WE ARE OPEN - SEPTEMBER - THE SIXTH EXTINCTION: AN UNNATURAL HISTORY

[Vincent]

Kathy wrote: "Hi all, I finally got a copy of the book from the Georgia Library system. As I told Bentley earlier, when I asked our local librarian to find a copy for me she was horrified. "Isn't that an unnat..."

In 2009 my wife and I were traveling in England - in a conversation with some Brits it was mentioned that this was the 200th anniversary of the birth of Lincoln one of our icons - the response we got was that for the Brits it was the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin - born on the same day.

Back in the States visiting a decades long customer in Alabama who had never mentioned religion - church maybe but not religion - this came up in conversation (discussion Lincoln in Alabama with a white person might have been risky?) I was politely told referring to Darwin and with no aggression "we don't believe in that down here".

So not disagreeing with Kathy I just think there are different truths for some people and I would be curious as to the age of the librarian.

Sorry to go off the topic of the book here.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Understood Vincent - this country has some elements which are difficult to fathom. I think I get where you are coming from with the age of the librarian - I would be interested to but you might be horrified that it was a young person.

[G]

Vincent, I have life long friends who moved to Alabama from Massachusetts about 30 years ago. There are things they just do not discuss with their neighbors, and to be honest, I can see a little 'philosophy creep' changing their conversations (not on this topic, thankfully). It is scary.

[Teri]

Reply to Kathy on Chapter One

(view spoiler)[I hadn't really caught that about the author possibly contributing to the parasite movement issue. Point well taken. It also reminded me how easily that can happen and the issues with the early Europeans coming to North American and trading blankets with Native American, causing them to be sick. How easy it still is today (Ebola) to infect others due to travel. (hide spoiler)]

Kathy wrote: "Hi all, I finally got a copy of the book from the Georgia Library system. As I told Bentley earlier, when I asked our local librarian to find a copy for me she was horrified. "Isn't that an unnat..."

[G]

Reply to Kathy on the parasite issue. I was in the UK when one of the mad cow disease crises occurred. Yes, it was self reported, but anyone who travelled near a farm, any farm, had to 'cleanse' their feet - ground detritus being one of the carriers - going in and out of possibly infected areas. I hope the author had to follow a similar regimen. But we cannot escape it. When someone sneezes near me, it could be fatal for me. So, unless we bleach the world, or live in hermetically sealed bubbles, there is little we can do. I am grateful to the author for reporting the problems more extensively.

[Kathy]

Vincent, the librarian is in her late 30s much younger than I would think for being so judgmental. Not that you become judgmental with age, but she has access to a lot of outside influences and opinions which tends to broaden one's horizon. A high majority of our elderly had to work at an early age and quit school in 5th grade. Not sure why 5th grade seems to be such a popular cutoff point, but it is. I was talking with an elderly gentleman yesterday, and he told me that he started working full time on a farm at the age of 9. Since family and church is so influential in the rural South, most opinions are passed down through the generations. People tend to vote how their pastor tells them to. I guess I was lucky because my father is from the South and my mother is from the North so I got exposed to both ways of thinking even though I have spent most of my life in the South. The thing to remember is that this country is so large that regional differences really influence how people think. I find the hand painted signs nailed to telephone polls proclaiming "REPENT" funny. My friends from the North find them terrifying.

[Helga]

I just got this book and am loving it. The subject matter is dear to my heart as a scientist with a marine science degree. I am enjoying the discussions already and should catch up quickly.

[Teri]

Welcome, Helga! We're glad you could join us. Looking forward to your viewpoint.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Excellent point G. And we understand.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Kathy - quite unsettling

Helga - welcome

[Teri]

Hi everyone! I've posted a couple of entries in the Glossary on Colony Collapse Disorder and The American Mastodon as we start thinking about next week's assignment. I am thoroughly enjoying our conversation and reading everyone's comments and insights.

Next week we'll be amping up the reading at a quicker pace with chapters two - four. Of course the conversation continues even after the official discussion moves on/completes, so you can always join in even if you've started late or have gotten behind.

Keep posting your thoughts on the Prologue and Chapter One. Happy Reading!

[Andra]

Response to Kathy

WELCOME! I must add my chagrin to the story about the librarian. They are essential elements in spreading the word about worthy books. Definitely a form of censorship. I'm glad you persevered.

