WE ARE OPEN - SEPTEMBER - THE SIXTH EXTINCTION: AN UNNATURAL HISTORY

[Vincent]

G wrote: "Vincent wrote: "Chapter five comments

The Sixth Extinction – Chapter 5 – pgs. 92 – 110 – Welcome to the Anthropocene

I think/hope am beginning to see a tying together of the content of the book c..."

This is a reply to G and Bentley and all

(view spoiler)[It is absolutely true (I think) that the coming real necessary action will mostly be necessary from the industrially and standard of living developing nations. The Chinese and Indians begin to have environmental problems and, I think, if we do not take the actions we can the ability to motivate them to act will be that much more difficult. As we are all past Bill McGibbons 350 ppm of CO2 and since methane is competing with CO2 it is clear to me that we will fail - but the question is how badly. If we try nothing then shame on us and by the way then we need will succeed (and success is and will be, as always in all parts of life, a moving target - plus G .... hmmm...... be careful about being "too old" I am likely too old too but maybe those of us who have taken while the taking was good (before environmental considerations were so apparent) have the time (if you are retired as I am - since end April) and enough prosperity to do your part (hide spoiler)]

[Kathy]

Chapter 5

Sorry, I seem to be falling behind. (view spoiler)[I love the author's story-telling style with how she presents each facet to the problem. It is interesting how a new geological time period may be added to represent mankind's changes to the planet. Can't say I am proud of this achievement. I am learning a lot about the planet that I didn't know. It is truly fascinating . . . but . . . I guess the only problem I have so far with the book, and it may not be a fair criticism because it may be addressed later in the book or it may be outside of the scope of the book, is what does the author feel should be done to reverse these extinctions. Do we raise taxes on gas, finance a mass transist system across the country like we did with our highway system, outlaw plastic diapers? How do 7 billion people not affect the ecology of this planet? Just like with the nesting turtle article, how can the swarm of humanity not affect other species? I have a feeling the price that has to be paid to diminish our impact on other species is going to be incredibly painful -- not that we shouldn't try, but this may be why a lot of people ignore the problem.

On a brighter note, have you heard about the prizzly? Some are saying that polar bears may become extinct in 20 years. However, a new species called the prizzly, a cross between a polar bear and a grizzly bear has been discovered. In 2006, the occurrence of this hybrid was confirmed by testing the DNA of a strange-looking bear that had been shot near Sachs Harbour, Northwest Territories on Banks Island in the Canadian Arctic. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kathy - Chapter 5
You're not behind. ;-)

(view spoiler)[So far as I have read, Kolbert has not offered any specific thoughts on solutions. I agree, I think that so many people ignore the issue because it's easier and cheaper to ignore. We've become a society of convenience and to change ways would be more than some people want to consider. The more we start to change, the easier it will become.

I am curious to see what Kolbert presents (if at all) as possible solutions/action plans for the future. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vincent wrote: "G wrote: "Vincent wrote: "Chapter five comments

The Sixth Extinction – Chapter 5 – pgs. 92 – 110 – Welcome to the Anthropocene

I think/hope am beginning to see a tying together of the content of ..."

Good response Vincent

[Teri]

It may. It was the closest thing to a rebuttal I could find, but he seems to be contradicting himself.

Dey wrote: "Teri wrote: "Vincent - Chapter 6

I found this article you may want to peruse:

'We're F'd': Methane Plumes Seep From Frozen Ocean Floors
By Brian Stallard Aug 05, 2014 12:52 PM EDT

http://www.nat..."

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Teri wrote: "Kathy - Chapter 5
You're not behind. ;-)

So far as I have read, Kolbert has not offered any specific thoughts on solutions. I agree, I think that so many people ignore the issue because it's eas..."

I think she is journalistically documenting what is happening so that she is raising the level of awareness - I think the solutions she is leaving to the scientists.

[Teri]

I'm glad you like them!

