The Dark Forest
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Events/details that look strange/illogical to you? (SPOILER)
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1] Did Ye Wenjie figure out the entire dark forest theory? She had the axioms, the two important theorems and she was very intelligent woman, so I would be quite surprised if she did not figure out the dark forest theory herself. If so, then why did she pass on this information to someone else? Well, one answer to this question could be that she did not figure it out before her death, although somewhat unsatisfactory.
2] When Ye Wenjie decided to pass on the information, why did she choose Luo Ji of all people? I am sure there could have been better people than Luo Ji who might have been actually preferrable, but why Luo Ji? Also, Ye Wenjie, after passing on the information, says "My duty is done or something to that effect." What did she mean? Has she seen some kind of future where she knows what she needs to do? Maybe it is just an idiom or a common usage in China, then it probably means nothing.
Let me answer these two question together:
Ye Wenjie chose Luo Ji at random, as mentioned in the book: "I have no time" around the sentence you quoted (BTW that's not an idiom).
It's implied that she had realized the DF theory just before the meeting in which she was arrested. She had ominous feeling about that meeting, not because of the ambush she might not know, but because of the confrontation she was going to raise against the Adventists. She wanted to "see" her daughter for possibly the last time and ran into Luo Ji there. She felt urged to pass out her enlightenment before that meeting when she still had a chance.
3] Luo Ji published his work on cosmic sociology well before he became a wall facer. And yet, it seems his life was under no threat until he was made into a wall facer. Why is that? In fact, How did Trisolarans come to know about Luo Ji in the first place?
No, he didn't. Read his conversation with his ONS girl again and you'll find that he was just about to start the topic when the trisolaris crisis began. Then there were too many researched in this field all of sudden and he gave up because he saw it no longer a great opportunity to show off in it.
The sophons must have had a close look following Ye Wenjie (according to Evans' suggestion). That's how Trisolarans got to know Luo Ji when he met her.
4] It was explained in the book that Trisolarans don't understand the concept of lie. So, they couldn't have figured out the concept of chain of suspicion. I am suspecting here that Evans helped the Trisolarans out with the Dark Forest Theory. Although, in the end, the conversation is shown as if the Trisolarans figured out the Dark Forest theory on their own, which is suspect.
The point concerned here is the chain of suspicion, right?
The chain of suspicion is based on not-contacting, but not lying. They are two different things, and the Trisolarans know the former - refer to the in-war concealment part in their dialogue with Evans.
They figured out the DF theory by themselves, and let Evans know it before they came to realize the existence of lying.
5] What happened to the defeatist attitude of the people converted by Hines? It was suspected that they may have gone into hiding, but it wasn't explored further. It was also possible that they all died out during the Great Ravine. However, it was sort of a loose thread, that may be utilized in the third book quite possibly.
They are called imprinters. Many of us think that their greatest contribution in this book is to complete Zhang Beihai's secret plot.
No other traces of them are mentioned in this book. I'm not going to tell you whether this "loose" thread (although I don't think it loose solely because of the point above) will continue in the third book. I'll leave it to you to find it out later ;)
6] Luo Ji had requested to be awoken from hibernation once his spell had worked out, which means he should have been awoken around Year 100 (50 years for the message to travel to the star and 50 years to observe the effect, but instead he was awoken in Year 200. Why? Of course, during Year 100, Earth would have been in great turmoil and hence did not care much for hibernators which is understandable but then Luo Ji need not have been awoken even during Year 200. Once explanation for this to happen is because Hines wanted to be awoken as soon as they had computers capable of doing simulation the kind he could use to understand brain which is quite possibly around Year 200. But I guess SFJC wanted to stop the Wallfacer project, so they decided to get even Luo Ji out of hibernation, so that they can put forward in front of the SFJC hearing to stop Wallfacer project. But this is all speculation, no concrete reason was given and even Shi Qiang's awakening from hibernation was quite a surprise. It was possible that his awakening was requested by his son, but these events which mattered a lot because Luo Ji survived the virus attack only because of Shi Qiang.
