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The Mayor of Casterbridge
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Mayor of Casterbridge: chs. X-XIX (wk. 2)
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Denise
(last edited Mar 16, 2014 11:23PM)
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Mar 16, 2014 11:23PM
Please discuss chapters XX - XIX. Please avoid spoilers from later in the novel!
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Renee wrote: "I'm really caught up in the story. The business with Donald Farfrae surprised me, but I figured something was bound to happen. Henchard was just too taken by him. But, poor Elizabeth And Donald. I ..."The way things happen with Farfrea revel to me that in spite of his his giving up drinking and his regrets over his past mistakes at the core Henchard really hasn't changed and he is still the same, and perhaps still hasn't really learned his lesson. At first he appears as this changed man, but to me he rapidly devolves into someone rather unlikeable.
As Farfrae gains popularity Henchard becomes jealous, and he begins to act towards Farfrae much as he did with his wife at the start. He starts having quarrels with Farfrae and as he had seemingly often threatened to sell his wife he begins to make threats of wanting to get rid of Farfrae until he does ultimately drive Farfrae away the same as he had finally forced his wife to leave with another man.
Mod
Certainly, his behaviors seem rash and unfounded. So far, he has done only one thing I've liked him for, and that was to "marry" his wife, so his daughter could be spared the shame of knowing her true past.
Renee wrote: "Yes. One minute he can't get enough of the younger man's company, the next he's so filled with jealousy that he dismisses him without explanation or common courtesy. Harsh. Perhaps the alcohol was ..."I do think that alcohol does only serve to enhance certain characteristics rather than really altering who a person is. When sober a person might be able to better control certain impulses towards anger, violence, etc.. and while drunk these traits simply have no check valve, but I think alcohol can truly make a person act against their own nature.
I think that his reactions to Farfrae illustrates the fact that Henchard is just a harsh/difficult person in general and perhaps the alcohol makes that even worse, but he really is a petty person who does like to seek to place blame on others for things going wrong in his own life.
Also there is the incident which first triggered the argument between Farfrae and Henchard, because Farfrae thought Henchard was being too brutal in his punishment of one of the workers.
Silver wrote: "Renee wrote: "Yes. One minute he can't get enough of the younger man's company, the next he's so filled with jealousy that he dismisses him without explanation or common courtesy. Harsh. Perhaps th..."Henchard is a very interesting character to be sure. In Ch 11 he acknowledges his "shady, headstrong, disgraceful life as a young man" and it appears that while his 21 year self-imposed sobriety is certainly an attempt to correct his life, he still deals with demons. His rather instant friendship with Donald Farfrae and almost as instant initial falling out with Farfrae hint that whatever demon it is that motives Henchard is more than merely his past struggles with alcohol.
With the reunion of Henchard with Susan and Elizabeth-Jane Hardy is providing the reader with much to anticipate. Donald, Susan and Elizabeth-Jane all commence their time in Casterbridge at the hotel called The Three Mariners. I believe the hotel was not named by chance. These three people will chart the course of the novel with Henchard. Rough seas ahead?
Yes, very nice, and of course there's been reference to another sailor whom you haven't named. I'm also taken with Hardy's mentioning, in chapter 19, gallows and hangings and chapter 14's description of public executions. There's a suggestion of punishment for sins.
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I so remember the scene where Farfrae stands up for the continuously late worker, but I thought it also spoke to Henchard's rashness and poor management. Both because he thought that public humiliation was an appropriate response for the infraction, and because he could not take having his irrational demand thwarted by his second-in-command. A good leader should expect their second to reign them in where appropriate. Ahab and his crew may have fared better, if he could have been tempered by Starbuck.
Although Susan seems incapable of doing anything mean, I do think it was cruel to hide from her husband the true revelation of Elizabeth-Jane. Wasn't it somewhat cowardly to not share the truth (except via letter) to be read after she was gone and Elizabeth-Jane safely married?
Karen wrote: "Although Susan seems incapable of doing anything mean, I do think it was cruel to hide from her husband the true revelation of Elizabeth-Jane. Wasn't it somewhat cowardly to not share the truth (e..."I think she did it to try and protect her daughter and she already knows her husbands temperament. I think she feared what might become of Elizabeth-Jane if Henchard rejected her after Susan was dead. Elizebeth needed Henchard's protection and finicaial support until she is married.
Silver wrote, " I think she did it to try and protect her daughter and she already knows her husbands temperament. I think she feared what might become of Elizabeth-Jane if Henchard rejected her after Susan was dead."That is true. However, the deception started before the "remarriage". But they were very poor. And times were very different then in many ways. How much help was there really for the poor? I'm sure many decisions were made then for security that may not be considered quite so much today.
Mod
It's an unkind deception, but not monstrous. He had no family. Had thrown his away. Here was a perfectly lovely person to raise as his own... Except he's an ass. And, so it eats at him that she's not the daughter he tossed.
Abby wrote: "Yes, very nice, and of course there's been reference to another sailor whom you haven't named. I'm also taken with Hardy's mentioning, in chapter 19, gallows and hangings and chapter 14's descripti..."Abby
You are right. Hardy does use foreshadowing in many and various ways. I'm guessing you have finished the book as I have. It's difficult to hold back some comments (spoilers) but, at the same time, going through the book in weekly bits highlights some of Hardy's techniques much more. It's a great novel.