[Dale]

Fair disclosure, I am not a scientist. As I completed C2, I thought about Cuvier's postulations as opposed to those of Anning and Lamarck. Is that not how scientific knowledge advances, by point and counter-point? Each conversation provides a piece of the answer, yet brings up a new set of questions for investigation.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Quanjun

(view spoiler)[ I think your story is quite striking but probably not that unusual for some parts of the country or maybe even your own - we live in the dark ages in terms of evolution still and that surprises many (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

I just wanted to make a comment about the butterflies and especially the monarchs.

(view spoiler)[ I have been reading a lot about the how the migrating monarch butterflies are also in grave danger like the bees. I read in National Geographic how the colonies in Mexico occupy the smallest area since 1993. There was a 44% drop in 2013 alone since 2012. The monarch population declined by 90% over two decades. The migratory pattern from Canada to Mexico and back is endangered. It is an amazing 3000 mile trip. They state the reasons are due to widespread loss of the milkweed plant the young thrive on, extreme climate fluctuations in North America, drought, wildfires, and deforestation. The monarchs pollinate many foods we eat. Farmers don’t like milkweed and use herbicide on corn and soybeans to kill them. But if milkweed were planted and incorporated on roadsides and in home gardeners and other places, it will help halt the decline. (hide spoiler)]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne...

[Vincent]

Helga wrote: "I just wanted to make a comment about the butterflies and especially the monarchs.

[spoilers removed]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne......"

on the Monarchs as well

(view spoiler)[there is an article on monarchs and pollinators you might find interesting in NRDC’s Summer issue of their newsletter Nature’s Voice – if you go onto their website, nrdc.org, and search for “nature’s voice” you can get to it (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Yes, NRDC is always an advocate and fighting for conservation and environmental issues.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Did anybody see the French ruling against Monsanto?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/frenc...

[Teri]

Yay on that ruling!!! The French were really the ones that first noticed and researched Colony Collapse Disorder with bees.

On the Monarchs

(view spoiler)[I'm in south Texas and am in direct path of their migration. I always smile to see them by the hundreds flying outside my office window. The year before last they were not as prominent but saw a major increase last year. Not sure if that means anything but I hope so. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

A comment about evolution.

(view spoiler)[In Richard Dawkins book, the Greatest Show on Earth, he writes about the history deniers. He gave polls that show Americans deny evolution totally, whether it is guided by God or not, 44%. They believe the world is no more than 10,000 years old and deny that humans evolved from other animals. From the Eurobarometer which sampled European beliefs about scientific matters in 32 countries, Turkey sampled the lowest. The United States not part of this sampling came out just ahead of Turkey. Many schools in the US aren’t allowed to teach evolution without creationism or to teach it at all. He says there is also a large ignorance of science in general. As a research chemist at my university, it saddens me to see how few American students study science. In my department and in many others across the US, we have about 25-30% American students in graduate school. About 70-75% are mostly from Asia and a few from Europe and other countries. An instrument manufacturer that we work with from the Boston area told me recently how difficult it is to get engineers and scientists from this country. I think this is a sad state of affairs for an industrialized modern country. (hide spoiler)]

by Richard Dawkins

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Helga very sad figures indeed

[Helga]

Teri wrote: "Yay on that ruling!!! The French were really the ones that first noticed and researched Colony Collapse Disorder with bees.

On the Monarchs

[spoilers removed]" They must be beautiful to see. I hope they do increase.

[G]

Bentley wrote: "Did anybody see the French ruling against Monsanto?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/frenc..."

Thanks, Bentley. I posted the news item from Reuters on my Facebook timeline.

The main ingredients have not been used in the US for some years, but for economic reasons, not any govt. sanctions or ethical considerations.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You are welcome G and Betty welcome to the discussion. We are glad to have you.

[Kathy]

RESPONSE TO HELGA
Thank you for that review on Richard Dawkin's book. Sounds like a definite must read to me. Two other interesting fiction books that go hand in hand with this subject are Barbara Kingsolver's Flight Behavior (about global climate change affecting the migratory path of the monarch butterfly) and Tracy Chevalier's Remarkable Creatures (a fictionalized interpretation of the life of Mary Anning -- the church's reaction to the idea of evolution and being a female in a male dominated field in the late 1800s). Not having a scientific background, I find myself drawn to sociological issues more than to the nuts and bolts empirical discussions of science.
by Richard Dawkins
by Barbara Kingsolver
by Tracy Chevalier

[Dale]

Thought y'all might like this.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-cultu...

