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Is this what the Conservative Movement is really all about?
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thanks Gus, for letting us know about this.hateful & sickening.
not to mention childish...
Oh, that makes me sad that anyone would do that.
Yes, I agree...it's up to the conservatives to police their own far right in this one and make it clear they're not part of this.
They can't police them too well b/c unfortunately these kinds of fears (hatred is really about fear), while not expressed as overtly, are what underlie most the conservative base's ideology, only it gets wrapped up in "tradition" and "faith" and "family values" and "patriotism." It's still the same fear of the other, fear of losing privilege, fear of change.
Every group has its extremists. I doubt the whole of conservatism would sit alongside what was written in that blog.
The last 2 posts reinforce my fears: the conservative moment HAS been hijacked by extremists with extreme points of view, and those within the movement who can take a moral stand against the intolerance and hatred that's spewed by these extremists in power are either told to comply or are ostracized completely.
One who's taken a stand, and has shown she can weather the abuse hurled at her, is Meghan McCain, Senator McCain's daughter. She's routinely denounced these people, stating the GOP and the conservative movement should not have a place for people with this kind of poisonous thinking.
One who's taken a stand, and has shown she can weather the abuse hurled at her, is Meghan McCain, Senator McCain's daughter. She's routinely denounced these people, stating the GOP and the conservative movement should not have a place for people with this kind of poisonous thinking.
I am so tired of these guys making us non denominational Jesus loving Christians look bad. I am not a full out and out republican, but I do tend to understand where there thought process was coming from. The extremists just got in some vortex that spit them back out after f-ing with their minds.
Yeah, I agree with Michelle. I have great respect for people searching for meaning and if the Christian church helps, so be it. But these people...bleh. They make reasonable republicans look bad.
What bothers me most is the hypocrisy and the lying. When Bush was president, these same people were screaming at liberals for not supporting the president just because he was president. It bothers me that they make up statistics and twist words to have the opposite meaning than intended. I know leftist websites that do the exact same thing. However they don't get the same news coverage (and frequently that's a central concern). Not that they don't get any, just not as much.I agree that extremists on both sides make their side look bad. I have respect for people I disagree with who can rationally and intelligently defend their positions. For example, I strongly dislike Mike Huckabee's homophobic views, but I've seen him talk kindly and intelligently with liberals like Jon Stewart and I respected him although I may still not particularly like him.
On a barely (okay really not) related note: I once spent the night at Eric Utne's house (Utne Reader) and had a wonderful dinner and conversation with him about religion and politics. (I was heading off to grad school in religious studies).
Um...a couple questions, Kelly...1) Who are "they"?
2) What statistics have been made up, and what words have been twisted?
Love,
RA
P.S. I can imagine some people seeing this thread get brought to life again and saying "whoa, shit, this is going to get ugly." I would like to say that Kelly is kicking my ass in Scrabble right now but I'm learning from her, and she's quite polite when she's kicking my ass:)
RandomAnthony wrote: "Um...a couple questions, Kelly...1) Who are "they"?
2) What statistics have been made up, and what words have been twisted?
"
I think "they" is the people referenced in the sentence before, the ones who screamed at liberals for not supporting the President, but didn't wait a moment after the election to start questioning this one - right down to the validity of his birth certificate. I can think of any number of twisted words. The Harry Reid comments that were omnipresent a week or so ago come to mind.
I guess I understand that. I don't remember people "screaming at liberals for not supporting the president" but I may have different definitions of "screaming" and "supporting" or wasn't paying attention. I appreciate the acknowledgment that both liberals and conservatives engage in negative behavior; I sometimes wonder if one of the understandings that's emerging over the last two years is the idea that the two parties work in similar ways, both positively and negatively, more often that portraying them as opposites might indicate.
RA wrote, I don't remember people "screaming at liberals for not supporting the president"
Really? Because, for a while there, as the war in Iraq escalated, if you didn't support President Bush, then you didn't support the troops and you were providing aid and comfort to the terrorists. Dick Cheney was real good at pounding that drum beat.