Renee wrote: "Susan may also have felt that he "owed" her something for his part in putting her into her alternate life. ie, She wouldn't have a second daughter by another man, if he had abided by his vows. Perh..."I felt more sympathetic to Elizabeth-Jane in the deception than Henchard. In a way it robbed her of her real father the man who really loved her and made her think that she had some daughterly duty to a man who dosen't even want her.
Mod
Susan has turned out to be a much more complex character than she seemed. Her impoverished daughter may not have fared well as an orphan in their world. Additionally, she seems to have ideas/manners that put her beyond what her station would be in that situation. Susan's plan is to protect her through this deception. (I wonder if Susan already suspected she was sick?) And, it is a pretty tight plan, but for the letter.
Elisabeth Jane was not supposed to be told that Henchard was her real father. He broke his promise in this, as well. Susan intended EJ to have both the memories of her loving father and the protection of her step-father (who would do so because he believed paternity). She tried so hard to give her daughter the best of both.
Renee wrote: "Yes, the memory of her loving father replaced by a duty to the man she has now been told is her "real" father (even though he's not) is unfortunate. If only Henchard had not broken his DEATH BED PR..."I agree. In Susan, Hardy has created a remarkable character. If we consider Susan's decision to "accept" willingly her sale at the country fair as being as much for her E-J as herself, then Susan is further elevated as a selfless and caring woman. She is the opposite of Henchard and her actions cast her in a greater light and plunge Henchard into even more darkness of character.
Mod
I hadn't thought if that, but certainly the comparison was intentional, as with Farfrae and what we know of the sailor as husband/father.
I also think it's interesting that Susan was apparently under the impression that her sale was binding under the law as a legal marriage, and continued in that belief until a neighbor brought it into question. She was certainly unworldly (or perhaps just uneducated, as women often were) and making the best of things.
Henchard has a way of treating people as disposable. Susan is the biggest example of this but also Farfrae, Henchard's fiancé and even the first manager he replaced with Farfrae. This, to me, is very telling of his character.In Chapter 12 I find Henchard to be filled with contradiction. An example is he has a super secret meeting with Susan because he is worried about appearances yet freely tells the near stranger Farfrae his shame. Hmmm
Marnie wrote: "Henchard has a way of treating people as disposable. Susan is the biggest example of this but also Farfrae, Henchard's fiancé and even the first manager he replaced with Farfrae. This, to me, is v..."Marnie
You are right. Henchard's world view does not extend much past the end of his nose.
Marnie wrote: "Henchard has a way of treating people as disposable. Susan is the biggest example of this but also Farfrae, Henchard's fiancé and even the first manager he replaced with Farfrae. This, to me, is v..."That is a good point about Henchard viewing people as being disposable. And even though I dislike him and the way he does treat and view other people, he does exhibit remorse and regret over his actions.
He knows his actions are wrong, but the fact that he knows it is wrong makes it worse that he continues to act that way towards others, but it seems he cannot help himself.
He regretted what he did to Susan and his daughter so much that he gave up drinking (though still hasn't really changed). And then he does feel guilt over his treatment of Elizabeth-Jane after he learns of the truth.
Mod
I agree Renee. Henchard is very impulsive and then regretful like an abuser. He is also very petty- his treatment of the tardy employee comes to mind. All this is building in my mind a sense that Henchard is going to do something he can't take back. Hardy is building in me a strong sense of foreboding for this character.
I love Peter's idea that The Three Mariners pub is purposefully named - very clever!I found the naming of a child after it's dead sibling as creepy. Was very surprised to see Renee say it was common practice in the time period. How bizarre! A different name would certainly have prevented much of the misunderstanding and complications we have found in the story.
I love the quote from Chapter 12 when Henchard says to Susan "Judge me by my future works" ... we the reader most definitely will!
In Chapter 15 there is a surprise about Henchard's character when Farfrae learns that he "had kept Abel's old mother in coals and snuff all the previous winter". Henchard seems to mostly treat people harshly and ride roughshod over their feelings, so this seemed an oddity.
I have been following all the comments so far. Definitely not praise worthy but I think Henchard is not a bad person. He is thoughtless and prone to sudden fits of jealousy and rage. But if you see he has always tried to make amends. He did go back in search of his wife the next day. He did leave word with the furmity woman so that Susan may find her way back to him. He though domineering, does try to make Farfrae more comfortable in a new town. He helps Abel Whittle's family. He does marry Susan again so that he may protect her and Elizabeth Jane. I think all these are being overlooked. I don't mean to condone his actions but these are facts too.
Mod
I think the things you mention are what make him a tragic character... And will probably be what makes for the tragedy of the story. Henchard does have a better nature, as your evidence shows, but continuously acts/reacts rashly out of anger, vanity, and arrogance.
His "good angel" is what draws people to him, but then the "bad angel" kicks them in the teeth. It doesn't make sense to continually allow yourself to be vulnerable to the person who kicks you, because, while they're sorry after, they're likely to do it again. And again.