Your memory of the time sequence is not correct. The star which Luo Ji cursed could be destroyed as early as Year 100+, but not necessarily that early.
In the book, it was destroyed only 51 years before Luo Ji's awakening (or observable 1 year before that).
Luo Ji was awoken at that moment simply because the SFJC wanted to call an end to the Wallfacer project at that time.
Shi Qiang's awakening time was not explained in the book. That's true.
7] The final project that Luo Ji used to threaten the Tri Solarans was originally suggested by SFJC, the fact that it could be used to send a message outward was something Luo Ji could not have known upfront. This was a bizarre random co-incidence that worked out in favour of Luo Ji. I wish there was an explanation for why SFJC suggested that project.
It was a lucky co-incidence, but there were also plenty of explanations why SFJC wanted him in that project - at least plausible enough to me.
Thanks for the explanations. However, I guess it is still true that there are three random co-incidences that just happened to work out - 1] Ye Wenjie giving Luo Ji the axioms and the theorems 2] Awakening of Shi Qiang 3] The SFJC recommending a very particular project that can be utilized to even send messages. I don't like random coincidences in stories; deus-ex-machina devices don't sit well with me.
As I said, 1] Ye Wenjie felt urged to pass out her enlightenment. If she had met another person, the story would still go on, just with the hero with a different name;
3] There were plenty of explanations why SFJC wanted Luo Ji in that project - at least plausible enough to me.
Point 2 is really hard to explain. I've raised a question in a Chinese forum and let's wait to see if we can get some arguments other than a pure co-incidence.
Ryan wrote: "As I said, 1] Ye Wenjie felt urged to pass out her enlightenment. If she had met another person, the story would still go on, just with the hero with a different name;"
True, but there is no guarantee that the person would be able to figure out the Dark Forest theory. The fact that Luo Ji was a capable person enough to be able to figure out the Dark Forest theory and he just happened to be around Yang Dong's grave is still a co-incidence in my book :-/
Ryan wrote: "3] There were plenty of explanations why SFJC wanted Luo Ji in that project - at least plausible enough to me."
I understand what you are saying. However, think about it this way, there are multiple ways to be able to track the probes. From all the possible available methods, the one chosen had the alternative of being able to send a message and that SFJC chose that exact particular method for tracking probe and none of the other methods available to them still feels like a co-incidence.
Ryan wrote: "Point 2 is really hard to explain. I've raised a question in a Chinese forum and let's wait to see if we can get some arguments other than a pure co-incidence."
Thanks.
The novel is unusually intricate or subtle for a sci-fi book. For instance, what's Yang Dong's relationship to Luo Ji? Were they high school sweethearts or in any other way close? Why would Luo Ji go out of his way to visit Yang Dong's grave?Another part is the Garden of Eden... there are enough hints to assume it was Galanin's estate before he felt it required requisition.
I haven't read the first book, so I don't really get Ye, but somehow it seemed as though she wanted to make amends for her actions. It absolutely seems like a chance meeting, though. Another part is that even though Ye had the theory herself, it was unimplementable and untestable, and if it were released on her part, it would have minimal credibility. Imagine what would have happened if Luo Ji finished his thesis in cosmic sociology or brought it open source. Luo Ji had to become really desperate before being ready to gamble, and that's what it was at the end, with Trisolaris being sufficiently afraid of the intervention of a thicd party to accede to Earth's terms.
Part three, Luo Ji had enough time, and with the ETO gone he could pretty much try anything he wanted. That the SFJC started project snow at that particular time was a coincidence, but the principle needed was already understood; the only thing needed was a means to implement.
One thing I felt was unrealistic about the novel was Rey Diaz's death and Tyler's suicide. When Shi tells Kent about Luo Ji's unusual psychological constitution, that's believable, but Diaz and Tyler must both have faced far worse odds and there was no reason for them not to go back to square one and try again once Wallbroken.
