The History Book Club discussion

This topic is about
A Division of the Spoils
HISTORY OF SOUTHERN ASIA
>
WE ARE OPEN - WEEK TWO ~ A DIVISION OF THE SPOILS - September 7th - September 13th > BOOK ONE: 1945 - Section One ~ An Evening at the Maharanees - Chapter 2 (pg. 35 - 74) - (No spoilers, please)
date
newest »


Perron arrives early at the party at a rather dingy block of flats where the Maharanee resides. The servant serves him a drink and takes her to meet "Auntie" which is the name the servants use for the Maharanee. She is an exotic creature and seems well versed in Operation Zipper, a subject Perron chooses not to discuss.
Perron sees Major Merrick with two other men who are introduced as Count Bronowsky and Ahmed Kasim and remembers he had met Merrick earlier when he was involved in questioning an Indian prisoner who had been a part of the National Army. At that point, Merrick discovered that Perron had gone to school with Hari Kumar, his avowed enemy.
Sarah Layton joins them and Merrick tells Perron he is taking her home before the party gets worse. Perron is puzzled, and Merrick tells him that many of the "girls" there are actually young boys and all is not what it appears to be. The group leave the party and Perron is again asked about Hari Kumar but he remains vague about their friendship.

I obviously am being obtuse but I'm not sure that this party would be of much use to Perron as the majority of people are of questionable character and how does one sort street rumor from fact? Would he be able to pick up any good information from the loose talk there or as Purvis says, it is a waste of time. Or was the object to get close to the Maharanee who may well be a good source of the information that the Army is seeking?(whatever that is).

In the context of the book: Perron is there because he was ordered, and the officer who ordered him is a knucklehead.
His orders do not put him in a position to gather any valuable information about threats to the waning war effort. In fact, in the larger context of the war whose outcome is determined, Perron's and Purvis' assignment at best is going through the motions of tracking down rumors that might have been of a more valid concern earlier. As Purvis notes, everyone knows about operation Zipper.
But, as a literary device, the party is an opportunity for characters from the three previous volumes to be thrown together with new characters, all of whom bring the baggage of their back stories as the quartet's final movement unfolds.
Perron, Merrick, Bronowsky, Sarah, the younger Kasim all are at the party physically; and through their back stories we become aware of Hari, and the older brother Kasim's involvement in the Indian troupe's betrayal of the Raj and its fundamental undermining of the Brits' delusion that India was so content to recognize its place as England's little, brown brother.
But we also start to weave together the stories of the characters. Merrick and his pathology are woven into the story through the recounting of the Kasim interrogation and his interest in Hari. The Layton sisters are woven in as well as well as Bronowsky.
In addition to the English perspective that is introduced at the party, there is the Indian perspective as well. The Kasim back story obviously is a manifestation of the Indian's yearning to be free of their colonial yoke. We also learn of a link between Perron and Hari.
They both attended the same upper-crust school in England. There, Perron asked Hari the difference between karma, and dharma; but Hari could not answer because he had become so English in his upbringing that these very fundamental Indian concepts were obscured.
Understanding karma and dharma can serve as a key to unlocking the quartet.
For instance, in Sarah's earlier ruminations about the individual's ability to influence history during the set piece of her sister Susan's wedding, we see a western parallel to the meaning of karma and dharma.

To me Merrick's attitudes and personality are best revealed here. Although we knew how intense his feelings toward Hari were, it appears it has now turned into an obsession. He sees Hari as the center of some intrigue even though his original "sin" was his supposed role in the rape at Bibighar Gardens. Perron's acquaintance with Hari at school in England fans the flame of Merrick's obsession. He keeps gathering pieces of information about Hari and I assume that he will use these to bring him to the dock for treason against the British (or whatever charge is appropriate for an Indian citizen against an occupying country).

Re: the Maharanee.....she appears to be using a title to which she is no longer entitled since she divorced the Maharajah......but she is a new character in the Quartet and I think she probably uses it to her advantage without much comment from others, especially if she is a "madame".....is she? Looks like it to me,
The Layton sisters have been with us since Book I and have been involved in various aspects of the life of the British young woman in India but it is her mother, Mildred, who is the interesting person in that family. She is not what she appears at all and that may become clearer in Book IV.

Why do you think Ahmed is working that job?



