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The Picture of Dorian Gray
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BBR Kisha and June: The Picture of Dorian Gray
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kisha, The Clean Up Lady
(last edited Sep 03, 2015 07:06AM)
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Sep 03, 2015 05:50AM
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June and I will be reading The Picture of Dorian Gray for our Sept blind buddy read. Anyone wanting to join please feel free.
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Oooooh, one of my favorites! I probably won't reread it right now but I'd love to join in on the discussion as time allows.
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Have you read the preface yet? Wow it was amazing. Because it was so short I will post it here. It was so amazing to me that I wanted to discuss it. Here it goes...
THE PREFACE
The artist is the creator of beautiful things. To reveal art and conceal the artist is art's aim. The critic is he who can translate into another manner or a new material his impression of beautiful things.
The highest as the lowest form of criticism is a mode of autobiography. Those who find ugly meanings in beautiful things are corrupt without being charming. This is a fault.
Those who find beautiful meanings in beautiful things are the cultivated. For these there is hope. They are the elect to whom beautiful things mean only beauty.
There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all.
The nineteenth century dislike of realism is the rage of Caliban seeing his own face in a glass.
The nineteenth century dislike of romanticism is the rage of Caliban not seeing his own face in a glass. The moral life of man forms part of the subject-matter of the artist, but the morality of art consists in the perfect use of an imperfect medium. No artist desires to prove anything. Even things that are true can be proved. No artist has ethical sympathies. An ethical sympathy in an artist is an unpardonable mannerism of style. No artist is ever morbid. The artist can express everything. Thought and language are to the artist instruments of an art. Vice and virtue are to the artist materials for an art. From the point of view of form, the type of all the arts is the art of the musician. From the point of view of feeling, the actor's craft is the type. All art is at once surface and symbol. Those who go beneath the surface do so at their peril. Those who read the symbol do so at their peril. It is the spectator, and not life, that art really mirrors. Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital. When critics disagree, the artist is in accord with himself. We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.
All art is quite useless.
OSCAR WILDE
What are your thoughts of this?
Anastasia wrote: "Oooooh, one of my favorites! I probably won't reread it right now but I'd love to join in on the discussion as time allows."I also really enjoyed reading this book - though it was many many years.
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I get the feeling that from what Wilde wrote in what you posted, Kisha, that he expects artists to be somewhat objective and believes that the viewer imparts meaning into a work?
Kisha, this has really put perspective on what I have read so far. At first it just sounds like circular argument. But I think the gist of the preface is that a true artist just portrays what he sees in whatever form he can use. Whatever we see or interpret is based on our own experiences and prejudices. For example, when the artist (can't remember his name right now) paints he just sees the beauty of Dorian Grey. But Lord Henry Wotton, sees the artist and the vanity of youth. Which really provides insight into these two characters.
But the ending seems to suggest that good art is just to be admired and has no other purpose.
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How are you liking it so far and how far are you into this book?
Hi Kisha,I haven't got very far about 24% in. A difficult read for me because I don't like Lord Wotton's influence or the things he says. This happened to me with my first reading of Vanity Fair with the MC- Becky. I wanted to slap her. scream at her knowing it would make no difference. But then the second time, I appreciated the wit involved. So hoping the same happens here seeing how everyone loves this book.
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1. Chapter one Dorian is introduced as a painting and not necessarily a person. In fact Dorian wasn't even introduced as a character until chapter two. Why do you think Wilde decided to introduce Dorian's painting before introducing him as a person.
2. A lot of this book is about vanity and youth. What are your thoughts about Lord Henry Wotton's opinions about youth?
3. What are your thoughts about Basil and Dorian's relationship so far?
Q1. It builds up your impression of him based on the admiration of Basil and the intrigue of Lord Wotton. But it is really a shallow impression, he is described as gorgeous. And because I think the painting is key to the novel, given a reference to movie I watched with Sean Connery( can't remember the name).Q2. Henry is clearly obsessed with youth. He seems to want it to last forever but knows it is fleeting. And is angry that youth should be so short. As I consider his thoughts, it seemed like he also hates anyone who is young maybe now that he is older. It seems to me, it is his task to corrupt, though he sees it as causing youth to truly blossom.
Q3. I'll be honest here. I wondered if Basil had fallen in love with Dorian. He admires him greatly and that has been expressed in the painting. He seems disturbed by this yet sees this as his best art piece so far. He wants to maintain his innocence and keep him as he sees him. Yet, it is one-sided, almost as if Basil wants to keep his feeling hidden from Dorian. And Dorian, well he just wants to be adored and praised. He is one of those people who knows he is good-looking and expects everyone to acknowledge it.
Thanks for the questions, Kisha. Guess I may have a better handle than it think. And I have reached chapter 5.
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My personal opinion is that for starters, the portrait is an important character so to speak, in this novel. It sets the tone of how important beauty is and Dorian is to Basil. I think Wilde wanted his audience to see Dorian as art and what better way than to introduce him as a portrait? I thought it to be clever and unique.
2. A lot of this book is about vanity and youth. What are your thoughts about Lord Henry Wotton's opinions about youth?
I don't believe even Lord Henry believes half of what comes out of his own mouth. I believe his main purpose is his enjoyment in manipulating Dorian. Dorian is quite naive and seems to be an easy target to Lord Henry's manipulation.
3. What are your thoughts about Basil and Dorian's relationship so far?
I'm with you June. I definitely think that Basil's feelings about Dorian has become extremely personal and romantic. I read this book years and years ago so I don't remember much about it this aside from the theme of vanity so I don't know where this is going. But it definitely is something different about Basil's infactuation with Dorian. He seems to be obsessed with his good looks. I can't wait to see where that goes.