Luo Ji himself was wallbroken by Trisolaris' probe, but he didn't give up, and eventually an opportunity fell into his lap. There's no reason Hines, Tyler, or Diaz couldn't have done the same; for instance, with post-Ravine society's resources and technology, Diaz's shoot-Mercury-to-destroy-the-solar-system was viable. That's probably the biggest flaw.
Arun wrote: "Thanks for the explanations. However, I guess it is still true that there are three random co-incidences that just happened to work out - 1] Ye Wenjie giving Luo Ji the axioms and the theorems 2] A..."The Awakening of Shi Qiang happened way before Luo Ji's. Shi Qiang's awakening is because his illness can be treated after the progress of technology. But Luo Ji's awakening is because UN want to put an end to Wallfacer Project, which happened later. So when Shi Qiang heard about Luo Ji's awakening, he decided to see his friend. There is no coincidence in that.
Vanon wrote: "The novel is unusually intricate or subtle for a sci-fi book. For instance, what's Yang Dong's relationship to Luo Ji? Were they high school sweethearts or in any other way close? Why would Luo Ji ..."About Tyler: I felt that Tyler's suicide is a little out of place too in the english edition. But in the Chinese edition, Tyler's plan is quite different. And in the Chinese edition, after Tyler's plan is exposed to the whole world, I think there is enough reason for him to kill himself.
About Diaz: Please pay attention to what the Wallbreaker said about why Diaz's plan won't work. The idea of shoot-Mercury-to-destroy-the-solar-system itself can work. But even using all the resources humanity can get can't build enough bombs. That's why "the Lord doesn't care".
"Your nature is that of a crude man. And this crudeness is revealed in the basis of this plan. It's greedy. Humanity doesn't have the ability to manufacture so many stellar hydrogen bombs. Even if all of Earth's industrial resources were exhausted, it wouldn't produce even one-tenth of that number. And a million bombs is far from enough to decelerate Mercury into the sun."
But his plan has left enough bombs for the Snow project and the cradle system he used inspired Luo Ji. He indeed is a tragedy.
About Hines: Hines simply didn't fail. He won even his Wallbreaker found out about his plan. Because his plan worked and no one can do anything about it. He and Luo Ji are the only two Wallfacer who have succeed. And I think you'll find him more successful after reading the 3rd book. The Imprinted created by his plan are secretly among the military and helped Zhang Beihai. Zhang Beihai is able to hijack a spaceship and run away due to the threat of Imprinted.
And NOTICE this very important fact: When what all the soldiers wanted is to confront and capture the Trisolaris' probe, Blue Space is the only ship that asks to pursuit Zhang Beihai. Think about that for a second. The book didn't say it out loud but I think it's obvious that the people at Blue Space are Imprinted. You'll get more proof in 3rd book. And Blue Space are the only 2 survivors of the Battle of Darkness. It's without doubt that Hines has successfully preserved a seed of hope for humanity. He and Zhang Beihai complete each other's plan.
The wallbreaker said that in the context of 21st century humanity. In the post-ravine era, simply giving Diaz access to Jupiter's helium-hydrogen atmosphere would be enough for stellar hydrogen bombs. The joke was that there was a rapid upgrading in capability since the ravine era, but while it wasn't enough to deal with Trisolaris it might have made Diaz's scorched earth threat viable.
About Diaz: I'm afraid I can't buy either opinion of yours. Please note that he didn't give up. It's the world, via PDC, that gave him up. The modern humanity thought his plan was against the basic human rights thus illegal and unacceptable. So did Diaz's people who killed him.A considerable portion of the novel elaborated the humanity, and this is a part the effort.
Luo Ji's strategy was basically the same as Ray Diaz's, just in a completely different method. Luo Ji learned from Diaz's lesson so that he insisted, firmly, not to disclose the mechanism (the Dark Forest theory) of his plot. Otherwise he would have been killed like Diaz. It's only after he had set up the threat that he revealed the theory, but it was too late for the rest of the humanity to doubt him - he had become the same lethal threat to them as he was to the Trisolarans.