Strange things are happening in India, so your idea is not without merit, just not one that crossed my mind. Thanks for your thoughts on that mystery.

Jill - there are no imposters - just to keep the conversation on track. Do not like to get into foreshadowing but the conversation needs to be grounded in reality and we do not want to confuse folks.
Sometimes character development takes place in a series over multiple books and prison can change anybody or a son who you valued and placed on a pedestal doing something that is so foreign to you that you do not understand - that too can change a man like Kasim.
Sometimes character development takes place in a series over multiple books and prison can change anybody or a son who you valued and placed on a pedestal doing something that is so foreign to you that you do not understand - that too can change a man like Kasim.

It's speculation, but that's part of the fun of a book club - discussing possibilities. I think my comments are fair game and that I should be allowed to express myself.
message 20:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Sep 07, 2015 08:15PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Leslie, these are our guidelines and we have given you copies of them multiple times. Please read them carefully. They are not optional.
THE HISTORY BOOK CLUB GUIDELINES
We want everyone to have fun here, so here are a few guidelines that must be followed to ensure that outcome:
WARNINGS AND REPERCUSSIONS
Abuses to the above guidelines will result in an immediate warning.
Continued abuses will result in a second, and final, warning. Persistent abuse after the two warnings will result in a ban from The History Book Club.
However, in a very few instances some abuses may be so flagrant and disruptive that a ban may result immediately for the safety of the group. We do not allow ads, marketing, spam, self-promotion, flaming, flamebaiting, trolls and/or trolling.
Because we want a friendly atmosphere where everyone will be able to enjoy themselves including the moderators, we have felt the need to post the guidelines for all new and old group members.
There are always some who disregard the needs of others; so unfortunately we must define what the guidelines are up front.
Additionally, here are the links to the goodreads terms and a link to the author guidelines:
http://www.goodreads.com/about/terms
http://www.goodreads.com/author/guide...
Please try to read both especially the segment on user content as well as age eligibility (see details below)
If you have problems with the mechanics of the board and need more detailed tips of how to add book covers, photos of the author when available and the author's link..please go to the Mechanics of the Board thread:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
We look forward to your participation and have these rules and guidelines to maintain the high standards of the group and to protect the membership.
All are welcome.
Bentley
THE HISTORY BOOK CLUB GUIDELINES
We want everyone to have fun here, so here are a few guidelines that must be followed to ensure that outcome:
- Please treat other members courteously, as though you were a guest in their home
- We would like new members to post a very short intro on the Introduction thread and participate in the discussion of one selected book per year
- Welcome new members to the group once they have introduced themselves; it makes everyone feel more comfortable
-Conduct both civil and respectful conversation
-Be responsive to moderators in terms of event notifications (3 this year) with either a yes, no or a maybe so we do not have to chase you down
-Be responsive to voting and polls
-Be able to post on any one of the threads or in the Coffee, Tea, Conversation topic threads at least once or twice a month
-Please read and follow the Goodreads Terms of Use document and the Goodreads Guidelines especially for user content. We take these very seriously.
-When recommending or posting information about any books, all members must add the book cover and the author's link and the author's photo, if available. When citing authors, add the photo if available of the author and always the author's link. This allows the goodreads software to access helpful information regarding both the book and the author as these links populate fields across the group's location. A very useful tool for group members.
-Nobody has the right to abuse anyone verbally, to spam the forum, or make offensive remarks, including but not limited to posts that include racism, sexism, or comments derogatory to another’s sexuality, religion or ethnic background. Everyone is welcome here.
-Arguments are a part of the forum experience. Opinions on The History Book Club site are diverse and sometimes directly polarized. We all love reading threads where there are many opposing ideas, but any differences must be addressed with respect.
- We will not tolerate when individuals go beyond these boundaries— it’s not fun to read and destroys community atmosphere. Keep the arguments restricted to books and ideas, please don’t attack any group member or the moderators. Any attacks on any member of the moderation team is an automatic warning. If it persists, you will be a group short.