Even though it is not on the extinct list, they are far & few between. When I first moved to the Texas hill country, horned toads and road runners were not uncommon. Now, no road runners can be found. I had a colony of horned toads up until last year. Have not seen one this year.

[Teri]

Hey Dale! I'm in Hill Country too! Helotes and we have a ranch in Uvalde. Lots and lots of road runners there. But I don't see any around our home area. I usually keep up with Texas Monthly, but missed this article. Thanks for posting!

[Teri]

Thanks for these recommendations! I have not read any of them although I have read other books by Kingsolver and Chevalier. These are on my list now.

Thanks for the great citations, too!

Barbara Kingsolver
Tracy Chevalier

Kathy wrote: " RESPONSE TO HELGA
Thank you for that review on Richard Dawkin's book. Sounds like a definite must read to me. Two other interesting fiction books that go hand in hand with this subject are Barba..."

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Kathy - message 30 - the only issue I see with your citations are that the word by is missing in between the book cover and the author's photo - you have to insert that on your own between the html code but you can use the preview button to get it right before your post.

by Richard Dawkins

But you did a darn good job getting all three elements in there out of the gate and thank you for pointing out to our non fiction readers which books are novels.

Good job and you will get the hang of it with the by.

[Dey]

Chapter One

It seems that global warming may be good for something after all.

(view spoiler)[Once frogs have the chytrid fungi, exposure of those infected frogs to high temperatures can cure them. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chytrid... "research") (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Chapter One

(view spoiler)[Very Interesting! But then what does prolonged heat do to frogs? Hopefully there are no issues with that. (hide spoiler)]

Dey wrote: "Chapter One

It seems that global warming may be good for something after all.

[spoilers removed]"

[Shannon]

Helga wrote:
by Richard Dawkins"

I read this book while living in a small rural community. I borrowed it from the new books shelf, and it already had an appropriately hysterical anti-evolutionary pamphlet inserted between the pages. I imagine that they had tried to have it removed and not succeeded. (That library had a very liberal view about removing books from the shelf!)

[Teri]

That's great!

[Teri]

Hi everyone! We've had a great discussion over the last week and a half getting into the beginnings of The Sixth Extinction. This week we carry on to chapters II, III, and IV. Looking forward to everyone's comments and feedback!

Summaries for Chapters II, III, IV

(view spoiler)[
Chapter II - The Mastodon's Molars

In the second chapter, Kolbert covers the work of Georges Culvier (see our glossary for a summary of Culvier) and his views on catastrophism and "the correlation of parts". This chapter focuses on the discovery of fossils from the 1700s through the 1800s including the discovery of the American Mastodon. (see our glossary) His work led to the "discovery of extinction" and evolution in animals. One would expect that he therefore believed in evolution for humans but he emphatically denied the notion. His "correlation of parts" theory poses that the components of an animal are optimized for its particular way of life. Quesion: Were you surprised that Cuvier did not believe in human evolution?



Chapter III - The Original Penguin

This chapter focus' on the Great Auk and a discussion on the findings by geologists Charles Lyell and Charles Darwin. The Great Auk once numbering in the millions in Iceland but as late as 1844, the last known sighting, only few seemed to exist. Kolbert discusses how the auk disappeared due to human caused extinction. Kolbert also review's Darwin theories on evolution and extinction. Question: Charles Darwin believed that extinction is merely a side effect of evolution and that species are annihilated by "slow-acting and still existing causes". Where do humans fall in this theory? Should humans be considered outside of nature or can our species someday fall to extinction?


The Great Auk

Chapter IV - The Luck of the Ammonites

The Ammonites were a marine molusc type animal that may have been squid-like with a shell. Through the study of their fossils, they have been considered perfect adapters. Their extinction can be attributed to the K-Pg event that brought the Cretaceous period to a close. Question: What do you think about the example of the ammonite – they were perfectly adapted to their environment, but the catastrophic effects of the asteroid still resulted in their extinction?


Opalized Craspedodiscus Jurassic Ammonite

Georges Cuvier
Charles Lyell
Charles Darwin (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Chapter 3 remarks

(view spoiler)[Put Text HereThe Sixth Extinction – chapter 3 – The Original Penguin

Pg 57 – I really wondered why anyone woud translate Darwin into Icelandic (I never before really knew there was such a language) in contemporary times given the fluency in English of so many people in low population western countries. I was not surprised the sales in Icelandic were not impressive.