Dey wrote: "Teri wrote: "Chapter 7 images

Guadalupe Mountain Coral Fossils

"

You find the best images to post Teri! Thanks. -:)"

[G]

Chapter 4 (view spoiler)[ I find it interesting that the proof for the Alvarez theory of cataclysmic mass extinction first comes from the geologic evidence left behind by nuclear testing. It would not have been possible to prove the extent of the asteroid impact without a similar, albeit man made, event. (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "Teri wrote: "Kathy - Chapter 5
You're not behind. ;-)

So far as I have read, Kolbert has not offered any specific thoughts on solutions. I agree, I think that so many people ignore the issue bec..."

(view spoiler)[So I have to agree - and don't think I need a spoiler warning here - that laying out or illustrating a problem is far different than proposing a solution.

Also laying out is displaying facts.

Solutions, before the are implemented and work, are always rightly subject to doubt and discussion.

Presenting existing situations with "possible" solutions gives the content of the book a validity that it might lose if a "debatable" solution is presented.

Changed my mind - will use spoiler (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Teri wrote: "I'm glad you like them!

Dey wrote: "Teri wrote: "Chapter 7 images

Guadalupe Mountain Coral Fossils

"

You find the best images to post Teri! Thanks. -:)""

yes really good - thanks

[Teri]

G wrote: " Chapter 4 [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I had not considered that, but very true. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Very fair observation, Vincent. I do agree with you about that.

Vincent wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Teri wrote: "Kathy - Chapter 5
"

[Dey]

Helga wrote: "I agree, it is incumbent on the US to be the leader to do what we can and hope other countries will follow suit. However, the Pope who is in the US today and is addressing Congress over climate cha..."

Helga, Hear hear! The bossy talkers (Republicans), will do just about anything to obfuscate and obliterate.

[Dey]

General question:
How do you quickly locate this discussion board? When I log in to GR I have to click all over the place to finally get here. Anybody have an easy one click way in?

Thank you

[Teri]

Yes, actually - there may be one way that will be helpful for you. I am assuming you are on a desktop (if mobile, then this won't help. :-D). When you log in and see your "home page" you should see two tabs in the center frame. Updates and Discussions. If you click on Discussions you will have the options to view by groups, books or both. When I tab to groups, I see my most active groups and the most recently updated discussions under each. You can also click to expand and see a few more discussions. Hopefully, this thread will stay active for a couple of more weeks and will show up there. It does not appear that you can "pin" anything to stay there, so it will be a bit of luck to find a given thread there.

It's not a perfect scenario, but hopefully it will be there near the top while we're still in active discussions.

Hope that helps!

Dey wrote: "General question:
How do you quickly locate this discussion board? When I log in to GR I have to click all over the place to finally get here. Anybody have an easy one click way in?

Thank you"

[Vincent]

Dey wrote: "Helga wrote: "I agree, it is incumbent on the US to be the leader to do what we can and hope other countries will follow suit. However, the Pope who is in the US today and is addressing Congress ov..."

Not fair to paint all Republicans with the same brush - even all conservatives - I am pretty conservative - I believe in balanced budgets and healthy financial statements and healthy environments.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I am glad but unfortunately everybody on that stage for the Republican debate voted for this:

Obama and Climate Change: The Real Story

The president has said the right things about climate change – and has taken some positive steps. But we're drilling for more oil and digging up more carbon than ever

By Bill McKibben December 17, 2013

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/...

Source: Rolling Stone

[Teri]

Indeed. Climate change affects us all, regardless of politics.

Here's a couple of articles on his visit and discussion of climate change to Congress and President Obama.

The New York Times

US News and World Report


Pope Francis speaks alongside President Barack Obama during an arrival ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House on Wednesday. US News and World Report

[Teri]

Hi everyone! Great discussions again this week. We have a few more days to discuss chapters 5-7, then we'll begin our discussions of chapters 8-10 on Monday. Happy reading!

[Dey]

G wrote: " Chapter 4 [spoilers removed]"

Yes indeed G. That's a very good point. Glad there'e a test ban treaty in effect. Even though, this still seems to be happening...

