A Harlot High and Low - Part Two - A Hundred Thousand Francs Invested in Asia - The Sort of Music Old Men Sometimes Hear at the Italians

[Deborah, Moderator]

This week's reading is from Part 2: A Hundred Thousand Francs Invested in Asia through The Sort of Music Old Men Sometimes Hear at the Italiens. Pages 165 through 242.

Last sentence: "This is what happened to Lucien that very evening."

[Casceil]

Yikes, I'm still trying to finish the week 2 reading!

[Deborah, Moderator]

Casceil wrote: "Yikes, I'm still trying to finish the week 2 reading!"

Take your time. I posted it early. Besides threads are always open

[Rose]

I am late too! :(
I will try to finish it tonight!

[Deborah, Moderator]

First, you are not late. The week starts on Tuesday. Plus the threads stay open so please don't worry about being late. I've posted the threads early due to the lack of chapter headings in some books and the need to post the last line of the reading.

I found this week's reading to be a bit time consuming due to the amount of narrative given to the Baron. One question that comes to mind while reading: is there an honest person among them? For me Esther comes the closest yet still makes some dubious choices.

Intrigues and counter intrigues abound. The Baron purchases Esther. Esther still hasn't given the Baron what he wants.

1. "Prettiness conceals horror" pg 165. What do you think Balzac means?

2. Was Esther trained for Lucien or to instead to be marketable to another?

3. Are the characters dishonest by nature or is it a result of life?

4. From where does Carlos get his power?

[Amy]

I found things really picking up in this section with the outrageous extortion and Esther joining in on it, instead of dwelling on her love all the time. I think Lucien is my least favorite character because he had no will of his own and is letting the woman he loves be sold off for his benefit.
I think the prettiness quote sums up all of the women characters in the book. Carlos' women are skilled at changing their appearances, the high-scociety ladies mask their true feelings and intentions behind social etiquette, and (I'm not sure if this is from next week's reading of this week's) the harlots who have lost their incomes go to elaborate lengths to still appear the same.
I thought Carlos originally put Esther in the school to keep her away from Lucien, but it's in keeping with his character that he was already thinking of selling her off. As soon as he heard that Nucingen was infatuated with Esther, he knew how to exploit that.
I think Esther and Carlos were born dishonest - Esther because that's how courtesans had to be, and Carlos because he's a psychopath, but I think the rest of the characters picked it up out of necessity.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Amy wrote: "I found things really picking up in this section with the outrageous extortion and Esther joining in on it, instead of dwelling on her love all the time. I think Lucien is my least favorite charact..."

It was this week's reading.

[Silver]

I just have to say that I think one of my all time favorite scenes was Europe kicking Conteson's ass. The last thing you expect in a 19th century novel is for a woman bust out with some martial arts moves. That was priceless.

Does anyone else think it is somewhat creepy, that while on the one hand the Baron states his willingness to be a like a father to Esther and then practically threatens to force himself upon her if she does not willingly consent to him?

I agree that Lucien is one of the most despicable characters in the book for his complete and total spinelessness.

I think that the dishonesty of the characters is bread in part by the society in which they live in, but in part I think it is just part of their nature. I think can always make the choice not to be dishonest, though it might prove to come with some difficult consequences. But there are some characters I think if living in different circumstances might not turn to dishonesty and others, particularly Carlos, I think would be dishonest in any society.

Lucian I think could have had the potential to be honest had he not come to fall into the clutches of the like of Carlos.

Esther I also think would be capable of being honest if she lived was placed within other circumstances. She was forced into dishonesty first by the sort of life she had to lead in which behind dishonest was a survival tactic, and later she is forced into by Carlos and her love for Lucian.

Asia and Europe I kind of feel like would probably always be dishonest. Though I have to say they are growing on me. They are to say the least interesting and entertaining.

[Casceil]

I've only made it a little way into this week's reading. The thing I have found most striking so far is just how stupid the Baron seems to be. He's so gullible, and so impulsive.

[Casceil]

I've read a bit further, and now realize that the Baron is the sort of financier for whom wild gambles are not unusual. I guess maybe he just has a different way of thinking about money than most people.

[Robin P, Moderator]

I'm having trouble believing in Esther as a real person. She starts out as the Torpedo, amoral but irresistible, undergoes a conversion, gets educated, then agrees to live as a virtual prisoner for years and is content. She is understandably upset when she is sold to the Baron but then she seems to be enjoying her finery and her power over him. She is really cruel to him and mocks him. She would never dare act that way to Carlos. These contradictory sides of her character just seem too extreme to me.

[Casceil]

Robin, I agree with you. She does not seem to have much independence of spirit, except when she does. I'm having trouble liking any of the characters in this story.

[Robin P, Moderator]

Part of this section was like a detective or spy story with people in disguise pretending to be other people and trying to get information from servants, or by intimidating each other. Like one character pretending to be English, while Carlos is a Frenchman pretending to be a Spanish priest, pretending to be a policeman, or whatever, I may have lost track!

[Frances, Moderator]

Yes, I find the various levels of intrigue hard to keep straight, and it is also a challenge to follow all the various characters and plots.

Esther is also something of a challenge to figure out-it is hard to believe that after 5 years she could still love the spineless and somewhat bland Lucien so passionately as to remain in seclusion for him all that time, and then to allow herself to be sold to provide him with a better life. It is hard to believe that the Baron would allow himself to be strung along as he has been, however she appears to have convinced him that she will eventually capitulate, and he does have the most beautiful mistress in Paris now to show off.

I also agree that the various disguises and deceptions is starting to feel a bit over the top. My understanding was that Esther was lured/bought into prostitution at a very young age, likely needed to do this to survive, and she now knows that she will likely never be able to be anything but a courtesan, so she does need to rely on her wits and her dishonesty to survive. I think Carlos' hold over Lucien stems from his having gradually lured him into illegal practices, and now Lucien knows that if he doesn't press forward, he could be arrested and hanged for his previous deceptions.

I think Esther was trained for eventual use to seduce others-Lucien already wanted her for a mistress and clearly she could never be his wife as he needed to marry money.