About Tyler and Hines, I agree with Cong.
Cong wrote: "Arun wrote: "Thanks for the explanations. However, I guess it is still true that there are three random co-incidences that just happened to work out - 1] Ye Wenjie giving Luo Ji the axioms and the ..."That's basically what I got from the my translated thread, too.
About Diaz; the American response to a Soviet invasion of Western Europe was thermonuclear war until the advent of modern tanks, so the sociological response to destroying the solar system seems excessive. You are correct that once Diaz was wallbroken he was first dismissed by the PDC then lynched by Venezuelans, but he had enough space to devise a countereffort to being wallbroken. From his relief at returning to Venezuela you can see obviously that this is a man who appreciates having lost his burden, but from the description of the immense pressures it's understandable.One other problem with the Diaz plan is that even if it could be pulled off successfully, it could still fail to Trisolarian ultra-tech. It's possible that they have technology in their toolkit sufficient to deal with an expanded stellar atmosphere, the probe's strong force already seems enough to deal with an immense quantity of energy, and even though all the planets might fall into the sun, the Trisolarians could use a Wandering-Earth-Style planet mover to bring their home planets forward.
Luo Ji's plan has a superiority; it uses the technology of other races, presumably more advanced than the Trisolarians. Whereas the Trisolarians could deal with potential de-orbiting events, they are merely a single-system civilization themselves, despite their clarketech. It stands to reason that the Trisolarians, having caught the attention of more advanced alien races, would put themselves in the position of the humans in Dark Forest with essentially no way out.
About Hines, you are both correct, about Tyler, if you agree with Cong there you agree partially with me.
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About Hines escape plan, one problem does remain. How do you know the relevant ships haven't been tracked with sophons? When Trisolarians finally capture Earth, they will also capture the human drive technology, find ways to upgrade it with their own superior science, and now the Escapists once again become vulnerable.
Vanon wrote: "About Hines escape plan, one problem does remain. How do you know the relevant ships haven't been tracked with sophons? When Trisolarians finally capture Earth, they will also capture the human dri..."Yes, the Sophons are in the two ships. Earth and Trisolarians will both take actions regarding the two ships. But you'll have to wait for the 3rd book :)
Cong wrote: "Vanon wrote: "About Hines escape plan, one problem does remain. How do you know the relevant ships haven't been tracked with sophons? When Trisolarians finally capture Earth, they will also capture..."Vanon: A keen observation! Not to spoil things I have nothing more to add besides Cong's comment.
But this is only the SECOND important issue I've expected to arose in this thread ;)
Vanon wrote: "The wallbreaker said that in the context of 21st century humanity. In the post-ravine era, simply giving Diaz access to Jupiter's helium-hydrogen atmosphere would be enough for stellar hydrogen bom..."The Lord doesn't care! Their technology made them have no need of earth. What they only need is a stable solar system. They can live anywhere in this solar system, in Jupiter's obit or even on Pluto. Anywhere in our solar system is a much better environment than Trisolarians own home.
Arun wrote: "Thanks for the explanations. However, I guess it is still true that there are three random co-incidences that just happened to work out - 1] Ye Wenjie giving Luo Ji the axioms and the theorems 2] A..."Ryan wrote: "6] Luo Ji had requested to be awoken from hibernation once his spell had worked out, which means he should have been awoken around Year 100 (50 years for the message to travel to the star and 50 ye..."
Shi Qiang was to be put into hibernation until a cure for his cancer is found => a cure for cancer was found around the time Luo Ji was awoken-- that was how amazingly advanced/happy the humans were when they thought the Wallfacers were no longer needed! LOL...
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When asked, he listed 7 questions. I'm going to post them one by one and post my reply after each of them.
If you find more seemingly strange/illogical events, please go ahead to reply in this thread and let's discuss them.