plot will probably thicken a great deal as we go on! I'm curious to see how the astrological aspects come into play as we go. So far, I can't really tell.
Alana wrote: "I'm not done yet with the section, so I won't read everything above, but I'm finding it interesting so far, although I'll confess, the number of characters feels daunting to me! "My problem is that the characters don't feel to me like credible, well drawn people. I'm finding them a bit flat and one-sided.
Might change, of course, it's early in the book, but is anybody else seeing this too?
Everyman wrote: "Alana wrote: "I'm not done yet with the section, so I won't read everything above, but I'm finding it interesting so far, although I'll confess, the number of characters feels daunting to me! "My..."
If I found anything "flat," Everman, it would have to the second half of this first section... I was bored out of my gourd with the Lauderback/Balfour conversation, or Balfour's story rather. At this point, I don't see enough distinguishing one character from another; perhaps, this will change as we read further, but I don't foresee Catton's style in delivering her characters to be any different than what we've encountered.
I've made it through the first half of this section and for the most part I will call it painful and sleep inducing. I felt that the introductory scene of Moody entering the smoking room was unnecessarily long and detailed. I was intrigued my Moody's story of his father. And yes it's intriguing to determine how the ship and the men in this room are related.
Does everyone think that the characters seem stilted and unbelievable because the author is not a good/unpracticsed author, or because she is stylistically reinforcing that we are seeing everyone at all times through one of the character's eyes, complete with their own prejudices and reservations?In the first chapter I cannot decide who the narrator is, but it certainly leans towards Moody as we see more of his thought process. He seems narcisstic and prententious, automatically looking down on the men in the room even though they are his peers, but because he feels this way the story is portrayed this way.
Becky, that is so funny. I made a note in my book "narcissist". So I guess that means I agree
I was a bit late getting the book and just finished the 2 sections. I have to say that I was just reading a page or two before bed and felt like it was going to be a long slog. However, in the last day I've had more time to read for longer sections and liked it much better.Thanks for the astrology links......in the sphere in sphere diagram, the symbol for mercury in saggittarius is in the Balfour "pie" piece so Nicola, I think you are onto something. I don't know much about astrology so this aspect of the book is intriguing to me.
I thought the opening scene did set up an air of mystery. The reference to Moody's experiences on the Godspeed felt very gothic to me. I'm not sure if Victorian and gothic are similar, but I think the hint of supernatural leads me to that feeling. Also, the entire air of nothing is as it seems from the 12 men in the room to each of the stories that we hear.
The language for me is a mixed bag. I think that all of the description is very Dickensian. Catton does use some old-fashioned words and phrasing as well. It did bother me that she seems to mix with tenses......seemingly from paragraph to paragraph in some instances. I like the observation that it's like being on a boat. ( I really not sure how or why the "we" comes into play).
Regarding Moody, I wasn't sure how much of his story was actually true. I think the story about his father and brother was true, but I'm no sure about his losing his money. At that point, I though Moody realized the whole room was listening to him so I thought he might say that so people wouldn't think he had money.
In the first pages, I liked that the author hinted at several mysteries that would come up. But she's starting now to do it too often for my tasted. It's getting to the point of "yawn, another mysterious reference." All this stuff about Carver/Wells, who Lydia was married to (if anybody), and on and on. The last straw that made me add a nasty note on my Kindle (I seldom use the notetaking feature) was "And then there was the matter of the whore in the road. Was that event just a coincidence, or did it connect somehow to Crosbie Wells's untimely passing?" It's time, dear author, to just get on with telling the story.
Everyman wrote: "In the first pages, I liked that the author hinted at several mysteries that would come up. But she's starting now to do it too often for my tasted. It's getting to the point of "yawn, another my..."I agree with this comment Everyman. I think that is why it had a bit of a gothic feel, because gothic stories often use the "if I knew then, what I know now" story-telling device.
Good grief, this is complicated, with the multiple characters, astrology, mystery within mystery within mystery, tales told third-hand. ... frankly, at this point, I don't trust ANY of these people! It took me awhile to realize we don't KNOW what happened on the Godspeed yet; he kept referencing it so much that I thought I'd just slept through that part. I agree, she's a little wordy in places, although it's drawing me in a little more now. I almost get a Canterbury Tales feeling about it, like they are all going to take turns telling their story as it goes along?
I confess, I probably won't be able to follow the astrological aspects very well, so I'll probably depend on the rest of you to explain it all to me. Thank you to everyone who has posted insights on that so far!
Reading the Chunksters
Books mentioned in this topic
The Colour (other topics)War and Peace (other topics)
The God of Small Things (other topics)
Cloud Atlas (other topics)
NOS4A2 (other topics)
More...
I hope the discussion will gain a momentum and will be lively and interesting.
For the next two days we are discussion the first two ... let's call them ... chapters of this novel.
Here are some discussion starters.
1. How does the atmosphere of the opening pages affect you? Does the author create the atmosphere of mystery, and if yes, what kind of mystery? Is it the only mystery in the novel?
2. Who is the most intriguing character so far in the novel?
3. Why are there so many of them in the opening pages, but only very few of them are prominent in this section of the novel?
4. What do you think about the language of the novel? Is it modern or does Catton try to imitate the Victorian discourse?
5. What was the most memorable episode in this part of the novel?
I am looking forward to your comments. Please post your thoughts in any way you like, and the questions in the post are only here to generate a discussion.
Personally, I am intrigued by the narrative, as it hides too many unknown factors. The style is also deliberately too ornate and too detailed; on one hand, it makes it slightly difficult to follow all the descriptive passages, but, on the other hand, Catton does try to follow the canon of the Victorian fiction.