So as I read I wonder if one can call the Auk a victim of the Sixth Extinction or of the instigators of the Sixth Extinction (still not defined for me up to this point in the book)

Pg 63 – now I wonder if I must read Verne’s Journey to the Center of the Earth just to we reasonably well read………….????????????





Page 69 para 3 – so to agree or comment on the difference between “natural” and “man caused” extinctions – do we call the man caused (especially in the second half of the 20th century and this one where men know the coming consequences) endings of a species “exterminations” ?? Who is culpable? All of us – at least in the west? - I personally find it harder to put responsibilities on people struggling to survive but they should bear some.

So just a couple of personal side-comments - Fitzroy, the captaon if the Beagle that Darwin sailed on, was eventually an important figure in Patagonia (Argentine I am pretty sure) and Mount Fitzroy on the border between Argentina and Chile

The Sixth Extinction – chapter 3

Pg 57 – I really wondered why anyone woud translate Darwin into Icelandic (I never before really knew there was such a language) in contemporary times given the fluency in English of so many people in low population western countries. I was not surprised the sales in Icelandic were not impressive.

So as I read I wonder if one can call the Auk a victim of the Sixth Extinction or of the instigators of the Sixth Extinction (still not defined for me up to this point in the book)

Pg 63 – now I wonder if I must read Verne’s Journey to the Center of the Earth just to we reasonably well read………….????????????





Page 69 para 3 – so to agree or comment on the difference between “natural” and “man caused” extinctions – do we call the man caused (especially in the second half of the 20th century and this one where men know the coming consequences) endings of a species “exterminations” ?? Who is culpable? All of us – at least in the west? - I personally find it harder to put responsibilities on people struggling to survive but they should bear some.

So just a couple of personal side-comments - Fitzroy, the captaon if the Beagle that Darwin sailed on, was eventually an important figure in Patagonia (Argentine I am pretty sure) and Mount Fitzroy on the border between Argentina and Chile


It looks like the photo did not copy



pictured above is also the logo for the Patagonia line of clothing for those of you who are curious. This is an amazing part of the world and I had to good fortune to be there earlier this year. This chapter had real significance for me. (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Chapter four remarks

(view spoiler)[The Sixth Extinction – Chapter 4 – The Luck of the Ammonites

What a great family situation – Alvarez family dinner discussions – anyway discussion of the asteroid that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs etc. – they published in 1980 – for me – personal – was I already 36 years old when the asteroid theory of extinction began – I thought it was from earlier in my life………

Pg 77 “the Times Editorial Board decided to weight in on it – this was, per the footnote, the New York Times (as a boy who grew up in NYC in Brooklyn in the 1940s – 1950s) I remember there was, in terms of authority, God (that has likely changed for me) and then the NY Times in terms of powerful credibility and authority. I have asked the Times for the copy of the mentioned editorials and if I get them I will include them.

Pg 78 Phillips thought the three eras represented distinct acts of creation. Does that push Genesis up to 21 days with three 7 days periods of activity divided by eons? (this is supposed to be funny – but I have had some wine so may take it out before it gets into Goodreads)

So in the end we have massive extinctions caused by the accident of a large asteroid hitting the Earth. Of course man is often determined to tame Nature and therefore to exceed its power so maybe we have to do a mass extinction here to establish our authority.

When we see such powerful forces what can/should be our responsibility as a society and as individuals? What part of us gets credit for the Industrial Revolution that has created our current accelerated “extinction” problem and where does the responsibility lie? Certainly more with me than the Syrian who is trying to insure the survival of his family – of his (or her) children. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathy]

Summary of Chapter 2

(view spoiler)[I like the way the historical discussion is dispersed throughout the chapters. Yes, I am surprised about extinction being considered before evolution. Is that a half empty/half full, chicken before the egg dilemma? (hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

Chapter Three
The Great Stuffed Auk
(view spoiler)[Nice summary of chapters Teri. I especially like the photo you chose of the auk. Seems like one of the stuffed ones? Maybe the one purchased by the Icelandic govt? Last of the species maybe? (hide spoiler)]

[G]