[Dey]

Reply to Vincent
Vincent wrote: "Dey wrote: "Helga wrote: "I agree, it is incumbent on the US to be the leader to do what we can and hope other countries will follow suit. However, the Pope who is in the US today and is addressing..."

Apologies Vincent. My statement was a hasty, broad generalization. I will steer clear of statements about party politics in the future. Way too easy to fall into that trap. ;-)

[G]

I just heard about this today. Rapid evolution due to environment changes. Very interesting about the interrelations between the environment, bees, and the flowers they feed on. Because bees are no longer feeding from specific species because of reduced numbers of the target flowers, they may speed up the extinction of those same flowers.
http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-ani...

[Vincent]

Bentley wrote: "I am glad but unfortunately everybody on that stage for the Republican debate voted for this:

Obama and Climate Change: The Real Story

The president has said the right things about climate change..."

Yes but this president has been an abysmal disappointment -

He has failed - even in his second term - to really protect our planet

What is that old expression - "talk's cheap"

Sorry to vent my disappointment

He is a young guy and will have to face his daughters -

[Vincent]

Dey wrote: "Reply to Vincent
Vincent wrote: "Dey wrote: "Helga wrote: "I agree, it is incumbent on the US to be the leader to do what we can and hope other countries will follow suit. However, the Pope who is ..."

Hi Dey

Thanks

I am not a Republican - actually a somewhat progressive registered Democrat (more power in primaries in New York) and Bernie Sanders is the only Pres runner this year I have given money to or spent any time for....................... But all Democrats are not good and all Republicans not bad and I just don't like to put people into boxes other have built

I liked Ike, Gerry Ford, George Pataki was really good for the environment in NY State

Sorry - off any soapbox

[Teri]

Very interesting! I had no idea there were so many species of bees.

[Marc]

Ah, I'm late to this book, starting it now!

[Teri]

Welcome to the discussion, Marc. It's never too late to join.

[Dey]

Bentley wrote: "I am glad but unfortunately everybody on that stage for the Republican debate voted for this:

Obama and Climate Change: The Real Story

The president has said the right things about climate change..."

Cutting back or putting the brakes on oil and coal burning is gonna be a very slow stop; kinda like Fred Flintstone putting his feet down to slow his flintmobile to a stop. I hope we have enough runway left before there is a crash.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Good comments all guys and I sense this too Dey but something has to be done and done soon and I think it is going to be painful.

Make sure to try to focus the comments more on the book than the politics - I am fine about those discussions and am thick skinned but remember that others might not be.

But if you get into the kitchen - make sure you can stand the heat and always remain civil.

Best motto is to try to stay with the book. But remember we love a good civil debate here - Anything to do with the book since this is a single thread discussion is in spoiler html to not ruin it for the person coming to the thread after you.

Any questions on how to do anything check the beginning of the thread - messages 2 and 3 I believe.

And we are fine with debate but remember somebody might disagree with you and that is OK too if it is civil and respectful

[Teri]

Summaries for Chapters VIII, IX, X

We're back on land and into the forests and the trees. Our discussion this week focuses on global warming and the mass extinctions of trees, birds, bugs, and bats.

(view spoiler)[
Chapter VIII - The Forest and the Trees

Kolbert focuses this chapter on global warming. According to Kolbert, global warming not only affects cold climates like the North and South Pole, but every area including the tropics. Kolbert uses the Amazon in this chapter to discuss latitudinal diversity gradients (LDG). Kolbert follows a group of scientist who regularly check the changes of temperatures along points on a ridge in Manú National Park and how the changes in temperatures over the years affect the flora and fauna in the area. Question: What are your thoughts on how well, or not, the ecological communities of species will be able to tolerate the disruptive changes of their climates?


Active Cusco and Manú National Park

Chapter IX - Islands on Dry Land

This chapter focuses on patch dynamics and how everything in life is interconnected. Using the forest fragments in the Brazilian Amazon area of Manaus, as her example, Kolbert discusses how fragmenting land areas can affect the number of species in an area. One small change in an ecological area can cause a domino effect. Her example shows us that when army ants are unable to thrive in an area, not only do we lose that species, but we lose the white-plummed antbird Question: 4. What other dependencies in nature can you note?