I don't see any kind of happiness for Henchard (or those like him). He would have to completely over-master his temper, and impulsiveness, recognizing that these are faults in his nature. Despite all his remorse and good intention, I don't expect enough introspection for him to change. In fact, introspection is not in his nature either. He is indeed tragic, and, perhaps also, tragically realistic.
Renee wrote: "Bharathi-I think the things you mention are what make him a tragic character... And will probably be what makes for the tragedy of the story. Henchard does have a better nature, as your evidence ..."
Renee
I think your phrase "tragically realistic" is excellent. Henchard's character and actions may swing from one extreme to its opposite but it is, nevertheless, a very accurate, if perhaps slightly exaggerated, portrait of much of Humankind.
Renee-I agree with you completely. I love how you make the good angel bad angel comparisons. Also, I agree with you and Peter in that it is a realistic portrait of humankind.
This is especially true in the case of Henchard, who was once a poor hay trusser with little or no education. Henchard's generosity and enterprise, give him success and friends, but the flaws in his character, and his lack of gentleness, makes them difficult to sustain.
I think with few characters and the limited interaction between them, Hardy is able to paint this very human picture. This is his true genius.
At the end of chapter 18 when they were gossiping at the town pump reminds me that people haven't really changed that much in all these years. The Victorian version of the water cooler.
Helen_in_the_uk wrote: "I found the naming of a child after it's dead sibling as creepy. Was very surprised to see Renee say it was common practice in the time period. How bizarre! "It was indeed common practice, as I know from my genealogical research on my English family (have gone back into the 1600s). There are numerous examples of a two or in a few cases three Henry or Mary (common family names) children in the same family, and when you look closely you see that the first one died before the second was born. In a few cases the first child was older before dying, up to eight or ten. Normally the first child was named after the father, so if that child died the father either had to name another child after him, or have no child with his name. And similarly for the mother. Since adults were seldom called by their first names, this didn't cause as much confusion as it would today. (Even wives and husbands called each other Mr and Mrs.)
Bharathi wrote: "I have been following all the comments so far. Definitely not praise worthy but I think Henchard is not a bad person. He is thoughtless and prone to sudden fits of jealousy and rage. But if you se..."Excellent points. Hardy is very good at creating multi-faceted characters, with both good and bad, as is true of most people. His main characters are almost never simplistic, pure good or bad.
Bharathi wrote: "I have been following all the comments so far. Definitely not praise worthy but I think Henchard is not a bad person. He is thoughtless and prone to sudden fits of jealousy and rage. But if you se..."I also think that Henchard is not really bad. He is a rough and thoughtless man, simple in his reactions. When he thinks of something, it has to come out, without his considering how it will affect others, or even himself. As a result of his tendency to alienate others, he also seems to me an almost desperately lonely man. I think that is why he seizes upon the instant friendship with Farfrae, and also why he can't resist telling Elizabeth-Jane that she is really his daughter.
I found it interesting that when confronted with a surprising revelation, he has an initial gut reaction, and then on second thought starts wondering if it is really true. He did this when he found out that Susan was in town, and also when he read Susan's letter about Elizabeth-Jane.
Marnie wrote: "At the end of chapter 18 when they were gossiping at the town pump reminds me that people haven't really changed that much in all these years. The Victorian version of the water cooler."I love this analogy!
I so much want to believe in Henchard as a truly reformed character. His repentance off hard liquor for so many years leads me to believe that he is sincere in his turning over a new leaf. His jealousy towards the Scotsman is disappointing, though perhaps understandable. He has in many ways drawn a jealousy of spirit upon himself in successfully selling his wife to another man. I so wish that he could get his head together, but I confess that I gasped at the reading of Susan's posthumous letter. That would be the greatest shock for any, including the most saintly, to cope with. He is certainly a screwed up man, but I keep wishing the best for him, even though this is as likely as palm trees in the North Pole. Oh dear, I'm getting attached to these characters; investing too much in them.
What seems really lacking in Henchard is an ability to love someone. The closest to 'love' I see is his fascination and admiration for Farfrae, but we see how easily his affection can change when his pride is hurt. It seems he must always be first. He is always the most important person in his life. Selfless actions and motives seem tellingly missing. And he does make good attempts to do the right thing at times, but it isn't because it sits deep in the soul, but because he's punishing himself or he knows what society expects. There's always a martyr-syndrome in his sacrifices, as if he holds in mind that he isn't doing this willingly.
I'm not trying to paint him as a black character, I do love how Hardy makes all his characters realistic, not caricatures. But I feel pity for a grown man who has never learned to love - truly love - another.
Mod
Yes Trudy, I agree about his inability to love (well, apart from himself) and as you and Renee agree, he is a flawed character with whom it is easy to have empathy. He is not simply a caricature. I like that.
somehow I couldn't have any empathy with that man. it was since the start, and that's probably because he has dumped his daughter, and I'm biased here. I had that happen to me, so I can't pity men who do that. I wonder if I would have sympathized with him had I not had this background. For me, it seemed like what happens to him is well deserved and a due punishment.. he ends up doing many bad things, after all.