- We have zero tolerance for flaming, flamebaiting, spam, bookspam, self promotion, ads, marketing, attempts to sell something, use of our membership list for self promotion of any kind, trolls or trolling. There are serious repercussions for any of these practices or posting styles. We also do not allow any posting of links or self promotion of other goodreads sites, other external sites, or other urls used to promote the member in "any" way.
- Remember no marketing; no posting the same post all over the place announcing you are an author, a writer or a publisher and how many books you have written or published. We do not want to be sold to, marketed to, nor is our site a platform to advertise your books or anything else you may be marketing. So please be careful even in your intros and contact one of the mods if you are in doubt "before you post". We delete all such posts immediately. See the thread - How to Get Started - our Orientation thread - for additional details. We take spam seriously. NO SELF PROMOTION PERIOD. Do not tell us about your books at any time. Also, make sure that if you want to talk about a book, post your thoughts here - we are not interested in your trying to gather numerous "likes" for your personal reviews. We are interested in hearing your thoughts about a book on our site; we are not interested in getting directions to link to your blog, your reviews, your profile elsewhere. It would appear to us that you are using our thread to promote something else that you have done or doing somewhere else rather that contributing to the camaraderie here at the HBC.
- All of the moderators are unpaid volunteers and are working hard to provide an environment of respect, civility and comraderie. All group members must follow the lead of the moderators if they make a recommendation for the group on a thread. They make these suggestions to keep discussions moving and to provide a proper environment for civil discourse. If a member purposely disrupts the community atmosphere or challenges the recommendations of the moderators who are just trying to instruct and assist with the implementation of the group's rules and guidelines; it is at the discretion of the moderator team whether the member is removed immediately. We are most concerned for the well being and atmosphere of the group and the safety and security of our members.
REGARDING DISCUSSION QUESTION SET UP:
- Members, there appears to be another feature that has cropped up which the HBC will not be using. Use of it will be against our guidelines.
Please do not set up random threads or folders or use the discussion question feature in the HBC. We welcome suggestions and the moderators do discuss all suggestions to see if they fit in with the direction and focus of the group while at the same time avoiding any duplications. Use of our suggestion box is encouraged and recommended. Some groups on goodreads may use and allow this feature, we do not.
Any arbitrary or ad hoc threads, discussion questions, etc. set up in violation of our guidelines will be deleted. This is nothing personal. We only allow moderators to set up new threads and folders to avoid potential duplication of threads, folders, spam, self promotion, flaming, trolling, or marketing.
If you set up one of these, it will be deleted automatically; we will not send out any PMs regarding any of these deletions.
Thank you in advance,
Bentley
WARNINGS AND REPERCUSSIONS
Abuses to the above guidelines will result in an immediate warning.
Continued abuses will result in a second, and final, warning. Persistent abuse after the two warnings will result in a ban from The History Book Club.
However, in a very few instances some abuses may be so flagrant and disruptive that a ban may result immediately for the safety of the group. We do not allow ads, marketing, spam, self-promotion, flaming, flamebaiting, trolls and/or trolling.
Because we want a friendly atmosphere where everyone will be able to enjoy themselves including the moderators, we have felt the need to post the guidelines for all new and old group members.
There are always some who disregard the needs of others; so unfortunately we must define what the guidelines are up front.
Additionally, here are the links to the goodreads terms and a link to the author guidelines:
http://www.goodreads.com/about/terms
http://www.goodreads.com/author/guide...
Please try to read both especially the segment on user content as well as age eligibility (see details below)
If you have problems with the mechanics of the board and need more detailed tips of how to add book covers, photos of the author when available and the author's link..please go to the Mechanics of the Board thread:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
We look forward to your participation and have these rules and guidelines to maintain the high standards of the group and to protect the membership.
All are welcome.
Bentley


