2015 - October - Theme Read - Aspects of the Third Reich

[Manray9]

Mike wrote: "Reading about German Airborne units in Heaven & Hell: The War Diary of a German Paratrooper

Ground level (o..."

Sounds good, Mike.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

A fine choice Dimitri!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I have started my theme book for the month, as I mentioned earlier I decided to go with my newest acquisition:

by Nicholas Stargardt

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

In my current book on Germany during WW2 the author mentions the 'Children's murder at Freiburg'. For those who have not heard of this incident and the role of Nazi propoganda here are a few links of interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...

http://www.spitecast.com/aemathisphd/...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

How are people going with their theme books?

I a quite enjoying my book; The German War by Nicholas Stargardt. I have found a few reviews which may interest some group members as they give a good indication of the books content:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015...

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ent...

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-re...

by Nicholas Stargardt

[Lilo]

I have now finished reading "It Can't Happen Here", by Sinclair Lewis, and have also finished writing my review, which I wrote in installments. In case anyone is interested, here is the link to my review:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Dimitri]

I finished The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy; review in progress...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

This story was quote by the author in the book I'm currently reading; The German War and really brought home to me the depth of depravity within German society during WW2. The account is in relation to the wife of an SS officer posted in Lwów, Poland:

"In the summer of 1943, she was returning from shopping in Lwów when she saw a group of nearly naked children crouching by the side of the road. She stopped the carriage, calmed the six frightened children and took them home, where she gave them some food and waited for her husband to return. When he did not turn up, she took matters into her own hands. Pocketing an old service revolver which her father had given her as a parting gift, Erna Petri led the children through the woods to a pit where she knew other Jews had been shot and buried. There she lined them up in front of the ditch and went along the line firing into the back of each child's neck. She remembered that after the first two, the others 'began to cry', but 'not loudly, they whimpered'."

by Nicholas Stargardt



Some information on Erna Petri:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,73...

http://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?perso...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

From Goebbels during a meeting with his key media managers, rethinking his own propaganda effort to date:

"Since the beginning of the war our propaganda has followed the following erroneous path:

First year of the war: we have won.
Second year of the war: we shall win.
Third year of the war: we must win.
Fourth year of the war: we cannot be defeated."

[Liam]

O.k., I know I'm starting a bit late, but it's a short book, and I've wanted to read it for some time: . This theme read is as good a reason as any!

[Bev]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This story was quote by the author in the book I'm currently reading; The German War and really brought home to me the depth of depravity within German society during WW2. The account is in relatio..."

Dimitri wrote: "I finished The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy; review in progress..."

How horrible!

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Liam wrote: "O.k., I know I'm starting a bit late, but it's a short book, and I've wanted to read it for some time: [bookcover:The army, politics and society in Germany, 1933-45: Studies in the army's relation ..."

Better late than never :)

[Lilo]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This story was quote by the author in the book I'm currently reading; The German War and really brought home to me the depth of depravity within German society during WW2. The account is in relatio..."

UNBELIEVABLE! I had never heard of this story.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Here is a funny story from my book in relation to some suggestions from the German public to the Propaganda Ministry for ideas and drafts for leaflets to be dropped over the Allied armies:

" ... But as an old doctor from Hamburg sadly lamented, there was always the danger that the English would not get the message: so, any leaflet would have to address them 'in the style of someone who is slow on the uptake' and even then it might all fail, because 'We Germans are used to talking to educated nations ... The English-speaking people do not come up to this level'."

[Dimitri]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This story was quote by the author in the book I'm currently reading; The German War and really brought home to me the depth of depravity within German society during WW2. The account is in relatio..."

It is a good thing Stalin, Morgenthau & myself were not solely responsible for the fate of Germany.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

The author of the book; The German War mentioned the Brunn 'Death March' that occurred at the end of the war but which I don't think I have read about previously:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brno_de...

http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraf...

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The author of the book; The German War mentioned the Brunn 'Death March' that occurred at the end of the war but which I don't think I have read about previously:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brn..."

AR: I read --

After the Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation by Gile McDonogh

which went into the subject of the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland, East Prussia, Hungary, Romania and especially Czechoslovakia. It was a brutal "payback" in the eyes of the local citizenry.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

I suppose in some cases somewhat deserved?

[Manray9]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I suppose in some cases somewhat deserved?"

There were local German elements who jumped on the Nazi bandwagon, but in Bohemia and Moravia the story was older and more complicated. In the days of the Austro-Hungarian empire, the nobles, the gentry, and the burghers tended to be Germans while the peasantry and workers were Czechs or Slovaks. Hard feelings ran long and deep -- ethnic, religious, class, and economic.