It seems to me that this weeks chapters discuss the evolution of evolution (view spoiler)[ With regard to Teri's question at the end of the summary for chapter 3, I honestly don't see how we can even begin to think we are outside of nature. Everything we do has unforeseen results. We are just one part of the global ecosystem, and while we have not been done low by large organisms, the rise and evolution of the small organism (bacteria, viruses, fungi) is just beginning. The question is can we keep up (evolve) well enough to fight them off (hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

In Answer to Teri's question on Ch 2
(view spoiler)[It does surprise me that he did not believe in human evolution. But nobody did back then and most everyone was super ignorant except for the few that had special intuitive abilities. Even Thomas Jefferson was ignorant about this. Cuvier's position at The Museum of Natural History put him in the midst of fossils of every type and time and he certainly had the opportunity to see through this. He saw extinction on a grand scale yes, but he denied evolution or transformisme which is the term that his contemporary Lamarck coined for transformation of species. He (Lamarck) thought that environment brought about changes. As Cuvier said, he (Lamarck) thought that "ducks by dint of diving became pikes." Cuvier proved extinction but he dismissed transformisme; having no idea how new organisms could appear. As it says on page 43: His interest, after all, was not in the origin of species but in their demise. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Vincent - Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[I would say the Auk is a victim but could be swayed otherwise. Why do you think it could be an instigator?

I really need to read Jules Verne as well. Don't forget your citation! ;-)

I don't like the word extermination, but that is a personal preference because it is a word that I tend to connect to holocaust. I think the current "Sixth Extinction" will be a both man caused and natural. We all have some culpability, some more (some companies, no just individuals) than others.

by Jules Verne (hide spoiler)]

Vincent wrote: "Chapter 3 remarks

"

[Teri]

Response to Vincent - Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[Don't make me get my Bible out to do math! ;-)

Love your comments on authority: God and The NY Times! Would love to see those articles if you get them.

I like your thoughts on man exceeding nature in power. I don't know that I think that we have to have a mass extinction to establish authority, but I do think that it is becoming a consequence of man exerting power in its quest to be all powerful. So far, in the end, nature can prove to us that it still has authority: hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes. We can't tame that. I have to think on that some more.

As I mentioned in the last post, I think we all have some responsibility and agree that some hold more than others.

Citation - John Phillips is an author. :-)
John Phillips (no photo)


Vincent wrote: "Chapter four remarks

" (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Kathy - Chapter 2

(view spoiler)[Absolutely! It does seem all interconnected. I do think that Kolbert has done a great job of following the historical along with current/modern findings. (hide spoiler)]

Kathy wrote: "Summary of Chapter 2

[spoilers removed]"

[Teri]

Response to Dey - Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[I found several pictures of what looked like real stuffed Auks. I was surprised at that. Interestingly, while driving long distance for work today, I listened to David Sedaris's Let's Explore Diabetes with Owls where he talks about how private citizens can't get owls stuffed (i.e. taxidermy) or own one in the US due to their being protected but can in other countries. So I was thinking about those photos I found yesterday and wondered what the scoop was on Auks and who had them stuffed. ;-)

by David Sedaris (hide spoiler)]

Dey wrote: "Chapter Three
The Great Stuffed Auk
[spoilers removed]"

[Teri]

Response to G

(view spoiler)[I wholeheartedly agree! I really think that we need to react now, if now is not too late. I fear that we may not be able to keep up! (hide spoiler)]

G wrote: [spoilers removed]"

[Teri]

Response to Dey on Chapter 2

(view spoiler)[Very well said! Great perspective that I had not even considered, that no one had thought of human evolution at that time. (hide spoiler)]

Dey wrote: "In Answer to Teri's question on Ch 2
[spoilers removed]"

[G]

I can tell that a book has engaged me when it pops into my head at random moments. I was making a cup of coffee, when I thought of the book and the phrase 'and the meek shall inherit the earth' came to mind.

[Teri]

G - That is my criteria for a good book. Will I be thinking about it when I've put it away and moved on.

[Vincent]

Teri wrote: "Response to Vincent - Chapter 4

Don't make me get my Bible out to do math! ;-)

Love your comments on authority: God and The NY Times! Would love to see those articles if you get them.

I like y..."

Didn't get a reply yet from NYT - I will try to follow up with a phone call.

[Teri]

Hi Everyone! I've been traveling and just getting home. Hope you all are getting through chapters II-IV. I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts/comments and look forward to hearing more.

Next week we'll be moving on to chapter V, VI, and VII.

Have there been any surprises in the information you have read so far?