A Harlot High and Low - Part Two - Trouble on the Threshold - Part Three - How the Two Prisoners Take their Misfortune

[Deborah, Moderator]

This post is early. You are not behind! This weeks reading covers chapter headings Trouble on a Threshold thru Part 3, How the Two Prisoners Take Their Misfortune. Pages 243 thru 321.

Last sentence: "Such was the mental and physical condition of the two prisoners whose fate at that moment depended on Monsieur Camusot, examining magistrate of the Court of First Instance of the Seine, sovereign judge, during the time allowed him by the code of criminal procedure, of the smallest details of their existence; for he alone could allow the chaplain, the Conciergerie doctor or anyone else to communicate with them."

[Deborah, Moderator]

This post is also early. It should be posted on Tuesday. I'm going out of town for a few days to check on my father. I wanted to ensure I didn't hold up the process. You may not want to read further if you haven't finished this section.

Well, we have quite a few twists and turns in this segment. A suicide, a murder, Carlos and Lucien jailed. Plus all the intrigues along the way. Only one question this week:

How does the corruption of the society depicted by Balzac compare with out society today?

[Silver]

I was rather surprised by the death of Esther at least so early on within the book. I was never quite sure what ultimately would happen to her, though a happy outcome seemed unlikely. I always wondered if indeed she would somehow manage the money to allow her and Lucian to be together without Carlos and his schemes. But after her death, being that she was a main character I wonder exactly where will the novel go now?

Lydia I believe is truly the only sympathetic character within this book. Though we still do not see much of her character developed in the story. She was a completely innocent bystander who caught up in the crossfire, and what happened to her was vile.

I have to say I never really cared for Croentin, Contenson, or Peyrade, but after what happened to Lydia, I was rooting for them, and frankly thought that Carlos, Esther, Lucian and company should all just be thrown into a pot and boiled alive. Even if they where not all directly involved in what was done to Lydia I think they are all to a degree culpable in it.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Silver wrote: "I was rather surprised by the death of Esther at least so early on within the book. I was never quite sure what ultimately would happen to her, though a happy outcome seemed unlikely. I always wond..."

I was shocked at Esther's death

[Silver]

Deborah wrote: "I was shocked at Esther's death ."

Even though she frequently threatens to kill herself it was rather unexpected particularly considering the book was I presumed in a way named after her.

A Harlot High and Low I took as referring to Esther, though in a way one could see many of the characters in the story as being the "harlot" or like a harlot even if the term is most frequently attributed to women.

Lucian in a way could be seen as a Harlot so to speak. He does "sell" himself to Carlos, and is raised up from nothing only to be brought back down again when he is thrown in jail.

[Amy]

What do you guys think of what was happening to Nucingen? On one hand I felt sorry for him for being cheated out of so much money. on the other hand, he was a fool for going along with it.

[Silver]

Amy wrote: "What do you guys think of what was happening to Nucingen? On one hand I felt sorry for him for being cheated out of so much money. on the other hand, he was a fool for going along with it."

I have to admit that I found him to be so annoying (trying to understand what he was saying) that I didn't really feel sympathetic towards him.

What they were doing was wrong, but he was such a fool and in some ways so comical, that I couldn't bring myself to really care. I did not find him to be likable.

And there is the matter of his being perfectly willing to buy a woman regardless of her affection or lack there of for him.

So I felt like he kind of deserved it.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Amy wrote: "What do you guys think of what was happening to Nucingen? On one hand I felt sorry for him for being cheated out of so much money. on the other hand, he was a fool for going along with it."

He frustrates me with his dialog and greed.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Silver wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I was shocked at Esther's death ."

Even though she frequently threatens to kill herself it was rather unexpected particularly considering the book was I presumed in a way named aft..."

There's also the harlots who are high (kept mistresses) and low (those back on the street). I agree with your illustration on how it can also represent the men.

[Frances, Moderator]

I also found this a surprising section-I was not expecting Esther to die as she seems to be pivotal to the plot, and Lucien in prison effectively puts an end to his scheming.

The assault on Lydia was shocking in it's violence and realizing how far Carlos and Asia were willing to take their threats/vengeance-they effectively lost their leverage with Payraude-was it definite that he had been poisoned or is that speculation at this point?

I did not feel sorry for Nucingen-he has been robbing others for years and now has been made a dupe and a fool. He was clearly willing to buy Esther and only hoped that she would play along/pretend to love him.

There is tremendous irony in Esther dying just when she was inheriting the means by which she and Lucien could potentially have left and set up somewhere quietly on their own. It also seems somewhat unbelievable that, given her history and how practical she has been in other matters and the fact that Nucingen was an old man who would likely not be terribly demanding, she chose to die rather than to continue to live as his very well-kept mistress. It was even starting to look as if she might be able to see Lucien on the side. Balzac seems unable to decide between "Once a Harlot, always a Harlot" and "Esther as redeemed Angel".

[Silver]

Frances wrote: ". Balzac seems unable to decide between "Once a Harlot, always a Harlot" and "Esther as redeemed Angel.."

She did seem to have a very conflicted identity which perhaps did not entirely work, because she never fully committed to either one, or too easily changed between the two.

A part of me wondered if she would eventually become fond of Nucingen not that she would love him, or stop loving Lucian, but because of her practicality and being forced back into the roll of the Torpedo I thought she might come to appreciate the life of easy and security he offered her.

I thought part of her reason for killing herself was due to her being unable to cope with the idea of Lucian eventually marrying someone else (or perhaps the thought that he might in fact care more for someone else, or that particular lifestyle than he did for her).

[Amy]

I thought it was a bit contrived that Esther inherited the money. It would let Lucien off the hook financially without him deserving it.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Amy wrote: "I thought it was a bit contrived that Esther inherited the money. It would let Lucien off the hook financially without him deserving it."

I thought it sad that she never knows sh inherited. She would have had enough to have a life she wanted

[Robin P, Moderator]

I didn't realize how melodramatic Balzac is. We have kidnapping, poisoning, suicide, disguises, intrigues. I wonder if people reading it thought that high society was really so exciting. I suppose this was the tabloid or soap opera of the time.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Robin wrote: "I didn't realize how melodramatic Balzac is. We have kidnapping, poisoning, suicide, disguises, intrigues. I wonder if people reading it thought that high society was really so exciting. I suppose ..."

He certainly has a lot going on.