Army ants on the move

Chapter X - The New Pangaea

Kolbert details the concern of the loss of bats due to white-nose syndrome. In the US and Canada, bats are dying off rapidly due to the spread of Geomyces, a fungus that they are not able to combat, that eventually eats through their flesh. The fungus has spread from bat species to bat species as they interact with each other and move from area to area. Floral and fauna are being redistributed from area to area around the world, causing a virtual Pangaea to take place.Question: Have you considered how easily it is to move a species from place to place and the effects on the interaction between species?


Bats infected with white-nose syndrome

(hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

Chapter VIII
Answer to Question: What are your thoughts on how well, or not, the ecological communities of species will be able to tolerate the disruptive changes of their climates?

(view spoiler)[Some species that can move quickly toward more hospitable climes will have a better chance to tolerate the disruptive changes. Those that are slow movers or cannot relocate fast enough like the Ilex trees in Silman's Manú forest plots will be in danger of dying off. And some species that move may find that they cannot survive in the new environment because food sources change, etc.

Using the "universal dispersal" scenario, discussed in this chapter, that if averages of temperature change and mobility of species are plugged in, the conclusion according to Chris Thomas of U of York would be that 24 percent of all species are now headed toward extinction.

(hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Dey wrote: "Chapter VIII
Answer to Question: What are your thoughts on how well, or not, the ecological communities of species will be able to tolerate the disruptive changes of their climates?

Some species..."

I agree with your response. (view spoiler)[ Natural Selection is at play where the preservation of favored or the strongest species will succeed. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Comments on Chapter VIII

(view spoiler)[Definitely survival of the fittest. The concern in modern times vs. previous eras is that there are more, harsher factors/forces for species to combat. I'd like to think, that as species evolve over time their ability to combat these things grow as well. (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

I don't think this is a spoiler, since AFAIK, the book never really talks of methane, and I saw a couple of posts on methane (from the sea), but while it is true that Methane is a much worse greenhouse gas than CO2 (25 times worse), but on average, a CH4 molecule stays in the atmosphere only 12 years, while CO2 lasts much longer (some say 100+ years, some say it's much much longer).

http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghg...

The link below is somewhat a spoiler, (view spoiler)[
since it discusses carbon absorption by oceans, but it is kinda scary article from nature... http://www.nature.com/climate/2008/08...
(hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

As to the Stewart Brand link that Teri mentioned (that Aeon link), (view spoiler)[ I get the feeling his sentiment is, hey, if you can't evolve or move, too bad so sad, bye bye. Of course, I disagree with him, especially since for ocean acidification, where are you gonna move if the coral reefs all die. I am glad that we (as in humans) can try to change our behavior, the controlled fishing to allow certain species to start coming back, or the exterminating of rats on particular islands, but at least for rat extermination, that would be a non-stop battle, as each ship and plane that docks/lands on the island is another opportunity for rats to be re-introduced. I won't be surprised to see another rat/fungi invasive species in later chapter, as there are numerous cases of invasive species reducing biological diversity in all kinds of environments, lakes, rivers, forests, etc.. I'll just say I've lost some respect for Mr. Brand, I don't think he's fully thought out what he's saying and it's consequences.
(hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

And I recall someone asking about the author's thoughts on solutions. In order to solve a problem, it helps to know how the problem came about. (view spoiler)[ now we know about the fungi killing many frogs/toads, perhaps someone will find a better way of killing this particular fungus other than bleach, and how to find out how it's traveling to different continents, and perhaps then how to disinfect whatever the vector is.

Other problems, wow, much is about CO2 (ocean acidification, greenhouse gas, not sure how the heck to pull it out of the atmosphere). But I do know China is at least now making a move towards cap/trade. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/en...

and http://www.bloomberg.com/news/article...
(hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

Marc wrote: "And I recall someone asking about the author's thoughts on solutions. In order to solve a problem, it helps to know how the problem came about. now we know about the fungi killing many frogs/toa..."