Really? Because, for a while there, as the war in Iraq escalated, if you didn't support President Bush, then you didn't support the troops and you were providing aid and comfort to the terrorists. Dick Cheney was real good at pounding that drum beat.
Well, I guess that's a good example. I don't think I've ever heard Dick Cheney "scream", and although I can't say I'm a fan of Cheney in any way, shape, or form, I'm trying to understand what people mean by somewhat vague and loaded terminology like "scream". If that's the standard, I would say that some liberals (Maureen Dowd, for example) "screamed" about how any criticism of Obama was racist.
The lack of partisanship is painfully obvious, I'm afraid. Both sides assume the worst of the other. On one side, we hear charges that Republicans are blocking health care reform because they are in the pockets of the insurance companies. Maybe, or maybe their constituents are against having to pay for mandatory insurance.
On the other, we get charges of Democratic weakness in defense, and pandering to our enemies. Yes, we need a strong defense, and yes, we need to support our troops. Maybe Obama should research bowing before he goes to the Japan and China next time.
But I see his diplomatic efforts as civilized negotiation, not pandering. I think most of us would just as soon not be fighting two wars overseas, and perhaps we could have avoided at least one of those wars with continued talks, you know?
I have no explanation for the crazy talk, though, about death panels, for example, or Obama not being an American/faked birth certificate nonsense.
I think what both those examples have in common - the any criticism of Bush is unpatriotic, and any criticism of Obama is racist - is that they are both intended to shut people up and stop them from asking questions. Which goes back to "the idea that the two parties work in similar ways, both positively and negatively, more often that portraying them as opposites might indicate." Although in this case it would be negativelyYes, I agree, Buns, this is what I was trying to say but you said it better. Thanks. I also know I get hung up on language and terminology...
I'd like to see both sides start off with an assumption that the other side has good intentions.Is that so impossible?
Sadly, at this point I'd say yes. They have too much to gain by drumming up hatred and fear.
Outside of government at the local level, politics is not about the greater good. It is about winning a contest. You can't win if the other side is presented sympathetically.
I don't know all of their names but I heard actual shouting on a couple of different Fox News commentator type shows. Bill O'Reilly said that we have no right to question the president because he's the president and now he's questioning him all over the place. Glenn Beck definitely shouted. These people have television shows. I tried to say in my post that I think it's on both sides but that I think the ultra-conservative ones get more press than the ultra-liberals do. You don't see any Democratic socialist-oriented show getting air time. I'm not talking Communist because that would be up at the top of the circle where Fascism and Communism meet. But the opposite of these extremists like Ann Coulter is a Democratic Socialist, the regime they have in Sweden. I think the Fox News owners are brilliant because they have made their extremist views more acceptable and mainstream.
Do you really need specifics on the facts made up? Glenn Beck has been called to the table numerous times for his made-up stats. Ann Coulter's stuff isn't footnoted. Read one of Al Franken's books but don't take his word for it. Check his footnotes and the sources he claims her crap comes from. I did so once, not the whole book but randomly and he was right, she was twisting words around and making stuff up. In the last election, even the mainstream media talked about how the conservative side used half truths and played on people's emotions and the liberals were too busy trying to be logical and factual. One article I read was actually saying the Dems needed to up their game because their strategy wasn't working. How many times did Sarah Palin make personal attacks? McCain stopped his followers when they were saying Obama was an "arab" but she didn't. Obama refused to say something personal against Palin in one interview I saw where they were badgering him to do so.
Parsing this through just isn't worth it, Kelly. You seem like you've got your mind made up that the conservative end in America are the bad guys and the democratic end are the good guys, and I don't think the scenario is that simple. There's so much more to the conservative end than Glen Beck, you know? I hope we can still play scrabble, though, because I'd like to win a game sometime, and I've learned a lot from watching your strategy:)
RA, I think Kelly did a good job of responding to your request. She gave some pretty concrete examples to back up anything percieved as vague in her first post. And she acknowledged that it happens on both sides - but that it's definitely easier to find the conservative examples, because there are way more wingnuts being given airtime on that side of the fence. The lefty wingnuts are more visible on a local level.