Leslie,
Yes. Daphne was raped in the first volume. That and the prosecution/persecution of Hari, who we know is wrongly accused, throughout the quartet is a thread throughout the narrative.
And, yes, Merrick appears throughout the quartet. In my estimation, his malevolence grows and knows no bounds. I used the word "pathological" to describe him early in our discussion, and think it's an apt description.
Again, with the subject of karma in mind (karma is cause/effect, with motivation serving as what completes the act), Merrick's actions (karma) initially appear to be those of a small minded, but well intended, police commissioner - at least that assessment is warranted by the text, IMHO.
But, also early on in a scene where he invites Dauphe to dinner, we see at the least an alienated and manipulative man who could be perceived as a predator type.
He's a most interesting character. As William Blake noted, Lucifer/Satan is the center of our attention in Paradise Lost as Ahab is in Moby Dick. All three characters, in my mind, are cut from the same cloth.

I might add that in a set piece during Susan Layton's wedding, the more thoughtful Layton daughter Sarah expounds on the individual's ability to influence history.
This appears, at least in this reader's eye, to closely parallel, if not converge on, the dharma/karma theme.


I ain't Charlie Brown.
Your answer is in the spoiler thread.




The ramifications are disastrous. His pathology is unchecked because he is in a position of authority that remains unchallenged by his superiors because he goes through the motions of being a good constable.
But Scott allows the reader to see what really is going on, and what makes the wheels turn in the bad cop's head. At least, that's my take. I think it's pretty close to the text.



I re-read a bit from the beginning this morning. Gosh, this series is so awesome! Little details that don't seem that important on the first read jump out at you on the second.
But without any spoilers, I think I can say this. I wonder if there were ever any real Guy Perrons - upper class British men who chose to stay in the rank and file on principle.
Kressel that is an excellent question - I wondered that too but not being British and not knowing anybody during that time period or in India I wondered how we would find out.
I thought it was an odd thing that he chose to do but it did give him flexibility with his life and direction.
I thought it was an odd thing that he chose to do but it did give him flexibility with his life and direction.


I re-read a bit from the beginning this morning. Gosh, this series is so awesome! Little details that don't seem that important..."
'Aurence of Arabia, although that wasn't in India.

message 44:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Sep 09, 2015 06:03PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
I have completed all of them as part of the Readathon and I have to say that this work (the Raj Quartet plus one) was his magnum opus. The final book is short but I think is a fitting one because it ties up some of the loose ends. The group will be reading that next and that will finish up the India challenge.
by
Paul Scott
Martin, I think the post is a wonderful one but contains huge spoilers for the next book which we plan to read so I am moving it to the glossary spoiler thread. Additionally since this is a book not being discussed on these threads - it would have to be cited.
by
Paul Scott


Martin, I think the post is a wonderful one but contains huge spoilers for the next book which we plan to read so I am moving it to the glossary spoiler thread. Additionally since this is a book not being discussed on these threads - it would have to be cited.


message 45:
by
Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief
(last edited Sep 09, 2015 06:06PM)
(new)
-
rated it 5 stars
Jill wrote: "Your reference to Lawrence is very appropriate. He was a man who studied the Arabs, spoke the language in most of the dialects and promised the Arabs their own country. But being British and ordere..."
Yes, odd I would never have cited him as Perron like until you and Martin just mentioned it - but he did have similar principles and qualities. However in Perron's case and not to get ahead ourselves I think he was pro England through and through - in terms of the love of his country and wanting to return to his native land and his family roots.
Yes, odd I would never have cited him as Perron like until you and Martin just mentioned it - but he did have similar principles and qualities. However in Perron's case and not to get ahead ourselves I think he was pro England through and through - in terms of the love of his country and wanting to return to his native land and his family roots.

I agree on that one based upon the Quartet and I guess based upon English history too. It was a complex love/hate relationship that England had with India and India with England. They both gained from the relationship - at times one did more than the other. I think Perron was very intelligent and with that intelligence came understanding.

But he does it in such an accomplished way that it's quite comfortable for the reader to envision being there, able to see behind the party action with all its innuendo and gauge the truth, or a truthful understanding, of what is going on.

Bringing together Count Bronowsky et al at the party is a device that works well.....the reader is concentrating on the party and what it means when it suddenly occurs that this is a clever way to re-introduce continuing characters. They could just as easily run into each other on the street or in a restaurant but instead, Scott adds the color and mystery of the party as the background.
Books mentioned in this topic
Staying On (other topics)The Raj Quartet (other topics)
A Division of the Spoils (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Paul Scott (other topics)Paul Scott (other topics)
For the weeks of September 7th - September 13th, we are reading BOOK ONE: 1945 -Section One - An Evening At The Maharanees - Chapter Two ~ A Division of the Spoils -Book IV,(pg. 35-74).
The second week's reading assignment is:
WEEK TWO- August 31st ~ PART ONE: Section One ~ An Evening At the Maharanees (pg. 33-74))
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on August 31st.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up on September 7th.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Jill will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Bentley.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how to cite books:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Introduction Thread:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Table of Contents and Syllabus
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...