Thanks for the questions, Kisha. Guess I may have a better handle than it think. And I have reached chapter 5.
I'm glad you are beginning to get into this classic. I remember really enjoying it. If you have any special questions that you'd like to pose and discuss please feel free to post them. Buddy reads are very informal. I'm only on chapt four. I'm reading multiple books right now so it's slowing me down. I will try and catch up to you though.
Has anyone read the uncensored version of this book? I've heard about it but haven't read it yet.
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The first time I read this novel in high school it was the uncensored version bc we were reading it as a project for censorship. I don't remember much about it though.
Side note: A critically acclaimed movie was made of this tale in 1945. The painting that was used at the end of the film now hangs in The Art Institute of Chicago, and was painted by Ivan Le Lorraine Albright.
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@ Anastasia I didn't even know there was an uncensored version available. But what I'm reading so far, I'm not surprised at the scandal this would have made when it was released.
My questions for chapters 3 and 4:Here we learn more about Lord Henry Wotton.
1) Henry has some intriguing views on women. Having had that brief introduction to his wife, how would you describe his marriage? Do you think his views have been colored by his own marriage?
2) The dinner at his aunt really was a setting for Henry to speak more. Do you agree with the assessment that he is charming? If not, how would you describe Henry at this time?
3)Do any of these chapters give any clues as to the possible extent of Henry's influence and/or motive for influencing Dorian?
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I believe that Lord Henry is all talk. I don't believe that he believes his own theories on life. He doesn't seem sincere to me. He seems like he has an imagine of who he wants everyone to believe he is but in actually that isn't truely who he is. (Hope that makes since).
2) The dinner at his aunt really was a setting for Henry to speak more. Do you agree with the assessment that he is charming? If not, how would you describe Henry at this time?
Yes I think that Lord Henry is quite the charmer and is very good with his words and getting people to do, say and believe what he wants them to.
3)Do any of these chapters give any clues as to the possible extent of Henry's influence and/or motive for influencing Dorian?
Yes I think it started in chapter 2. Henry put it in Dorian's ear that he is young and beautiful and that those two things are the most important things in life. Then he went on to say that he would lose it all and that would be a tragedy. Soon as Dorian seen the picture he was drawn into everything that Lord Henry said. Lord Henry's motive I think is the pure enjoyment of seeing his influence take over another persons soul. He mentioned that I believe in chapter 3. That leads me to believe that Lord Henry has his own set of insecurities.
1) The marriage of Lord Henry seems very counter to his voiced percceptions. I was expecting either a manipulative or a very docile woman. Instead his marriage is a shell. His wife seems to admire and yet tolerate his whims. She clearly has her own plans and does not seems unduly distressed on meeting Dorian. I agree Kisha that Lord Henry has more bark than bite.
2) Charming is not what I would use to describe Lord Henry. To me he is arrogant and mocks his elders. He spouts a lot of nonsense and because his relatives don't know if he is serious they laugh him off.
3) Lord Henry sees Dorian as a paragon of youth and beauty. But yet sees he is innocent of worldly notions and seeks to teach him. I think he really yearns to mold Dorian, even if it is just to corrupt him. I agree for him ,it is the sheer power of influencing Dorian that is his motive.
I wonder if Lord Henry sees himself as old, not longer attractive especially after being disappointed by marriage and really not in a true position to influence anyone but an innocent.
The engagement of Dorian to Sibyl Vane:1) What do you think of this relationship as it is unveiled?
2) Do you think that they would make a good couple? What issues do you see arising from their family or friends?
3) Basil comments that this engagement and marriage may be the salvation for Dorian.How does this fit the portrayal of Basil?
4) Did you anticipate the outcome of the engagement? What do you feel about Dorian at this time including the events where he learns what happens to Sibyl?
I'm joining as well. Kinda late . lol
That's okay, Lee. Great to have you.
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ch 1question 1. I think Basil introduces Dorian in a painting first, so he can get a feel of how Lord Henry/Harry or whoever else sees Dorian. I believe Basil wantes Henry to ask him those questions; why else paint it. lol..
question 2. lol!
question 3. I think Basil is infatuated with Dorian.
On the ch 2.
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No problem Kisha. I think this was such a pivotal time for Dorian, that fork in the road where your actions cemented who he decided to become. And the time I thought he was free of Lord Henry. I am intrigued by how the book ended though. And this made me appreciate the novel a bit more. Don't want to spoil it for Lee, in case she hasn't reached there yet.
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1) What do you think of this relationship as it is unveiled?
I think it is built off of vanity.
They fell in love within weeks of knowing each other. Sibyl didn't even know Dorian's name for Christ sakes. It was all build off of superficial values.
2) Do you think that they would make a good couple? What issues do you see arising from their family or friends?
I think that their family and friends are way too involved. The mother only cares if she marries someone who is rich. Nothing else seems to matter. I don't think their relationship really has a chance.
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I finished a while ago so I was waiting. This was not an easy read for me at all. I'm not sure what I expected but this was completely outside my comfort zone. The writing is great, there is great imagery from the writing. There is quite a bit of symbolism. I am glad that even though I couldn't stand most of the characters, Wilde may them true to form. Hope that makes sense. I felt that every character made an impact, no superfluous roles here.
The only tolerable character is Basil. But Dorian and Lord Henry should never have met. This relationship reminded me of parent's warning about those who influence you. And no-one here remains unscathed. Truly horrible people.
All now I'm struggling with my rating- I want to re-read it and I was thinking of the rating system. I don't love this book because of the horror part but it should be read by everyone. So it probably deserves a 4* or greater rating for the writing and not my 3* based on the characters and the writing.