Hi Marc. Those are interesting posts. Here is one way to start the clean up maybe: (view spoiler)[Capturing Carbon from the Air http://www.technologyreview.com/featu...
I am not posting this because I think we should keep using our skies as dumpsites for carbon emissions. I just think this is a possible long shot solution to keep our runaway pollutant dumping in check. (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

Cool! (view spoiler)[ I was wondering if such technologies exists!
I saw an article about issues only with the business model, which sadly does rear it's ugly head (hello, survival of humans at stake... uh, whose gonna pay for our survival? I hear crickets chirping... http://globalthermostat.com/wp-conten...
(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Very cool articles Dey and Marc - (view spoiler)[I agree Dey we need to do clean up in a number of ways including being better global citizens ourselves - but I think this technology might be able to keep some of this in check while the countries of the world ramp up and become more about saving our planet and the human race. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Extremely interesting. Thanks for posting this.

Marc wrote: "I don't think this is a spoiler, since AFAIK, the book never really talks of methane, and I saw a couple of posts on methane (from the sea), but while it is true that Methane is a much worse greenh..."

[Teri]

I'll echo what Bentley said. (view spoiler)[This really is a global problem and those of us in the US need to take note of what other countries are stepping up and doing. Articles like these on the CO2 clean up at least gives us some hope for long term survival. (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

Chapters 9-10
(view spoiler)[
The survival of the fittest is an interesting question, especially when asking fittest of what? I recall reading somewhere, talk about local maximums and 'fitness landscapes'. THe idea that while an organism might be extremely well fit for this particular environment, it is not really the fittest overall, but rather brittle in the sense that, what happens if the environment changes? Kolbert touched on this very topic many times throughout the various chapters, species that were great at surviving until x happened, like the meteor wiping out the ammonites, or rats feasting on an island's native fauna, the great auk surviving so well until man showed up, etc. A local maximum where a species is the fittest until that maximum disappears or is knocked off and finds itself no longer the fittest in the new environment. That whole new pangaea idea was an eyeopener to me, I never thought of that before, but yeah, it makes total sense! (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Marc - Chapter 10

(view spoiler)[I thought that chapter 10 was very enlightening. I had never considered the full effects of moving a species, even a simple tropical plant, from one place to another. Not only is that item/species affected, but the environment you took it from to the environment you put it in. Everything is interconnected and ecosystems can change by even the minutest displacement. Very eyeopening indeed.

It's not even moving species from place to place. I kept thinking back to history lessons of Europeans coming to America and giving blankets to Native Indians that had been infected with diseases. Even non-living things can have living things (fungus, disease, etc.) that can off-balance ecosystems). (hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

I just saw this pop up on Good Reads:

Everything is possible. The impossible just takes longer. ~ Dan Brown

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Apropos Dey

[Helga]

Marc, that's a really great article.
We really need to do something globally. Methane is produced from our lifestock as well so this is also an area of concern and solutions are being looked at to reduce methane emissions.

http://extension.psu.edu/animals/dair...

http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agricu...

[Teri]

I like that saying!

Don't forget your citation. ;-)

Dan Brown

Dey wrote: "I just saw this pop up on Good Reads:

Everything is possible. The impossible just takes longer. ~ Dan Brown"

[Teri]

You guys are such a great group. Thanks for the added articles on reducing methane emissions, Helga.

[Vincent]

I am falling a bit behind but I am at at the Gore Climate Reality Project training and I thought I would note that today in one of our sessions Elizabeth Kolbert participated, with Andrew Friedman, Chris Hayes, Vanessa Hauc and Al Gore in a panel on Media in the Climate Change situation.

So just this little comment as an excuse - no - reason - for my tardy participation.

[Dey]

Vincent wrote: "I am falling a bit behind but I am at at the Gore Climate Reality Project training and I thought I would note that today in one of our sessions Elizabeth Kolbert participated, with Andrew Friedman,..."

What a fantastic and amazing place to be. Pretty sure Bentley will cut you a break ... Pls ask Elizabeth why she didn't throw in a section on cow burps. (methane from livestock)