09/2015 Spring Snow Part 2 pages 101-200 (up to Chapter 28)

[Dioni]

How is everyone going with Spring Snow? I don't have the hard copy so I don't know for sure which page I'm in, but my kindle says 50%, and that's about 200 pages of nearly 400 page book, which I just reached yesterday :)

*** spoilers up to 50% / page 200 / Chapter 28 ***

I grew to really dislike Kiyoaki. I'm not usually one who needs to like characters in the book I read, but it's also rare for any character to give me such strong aversion like Kiyoaki. He is selfish, angsty, and childish. He doesn't think about anyone but himself. He's not even NICE to anyone. He's not nice to his friend Honda, he's not nice to his long serving servant Iinuma, he's not even nice to Satoko. I found that I have very little patience for portrayal of childishness, stupidity and pride of youth in a book - found it extremely annoying. I wanted to slap him every time he refused to read a letter or pick a call from Tadeshina/Satoko and sulked to no end. Get a grip, boy!

The last part of this section, where Kiyo and Satoko meet is very well done (and sexy!), so my sympathy for Kiyo came back a little. But again I thought Kiyoaki is being really selfish here. Everything he does is for himself and he is endangering Satoko's reputation and probably ruining her life.

Where are we going from here, I wonder? I do hope Kiyoaki get to be more mature and sympathetic as we read further.

Let me know all your thoughts!

[Joanne]

Dioni (Bookie Mee) wrote: "How is everyone going with Spring Snow? I don't have the hard copy so I don't know for sure which page I'm in, but my kindle says 50%, and that's about 200 pages of nearly 400 page book, which I ju..."

Dioni,

I have a much different reaction to Kiyoaki from you. In the context of the story, I see that he was raised away from his parents for a great deal of his early life. He was taught to be refined. Also, from an early age, many people loved him for his beauty. I think he is like some of those young child-actors around these days who grow up to be messed up. They don't have a normal childhood where they play with other kids a lot and just have fun.

I think that Satako is very mean to Kiyoaki at times and it hurts his pride. I haven't quite gotten to page 200 yet. However, just when it seemed that he was opening his heart to her, she injures his pride terribly. She makes him feel like he is not good enough and she has been playing with him all this time. It seems like that is a theme of this tale is that Satako likes to play with his head. She does it from the very beginning. It's not surprising that he wants to get back at her for doing it. She's done it since he's known her.

I can relate to the angst of his character also. I've had times in my life when it seems like angst is the normal state of being. Any time I start to be happy, I fear that it is going to be taken away. I've learned to deal with depression and angst much better lately. However, I do understand the type of personality that gravitates toward it. Sometimes it seems like depression is a deeper and more expressive emotion than happiness. A lot of art comes out of depression and dark moods. Sometimes being lifted out of it makes life feel too ordinary. As I said, that's not the way I am now but that's the way I was.

I don't create as much as I used to. I used to write a lot of songs, poetry and paint. Many times, these art forms were expressions of angst. I don't do much of expressive art now that I am not depressed very often. Instead, what I notice in myself is that I participate in the world more and I'm not locked up in myself.

In this way, I relate to Kiyoaki. I think he is really used to being locked up in himself. He only has one friend in school.

[Dioni]

Hi Joanne,

Interesting how personal experiences and characteristics really affect how you feel about a character. I'm on the other side of the scale, I'm generally a very happy person. I enjoy being creative, but I don't draw my inspiration or energy from being melancholy. Although I probably did until I was around mid 20s (I'm in mid 30s now :). Thank you for giving it another perspective.

Regarding what you said about Satoko:
I think that Satako is very mean to Kiyoaki at times and it hurts his pride. I haven't quite gotten to page 200 yet. However, just when it seemed that he was opening his heart to her, she injures his pride terribly. She makes him feel like he is not good enough and she has been playing with him all this time. It seems like that is a theme of this tale is that Satako likes to play with his head. She does it from the very beginning. It's not surprising that he wants to get back at her for doing it. She's done it since he's known her.

I tend to disagree on this. So far we only get this from Kiyoaki's perspective. The book is told in third person, but I feel it is more close third person on Kiyoaki's side, and the part about Satoko feels like it's described from Kiyoaki's perspective, so I don't just take it as it is, as he's so emo and angsty that I take him as somewhat unreliable narrator. It's mentioned numerous times how Satoko is mean, hurts his pride, or plays with him -- but I don't see this happening in the events described in the book, only from what Kiyo thinks of her, if that makes sense.

Satoko is 2 years older than Kiyoaki so I'm thinking a big part of him feeling "played" is caused by his being younger, mixed with his insecurity and lack of world experiences.

[Christian]

Kiyoaki is such a drama queen! What he really seems to want is an impossible love... He describes Satoko as someone who tries to hurt his pride, but we really don't see much of that. It rather seems like that's what he wishes she would do. He's not very likable, but he's the one driving the plot forward so I can accept that.

Oh and I couldn't help laughing at the following bit:

Kridsada spoke first, struggling both to regain his breath and to express himself in his scanty Japanese.
"Do you know what Chao P. and I were talking about just now?" he asked. "We were discussing the transmigration of souls."

HOW IS THIS SCANTY JAPANESE? And then he continues in English, but it makes no sense how great is command of English is (a foreign language for him):

[...] The austerities they practice are the works of paramita, one's good deeds to others, by means of which one crosses from this sphere to the sphere of total enlightenment. As a bodhisattva, Buddha is said to have lavished abundant grace on mankind. He was reincarnated in many guises and there are all sorts of stories about the good works he performed.

I know it's all over Literature (with a capital L), but I'm sure no one has ever talked like that. It's something that never fails to make me cringe when I read older texts (granted it's not even that old! Written in 1965!)

[Dioni]

So when you learn a new language you're not looking how to say "transmigration of souls" and explain Buddhism? Lol ;D

I agree that the text felt older than 1960s. I think someone asked in the other thread whether people feel the translation is a bit dated. But it's hard to say without checking the real text in Japanese.
It could be the translation, or it could just be Mishima's style.

[David]

Christian wrote: "Kiyoaki is such a drama queen!"

Of course he's a drama queen! He's a teenager!

I was shocked when I first heard that there were some readers who don't adore Kiyoaki. I think he's absoltuely perfect and one of the best representations of the teenage male I've ever read ... contrary, confused, incredibly selfish, naive, always pretending ... I think he's fabulous and one of Mishima's very best creations!

[Dioni]

David wrote: "I think he's absoltuely perfect and one of the best representations of the teenage male I've ever read ... contrary, confused, incredibly selfish, naive, always pretending ... I think he's fabulous and one of Mishima's very best creations!"

Well David, if you put it that way, yes he is a perfect representation of the teenage male ;)