[Lilo]

@ Dimitri: Had I been one of the Allies (and even more so had I been a Jew) I would have sided with Morgenthau. The problem: The innocent would have been punished with the guilty. Yet the way it turned out, most of the guilty ran free.

For the non-Nazis, themselves victims of the murderous regime, the Marshall plan was a blessing, and my family and our friends (all of them non-Nazis) were very grateful for it, yet the Nazis (and especially the cruel Nazis) certainly did not deserve it. (I don't know whether the Nazis felt any gratitude. We did not socially interact with any Nazis.)

From a strictly political aspect, the Marshall plan was, most likely, also the better solution.

[Lilo]

@ Rick and Manray9:

I just read the description of "After the Reich", and I am stunned. This may be true for the Russian-occupied territory, but I don't think it holds true for the American- and British-occupied parts of Germany.

We lived in a small town (population 5,000), 20 miles north of Dachau. My hometown was a particular Nazi-nest. Nevertheless, I know of (and experienced myself) only kind actions of the Americans who occupied our town. And they wouldn't even know how to distinguish between Nazis and non-Nazis.

[Bev]

I'm late with my reviews these days which is why I have been rather quiet this month but I did read a "non-fiction" novel which I think fits into the theme.

It is Helga: Growing Up in Hitler's Germany by Karen Truesdell Riehl . It is a novel based on interviews with a woman who as a child was a "Jugend" or member of the Hitler Youth movement for girls. It gives insight into how young girls were basically brainwashed into believing whatever the Nazi's wanted them to believe and how their parents were intimidated and forced to allow this to happen.

Here is a link to my review.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Thanks for the details on that book and your review Bev, much appreciated.

[Pamela]

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This story was quote by the author in the book I'm currently reading; The German War and really brought home to me the depth of depravity within German society during WW2. The account is in relatio..."

This incident was also recounted in "Hitler's Furies" by Wendy Lower.

[Pamela]

This one looks very promising:
Justifying Genocide: Germany and the Armenians from Bismarck to Hitler by Stefan Ihrig (available in January)

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Pamela wrote: "This one looks very promising:
Justifying Genocide: Germany and the Armenians from Bismarck to Hitler by Stefan Ihrig (available in January)"

Added Justifying Genocide: Germany and the Armenians from Bismarck to Hitler to the TBR. Should be an interesting account. In The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America's Response, Balakian related how the Germans are responsible for much of the information we have on the Armenian Genocide because they built and ran the railroads in the Ottoman lands. The German attitude toward the genocide was complex, according to Balakian. They had sympathy for the Armenians but were prevented from action by commercial and diplomatic restraints. Sounds like this book might have a different take on the German attitudes.

[Pamela]

Mike wrote: "Pamela wrote: "This one looks very promising:
Justifying Genocide: Germany and the Armenians from Bismarck to Hitler by Stefan Ihrig (available in January)"

Added [bookcover:Justifying Genocide: G..."

Thanks Mike ! It's so important to read historical books that counterbalance one another when there's a controversial subject at hand.

[Liam]

Hello all-

Last night (actually, brutally early this morning) I more-or-less finished a project that has taken me, off and on, just under two years. I discovered this amazing 50 volume set of military history works on WWII which was published in West Germany between 1950 and 1975, and have now managed to find and enter listings on GR for all but one of the volumes in the set, most of them complete with cover scans. This project was probably an incredible waste of time and effort, since there are not that many GR members fluent enough in German to actually read these books (as far as I can tell, only 2 have ever been translated into English), but it was fun & fascinating to track them down. If any of you are interested, here is a link: (https://www.goodreads.com/series/9127...). The series is titled "Die Wehrmacht Im Kampf"; I hope some of you find it of interest!

The two works in this series which have been translated into English are Generalmajor F.W. von Mellenthin's excellent Panzer Battles: A Study of the Employment of Armor in the Second World War (this was the book that led me to discover the series) and Generaloberst Hermann Hoth's Panzer Operations: Germany's Panzer Group 3 During the Invasion of Russia, 1941, which was just published for the first time in English earlier this year.

['Aussie Rick', Moderator]

Great effort Liam and well done! Thanks for sharing the link with the group. So only two books in the series have ever been translated into English? If so lets hope that someone takes on the task of translating and publishing the rest of the series.

[Colin]

General Friedrich-Wilhelm von Melenthin was one of my first interviews, long ago. Very interesting man.

[Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces]

Well done Liam! Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

[Jerome]

Liam wrote: "Hello all-

Last night (actually, brutally early this morning) I more-or-less finished a project that has taken me, off and on, just under two years. I discovered this amazing 50 volume set of mil..."

Nice find, Liam, I'm actually a native speaker but haven't read too much in that language. I'll give these a look.

[Manray9]

Liam wrote: "Hello all-

Last night (actually, brutally early this morning) I more-or-less finished a project that has taken me, off and on, just under two years. I discovered this amazing 50 volume set of mil..."

Good job, Liam!

[Timothy]

Liam wrote: "Hello all-"

Way to persevere through a great effort. Well done!

[Liam]

Thank you all so very much; your appreciation means a great deal to me... Ich denk die mehrheit uns hier in Zweite-Weltkrieg gruppe ein bißchen Deutsch haben, aber, für das mehrheit es ist einzig ein bißchen! My thoughts are the same as Rick's, and probably most of you- even given the gigantic number of works that have been written on WWII, it's slightly shocking to find this many not only untranslated, but in most cases never even re-printed in the original German (except for the "Scharnhorst Buchkameradschaft" BCEs published concurrently with the original series)... Hopefully someone will notice that & begin to rectify it at some point!

Colin- I know I've said this before, but you are fortunate to have had the opportunity to speak with so many of those who played a part in the history of the 20th Century. I expect von Mellenthin was quite interesting! The more I have learned about his career, the greater my respect for him as a soldier has become.

[Liam]

Sweet!!! Just found the last one, Volume 31- now the series listing is complete, except for those last few cover scans!

By the way, Jerome- I never would have guessed. I'm happy to know that, 'cause I've come across a lot of interesting books only available in German, and thought I had no one to recommend them to!

[Colin]

FYI, Kurt Vonnegut was captured by Mellenthin's forces, and the general became a great fan after the war, and wrote to Vonnegut apologizing for the "unsoldierly" actions of those who dishonored the German military, mainly the Gestapo and non combat SS units.

[Dimitri]

Looks like a great series...but the language barrier is daunting. Conversating in German and reading Anmerkungen zu Hitler after the translated version (freshly bought at the Bebelplatz, where the Berlin book burnings took place) is of a different order than deep military studies where the devil is in the details.

[Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces]

Liam wrote: "Sweet!!! Just found the last one, Volume 31- now the series listing is complete, except for those last few cover scans!

By the way, Jerome- I never would have guessed. I'm happy to know that, 'cau..."

And with the 31st volume ends a worthy effort Liam as it may help even a few people discover and connect with books they were not aware of.

[Liam]

Thanx, Geevee; like I said, you guys make it all worthwhile with your interest & appreciation!

I finished The army, politics and society in Germany, 1933-45: Studies in the army's relation to Nazism a few hours ago. It was a bit dry, as I had expected, but surprisingly not to the point of inducing somnolence; for a scholarly work in translation, it actually moved along quite well. Most of the book dealt with Generaloberst Ludwig Beck; specifically with the chronology, extent & motivation of his opposition to Hitler. There isn't much new here, as this work was written some thirty-odd years ago, but given the dearth of English-language material on Beck it was still well worth reading. I'd give it a qualified recommendation. This is the second work I've read from the "War, Armed Forces and Society" series published by Manchester University Press during the 1980s; the other was Troubled days of peace: Mountbatten and South East Asia Command, 1945-46, which was really quite good, although getting hold of a copy took several years and was an enormous pain in the ass. Expensive, too. Happily, Klaus-Jürgen Müller's book is much easier to find and quite inexpensive! I'm not sure what happened with the series; as far as I know only 3 or 4 works were actually published. A shame, really, as the series' General Editor was the well-respected Dr. Ian F.W. Beckett, and the equally renowned Professor Douglas Porch served on the Editorial board...

[Dj]

Colin wrote: "General Friedrich-Wilhelm von Melenthin was one of my first interviews, long ago. Very interesting man."


I read his Panzer Battles, my impression was he was catering to the Americans in the book. He seemed to have more praise for their fighting ability than any of the other nations he fought against. More so than most of the Germans, who had more to say about the abundance of material.

[Colin]

H respected American tenacity, if not some of the logic they used to deploy their troops

[Dimitri]

Dj wrote: "To be totally fair, the US has had two Civil Wars. The ACW, and the one we call the Revolution. Both messy affairs."

Erudite point, Dj. Never considered the American Revolution a Civil War, but it is, with the population split by thirds: revolutionary, loyalist & neutral/we'll see.

Still funny to read the cracked.com comment section :
"....since the Civil War..."
"THE Civil War ?" (British member)
"Welcome to an American website !"