I guess I agree, Sarah, with one caveat...the citing of Beck and O'Reiley as representative of conservative thought is getting tiresome, from my point of view, anyway. I hear what you're saying about the "press" issue, but the great, great majority of conservatives don't have access to the press; the people who generate ratings get the press. So if anything I feel like most conservative thought is underrepresented in the media. I hope that makes sense. I don't like being associated with O'Reiley anymore than I imagine people on the left like being associated with those people who blow up the Gap every time the World Bank meets or whatever.You know what word is making the rounds again? Populist. I've heard it twice in the last twenty-four hours. What do you think it means?
RA, is there a conservative voice in the media that you DO like? I can understand your unhappiness with Beck and O'Reilly being seen as the the representatives of the right.
Well, that's a good question. I tend not to like any of the pundit shows, left or right. I'd rather read and try to figure it out later. But there are times when I watch Fox News, as I've said, and they seem more reasonable than people may realize. But I don't watch CNN much because they're, like, the People magazine of television lately. So I get most of my news from the newspaper or NPR. I'm a news slut! Conservative! Liberal! Bring it on!Honestly, I guess I'm not drawn to any particular "voice" on any side. I can't think of one political talk person that I like. Oh, who's that black columnist from the Miami Herald? Leonard Pitts! He's pretty good. But he's not conservative. I guess I don't go looking for that kind of commentary. I don't see its value.
I like Leonard Pitts, too. And I can read David Brooks, although I don't always agree with him.I do better with the print conservatives than the ones on TV.
Except for Cal Thomas. I can't stand him.
Cal Thomas reminds me of that asshole neighbor from Dennis the Menace, except Cal Thomas is meaner.
I yell at the newspaper and throw it across the room when I read him.Okay, it kind of flutters and doesn't go very far, but I try!
Thank you Sarah for saying succinctly what I was trying to get across. Random, we can always play Scrabble if you're willing. I do want to state for the record that I do NOT think that conservatives as a group are lying evil bastards. I do have (some) conservative friends. I was simply saying that the extreme conservatives who are inflammatory get more national air time than the extreme liberals, probably because they tend to have more money. The inflammatory "liberals" who get air time are really libertarian or in the middle or whatever (e.g., Howard Stern). Perhaps it comes from a televangelist fan base who are used to watching their leaders on t.v. and it's spread to the mainstream. I always liked McCain until he ran for office. I didn't always agree with him but I had a lot of respect for him. I have even voted for a conservative candidate over a liberal candidate on at least 3 occasions. I've obviously watched Fox News since I can talk about people I've seen on it that have gotten my ire up. Oh, and in my last post I didn't make any value judgment, I didn't say anyone was bad. I even commended Fox news.
Works for me. Except for, um, that kicking my ass in scrabble part.:)
Now you don't want me to go easy on you, do you? That would just be condescending... ;)
Conservative Free Republic blog in free speech flap after racial slurs directed at Obama children
(Don't try to look for the thread that's referenced in this article, because it's been removed.)
For those of you who don't know, Free Republic is a blog site that's a gathering hole for some of the most loathsome, hateful commentary regarding anything not related to the conservative "causes". Openly advocating rounding up liberals and sending them to "camps", denying homosexuals and atheists basic liberties, rampant racism, etc. I nearly punched my monitor just from reading this vile garbage.
So how did Free Republic react to this story breaking out? They're recommending their readers flood the Vancouver Sun and other affiliated papers with hate mail and threatening phone calls.
Is this what the conservative movement is really about? Is their dislike for Obama so deep and rich that they're taking to referring to his daughters as whores?
Surely Free Republic doesn't represent everyone who's of a conservative nature, but it's incumbent upon those who are conservatives to loudly and strongly reject this hatred, not just from Free Republic, but from the pundits (and we all know who they are) who claim to speak on behalf of both conservatives and the Republican Party.